[JLM]

Again, I am very much thankful of that reviewers and manufacturers that participate in open forums like this.  And I appreciate how easy it is for us listeners/consumers to get "worked up" about aspects of audio (please this is not a slam against anyone, because I've done it too).  I'm always impressed when someone like Bob can come here and in a level headed fashion address various concerns.

With all the emphasis on accuracy and professional monitoring I wonder how "musically enjoyable" these speakers are.  I've heard Lowthers a few times and am impressed by much of what they do, but personally could not live with the hyper-detailed presentation they offer.  This level of detail forces me to pay attention to details at the expense of missing the "musical essence" of the performance.  Does this make sense to anyone here?  It's a bit like impressionist paintings (which I like).  If you look too close, all you see is colored dots/blotches.  You have to pull back and simply enjoy the overall image.  Musical details are a hoot, but often I just want to relax with music.

Similarly, do these speakers render "ordinary" recordings unlistenable because they are so detailed?  Unfortunately many of my favorite recordings are poorly recorded and many of the well recorded performances I've found I don't enjoy.  

I've checked the SP website and found no available dealership.  Can customers come to the factory/shop to audition?  (I live 3 hours away and would rather make the drive than fuss with shipping to gain a first impression.)


Psych:  

I agree with your comment about web designers that go overboard.  Although I have cable modem service, it's often so slow with my Pentium 2 computer as to make some sites unusable.


jeff

[infiniti driver]

Hi JLM!

In my coments on this board, mainly what I talked about answers your above questions. Review my comments again on the musicality aspects of listening.

Tkx!

[Carlman]

I like Voeck's designs... When he designed for Snell he did some fantastic work.  I don't understand what the big deal is with '4th order' crossovers... I'm outta my league in this regard... However, I don't hear any issues with the Peforma F30's.

It's just a matter of taste.  I like lively, detailed sound with good bass punch (or slam).  The only anomoly I've noted is that the bass and treble overall seem very separated unless the speakers are positioned perfectly and I have some room treatments.

I know this thread is about SP so, back to them... I'm just having a tough time understanding why someone would imply that 4th order is a bad design and that their are known issues with it... I've tried to glean what I can from the comment here but, I'm not getting it.

[audiojerry]

Bob of SP,
Your post was so eloquent and courteous, that this alone is strong encouragement to give your company a closer look.  If you only knew how many speakers have visited my listening room.     I hope you decide to stick around and become a regular. I am also appreciative to Infiniti for his considerate comments. Thanks to JLM for bringing SP to our attention.

So, if SP offers a 30 day return policy, who here will be first to put that 30 day trial to the test? Is SP factory direct? Maybe SP would be willing to cover the shipping cost if one of us here would be willing to post a review in the Critic's Circle...hint hint  

[Double Ugly]

So, if SP offers a 30 day return policy, who here will be first to put that 30 day trial to the test? Is SP factory direct?  Maybe SP would be willing to cover the shipping cost if one of us here would be willing to post a review in the Critic's Circle...hint hint

SP already covers shipping both ways for the Timepiece 2.0s.  Pretty confident, huh?

FWIW, unless someone else moves pretty quickly, I'll likely be the first to get them.

DU

[audiojerry]

[
SP already covers shipping both ways for the Timepiece 2.0s.  Pretty confident, huh?
DU

I took a brief visit to SP's website. I couldn't find anything about a 30 day trial period. Regarding shipping, this is what I found:

All shipping fees must be pre-paid by you at the time of shipment. Any product(s) returned with shipping fees due will be rejected as well.

[/i]

[Double Ugly]

DU

I took a brief visit to SP's website. I couldn't find anything about a 30 day trial period. Regarding shipping, this is what I found:

All shipping fees must be pre-paid by you at the time of shipment. Any product(s) returned with shipping fees due will be rejected as well.

[/i]

It's in the "Purchase" section:  http://www.4sptech.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PLST&Store_Code=STL

Here is the quote:  "Purchase a pair of Speakers and then audition them for thirty days "risk free" in your own space. All prices INCLUDE SHIPPING! If you're not absolutely "blown away" by their performance for any reason, just ship them back and we'll refund your money in full AND pay all return freight charges including insurance!!! (Free return shipping NOT valid on the Continuum A.D.)"

DU

[Aether Audio]

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their continued interest in our company.  Thanks too for abiding my previous, long winded post.  I'd also like to address a few of the issues that have recently posted.

First, please accept our apologies Psychicanimal.  We're sorry for the inconvenience.  I'm not going to try and pull the wool over on you folks.  Our company is small and just really getting started.  We didn't have the resources to pay for a big time web design company to put together our website in the way we wanted.  Sooo...my eldest son Jason (26), being quite the computer genius, volunteered his efforts.  He and his younger brothers Jeremiah and Britton all contributed with 3-D modeling, programming, etc.  Seeing that the "apple doesn't fall too far from the tree," they're all a bit obsessive like their old man.  Hence, the slightly "over the top" web design.  That's cool though.  They're already putting together a lower "res" version for dial-up users so I hope you folks can be patient.  I had to throw this plug in for them though as even though some may think my Webmaster "sucks," I'm pretty darn proud of him/them.  When you consider that they're all self taught, I'm even more impressed.  So there!

