AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Aspen Amplifiers => Topic started by: LM on 5 Sep 2009, 04:05 am
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Well, I was silly enough this week to take home Hugh's freshly completed demo 2009 Soraya CB105 and run it in my system (see my details) for 3 days. Stupid, stupid, stupid boy! This amp should come with a label "WARNING; addictive, listening too long may create dependence on this product". Even worse though, it is not practical for Hugh to upgrade an older amp as so many new parts are involved it's a new amp at the end anyway; even the case and heat sinks are different let alone the new power supply and amp modules themselves. So after the demo unit was returned and discussions with my wife completed, I realized that a second label was also needed "DANGER extended use may cause bank accounts to be rapidly depleted". :duh:
I'll leave the technical stuff and specification changes for Hugh to describe but I can certainly attempt to document why I thought the new version was a must have. Firstly, I should emphasize that until I heard the new beast, I was perfectly happy with the old Soraya and loved the existing clean, clear, effortless sound. Secondly, I still have the GK1 Platinum rather than the improved GK2 (Hawk) in my system so there still remains room for alternative and perhaps greater Aspen based improvement. In fact the overall sound impression of the new amp is strikingly similar to the old and we are probably talking about a few percentage points or so difference at most. Nevertheless, it was some quite specific areas of improvement that stood out to me and really got me hooked.
I believe that Hugh has apparently been working on minimizing and/or optimizing distortion as somewhat of a priority. As a result, the difference is mainly that of improved clarity, detail and drive, conferring an amazing presence and refinement. This is what I loved most though I'm sure others might opt for the warmer settings that I understand that Hugh can provide as options with this circuit.
Within the first few minutes of listening, I identified four specific areas of improvement I could readily hear even with only a few hours up on the amp. They were (not necessarily in order of importance): :D :D :D :D
1. Increased effective base extension. I can now more readily distinguish the lowest 20 to 30hz tones that my speakers are capable of. This fuller "way down deep" performance really fills out the base and makes listening a quite visceral experience.
2. More mid and upper base detail and speed. For example the hit of stick on a drum skin now has a much increased impact or snap. The punch from these combined base improvements really drives and underpins the music cleanly and beautifully in my system.
3. Greater mid range presence. The old clich? that the singer is in the room with me has never been truer. Crystal clear and quite 3D.
4. Treble refinement. Cymbals for example present as super clean, strong and really shimmer. All treble is delicate, detailed and seems to extend hugely. No obvious harshness.
Negatives? No, none that I can find though I must admit that the increased base presence was so unusual that it felt a bit much at first. However, it soon became evident that base was clean, tight and the FR accurate.
In summary then, the soundstage for new Soraya purchasers is a little wider, higher and deeper than before. Separation, detail, layering and imaging are excellent and PRAT must be considered first class. Base is magnificent and overall presence and the three dimensionality of the stage image is simply outstanding. As incremental improvements go, this is really a bit of a stunner and I can't see me personally needing to go beyond this amp however better the 150W amp might be. What else can I say but have a listen folks however you can manage it. Do remember the warning labels though. :nono:
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HI Lyn,
Many thanks for a very nice review, and from where I stand a most accurate assessment of the 2009 update Soraya. I think you've nailed it.....
Many will want to know Lyn's system - it's a good one, too. Vandersteen Signature 3A transmission line speakers, which stand fully five feet tall; Arcam CD player, not sure of the model, but a pricey one; and of course a platinum upgraded GK1 preamp. He also has a recently rebuilt turntable, a Denon high output MC cartridge, and a Cambridge audio RIAA MM preamp.
The room has a combination of carpet, soft furnishings and timber framed, leadlight windows; he lives in a beautiful Californian bungalow with a lot of oiled timber. The room is not overly large, though fairly deep, and the speakers are about six feet apart, with the listening position and speakers forming a near equilateral triangle.
Thanks again, Lyn, great review!
Hugh
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Thanks for the thanks Hugh but I'm pretty much just stating for the forum what I heard and felt. It's going to be fascinating to hear to what degree others who borrow the amp hear the same as me. I feel there was probably some more to discover and know there were a few people lined up to listen or I would still have it!!!! :nono:
Question though. Whilst I probably noticed the other 3 points first, the strongest and most lasting impression has come from the 2nd point, the speed and punch of the new design. As a non-technician, would it be correct to say this amp is faster? aa
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Thanks Lyn!!
Yes, you are 100% correct, it's faster...... the input stage is running twice the current and consequently the slew rate measures almost twice as fast, around 24V/uS according to simulations done in comparison with the older model.
This is ameliorated with a low pass filter, to stop RFI. You should not have too high a slew rate for this reason!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Lyn,
Glad to see you unknowignly re-affirm that Hugh and I are far from deaf yet!. Its nice reading your review, can't find anything to disagree with and its very well put in writing. If you have a few "hours" Hugh could probably explain to you the process of coming to this design, :wink:, but in short form I think goes to show the possibilities for improvement "still" at this state in SS audio. The 150w has the same sonic character, but with a further level of refinement with a different Output Stage to accomadate the drive capability for 150w 8R naturally. Very glad to see the first of hopefully many more to come in good reviews, it makes the hard yards of the sometimes subtlly intense process all the more worthwhile to see this and in this day and age one of the few amplifiers that are really truly hands on from start to finish of the design.. Id think for Hugh the biggest compliment that could ever be paid to his designs are the "I cant stop listening to it" comments, thats what the stuff we call music should be about!..
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Hugh has already explained some of the conceptual development background and effort you have both put in while he was bench testing the prototype before handing it over to me. I had heard the quite amazing cobbled together 'breadboard' prototype previously which was what was making me so excited to be able to take a real 100W amp home. I think some of the detail went over my head although I did manage to understand the important basic changes. Sort of like reading up on a new model Aston Martin, Porsche or Ferrari although none of the reading quite prepares you for the reality of the test drive. :thumb:
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Hi Lyn,
Any idea if the amp is fully run in? :roll: Maybe a bit more juice is still hidden somewhere. aa But it is still a great review.
I will put in my review when I get my paws on it. :thumb:
BTW Hugh, the option to "warm" the amp sound is very interesting. :scratch: Mine will be set to which setting? Very cold and hot? :lol:
KK
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Any idea if the amp is fully run in?
Hi KK, probably not but it may be a slightly unusual build as I understood Hugh put it together from some pre-existing components. I'm trying to remember exactly what Hugh said when he was testing it but for example, the power supply was from the earlier build Soraya while the rest of the circuits I presume were new - brand new caps etc. Hugh will have to comment on this but the whole build had not had any settling time when I heard it if this makes a difference.
Actually, I can't wait to get my hands on the one that I have ordered either but Hugh has quite a few orders on the books apparently. I even tried to bribe him with coffee and chocolate but still will be at least 2 weeks before he can start apparently. No queue jumping - I'm sure it would be quite a stern frown if I really suggested such a thing. Bit frustrating though as I will not be able to report any long term impressions of a settled in amp beyond what I have said previously, till delivered. :)
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Hi KK,
Lyn is on the money - all amp components brand new, but power supply (UFSR diodes, Nichicon KGs) from a previous model Soraya, fully run in. Input caps were run in Sonicaps, chosen for transparency.
I would expect the amp to sound a bit smoother after run in, as the BG NX caps are used on the bias network and the Vbe multiplier and they do take time to bed down. Same could be said of the UCC HF caps on the rail and front end decoupler networks.
Gotta get back to the workshop! :wink:
Hugh
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Hmm, I wouldn't mind one of these amps to show off at our next Queensland Audio Club meeting. Some of the lads (and one lass!) have some outrageously expensive components, I have seen systems worth more my my house, which don't even sound that good, but sure look impressive. I would love to have such a relatively cheap amp like the Soyara "Stradivarius MKII" that would blow all this stuff into the weeds and demonstrate what a terribly sophisticated chap I am!
There is a wonderful Arabic saying "that a poor man's children is his treasure". I therefore offer my two ratbag teenager sons with truly prodigious skills of eating, farting, fighting between themselves over issues that don't matter (even to them) and making a mess (their bedrooms look like a war zone), to the value of one of these amps. Somehow I don't think there will be any takers! :wink:
Ian
PS They do actually clean up their bedrooms, about once or twice a year whenever they are about to entertain a prospective girlfriend. I'm serious, I have seen such a thing with my own eyes, once the girlfriend has gone they settle back into being grubs again. :lol:
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I would love to have such a relatively cheap amp like the Soyara "Stradivarius MKII" that would blow all this stuff into the weeds and demonstrate what a terribly sophisticated chap I am!
Ian,
Interesting you should have such thoughts about value that seem to mimic mine as well as a similar desire to show good kit that you have recognized to the world. :thumb:
When I posted initially, I almost felt as if I was somehow trying to take credit for Hugh and Colin's work as the review could read as an almost 'how smart am I for recognizing the quality' sort of comment. Nevertheless I did eventually hit the 'return' button and am now glad I did. I really do wish that more people could soon hear this amp and make their own decision as to its worth and it not just be 'my opinion'.
As to the worth side, I really feel that this is always going to be a difficult area for Aspen. Everyone, me included, would love an amp the quality of a Soraya to be $1K. When I look inside though, I see more than that amount in top quality components alone let alone the IP, R&D and assembly costs etc. etc. To have an absolute state of the art 100W amp hand built for around the $5K mark is actually rather amazing and I see it as perhaps the absolute peak of the value for money for performance curve for a complete new item IMHO. The problem with people is that if I for example had spent 20+K on an amp as many do, I'd have to continue to spout about how superior it sounded so I didn't feel like a goose when someone finally let me hear their Soraya and I had to realise I hadn't researched too well after all. :scratch:
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Hi Lyn
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I have seen amps that cost huge amounts of money, and this was largely for status purposes rather than sonics. Each amp would cost more than my car, (which is not that hard to do), but the quality of the sonics and, aside from the aesthetics of the fancy panels, everything else was pretty average. Yes, all the notes were there but there was no soul to the music. For me it is a bit like being in an art gallery and looking at a picture which makes you yawn while all around you people think up really long words to describe something that is just flat and ultimately boring.
On the few times I have seen inside such components it was almost laughable to see such poor work and average industrial grade parts etc. There was no cutting edge design, perhaps a fancy looking power supply, which was standard fare but one had HUGE wires, which were just galvanised car battery wires and connectors to emphasise it's hugeness but it then had only one filter capacitor and things like this are common in what you would think are leading edge designs from the marketing.
I am a DIY type of guy (very, very slow I must admit) but the great advantage of this is that it gives you at least some insights into design, quality of parts and the work involved to achieve the design heights that Hugh has achieved.
I am comfortable in awarding Hugh the rather grandiose title of "Audio Timelord", or perhaps the audio equivalent of "Dickens" for his work and his literacy in his communication skills of all things audio, from the technical to his descriptive gems regarding the sonics.
I hope I haven't sounded too pompous in my little rant! :lol:
Ian
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Aw, shucks Ian, I won't be able to fit my head through the door!! :oops:
Lest anyone think I'm too big for my boots, let me relate a gem of frustration I went through this afternoon.
I've built a number of Soraya modules, ready for mounting onto heatsinks. The operation is fiddly, as all output devices, drivers, associated mica washers and lots of spacers have to be fitted in one operation. It normally causes some cussing (a delightful word not used in Oz, but elegant and apt), and much gnashing of teeth.
I'd picked up the negative rail parts, fitted them, and then went to fit the positive rail parts. Oops, fitted a 5200 instead of a 1943, OK, do it again....... Then assembled it all, held my mouth just so, matched it up to the heatsink, and screwed it all together.
Wunderbar!! All complete!
Then hook up to the testbench supply, and set up bias and offset.
No dice. -40V of offset, couldn't set the bias either.
I spent two hours on this, only to find that I'd inadvertently picked up a defective A1837 driver, with grievous short from base to collector, which was holding the output at the rail (I use a variac to apply voltage gradually at birth, just to be sure nothing self-immolates).
Replaced the driver, reassembled, tidied up biasing and offset, and job done.... nothing damaged, but oh, the angst!!
Morals to remember:
Everything must be assembled at least twice.
All objects on the workbench will inevitably fall to the floor, requiring disciplined late middle-age exercise routines and spectacles ON to retrieve.
Components NOT taken with measured determination from a parts bin are ALWAYS defective.
Bias and offset are never quite what you designed for, or expect.
Faults are always arrived at circuitously, never directly.
Tools required will always be either out of sight, OR out of reach.
Any pleasure at completion is always outgunned by exasperation at how long it took, and how stupid you were during the process.
But, Ian, I admit, I'm a big fan of Dr Who, and I WISH I HAD A SONIC SCREWDRIVER (but it would have to be Class AB!!).
Cheers,
Hugh
PS:
KK, I figured you would want maximum resolution, no? My preferred technique is to warm it up a little with the preamp!
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Hi Hugh,
Yup, max resolution pls. :wink: I will warm it up right at the source (DAC). :thumb:
Thanks.
KK
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I would love to have such a relatively cheap amp like the Soyara "Stradivarius MKII" that would blow all this stuff into the weeds and demonstrate what a terribly sophisticated chap I am!
Ian......I once did much the same thing with a 'mere' Aksa 100N+ at 'another forum' GtG. After listening to some very nice Xindak (very nice), Melody and Shanling amplification technology I gave the room a belt with the Aksa. Source was a Shanling music centre and speakers were the wonderful Aslan Cerys standmounts.
The highly positive reaction was rather personally rewarding.... :icon_lol:
It'd be nice to think that one day I may repeat the experience with a Soraya....but the price of entry (bargain though it may be) is a bridge too far for this simple soul.
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Ah, Sean,
That is a pity....... :bawl:
At least come to visit me when next in Melbourne! I really enjoyed my chat with the intellectual from the bush, and you are welcome here any time to hear the latest products! :duel:
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh
I may be so bold to invite myself to chez Dean, my son is joining the army and will be based in Adelaide after the initial training at Pukapunyal with the 16th RAR Air Defence Regiment, his fiance is pregnant and I am determined to be at the birth.
All of requires means a trip down south which would enable to catch up with some friends, I hope you would not mind me shouting you a cup of coffee and a chat!
Ian
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Ian,
You will be most welcome, any time - and it will be MOI buying the coffee!! :lol:
So you will be a grandfather? Still feeling chipper and spry? :o
16AD Regt, I remember it well, taught a lot of soldiers from that unit in the seventies! He will like Adelaide, it is a beautiful city, with a much more reserved nature than the northern cities and lovely architecture. The city is absolutely filled with churches, some of them very impressive buildings.
Congratulations - no mean achievement!
Hugh
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Hi Hugh
Chipper and spry, yep that's me, I feel far too young to be a grandfather!
As you know I love kids and intend on getting back into the literacy and numeracy tutoring again when a local Aboriginal woman asked me if I would return to school to work with her kids after a chance meeting in a local supermarket. I just wish I could get paid for this work sometimes........which I could then spend on audio parts and kits. When I grow up I want a V Sonics kit!
Ian
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That is a pity....... :bawl:
At least come to visit me when next in Melbourne! I really enjoyed my chat with the intellectual from the bush, and you are welcome here any time to hear the latest products! :duel:
Pity? Yes. But no pity required. A practical decision requires no pity. Should a new price point be possible into the future then a new practical decision can be made :scratch:
Besides I'm still saving up for the Lifeforce...
I may take you up on the invite to the Aspen Playpen in the next little while....if only to talk turkey about an LF100.
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Hugh,
And where, pray tell, is mine? :cry:
You're making me :drool:
Impatiently,
Paul
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Paul
Have you ever tried to use a SONIC SCREWDRIVER, pesky little devils to use, especially inside a phone box in another time dimension. Which sounds like Hugh was in the other day!
I often feel like I'm in another dimension too, although that could be due to all the medication I take. :lol:
Ian
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I think I am a little too close to the designer for my opinion to be considered objective, but I feel I must follow up on some of the comments made about Hugh's new amp. Having heard Hugh's new masterpiece a few days ago, my flabber is still well and truly ghasted. Hugh has outdone himself yet again.
Everything you have heard about the bass on this amp is true. Precise, powerful, and articulate. The other major strength that instantly leaps out is the VERY solid imaging. Ther is no wandering of the stereo image at all. Period.
Don't take my word for it. Cancel all your plans and arrange a listening session.
Ben.
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Hi Ben,
Thank you for your impressions, I have spent the day ghasting flabbers, and I'm exhausted..... :lol:
I now have on order some five Sorayas, and I'm considering moving to the North Pole and hiring elfin helpers. My workshop is even more chaotic than usual! Supermart spoke to me today - he has the audition amp at present - and he feels it raises the bar on all the amps he has heard. He mentioned he would be putting in a post of his impressions, and mentioned 'Way Down Deep', from The Hunter, by Jennifer Warnes, something of a good recording with plenty of visceral bass!
I should add the top end and midrange are pretty good too, with a clarity that everyone remarks upon.
Paul, it's coming!!
Hugh
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I now have on order some five Sorayas, and I'm considering moving to the North Pole and hiring elfin helpers. My workshop is even more chaotic than usual!
Hugh
Hello Hugh
I'm happy for you that the Soraya 2009 are becoming a real success.
I would be curious to see a photo of your workshop ;)
My workshop are a mess and most of my friends garages or workshops are a mess, so it seem to be a men's way of working, exept wen the wife are taking direction of it :)
Bye
Gaetan
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I now have on order some five Sorayas, and I'm considering moving to the North Pole and hiring elfin helpers. My workshop is even more chaotic than usual!
Hugh
Hello Hugh
I'm happy for you that the Soraya 2009 are becoming a real success.
I would be curious to see a photo of your workshop ;)
My workshop are a mess and most of my friends garages or workshops are a mess, so it seem to be a men's way of working, exept wen the wife are taking direction of it :)
Bye
Gaetan
NO, you don't want to see a photo of Hugh's workshop!!!!!!
Ask Marty!
Earlier this year Marty and I cleaned up the listening "salon" with great success.
But the workshop......you never mess with success!!!
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Gaetan,
Suitably chastened, I must agree with Steve. I'm not sure if I'm lucky, but my wife is even more untidy than me, and our house, recently filled with my parents furniture, is groaning under the weight.... Steve and Marty did me a great service, but steadily, inevitably, slowly, the listening room is filling up again. I need to throw things out.... :duh:
I will do a little number on the workshop and take a small photo, which I will insert into a forum post. Mind you, it will be 50 x 80, I don't want people to see my chaotic mess, I really don't. Yesterday I had a visit from Anthony Holton, the owner of Aussieampifiers in Tasmania, and I noticed he didn't say a thing when he saw my workshop, so I'm betting his is pretty messy too...... ah, I feel better already...... :oops:
It is always feast and famine in business, it seems. Not long ago there wasn't much work, now I'm run off my feet. I'm always awed by the way people can sniff out something exceptional and respond quickly; of course this corresponds with the beginning of the recovery from the GFC. However, that said, the latest Soraya is the best amp I've done and I've resolved to sell it for exactly the same price as before.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Gaetan,
Suitably chastened, I must agree with Steve. I'm not sure if I'm lucky, but my wife is even more untidy than me, and our house, recently filled with my parents furniture, is groaning under the weight.... Steve and Marty did me a great service, but steadily, inevitably, slowly, the listening room is filling up again. I need to throw things out.... :duh:
I will do a little number on the workshop and take a small photo, which I will insert into a forum post. Mind you, it will be 50 x 80, I don't want people to see my chaotic mess, I really don't. Yesterday I had a visit from Anthony Holton, the owner of Aussieampifiers in Tasmania, and I noticed he didn't say a thing when he saw my workshop, so I'm betting his is pretty messy too...... ah, I feel better already...... :oops:
It is always feast and famine in business, it seems. Not long ago there wasn't much work, now I'm run off my feet. I'm always awed by the way people can sniff out something exceptional and respond quickly; of course this corresponds with the beginning of the recovery from the GFC. However, that said, the latest Soraya is the best amp I've done and I've resolved to sell it for exactly the same price as before.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hello Hugh
A 50x80 photo will be perfect, I was just currious to see your workshop. If you want to show me a bigger photo just send it to me by email.
Your new Soraya are at a real bargain price, a similar sonic quality commercial amp would cost 5 to 10 times more.
Bye
Gaetan
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Hi Gaetan,
Here's the workbench, with a Soraya under construction:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22137)
The CRO is a Tek 465 storage rated to 100MHz. And here's one of the three walls lined with shelving to hold the stock, which is considerable these days:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22138)
These shots are reasonably sanitised, and do not show the appalling mess. I must follow a careful path as I walk into the workshop, there are many boxes of components on the floor!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hugh,
I hope you don't mind the personal touch but for those who have expressed interest - here are 2 images from your workshop when you started building my original Soraya a few years back. Don't worry, they are reasonably sanitised and there is very little mess evident. Also, I haven't including any showing Robyn having to beat you about the head with her handbag to cajole you into getting started at the time. You can thank me for that later. :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22141) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22142)
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Well, speaking of messy workshops....my "study" where I work is regularly cleaned up, only to lapse into a complete mess within a day or so.
I have a friend whose work area is a two car garage space and the floor space is covered to a depth of at least two feet with bits and pieces of audio junk. In the seven or so years I've known him I have yet to see any of these piles of stuff change at all.
Another good friend is something of a bower bird for tube stuff, speakers, tubes, half finished projects, CD's, records and tubes of every description. The bookcases are full of tubes and then one time I noticed his pantry had no food in it, it was full of rare tubes!
All of which makes me feel positively organised in comparison, mind you I can't swing a cat in my garage for audio junk, and I do mean junk. Friends and relatives keep giving me old components that have died because they mistakenly believe I can fix such junk up. I politely thank them and then immediately throw it into the garage when they leave, then once every six months I take most of it to the tip. Most of this stuff are those really awful plastic all in one stereos that cost around $100 when new and are designed to last precisely two weeks after the warranty period runs out. Sometimes I rip out the transformers if they are any good and I never ceased to be amazed at how poorly these things are made. The PCB's look like someone stood back and threw a box of parts at the PCB. I can only assume that these were made in sweat shop conditions where the poor souls are constantly hounded to install parts as fast as possible in order to keep the margins at a profitable level.
Ian
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Hi All,
The other day I was had the opportunity to hear Hugh's new Soraya CB105 when I delivered the new transmissionline woofer. II must say that I'm thouroughly wooed by Aksa amps. Now after saying that Hugh has built mighty fine amps over the years. Each amp, Life Force, LF100 etc, Soraya and the Maya are all a delight to listen to, each with their individual areas of unchallenged excellence. Now Hugh has masterfully combined the gems into one box. I agree with other comments in this thread about the Soraya CB105 and I can add little. I am sure that the bar has been raised even higher.
Well done Hugh.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Hello Hugh and Lyn
Nice photos, thank for showing it.
Hugh, I know that working on your web site are not your favorite task, since the 2009 Soraya are a new topology, you may need to update you Soraya page in your web site wen you have some times to do it.
Bye
Gaetan
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Hi Gaetan,
Here's the workbench, with a Soraya under construction:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22137)
The CRO is a Tek 465 storage rated to 100MHz. And here's one of the three walls lined with shelving to hold the stock, which is considerable these days:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22138)
These shots are reasonably sanitised, and do not show the appalling mess. I must follow a careful path as I walk into the workshop, there are many boxes of components on the floor!
Cheers,
Hugh
Note the old clothes dryer under the bench. It's been keeping well.
I think it can be arranged for Marty and I to drop by in time for a little tidying up and to put the "salon" back into the listening room. It's much easier for "other" to do the hard stuff. The workshop need not be a white coat lab. Just keep the pathway clear to the bench.
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Hi guys,
I had the chance to listen to the new Soraya with a prototype pre-amp at Hugh's place. Interestingly, the pre-amp have a ballast incorporated into the power supply. :scratch:
Well, here my impression of the Soraya. It has a very accurate reproduction of the music and very good control of the speakers. Allowing me to hear not only changing characteristic as the pre-amp warms up, but also the finer details hidden in the recording.
You can hear which the instruments are closely miked, which part of the drum is struck and the acoustic of the recording venue. :o The imaging and "living space" of each instruments are well positioned and life-like. :thumb:
It is a rare few amps that perform well throughout the whole spectrum. Hence, it plays both majestic classical pieces and bass heavy techno well.
The amp is well built with lots of thoughts put in. Hugh is very generous with using good parts in the amp. The parts are all matched. Heck, even the tracks on the PCB are gold-plated. :o Well worth the price tag. aa
I just can't wait for it to be part of my system. :green:
KK
PS:Hugh was really a nice host.
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I just can't wait for it to be part of my system.
Hi KK,
I know how you feel. :drool: At least your personal impressions show that I wasn't imagining what I was hearing that week or two back. I agree with your comment about orchestral. I didn't say specifically in my original post but I find orchestral pieces as one of the best ways of critically judging a component. If it can present the orchestra as 3D and layered, brass and woodwind accurately and the strings in particular as neither harsh nor soft and fuzzy but clean and sweet, then it's all one can ask. Jazz, vocals, piano and the rest will then just be right.
And you are so right about Hugh as a host.
Cheers, Lyn
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Hi KK
Do you feel that the CDPRO added a lot to the sonics? I am just interested to hear your opinions on the impact of this transport.
I am wondering if the Soyara amp needs to have such a good friend end to take advantage of it's virtues.
Thanks
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I think the transport does affect the overall sonic especially with Soraya. Even though the transport doesn't have as much impact as most people expect. It is because Soraya's resolution. You will be able diff. the icing to the sound due to the lower noise and jitter of the CD pro especially if you are using the I2S.
So in short, it is worth it only if the downstream can allow you to hear the diff. :icon_lol:
Cheers,
KK
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Oh no! It's time for Ms. Soraya 2009 to return to her inventor the fiendish Hugh Manchu. I have reluctantly removed Ms.2009 and reconnected my trusty Ms.2008 back into my system.
What are the differences? Well, as other auditioners have remarked the 2009 bass is deeper, more defined and underpins the music in a tight and appealing way. Detail is increased in a vivid presentation. The noise floor is noticeably lower in this latest model and busy orchestral pieces are easy to follow and enjoy. Last night I listened to "The Planets" from beginning to end and they have never sounded more spooky and ethereal.
Jazz takes on a new level of swing and thwack - percussion is easy to follow and I find myself thinking "Ah yes, that's how it should sound." The Remote Controller"- my wife - has taken to singing along with the latest version and there have been no calls of "Can you turn that down please"
On some recordings where I would normally reach for the volume control I find myself sitting back and enjoying the crescendos.
This amp is tight and tuneful - even when you listen at low gain. Piano solos are hugely enjoyable with a lovely decay and sense of air around the notes. And Ben was dead right about the image - it's rock solid. I'm listening to Andras Schiff performing a Bach solo piece right now and it's riveting stuff.
Enough! I must now return Ms.2009 to Aspen. Locals - do yourself a favour and book in for a listening session.
Oh yes - I've forgotten to mention that "BEN" the Bass Extender has now landed at Hugh's place but that's a subject for another day.
Cheers,
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Piano solos are hugely enjoyable with a lovely decay and sense of air around the notes. I'm listening to Andras Schiff performing a Bach solo piece right now and it's riveting stuff.
Cheers,
Oh, Mart ... do you mean you've put your trusty LP12 into play (with this lovely decay on piano pieces)? I mean, you surely can't be getting it from CD? :P
Regards,
Andy
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My trusty LP12 continues to gather dust Andy.
As I said to Hugh today "The old Soraya sounds like it's playing a CD by Andras Schiff. The new Soraya sounds like........Andras Schiff."
Cheers,
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Thanks KK, Lyn, Laurie, Ben and Marty, for excellent reviews. This weekend I will be showing off the new Soraya to several more people, but it's becoming apparent that there is a marriage in heaven with the VSonics, which demonstrate incredible clarity and layering. The new Bass ENhancer, which we call BEN, resplendent with the prefix BIG, caps it off for a monumental acoustic experience, working on a kit version of this speaker right now!!
In the last three days I've built, mounted, set up and tested another six modules - all are accounted for, and more to come. Another six lie mostly completed; I've ordered more heatsinks!
Clem, Peter, Paul, Matt, Dennis, Ola, Marty - all are awaiting product, and I'm pedalling as fast as I can, but quite enjoying it! It is spring, after all......
Cheers,
Hugh
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Time for a quick 'impressions' update as I picked up my latest 2009 spec Soraya yesterday afternoon and had it up and running in my system about 7PM last night. It had achieved about an hour or so of running earlier at Hugh's as it was checked out after assembly.
I had the feeling that Hugh would have liked to give it a bit more time in his system for bedding all the caps etc in and so he could have a bit more time to evaluate the new 'choked' power supply which isn't yet in his demo model but customers rights exerted, I tucked the amp securely under my arm and scurried away. Hugh just has to understand that this amp is now mine, mine, mine!!!
It's still a little early to give a full evaluation report. Even as we listened through the bewitching hour (yep, over 5 hours straight with dinner quickly squeezed in somewhere), the amp still only had a bare 6 hours up but it had settled down beautifully and already I'd have to say it is simply an amazing performer. My wife who rarely listens for more than an hour or so at a time stayed up with me and kept asking for her favourite CDs to be played - to heck with my standard evaluation tracks apparently. :duh:
So updated impressions then! Best to start with my comments at the first post of this thread as a basis and then say there appeared to be an even greater layering, lack of noise and sheer clarity than I remember from then. Attack and decay of notes is just so precise and the imaging and involvement simply the best I?ve ever experienced. Drums, vocals and treble detail are superb. PRAT is brilliant. The only real physical difference between the demo amp and mine is the upgraded power supply and Hugh would need to comment on how much difference that may have made. In summary, this is a humdinger of an amp - totally musical. It would not surprise me if someone with far more hifi experience than me pronounced it as one of the best out there. It is incredibly clean and articulate without in any way falling into the classic SS etched or tizzy mould. Combined with a valve pre such as my GK1, it gives a system that is just a nice touch on the warm side of neutral but oh so realistic. My wife kept commenting on the how good the drums, cymbals and guitars sounded as the Travelling Wilburys and Ross Wilson amongst others, played away.
To finish up with a few minor points then, there is virtually no speaker thump at switch on, I have chosen green 'leds' rather than the previous blue and the revised internal layout is a sheer joy to behold. If any friends from around Melbourne want to have a listen, please get in touch. If the phone happens to ring between tracks, I just might hear it. :thumb:
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Argh Lyn,
You beat me in getting the amp 1st.. :uzi: Anyway nice review, now you are making me more impatient. :evil: What input caps did you get him to install for you? Silver/oil? :wink:
KK
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You beat me in getting the amp 1st.. :uzi:
Bit hard to reply when one is riddled aa
You'll be pleased to know that I had to go home with a temporary (old) face plate (till the new supplies come in shortly) as your faceplates had been put safely aside and spoken for so there was no delay in having yours ready for your agreed shipment date. It appeared that much of your order had been done. After all, I only live a 10 or so minute drive away from Aspen. You are going to absolutely love these amps. I really suspect the new power supply provides sonic enhancements over what you heard at Hughs'.
I have the Sonicap platinum rather than the Mundorf as I am a bit of a detail freak. Many others (I think Hugh included) prefer the slightly different (warmer??) silver oils.
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Lyn,
Right now I live vicariously through your re-assessment of the Soraya, im currently in the midst of another move right now and the prototypes are tucked away which is a first in about 3 years!. I agree though, from the moment I rigged Hugh's idea up and tested it out all I could think of is the winner on Aspens hands, a little honing and voila!, an incredible start towards 2010 I believe. Im swamped with work nowadays, good thing in many respects economy considered and a giant lull makes you appreciate work when its there, but bit by bit getting the Maya4 boards filled and ready to be heatsinked, the only difference from the Soraya2009 being the output stage ;). Getting those drums right, as a drummer is VERY important, and imaging to get lost in always a plus. Travelling Wilbury's recordings have always surprised me, off hand at first they arent striking as "Audiophile" esque, but Ive noticed they are damn hard to get sounding right at playback on some equipment prior as there are many nuances, yet the recording is quite dry. Many thanks for your literal refresher!>
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Moving - yuk! Had more than enough of that myself and feels so good to be settled.
Yep, drums should be good and are rarely well reproduced. I hated the early synthetic drum kit with its microsecond correct repeat accuracy and the 40 or is it 80hz dub dub is worse. The slight variations in rhythm and from how and where the skin is hit is integral to the musical expression IMO. I'm sure some people don't stop to realise that there are multiple parts to even a simple drum beat. For example, the sound when the stick hits and remains in contact with the skin is different to the resonance and decay after it has lost skin contact. And there is a lot more artistry than that which a drummer can apply to vary the sound.
Same, same discussion re piano 'strikes' and guitar etc string plucks and so on. It's just great to have an amp that does this do well.
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Hi Lyn & Colin.
I agree that drums should sound like drums but also should feel like drums, particularly the kick drum etc.
Recently, I had the experience of being present when a recording engineer was testing kick drum mikes. Mike 1 was doofie and we were not impressed at all. Mike 2 was good but did not record much slam of the initial impact and decay. Mike 3 (very expensive) recorded the drum in a very life like manner with slam, impact and decay etc, a good all rounder. I took the opportunity to tune BEN (the woofer) to be able to reproduce the kick drum and electric bass guitar in conjunction with the VSonics to reproduce a seamless live experience.
The prototype of BEN is powered by a 600W hotted up ( better quality components used) plate amp. Along with the recording engineer we decided that the kick drum sounded and felt like the real thing when A/B tested. We had the drum in the listening room and there was not any thing between them except that the foot pedal on the live drum squeaked. For realism the squeek was recorded to along with the sound of the drum squirming and jumping around on the floor with every impact.
At live levels the cone of the woofer's driver was moving about 20mm with each impact. Piano and electric bass guitar also come across in a life like manner too, exhibiting all the instruments slam and decay of the note etc. And that sounded good with the Maya powering the VSonics.
I can't wait for a 2009 Soraya CB105 which will improve the listening experience to truly "real" levels.
Now that good kick drum mike selection has challenged the recording engineer, who also does his own mastering, to record snare drums and cymbals so that the rivets in the cymbals can be heard shimmering to a stop. Piano and electric bass guitar also sound real particularly in slam and decay of each note.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Time for a quick 'impressions' update as I picked up my latest 2009 spec Soraya yesterday afternoon and had it up and running in my system about 7PM last night. It had achieved about an hour or so of running earlier at Hugh's as it was checked out after assembly.
I had the feeling that Hugh would have liked to give it a bit more time in his system for bedding all the caps etc in and so he could have a bit more time to evaluate the new 'choked' power supply which isn't yet in his demo model but customers rights exerted, I tucked the amp securely under my arm and scurried away. Hugh just has to understand that this amp is now mine, mine, mine!!!
It's still a little early to give a full evaluation report. Even as we listened through the bewitching hour (yep, over 5 hours straight with dinner quickly squeezed in somewhere), the amp still only had a bare 6 hours up but it had settled down beautifully and already I'd have to say it is simply an amazing performer. My wife who rarely listens for more than an hour or so at a time stayed up with me and kept asking for her favourite CDs to be played - to heck with my standard evaluation tracks apparently. :duh:
So updated impressions then! Best to start with my comments at the first post of this thread as a basis and then say there appeared to be an even greater layering, lack of noise and sheer clarity than I remember from then. Attack and decay of notes is just so precise and the imaging and involvement simply the best I?ve ever experienced. Drums, vocals and treble detail are superb. PRAT is brilliant. The only real physical difference between the demo amp and mine is the upgraded power supply and Hugh would need to comment on how much difference that may have made. In summary, this is a humdinger of an amp - totally musical. It would not surprise me if someone with far more hifi experience than me pronounced it as one of the best out there. It is incredibly clean and articulate without in any way falling into the classic SS etched or tizzy mould. Combined with a valve pre such as my GK1, it gives a system that is just a nice touch on the warm side of neutral but oh so realistic. My wife kept commenting on the how good the drums, cymbals and guitars sounded as the Travelling Wilburys and Ross Wilson amongst others, played away.
To finish up with a few minor points then, there is virtually no speaker thump at switch on, I have chosen green 'leds' rather than the previous blue and the revised internal layout is a sheer joy to behold. If any friends from around Melbourne want to have a listen, please get in touch. If the phone happens to ring between tracks, I just might hear it. :thumb:
Ditto!
I had the opportunity this weekend to catch up with Hugh and listen to his current demo system, including the prototype new pre-amp and the Soraya CB105 2009, the Vsonics and BEN.
Simply stunning. I have quoted Lyn's feedback above as I found myself nodding at every comment as I read it. All I can add is that bass detail and damping is truly superb, the system is quieter than previous models with greater transparency and instruments-in-the-room-ness. My comment to Hugh was that it is a "sharper scalpel" but with no sense of edginess or over emphasis. Leading edges are super quick and sharp and decays are the best I've heard.
The first couple of tracks were evidently from CD's not that well recorded and the vocals sounded a little coarse and sibilant. For a few minutes I wondered what all the fuss was about and thought my savings were safe. Then, we put on some better recorded material and I slid down into the chair in total submission. Even during busy passages played loud, every instrument maintained its own space and was beautifully delineated and articulated ... quite impressive from 2-way speakers (+ BEN).
In a desperate attempt not to sound like an Aspen fanboy, if I had to be super critical, the only aspect of the performance less than super impressive was front to back layering. However, I believe this is more due to Hugh's room than the system/speakers and I would love to repeat the session with some absorptive room treatment on the wall behind the component rack.
It was a very enjoyable day, catching up with Hugh and AndyR for some listening and coffee, then lunching with Hugh and Sri after even more listening, then back to Hugh's for yet more listening.
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Thanks guys,
These are very good reports on the sound of the new Soraya and I appreciate the care taken with choosing the right words. Sometimes I feel describing sound with words is like attempting to describe the difference between red and blue to a blind man!! It ain't easy..... :duh:
Darren, by 9am the next day that Soraya you heard had received a new power supply, and this addition greatly enhanced an already stunning presentation. Strange isn't it? The sound just gets better and better, and the soundfield too is a bit deeper. This is the production supply.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22348)
This power supply is based around common mode chokes, and delivers very clean power at all output currents. The amp is quiet as a church mouse, yet with the power and drive of a grisly bear!
I took it to a Melbourne Audio Club group yesterday and we all had a good listen. WOW!! Very, very nice.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Darren,
I like your scalpel analogy. Yes I found the amp to display a very delicate yet incisive nature when needed but also great heft when that was necessary as well. Quite an unusual (and great) balance IMO. And Hugh is right; choosing words can be hard particularly without inadvertently sounding like an Aspen PR man. In my case, the difficulty is in trying to best express the complete wholeness and musicality it imparts to my system.
By the way, mine has now accumulated about 15/20 hrs all up and there were a few subtle changes on the way though to about 10 hrs. Not sure what components may have contributed as power supply and amp modules were all brand new whereas Hugh has only just put the new power supply in the one you heard apparently. The only sibilance I noticed was within the first 10/20 mins of its life as it first warmed up. More in retrospect as it has smoothed out beautifully now, there was perhaps a slight stridency in the treble for maybe the first 5 or 6 hours and perhaps a very subtle further softening after that. I'm extremely happy with my sound stage and as I said earlier, if any Melbourne friends want a listen at other than Hugh's place, let's know. 8)
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Thanks Lyn,
Carefully considered words...... but no one is commenting!!
My feeling is that three qualities distinguish this amp from previous models. Higher resolution, far more prominent, articulate bass, and quieter background. Like all these high end qualities, these are purported to be only marginal improvements, but the problem is that once heard, you can't go back, audiopathy being what it is, the disease is inexorable, and takes us ever higher in our expectations.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Thanks Lyn,
Carefully considered words...... but no one is commenting!!
My feeling is that three qualities distinguish this amp from previous models. Higher resolution, far more prominent, articulate bass, and quieter background. Like all these high end qualities, these are purported to be only marginal improvements, but the problem is that once heard, you can't go back, audiopathy being what it is, the disease is inexorable, and takes us ever higher in our expectations.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi \Hugh,
Boy go away for less than a year, or maybe a bit more, let's see it was the \lifeforce that was beginning to be discussed. \now two generations later, and \i think you price this new amp out at about 5\k, that should be about right for a top flight amp.
\now, what's the difference between the previous preamp til this one. Any idea of price for the new preamp?
\just curious, what are you using for interconnects? Same for the power cord.
\now, \hugh, as a blind man \i can personally tell you Red and Blue don't mean a thing. They are just words to me, with possible concepts.
. Sure, Red can be hot, and it can also be rather dramatic in its appearance. Blue on the other hand is sorta like the sky. When you think of blue skies, you look out there and see those wisby clouds, a nice say, 75 degrees F, with just a touch of a soft breeze blowing. \i have only concepts oof what color is. \it's almost like trying to explain to a two dimentional man what three dimentions is all about. Can't be done real well. \it's just one of those things you have to see and til then totally understand.
Ray Bronk
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Hi Ray,
Thanks for coming back to us!! Now, answers......
Now, what's the difference between the previous preamp til this one. Any idea of price for the new preamp?
More resolution, stronger, more dynamic presentation (much stronger bass in particular) more natural sound field, rather less tube coloration but still a slight warmth, better depth and width to the image.
just curious, what are you using for interconnects? Same for the power cord.
I have some I made myself, using multiple silver wire strands with Neutron connectors.
Power cord is a heavy duty 15A standard IEC, nothing fancy. I try to get good results with commonly available interconnects and power cords, so that the 'house' sound can be replicated anywhere!
Hugh, as a blind man I can personally tell you Red and Blue don't mean a thing. They are just words to me, with possible concepts. Sure, Red can be hot, and it can also be rather dramatic in its appearance. Blue on the other hand is sorta like the sky. When you think of blue skies, you look out there and see those wisby clouds, a nice say, 75 degrees F, with just a touch of a soft breeze blowing. I have only concepts of what color is. it's almost like trying to explain to a two dimentional man what three dimentions is all about.
I think it must be the same with language. As English speakers, we can only speculate on the pungency and vitality of a thorough reprimand in Spanish, a wonderful, colorful language of great emotional intensity, but if we don't actually speak Spanish, then the impact is lost. We really only miss something if we had it once before, but it has since been lost - and in this sense, good audio remains an elusive target, since all of us remember a 'sound' at one time in our lives, doubtless romanticised by febrile memory, and we seek to reclaim it!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Ray,
Thanks for coming back to us!! Now, answers......
Now, what's the difference between the previous preamp til this one. Any idea of price for the new preamp?
More resolution, stronger, more dynamic presentation (much stronger bass in particular) more natural sound field, rather less tube coloration but still a slight warmth, better depth and width to the image.
just curious, what are you using for interconnects? Same for the power cord.
I have some I made myself, using multiple silver wire strands with Neutron connectors.
Power cord is a heavy duty 15A standard IEC, nothing fancy. I try to get good results with commonly available interconnects and power cords, so that the 'house' sound can be replicated anywhere!
Hugh, as a blind man I can personally tell you Red and Blue don't mean a thing. They are just words to me, with possible concepts. Sure, Red can be hot, and it can also be rather dramatic in its appearance. Blue on the other hand is sorta like the sky. When you think of blue skies, you look out there and see those wisby clouds, a nice say, 75 degrees F, with just a touch of a soft breeze blowing. I have only concepts of what color is. it's almost like trying to explain to a two dimentional man what three dimentions is all about.
I think it must be the same with language. As English speakers, we can only speculate on the pungency and vitality of a thorough reprimand in Spanish, a wonderful, colorful language of great emotional intensity, but if we don't actually speak Spanish, then the impact is lost. We really only miss something if we had it once before, but it has since been lost - and in this sense, good audio remains an elusive target, since all of us remember a 'sound' at one time in our lives, doubtless romanticised by febrile memory, and we seek to reclaim it!
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi Hugh,
There's no way \i would attempt the kits, so \i'd rather end up buying the commercial versions. We are fortunate on the circle to have such good audio vendors producing audio stuff for inexpensive (relatively speaking) prices for what you get. Seems to me that a 5K amp should sound like your reviews. the preamp, another 3K or so, and no doubt it is also probably be World class. Now, ... just gotta match this up with the appropriate speeks, and some good sources to complimendthe equipment to bring out the sound, and wahla, Audio Heaven!
Now, Hugh, when's the integrated amplifier gonna come out?
Ray Bronk
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Wow, Ray, integrated amp!! You gotta be kidding!! :lol:
Market reality: Integrated amps are regarded as less than purist, mid-fi. Particularly as the Japanese first brought them out and now the Chinese are doing same.
Therefore, the quality is not to the same standard.
For Aspen, an Integrated would cost more to make, yet it would have to sell for less....... that makes no sense at all. Strictly, integrated amps would have to be machine assembled with cheaper components.
My first love is power amps, my second preamps. I do the preamps under suffrance, they are a bitch to build, lots of switching, digital remotes, chasing down proper earthing. But it is clearly necessary to offer both for the obvious reason they must match well.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Wow, Ray, integrated amp!! You gotta be kidding!! :lol:
Market reality: Integrated amps are regarded as less than purist, mid-fi. Particularly as the Japanese first brought them out and now the Chinese are doing same.
Therefore, the quality is not to the same standard.
For Aspen, an Integrated would cost more to make, yet it would have to sell for less....... that makes no sense at all. Strictly, integrated amps would have to be machine assembled with cheaper components.
My first love is power amps, my second preamps. I do the preamps under suffrance, they are a bitch to build, lots of switching, digital remotes, chasing down proper earthing. But it is clearly necessary to offer both for the obvious reason they must match well.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi Hugh,
In some respects you are correct. There are however a handful of companies out there that would I think somewhat disagree with you. we have vendors right here in Audio Circle that make Integrated amps. Perhaps, somewhat reduced power, but the quality of the components would be as good as there separate counterparts.
Your stuff on the other hand, yep, that would be hard to put in to any form of integration.
Back in the mid .70's, \Mitsubichi had a 100 watt amp with a preamp that literally bolted on to the front, to make an integrated amplifier. Unfortunately, the preamp wasn't very good. The amp on the other hand competed rather nicely compared to the GAS Son of Ampzilla.
Dynalab, their receiver is basically three components in one, a decent AM FM tuner, a preamp, and a power amp.
Ray Bronk
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Hmmm,
OK, let's keep an open mind.....
Ray, how can I make an integrated amplifier cheaply, and attract the attention of serious high end buyers, and still make a profit?
Remember, I'm a hand assembly guy, and my products reflect this care with matching, build quality, and durability. It's a tough ask..... and the answer almost mandates Chinese assembly.
Cheers,
Hugh
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...how can I make an integrated amplifier cheaply, and attract the attention of serious high end buyers, and still make a profit?
The only way that I can see you doing that is to offer a built product based on either the LF or the redundant 100N+ with a bolt-on, bought in pre-assembled pre-amp module (possibly a passive?). Could be as straightforward as one of Rod Elliot's or Greg Ball's designs or as fancy as Wellborne's remote controlled attenuator. But even then you'd still be looking at an integrated amp that'd have to touch US$3500 to make the effort financially worthwhile for the manufacturer.
That'd all be good until one of the Interweb's 'independent' reviewers lifts the hood to find the sum of its parts is less than bespoke and says so....and no matter how good it sounds...if it looks like a cynical marketing exercise with less than sparkling manufacturer commitment to the product....then the result could be akin to using a freighter anchor on a short chain to restrain a kayak in deep water.
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Hi All,
Theres no doubt that there are many fine integrateds out there, but at the end of they day its biggest caveat is the ability to suit a system to ones tastes. Integrateds are suited to cleanliness of setup, they sure do make putting together a system on a budget in some cases easier, cheaper, and many wives out there approve of the minimalist aspect associated with an integrated ;). From a technical standpoint many support keeping the pre stages physically futher away from the power delivery aspect to avoid potential contamination at the small signal level, but technical aspects aside it does limit the "tweakability" aspect as at mid-market level we are often level with the op-amp rolling option. Adding a Tube preamp into the same box as a SS amplifier would be even tougher(though not impossible), as Hugh veers towards the Tube pre stages and SS amplification this would probablly be the most likely combination for best sonics, then the other factors pop in, Phono stage, no Phono stage?, then the real fun begins with noise interference from PS, etc. Others do it successfully agreed, but then of course economical factors kick in and as Hugh runs on a small scale and self builds this would be a gigantic load to take on both physically and financially..Ive learned largely over the last two years working with Hugh on ideas that the company is passion fueled more than anything else, an asset to us who love audio, but not the pocketbooks even at the high to some price that an amplifier sells for.
Hope this helps a little ;)
Colin
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Hi
We must also remember that Hugh caters for a niche market, many of us already have a preamp of one sort or another, and even then there are diverse opinions on just what preamp is best, some like passives and others insist on the tube/solid state approach.
It would be silly of Hugh to try and cover every approach out there, that's what Marantz et al are there for. Most people in this section of the market want a preamp and a separate amp combination and see this set up as best so they can choose whichever type they feel is best for them, or can upgrade to a new component when it suits them. I personally think there would be very few who would choose an intergrated over separates and as such it would not be viable for Hugh to spend a heap of development time on something few would buy anyway.
Ian
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Well the new girl has about 30 to 35 hours up now and I'm pleased to report she is quite settled in and is now an integral part of the family. I'm getting to know her better and better and with reflection, I have the impression that there has been a small and gradual smoothing out of sound over the period to date though there has been minimal obvious change since the first 5 to 10 hrs or so.
So what have I listened to over the period? A lot of classical to get a feel for layering and stage size, a fair bit of Rock to see how well it handles complex and often compressed recordings, some 'electronica' to hear non standard instrumentation and my own particular favorites including all flavors of female voice and jazz.
The best way to summarise the 2009 Soraya is that it just does everything superbly well - this amp is not limited by musical genre IMO. I won't be boring and describe everything I have listened to but there were a few things that provided a pleasant surprise. Rock for example. Rather than my existing impression of most rock CDs being somewhat discordant and harsh, many such as Wolfmother actually appear quite well recorded and now sound very good indeed. Roger Waters and Pink Floyd are more ethereal than ever and Goldfrapp and other electronic music come across as very clean, precise and highly listenable.
I had earlier commented on the general clarity, detail and drive giving great presence and refinement and I now think of the amp as both vivid and vital. Oddly, the increased base extension, so obvious at first, I hardly notice now with gained familiarity - it's as if the Soraya simply provides the performance anyone would naturally expect of any amp down low.
I have also realised that the mid and upper base detail and speed I had previously noted, in reality extends across the whole frequency spectrum. It certainly remains more instantly noticeable down low but can be clearly heard in the initial instant of a string pluck or piano note be they high or low. So whilst I've previously mentioned how well voice and drums are handled, what has rather blown me away during extended listening has been the superb presentation of piano and guitar. There is nearly always a small but realistic imparting of impact energy to be sensed or heard and this punchy underpinning along with the increased detail and clarity really drives the musical reality of the notes. Tommy Emmanuel and Sam See guitar and Keith Jarrett piano recordings for example are now simply exquisite to listen to and I'd forgotten how good Sky really is.
There are still no negatives IMO. 99 out of a hundred CDs and LPs have really come out of their shell and I'm having a ball listening. I had thought early on that perhaps the increased resolution might reduce the previous warmth somewhat and/or make poorly recorded material unlistenable, but I've been pleasantly surprised on both counts. No the new presentation is not warm or coloured of itself but it is simply crystal clear and neutral. I leave the warming to my GK1. There is none of that etched or over sharp feeling that some SS amps have - rather like when one overuses the sharpness control on a TV. There is just a clean, incisive and natural leading edge of notes and superb decay as well. Any muddiness, resonance, reverb etc. one hears is simply from the source. As to poor material, I've rather unexpectedly found that the new clarity quite often actually helps but with one exception though, where bad compression artifacts such as clipping are engineered into the recording, the faithful reproduction of same can be just too much of the wrong information.
In summary then, all is very well indeed in my listening room. KK and others, you are in for a treat. :drool:
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Thank you Lyn,
A very good summation; to those reading, it must seem too good to be true..... the truth is, this amp is something quite exceptional, particularly in the deep bass, where it absolutely rocks. The only area I feel BEN, the Bass ENhancer, is really needed is on Bach's Toccata and Fugue, on all other music, even heavy rock, the VSonics seem entirely up to the task, and I'm constantly amazed at how much bass and scale these two way 8" speakers can deliver.
I've just finished two CB105s for despatch today and these too are absolute corkers.
I appreciate all the support here. For those in Melbourne, come and have a listen.....
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh
Is it possible that your new power supply could be advantageous with other amp modules, or are the chokes etc only suitable for the big Soyara? Would it work with smaller transformers or does it only work in supplying the required voltages and current for the Soyara?
Thanks,
Ian
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Yes, Ian,
It would improve most amps, I'm quite sure.
Nice shot of KK's 2009 Soraya:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22609)
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh
It looks sensational, something to aim for in the future I think. It is a very tube like sort of power supply with the use of chokes, not often seen in most run of the mill solid state amps. I understand that chokes store and release energy in a more controlled manner and can ramp up the regulation a bit extra too, great expression of a good leading edge power supply!
Ian
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I really want one of those! aa
Someday I'll invest in a new amp, and it'll be this one. Until then I'll have to live with my (ever so pretty) LF55's. :wink:
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I really want one of those!
Hi painkiller,
The Soraya is definitely a superb amplifier to aspire to, and I know how good the LF55’s are. Incidentally, whilst there is little I can add to my previous review comments, one thing I can now say about ‘living’ with a Soraya 09 is that even after 4 months, I never cease to get a thrill of anticipation whenever I turn it on. I still feel pleasantly surprised at how great it sounds each time as the first notes flow. :thumb:
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In the past, I've usually gone into great detail about the differences in sound between components and where one surpasses the other. Often writing more than most people would probably care to read. Strangely, upon upgrading from the LifeForce to the Soraya a few months back, I don't feel compelled in the slightest to do this. Instead, I am at peace with the upgrade and simply enjoying real music. Each time I fire up the rig and sit down, I am more readily sucked into the suspension of disbelief as it were. There is simply less 'electronics' between me and the performers, more inner detail and texture from a quieter background, less chaos for the brain to decipher and become fatigued. Just real, live music that doesn't get congested when things start rocking. Oh, and the bass is more powerful, articulate and convincing than the LifeForce too. Mental wrestles over whether you would be better off with a tube amp simply vapourise as you enjoy real music with natural (ie. as heard from unamplified instruments) warmth, body and texture. Nothing unnaturally emphasized and nothing missing, just beautifully balanced music, regardless of genre.
I'm not sure it gets any better than this but, if it does, I am sure I can't afford it ... and I don't care. :eyebrows:
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Thanks Darren,
An enthralling critique - so good, people will be sceptical the Soraya is that good!! :drool: It is the nature of so many of the Aspen reviews, a bouquet I'm proud to earn, but which probably is not always believed.....
I will admit that the last couple of years on DIYaudio I have taken a huge beating from the technocrats, who dismiss sound quality with abandon (human senses are completely unreliable!) as they condemn and ridicule 'the golden ear set'. It seems one must hold forth with tales of enhanced transconductance, lashes of loop gain, and enough poles and zeros to launch aerial combat....
As so often happens in life as we get older, I regret that at University I studied motorcycles and women so convincingly :o, yet flunked my maths..... truly, a profound regret :oops:. It would not have made my amps sound any better had I passed math, possibly they would not be as good as they are, but it sure would have given some pleasure to whop these guys with a few nicely chosen triple integrals!! :duel:
Thanks Darren, you've made my day!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hello Hugh
Your math weekness are your strenght, because with more math you would may have become like John Curl or Bob Cordell and your amps would have sound plain ordinary.
It's hard to have lot of science knowledges and good intuitions in same times, thoses "brains" guys in the diyaudio forum are, for many of them, a bit marrow mind and they will not use some very importants littles details in amps topologies, because maths and sims say that it's not worth it. They will not admit that yours amps are so good sounding because they would need to admit that all those years in universities was not enough to design best musical amps, so they will continu to beat and mock you.
Designing musical amps are much more than maths and sims but those math guys can't accept this simple fact.
Most peoples who want a musical amps don't know which guys made them and they don't know your amps, so they buy tube amps since most transistors amps sound dry and life-less.
Bye
Gaetan
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Yup. The hobby needs more witchcraft.
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Yup. The hobby needs more witchcraft.
No, just more designers prepared to be open minded, try things out that may not make sense in (currently known) theory, and use the same measurement devices to tell them whether something sounds more like the real thing that we use to determine whether we enjoy the real thing in the first place .... ie. our ears.
Given that when I sink into the couch to enjoy a beautiful recording, it is my ears that I use to listen to the music (ie. the point of the whole hobby), you can be damned sure that it is my ears that I will use to make my purchasing decision. And, extrapolating further, I would hope that the designer has used his ears in the design process. If we just follow currently known principles and measurements like lemmings we get nowhere, it is in challenging them that we make progress.
I'll happily enjoy my music while the maths boffins stage mental arguments about why things will never work and lay claims to being the designer of the best amplifier circuit never built. Life is too short.
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I regret that at University I studied motorcycles and women so convincingly
Ah see that’s where you have it wrong Hugh! Grunt when it’s needed and fine touch and sensuality for the rest of the time. Great design principles that show up well in the Soraya ……. So that’s where you got them eh! :thumb:
I'm not sure it gets any better than this but, if it does, I am sure I can't afford it ... and I don't care.
Darren, a great ‘to the point’ review and a good summation. If I hadn’t waffled on so much early in this thread, I would have been pleased to get to the nub of the Soraya’s qualities in such an elegant way. :duh:
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...Grunt when it’s needed and fine touch and sensuality for the rest of the time...
Yep, you sure gotta treat them 'cycles with a fine touch and sensuality :eyebrows:
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If it weren't for those designers w/ math, physics & electronics knowledge, the hobby would not have made significant progress. Relying on the Golden Eared Gurus, who all know what they hear but can't demonstrate it, is a crap shoot. This is not to disparage listening which certainly has it's place.
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Hello
The fact that some designers work with math, physics & electronics knowledge are not a problem, it's more that a lot of them use those knowledge without their ears to design an amp. I know somes who gain a kind of "pleasure" by designing complicate amps because of the technical chalenge and not for the musical result.
Bye
Gaetan
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As so often happens in life as we get older, I regret that at University I studied motorcycles and women so convincingly :o, yet flunked my maths..... truly, a profound regret :oops:. It would not have made my amps sound any better had I passed math, possibly they would not be as good as they are, but it sure would have given some pleasure to whop these guys with a few nicely chosen triple integrals!! :duel:
I was the exact opposite Hugh, loved my math (actually did a degree in math) but was driven to do so well in it I ignored the other stuff you mention. Never regretted it just like you should not. It takes all types. As one guy I went to uni with said (he was returning after failing the first time around) he majored in tiddlywinks previously but would not have missed the experience for anything.
You can always pick it up. Here is a great math book (I have a copy and its terrific):
http://matrixeditions.com/UnifiedApproach3rd.html
Thanks
Bill
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You do need maths for amp design, but it's not onerous.
I'm actually very good with figures, and well able to handle simple calculus and integration.
I can figure all the currents and voltages in an amp in a couple of minutes without benefit of simulators or calculators.
Mr Porzio, do not jump to conclusions because someone is a little self-effacing. Clearly this approach is alien to you, doubtless you are a math exponent with a thousand good sounding amps to your credit...... I use simulation widely as well, and study Bode plots and loop gain graphs with great care. I would challenge you to compute exact and precise lag comp and phase lead, too. A listening test is best here as the final test. Clearly all the aids are very necessary. Your witchcraft comment is a feeble attempt at engineering ridicule, and I would suggest you carefully read up on the Dunning Kruger syndrome. I would also remind you that some of the most complex, math intensive designs sound terrible. Now, can you tell us why this is so?
Finally, have you heard my amps? No, I thought not.....
Notwithstanding, thanks for all the positive comments, guys, much appreciated,
Hugh
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I think that one of Hugh’s shortfalls on forums, even his own, is that he is pretty self-deprecating in the typical Australian manner about his skills and abilities. I hope no-one really thinks that he and his colleagues such as Colin don’t put in the hard yards on painstaking topology, circuit board design, spice simulations and measurement etc. that underpin a truly great design. The Soraya 09 is not the product of a crap shoot. Nothing that sounds this good possibly could be – it’s just that Hugh values the ear above all else to fine tune the end result that takes it far beyond the initial maths only design.
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I think that one of Hugh’s shortfalls on forums, even his own, is that he is pretty self-deprecating in the typical Australian manner about his skills and abilities. I hope no-one really thinks that he and his colleagues such as Colin don’t put in the hard yards on painstaking topology, circuit board design, spice simulations and measurement etc. that underpin a truly great design. The Soraya 09 is not the product of a crap shoot. Nothing that sounds this good possibly could be – it’s just that Hugh values the ear above all else to fine tune the end result that takes it far beyond the initial maths only design.
Hello
I know Hugh and never I would think that Aksa, LF55 and Soraya 09 would be the product of a crap shoot.
I know that wen he talk about his math weekness it's not because of a math ingnorance, it's more because he is quite humble and a bit because of the math maniacs in the others forum who mock him quite often and mostly doubt of his designer knowledge.
Bye
Gaetan
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it's more because he is quite humble
Exactly.
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There are probably as many bad amps designed by simulation as scientific complexity. All generalizations, including this one,.........................
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There are probably as many bad amps designed by simulation as scientific complexity. All generalizations, including this one,...
Which may indicate that most designs, particularly those with a strong engineering bent focussing on low THD, are on the wrong track. Witness the THD wars of the eighties, and later the slew rate wars, which erupted with the advent of the AP1. One conclusion might be that designers, mostly engineering teams, are failing to properly apprehend the actual problem, namely that this is a man/machine interface, and all along, through wilful ignorance of the psychoacoustic issues (aided and abetted by the psychology of numerical appraisal) they are concentrating solely on the machine aspect to the detriment of the musical purpose of the amplifier. And none of this is rocket science, cellphone technology is far more complex.
All of which gives some credence to the 'golden eared set', some of whom have good grounding in math and physics, me included. These guys just want a musical amp which rolls the tear down the cheek.
No more on the matter from me, however. This is a foolish debate, leading nowhere but acrimony.
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Hi guys,
Guess it is time for me to give my intial impression. The Sorayas have been in my setup for the 48hrs of playing.
Overall, there is a better control over the bass, the strings are beautifully and naturally reproduced. You can hear the vibration of each strings when puck or strummed. There is a good layering of the instruments and they have their own individual space. The presentation of the vocal is more laid back when compared with the gaincard.
The gaincard has a slight advantage over clarity but the Soraya adds a more nature tone to presentation.
Well that all for the moment, back to listening.
Cheers,
KK
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Thanks KK,
I'm pleased you like the presentation, we hope to hear of your long term impressions too!!
Again, my apologies for the long delay on those pesky front panels.......
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi guys,
I think enough is said about the Soraya. I have only one phrase: " It is rockingthe house!!!" :icon_twisted: Here are some pix of the amps in my setup.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=30421)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=30422)
:eyebrows:
KK
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Hi KK,
That is a beautiful system, with huge feng shui, looks very neat and elegant! WOW!!
I had Lyn's (LM) Soraya in today, it had blown a fuse, and we compared it to the Maya, the 150W latest.
The differences were actually smaller than we'd suspected. The resolution was almost identical, only the decay of the Maya was slightly longer, but the differences were subtle.
That pleased me very much, because uniform quality is a personal goal, regardless of output power.
Lovely setup, KK. What speakers are those? Interesting cone material, metal?
See you 3-5th June!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
That is good news for me, otherwise I will be bugging you to build me a new one. :lol: Those speakers are my diy Accuton speakers. The cones are ceramics for it's stiffness and lightness. Very reveiling. Couldn't affort their top end models, those drivers are made of "girls best friends". Right diamonds!!! :duh:
Looking forward to catch up with you again, maybe I can meet up with Lyn And Russ too.
Cheers and got to go back to Listerning enjoying the music. 8)
KK
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maybe I can meet up with Lyn And Russ too
For my part, that would be great. Love the silver face plate as an alternative though all my own stereo gear is black.
Yes, nice to know I won't have to change/upgrade tomorrow as well though I have this nagging suspicion about Hugh (and Colin for that matter) that his brain has not decided to call it a day on the Maya final spec just yet and there are still a few refinements lurking around the corner even if he hasn't thought of them yet. Besides, the Soraya is just so darned good as it is that any future Soraya or Maya improvements can't possibly render the current model poor, merely a fraction off the latest Aspen pace.
Regardless, the Maya is a corker though.
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Hi Lyn,
I agree on the Soraya, the quality is very very good, and is a tough one to beat.. With the last couple of years of designs, the bar seems to have been set incredibly high, but thats always a good thing and if anything,it makes you work harder to try and better the design prior. At this stage it seems we get into a territory of not neccessarily better as much as "different", and really getting to the bottom of what gives a great presentation with audio, funny enough, Thd has very little to do with it as Hugh and I have learned, though its distribution does factor in.
There have been a number of changes made on the Maya, another couple of leaps in performance, but at this stage it awaits Hugh's stamp of approval! :thumb: :duh:...
Colin
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Colin,
but at this stage it awaits Hugh's stamp of approval! ...
You can be confident you have that!!!
Warm regards,
Hugh
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Hi guys. I have been reading up on this one. One thing that really caught my attention is the couple of reports so far that the Soraya seems to be able to make music out of not so good recordings. I have a lot of rock and pop in my collection, and yes some of that stuff is brutal on high end systems (sounds good on cars and boom boxes though). However, I have heard some gear make some music of these type of recordings. I mean, there was air, some warmth, good spacing and some life. So, can the Soraya really play in that game? I am interested in this amp, but living in the States, I won't really get a chance to hear it. Systems synergy, room acoustics and other variables aside, anyone know how the Soraya compares to some of the other well know brands such as Conrad Johnson, Ayre, The ModWright KWA 150, Sim Audio, Macintosh, Pass Labs, ect....
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AI
These are good questions, tricky to answer from downunder. Fact is, there are very, very few of the products you mention here, ours is a small market and high end is dying rapidly in Oz with only a few enthusiasts willing to buy such amps, which are up to double the price in AUD once imported (we have high taxes and very big markups).
This has led me more than once to wish I was resident in the US, where such a large market is easily accessed.
I have Soraya's locally, Singapore, and Czech Republic, and a 2007 Soraya in Omaha, but none of the present 2009 configuration in the US. Shipping one to you would cost around $USD220, shipping it back if you failed to buy would be the same, and we are in a quandary!! If I were to appoint a distributor and reseller in the US the price would near on double, and this just adds to the problems. It is expensive to produce, some exceptional quality components inside.
Perhaps a safer option would be for you to consider my upcoming New AKSA, the NAKSA, a module amplifier, 70W per channel, sold fully assembled and tested with a heatsink. This is realtively cheap to ship and represents a much lesser investment risk at $USD705. All you need to get it going is a single 300VA trafo, a case, a couple of binding posts, switch and IEC cable entry module. This amp, while not up to the exalted Soraya standard, is very, very good and does indeed make poor recordings sound good!
Thank you for your interest and goodwill, I hope we can do business. I will be releasing the NAKSA within one month, watch the website.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Thanks for the reply. Omaha, I only live 120 miles from Omaha. That is only an hour and 1/2 drive. Thats nothing! For an investment like an amp, I wouldn't mind at all paying the 220 dollars or so shipping if the product was the right fit and I doubt it would be a deal breaker for a lot of US customers if again, it was something that made their systems sound so good. Well, if anyone has any relative experience with this amp compared to similar priced or even higher prices amps please post. Thanks.
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oh, I forgot to ask, isn't there another amp getting released this year, The Maya. What is this in relation to the Soraya? A new design or more like a Soraya with more power?
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Hi Afterimage,
Maybe I can chip in a little, the Soraya 2009 is a polite but powerful guy. It would sound similar to a gaincard clone(that was what I had) with a good tube pre in the front but with a much better bass control. But mind you, a compressed disc will still sound worse than a well recorded disc. But one of my concert sound engineer friend said that he haven't heard the foo fighter there is nothing left to lose album sound so good on a hifi.
Anyway, (Hugh will kill me for saying this) you can tweak the warmness (2nd harmonics) easily to your taste with 2 resistors. :eyebrows:
Hopes that helped.
Cheers,
KK
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AI,
The Omaha contact is David Ellis, who may have recently moved, so I will email him to respectfully ask if you could have a listen.
The Maya will be my flagship. It has been a long, long gestation together with a Canadian friend. It is a 150W//8R amp with no global feedback, a la Charles Hansen's Ayre. I auditioned one in front of 110 people at the Melbourne Audio Club recently and received standing ovations on Copeland's 'Fanfare for the Common Man' and a Leonard Cohen song. It will also be costly, of course, it's a powerful, large amp and the R&D behind it was stupendous. However, I have none of them out there just yet, as relatively few will be sold, and I'm paranoid about getting it exactly right!!
The Maya, like the Soraya of lesser power, is designed to engage with the music. My essential quest is to have the listener look into the music, become a part of it, and forget the electronics and speakers, in short, a musician's sensibility. Getting the engineering dead right is only the first step; after this the long term tweaking and listening begins. It's a slow, torturous process and focusses as much on the psychoacoustic perceptions of hearing as it does on the distortion artefacts.
Cheers,
Hugh
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AI,
The Omaha contact is David Ellis, who may have recently moved, so I will email him to respectfully ask if you could have a listen.
Dave moved to Minneapolis nearly a year ago now.
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Hi Steve,
Ah, thanks, are you still in touch with him? I will PM him......
How far from Omaha to Minneapolis? At least 500 miles?
Ulp......
Hugh
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I'm in Des Moines. My house is 230 miles from Minneapolis. Not really that far.
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Aha, birthplace of Bill Bryson....!!
I will email David,
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Steve,
Ah, thanks, are you still in touch with him? I will PM him......
How far from Omaha to Minneapolis? At least 500 miles?
Ulp......
Hugh
Dave and I occassionally exchange emails, but it's been awhile now. Dave moved to The Cities last summer. Until he is able to buy a house, currently renting, he is out of audio action, other than listening.
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Hi guys. I have been reading up on this one. One thing that really caught my attention is the couple of reports so far that the Soraya seems to be able to make music out of not so good recordings. I have a lot of rock and pop in my collection, and yes some of that stuff is brutal on high end systems (sounds good on cars and boom boxes though). However, I have heard some gear make some music of these type of recordings. I mean, there was air, some warmth, good spacing and some life. So, can the Soraya really play in that game? I am interested in this amp, but living in the States, I won't really get a chance to hear it. Systems synergy, room acoustics and other variables aside, anyone know how the Soraya compares to some of the other well know brands such as Conrad Johnson, Ayre, The ModWright KWA 150, Sim Audio, Macintosh, Pass Labs, ect....
In regards to how the Soraya compares to other brands at higher or similar price points, the only thing I could find on the net is small thread on Audiogon. A poster, has some Cary amps. He basically said the Soraya gives them a run for the money but it can't quite touch the Cary's in detail and treble extension. He said the Soraya has tighter bass. However, it is not really a fair comparison as the Cary's are 14 thousand dollars. With this limited info, I would say this is a good indicator and a positive for the Soraya.
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Hi Kieran,
Thanks for the post. Does the guy indicate which year? The 2007 or 2009 Soraya? The later one is a big improvement, in fact.
Wonder which Cary? The 805 with the big 845 transmitter tube in SE? I have heard them, they are pretty good amps too.
Cheers,
Hugh
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They were the CAD 211s I believe. The thread is still on the 1st page of the amp section message board. Don't know if it was the older version of the Soraya or the new one. I believe the poster who the gave the feedback was only 10 km from you Hugh. I'm pretty sure you may know him.
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Hello
I'm a member of Audiogon, so I've check and found it at the first page, here is the link.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1253367435&&&/Any-experience-with-the-Aspen-Soraya-Amp
Bye
Gaetan
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Ah, yes, Kieran, that's Keith Wong, a very clever and discerning physician with a VERY expensive system I've heard; Acapellas, a very exotic plasma tweeter from Germany.
Keith heard the older, 2008 Soraya, not the latest. The later one does have some considerable refinement, largely due to a complete revision of the input stage.
Incidentally, it's tricky comparing tube amps with SS amps; they do so much differently. As a general rule, tube amps are highly musical, with wonderful image depth, but they often lack top end extension, usually lack deep bass and impact, and generally lack attack. Good ones are still VERY good, however, but there are strengths and weaknesses to both technologies. I try to combine the goods, dispel the bads.
Gaetan, thank you very much for the link; I went straight there, easy to identify Keith! He is a committed audiophile with more knowledge of classical music than anyone I have ever met, particularly opera.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Good to know. Thanks for checking and for the clarification. I agree on your take on tube amps. Most that I have heard are little rolled off or bit recessed in the treble area. I owned one that was an integrated, the Cayin A-KT88. I put the Tung Sol 6550s in it and it was very good in all areas, and very good in treble extension. The problem was I used it in the bed room system and one of the sources was tv, it was left on all the because we fell asleep watching tv. The on off switch was not on the remote. I kept having to replace tubes every so often. I also owned a couple of other tube amps, they sound good, more musical and warm form the most part, but I am never going back. I thought about getting Van Alsine or Butler hybrid, but then I discoverd this site and now want to give the Maya a try, maybe this one can give then best of boy worlds.
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Kieran,
Good to see we are on the same page!
I love 'best of boy worlds'!! This might be a typo, but by golly, audio is a Toy Story, no question...... we seek perfection here!
Thank you for your confidence and interest. I will keep you well informed, I promise!!
BTW, I've just had a clever friend install a Duet, and plugged into my NAKSA and VSonics I'm listening to Frisky Radio in SF, CA, wow it's good, wonderful trance music! :drool:
Cheers,
Hugh
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I went straight there, easy to identify Keith! He is a committed audiophile with more knowledge of classical music than anyone I have ever met, particularly opera.
However, his fondness for 'Keating: The Musical' and German Beer Hall Songs is a little alarming.
That said...his immediate reaction upon hearing my old AKSA 100N+ (driving a $15K prototype sub/sat system modelled on Magico Mini's) a few years back was priceless. Nailed me with the twenty questions before we'd gone more than a few bars....
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Sean,
Interesting. All he wanted to do when he met me was argue!! But eventually we got along, he definitely played down how good the Soraya was compared to his Cary, which was a good amp, but archetype tube, with all the strengths and weaknesses.
Which demonstrates very clearly that different folks, different strokes, and that while I could admire his taste in opera and the classics 'Keating - The Musical' leaves me speechless.....
Hugh
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Hey guys. Just wanted to let you all know I have decided to purchase the Maya when it ready. I am very excited and it is always good to have something to look forward to in audio. I have plenty of experience with a lot of amps, both tube and solid state. I will be sure and post my impressions of the Maya in my system. Actually I have 4 sets of speakers in the house and 4 other amps so I should be able to give a good idea how the Maya performs in various situations. My main system has the Tidal Audio Piano loudspeakers. Check out the John Potis (RIP) review of the Tidal Piano.
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Folks,
I better watch out. :duh: I have a customer now I can NEVER disappoint, so you can believe I will be working very hard to maintain the pace......
I've just had word the new pcbs are on their way, too.
Thanks Kieran, gudonya mate,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Out of curiosity, do you have any plans to send any of your later amp to any hifi mag for a review? Just like the last TNT one on the aksa. I am pretty sure their jaws will be on the ground by the end of the listening session.
And my mum always tell me to SHARE!!! the good stuff :roll: dun keep it all to yourself. :thumb:
Cheers,
KK
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Folks,
I better watch out. :duh: I have a customer now I can NEVER disappoint, so you can believe I will be working very hard to maintain the pace......
I've just had word the new pcbs are on their way, too.
Thanks Kieran, gudonya mate,
Hugh
Relax Hugh. If it is not my cup of tea, I won't be irresponsible and make a blanket statement the amp is not any good. Instead I will try and put things within the right context. Besides, If I were a betting man I doubt I will be in that situation or have to cross that bridge. I'm sure (hoping) that I will love it and instead will be able to inform others it is indeed a great component.
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Thanks Kieran!
Yesterday I received the V10 Maya pcbs, and have since begun assembly!! I'm very pleased with the board, it's very elegant and I reckon will be the best amp yet.......
I will email you with photos and progress as I move forward. Ah, the excitement of life, huh?
Hugh
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Sounds great. Now get your bungus to work and build my amp. I have thristry ears and some hungary speakers waiting. :D Just kidding of course. Great news and yes things of this nature are certainly exciting.
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Now get your bungus to work and build my amp.
Afterimage, I popped around to see Hugh this morning and can faithfully confirm that I witnessed him working on the initial stuffing of your PCBs. Then I'm a bit ashamed to say, I enticed him away for a coffee and that stopped him working for a bit. But I'm sure he's back slaving away this afternoon. :duh:
Incidentally, the sound of the Maya is not any sort of 'likeability' risk. I can't see you sending it back. I've heard the pre production version playing A/B with my 2009 Soraya and it's a wonderful amp. 99% similar but with a touch more of the things the extra power and current handling ability bestow plus the slightly more valve like nature of the zero global feedback topology. In fact IMO, the strengths of all Hugh's designs is that they solidly straddle the gap between conventional SS and valve sound and virtues including the wonderful drive and control they have over speakers that belies their stated power.
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Afterimage, I popped around to see Hugh this morning and can faithfully confirm that I witnessed him working on the initial stuffing of your PCBs. Then I'm a bit ashamed to say, I enticed him away for a coffee and that stopped him working for a bit. But I'm sure he's back slaving away this afternoon. :duh:
Incidentally, the sound of the Maya is not any sort of 'likeability' risk. I can't see you sending it back. I've heard the pre production version playing A/B with my 2009 Soraya and it's a wonderful amp. 99% similar but with a touch more of the things the extra power and current handling ability bestow plus the slightly more valve like nature of the zero global feedback topology. In fact IMO, the strengths of all Hugh's designs is that they solidly straddle the gap between conventional SS and valve sound and virtues including the wonderful drive and control they have over speakers that belies their stated power.
Why make two amps at different price points if they are "99%" similar? Okay, just playing devils advocate here, if they sound that much alike, then why would Hugh invest a bunch of time and money on the R and D for the Maya and instead just make a more powerful version of the Soraya? Also, I hope sounding more like valve could be a great thing, as long as it has the treble extension instead of the roll off or recessed treble typical of a lot of valve amps. Of course that depends on everything else as well. For example if you have a speaker with an overactive tweeter, valves amps can bring them in balance and make things easier on the ears.
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Kieran,
Good point. I actually don't quite agree with Lyn on this; one is a 100W amp, the other is a 150W amp (the Maya) and quite apart from different sonic characteristics is competing in a different space. On top of that, the most influential factor in a power amp is its topology, and they are totally different, with only the single ended voltage amplifier in common, all else quite different, including input and output stages.
There is also the small matter of feedback. The Maya is a zero global fb amp, and as such sounds more natural, truly it 'disappears'. The Soraya uses global feedback, not too much, but around 30dB, so its presentation differs.
In general, I do agree that making 'identical' amps at different price points is plain silly. But I have to check myself here, as I design amps in my head most weeks as a mental exercise, build a few of them, but tend to toy with ideas for long periods.
I've yet to take that picture, I shall do it now.....
Cheers,
Hugh
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The other thing is current. I have heard a high current 100 wt amp sound like it has more balls than a 140 watt amp in a comparison before. The speakers used in this comparison were a Mark and Daniel Ruby, they need at least 100 watts so they are relatively power hungary for a small book shelf.
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The other thing is current. I have heard a high current 100 wt amp sound like it has more balls than a 140 watt amp in a comparison before.
Indeed, AI. :)
In relation to this, all I can say is that Maggies - particularly the bigger, 3-way ones like I have - are notorious current whores (in terms of the big bass panels). I run my IIIas 3-way active and with a LF100 on the bass panels, I never hear a hint of strain. IE. it certainly has "balls"!! :o
So the Soraya and, more so, the Maya will also. :D
Regards,
Andy
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I apologise if my 99% gave the wrong message. :oops: I simply meant to convey by it that the drive (balls), overall performance and sonic character of all Hugh's amps (across all of their price points) are uniformly achieved to my ears. And yes, I meant sounding more valve like as a great (as Afterimage describes it) and positive thing. :)
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Lyn,
Absolutely no apology needed. You called it how you saw it, and that's the wonder of forums, anything less would be censorship, not something any of us would like.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Who are you kidding Hugh? The only reason you don't ban him from this forum is because he takes you out for coffee. Heck, he probably gives you chocolate too. :thumb:
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Kieran.
You are very well informed!!
However, we draw the line at chocolate, I have an imposing, burgeoning girth to consider!!
Hugh
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Afterimage,
The prior Maya that has been heard is the first prototype which aside from its Zero Global design contained many similarities to the Soraya 2009 Toplogically at that stage. In the last 3 months the Maya has been very painstakingly reworked and I must say the gap has been widened, while there are still similarities, the virtues of each have been fully extolled. The Maya in its infancy was superb sounding, but its a wholly different beast these days sharing even less in common with its predecessor ;)...The most obvious bonus with the Zero Global approach is that it will literally drive any speaker with full stability, the catch is, being open loop we have one shot to get it right since we dont have global feedback to clean up any loose ends..
Colin
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Thanks Colin!!
Kieran,
There speaketh the lesson - Colin has been intimately involved with refinement of the Maya, in fact HE has signed off on it, being younger and bat-eared. The amp I am building for you is his sign-off, with one additional concept - adaptive bias - which I thought was my idea until I looked at Andrea Ciuffoli's website a few days back and saw he had dreamed it up before me. However, his was a conceptual diagram only, I have built and refined it in a prototype, and now it's a stable, 100% implementation.
I make it clear that this amp is a joint effort between Colin and me, and that his input has been spectacular. Thanks mate!
Hugh
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Thanks Colin!!
The amp I am building for you is his sign-off, with one additional concept - adaptive bias - which I thought was my idea until I looked at Andrea Ciuffoli's website a few days back and saw he had dreamed it up before me. However, his was a conceptual diagram only, I have built and refined it in a prototype, and now it's a stable, 100% implementation.
Hugh
Cmon, Hugh .. what the hell is "adaptive bias" and why is it so good? I thought you already had a good bias arrangement worked with the Soraya (compared to the LFs)? :D
Regards,
Andy
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Adaptive bias is a means by which the traditional current starvation issues with diamond buffers are resolved. It meters the current drawn by the load, and ramps up the driver current to supply the increasing bias requirement of the output devices.
It means that the distortion of the buffer is greatly reduced and the efficiency of the driver stage can be considerably improved.
Hugh
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Adaptive bias is a means by which the traditional current starvation issues with diamond buffers are resolved. It meters the current drawn by the load, and ramps up the driver current to supply the increasing bias requirement of the output devices.
It means that the distortion of the buffer is greatly reduced and the efficiency of the driver stage can be considerably improved.
Hugh
Thanks, Hugh. Sounds good (although it's really beyond me! :D ).
Regards,
Andy
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Adaptive bias is a means by which the traditional current starvation issues with diamond buffers are resolved. It meters the current drawn by the load, and ramps up the driver current to supply the increasing bias requirement of the output devices.
It means that the distortion of the buffer is greatly reduced and the efficiency of the driver stage can be considerably improved.
Hugh
[/quote
"So it it turbo charged?" "only on the floor model". :eyebrows:
Andy, yeah this is beyond me too. Quote above is from the movie "My Cousin Vinny" where a guy was explaining a machine in great detail to prove his credentials and basically was talking way above everyone else. Some one in smart tone asked the above question and got an answer he did not expect as he thought the question would have nothing to do with this machine what so ever. Darn funny. Anyway, guys even though it is above me I still like to read about it, good stuff none the less. But in the end, for a simpleton like me the most important thing is it sounds good in my system.
-Kieran
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Adaptive bias is a means by which the traditional current starvation issues with diamond buffers are resolved. It meters the current drawn by the load, and ramps up the driver current to supply the increasing bias requirement of the output devices.
It means that the distortion of the buffer is greatly reduced and the efficiency of the driver stage can be considerably improved.
Hugh
"So it it turbo charged?" "Only on the floor model." :eyebrows:
Andy, yeah this is beyond me too. Quote above is from the movie "My Cousin Vinny" where a guy was explaining a machine in great detail to prove his credentials and basically was talking way above everyone else. Some one in smart tone asked the above question and got an answer he did not expect as he thought the question would have nothing to do with this machine what so ever. Darn funny. Anyway, guys even though it is above me I still like to read about it, good stuff none the less. But in the end, for a simpleton like me the most important thing is it sounds good in my system.
-Kieran
I can assure you, Kieran, that the new Maya will sound good! :drool: I heard the "old" one and that was good. :eyebrows: (And, yes, I'm pretty sure it had the "diamond buffer"! :D )
Regards,
Andy
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Okay, guys thats enough. All your doing now is making me more excited about the Maya. Time do dig in for the wait.
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Okay, guys thats enough. All your doing now is making me more excited about the Maya. Time do dig in for the wait.
It will be worth it, if its any additional consolation, since completing the Maya I have found it hard to get motivated to try anything new at this point, it will come in time, but im very satisfied with the Maya at present..
Thanks Hugh!, its always been a pleasure, and an obsession working on these together in whats been a seemingly quite productive team effort!!. The adaptive bias may not be "New", but its none the less a brilliant idea with the goal and Aim of most of the Benefits of Class A"sound", without the waste in heat in our present society which is in Dire need of moving "Greener".. The Diamond buffer needs either high biased drivers to sound good/or adaptive bias, the key factor is Output biasing, and the transition where the driver slides from static state into adaptive, screw up this point, and things wont be what they should be..Then the lovely fact that this will change for different devices used ;)..Without divulging too much, thats it in a nutshell, the topology part is easy, the hardest part is getting the most out of the topology as Hugh can attest to.
When it all comes together, its an amazingly natural, powerful, tube like delivery with realism that contains none of that SS hardness whatsoever.
Colin
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Hey Colin,
Yo got mail......
Andy,
If you and I sat down in a cafe, where I could read your comprehension or otherwise, I could explain this to you in a few minutes, possibly as few as two coffees and a friand, flourless of course......
Kieran,
Don't be too balked by all this tech stuff. In a few years it will be utterly conventional, people building diamond buffer output stages, which are truly sonically outstanding - Colin turned my attention to them - these guys will all be using this adaptive bias technique. Once explained, all these things are pretty straightforward, only the Theory of Relativity is really tough to understand.
And lest it seem that I'm bright, be assured there are people on other forums who are hundreds of times brighter than any of us put together. The minute you think you are clever you close off your mind and stop learning. I've found that everyone has skills aplenty, we are very complex creatures, we just need to find what we are good at. Those who do are normally financially successful, perhaps you are one of those! When it comes to administration and finance, I'm a babe in the woods....
Cheers,
Hugh
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would this amp be considered a wide bandwith amp?
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Kieran,
Absolutely!! We need to put in a low pass filter so it doesn't pick up radio stations!!
And it works beautifully down to VERY low frequencies too, the bass is extraordinary.......
Must send another photo of the boards, making progress.
Cheers,
Hugh
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The minute you think you are clever you close off your mind and stop learning.
It's what you learn after you already know EVERYTHING that really counts!!!
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However, Steve, by the time you reach this point, you've forgotten half of what you know......
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a grey nomad's four wheel drive: 'Adventure before Dementia'.
Long may our blood flow down one leg and up the other......
Cheers,
Hugh
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Absolutely!! We need to put in a low pass filter so it doesn't pick up radio stations!!
So, what's your take on the low pass Fc in this day and age? :wink:
Been hovering these new amp threads for a while. I'm confident that your latest creations will be absolutely brilliant! Still enjoying my LF55 monoblocks. They've been with me for two or three years now, and I've never looked back. Epic gear. :thumb:
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Hi PK,
Great to see you here, and thanks for the comments about your LF55, very nice of you.
At the moment I'm using 1K/220pF, but I'm sure open to suggestion. You feel you can hear them, don't you? Problem is, when you have very good HF performance, you have to guard against the entry of RF and other EMI. It's also necessary on the output with a choke, of course.
Cheers,
Hugh
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However, Steve, by the time you reach this point, you've forgotten half of what you know......
I think most people that know everything have it all down by 25, 30 at the limit.
Therefore, you are too old to know everything, so you have to keep learning.
And the problem is, you don't know which half you know and which half you don't.
Just an aside.
Steve
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Hugh,
Your right in all regards about the LPF!, except this filter is largely depndant on the amount of feedback used, in a "Lower" feedback amp we can get away with a very high -3db point as the amp is much less likely to ever get peturbed by RF signals. I still feel the audibility factor is there, and perhaps this may be related to phase anomalies with a lower cutoff FR. Strangely enough I do too notice improvements in sound with a higher cutoff frequency, provided the amplifier is stable initially without a LPF...
Colin
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At the moment I'm using 1K/220pF, but I'm sure open to suggestion.
That's a great choice. I landed on the same values for my LF's. :eyebrows: The cap is pretty light, so it's an easy load for any preamp. It's not dark sounding, but it won't be bright or harsh sounding either. Perfect. 8)
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Thanks Colin,
Agree about the fb issue; less means less filtering. I guess it's important we realise that a speaker is actually an active load, and feeds back into the amp almost as much program material as it receives!
PK,
I'm delighted we hit the sweet spot! I suspect that the phase shift of this cap is important somehow at high audio frequencies, smaller is better. The highish R is an issue, I feel, but if the bias in the first stage is kept very low the series drop is still around 5mV, which is still acceptable for good input control.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Simple little question on the Aspen Amps. Can we leave them on 24/7 or do you recommend we turn them on and off according to use?
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Absolutely, Kieran,
You can leave on the Maya, it consumes 32 watts at idle, while the NAKSA70 does about 8W at idle. The Lifeforce series are a little less than this - a tad more efficient - but as a general rule, all Aspen products are designed to offer this choice, either off, or on 24/7.
Years ago, I did a Class A amp called the Glass Harmony. Each channel, and it was built as a monobloc, consumed 155W of power, so it made a very good room heater, suitable for lattitude higher than about 40 degrees, but NOT good in subtropical areas, let alone tropical. This taught me the useful lesson that in a future, green world we would all have to consider energy use, and since then I have strived to avoid excessive waste of energy.
Hope this answers the question, now and again I miss the point!
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Does the Soraya CB105 come as a module or only as an assembled stereo amplifier ?
Regards,
Dinesh
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Hi Dinesh,
The Soraya is a full on retail product, so comes only fully assembled.
Hope this helps,
Hugh
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thanks Hugh!
Doing a little research atm. Kind of impressive considering Carlos,
who has built over 3300 amplifiers still praises your original 55 watt Aksa !! :o :wink:
So if this Soraya is an improvement...
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Dinesh,
Sorry for late reply.
Carlos is an institution at DIYaudio, but all too often now is caught up in technical debates he cannot win because his knowledge is chiefly empirical and subjective, original sin in the eyes of a credentialled EE!
He has always been very enthusiastic about my amps, it is true, and this has been reassuring because his ear is VERY good. I tire of the mutual mistrust between the EEs and the golden ears; the truth is, both are needed, it's a lawyer/police standoff and it isn't improving with time. In fact the whole adversarial 'stand and deliver' approach of the west makes me shake my head these days.
My thoughts are this: no one escapes the basic engineering, it's perennial as the grass, and a thorough, working knowledge of Ohms and Kirchoffs laws is mandatory to design a power amp. However, I challenge the notion that if you can't measure it, it is not there, as I have heard many subtle changes by simply changing operating points and component choices. Neither do I accept the largely defeatist argument that the subjective is just that, and can't be trusted, and should therefore be ignored. I think it is true that tastes vary, just as they do with food, art and sport, and they even change according to mood - especially with music. But if subjectivity is so unreliable for the individual, then we must look to the group, and assess en masse, looking for preferences and consensus. When you do this, you can pick out certain immutable observations, which are very useful for someone designing for mass appeal. As a business, you must sell in numbers, so this approach is extremely useful anyway.
I try not to trust my own ears too much - I'm only one guy, and I'm clearly biased as the designer. I get lots of friends, acquaintances and committed audiophiles to listen, and I can very quickly now find consensus. Furthermore, I find that getting the engineering dead right is merely first base. Then begins the tuning for best sound, with operating point and component choices. This is the difference between competence and excellence. This makes audio design something like art, because you find that different designers tend to have a 'house' sound. Within limits, I think this is true of people like Nelson Pass, Andy Grove (Audio Note UK), Tim de Paravicini (EAR) and D'Agostino (Krell). People buy on name, and for very good reasons.
Hugh