JLM: I'd invite you over to hear our product in a heartbeat, if I had any for you to hear, that is.  We sold out all of our stock in July.  Since we didn't have any orders and the ETM review hadn't been firmly scheduled, we decided to make good use of the time and upgrade our tooling.  We're back in production now but we're building to order.  Haven't had a chance to get ahead of the curve.  Heck, I don't even have a production pair for myself! - sold 'em.  So soon as I get a pair that I don't have to ship we'll have you over.  Send me an e-mail or private message and we'll make arrangements.

audiojerry:  Thanks so much for your kind words, we try to be civil.  I reckon I'll be around for as long as time permits.  Things are getting hectic though.  Sorry for the mis-info on our site about shipping fees.  That's old and needs to be removed.  The fact is, we are offering the "No Risk" round trip deal - for a while.  We can't do this forever though, for obvious reasons.  I hope all of you that are interested get in on it before we withdraw it.

Double Ugly:  Thanks for the support; we need good folks like you to help us get the word out.

So long for now.  Dare I say?
God Bless Everyone,
 - Bob

PS.  OOOPS!!! I may have misled a few with the above statement that "Heck, I don't even have a production pair for myself!"  I didn't mean to imply that the reference "mule" or prototype used in the lab was not in our possesion.  She may be ugly but she's mine.  Only have one (no stereo pair) but that's the one every production unit we make is compared to.  So don't worry folks, the original is safe and sound.

[Carlman]

So long for now. Dare I say?
God Bless Everyone,
- Bob

You can daresay anything you want as long as it's not a personal threat or something very aggressive in nature.

We'd like to see you around more.  This has been a good thread with lots of excellent information.  Feel free to visit our FAQ section and all the other circles.

Thanks and hope to hear more from SP and its products down the road.

-Carl
(one of the moderators for this forum

[Marbles]

Bob,

Glad to see another Hoosier on the site.  We have a Market Square section that would be perfect for your company to make commercial posts should you desire.  That circle is for advertising type posts for companies that do not have their own circle here.

Anyway, it looks like you are a class act and I wish you and you business great success.

Rob Curtis
Fort Wayne
An Admin here at AC (but don't hold that against me    )

[Tuckers]

I will have to second the experience of infiniti driver.  I owned Revel Salons.  After 6 months, I began to be dissatisfied with the sound.  It became apparent after extended listening that the drivers did not sound continuous and there was a bump or ringing in the upper midrange that sounded like clarity initially.  

I bought the Vandersteen 5 which is a time and phase correct, first order crossover design.  To my ears it is one of the most coherent speakers I have heard, and I think partially due to it's first order design.

[nathanm]

re: web design - Use text links or un-animated buttons, little java, no frames (frames make it prohibitively difficult to bookmark), no pop-ups, no Flash, skip the intro page, go easy on the Quicktime...your site will get a real kick in the pants!   I am sipping off a T1 myself and one of the pages took many minutes to load.  Not good. So really, the dial-up users aren't the only ones thumb-twiddling.  Also, showing the whole range at once on the ordering page makes more sense than showing one at a time and stepping through them in linear fashion.  Just my 2 cents...  "Obsessive" is good, obsessive about fast load times is better!

The speakers certainly sound interesting, I'd love to hear them side by side with my current studio monitors which exhibit some similar design approaches, although they differ in many ways.

Bill Roberts: Could you tell us more about your mastering facility and its acoustics?  I'm curious and it may help to put the review in context.  For example, how far apart were the speakers placed and how far away were you when auditioning them?

[infiniti driver]

Bill Roberts: Could you tell us more about your mastering facility and its acoustics? I'm curious and it may help to put the review in context. For example, how far apart were the speakers placed and how far away were you when auditioning them?

The room is 22'X14' with a sloping ceiling.  Nine feet 4 inches in the front and 8 feet 4 inches in the rear. The house was built in 1925. The flooring is maple and the area where the chair is has a 12 X 8 foot carpet inset. The loudspeakers are on the long front wall, spaced 77 inches apart and 53 inches away from my nose to the front left and right inside walls of the speakers. They are spaced 17 inches from the wall. The ceiling is pecky cypress and the lathe has 1/4 to 1/2 inch spaces between the long boards...running long ways left and right. They vent into the attic space...so the room cannot be "pressurized"

Along all walls is Acoustics first sound channels treatment covering all walls except where the windows are (3) and they are covered with blinds. The windows are the jalousy style Florida windows. The room is very dead and that the ceiling opens along the lathe into the attic, extream low frequencies have a place to "go".

Thats about it for the room. I use a solid state logic console as my preamplifier and sources range from FM, Broadcast, DBS, Hard drive, Turntable, SACD player, ADAT and analog tape of 1" and 1/4" as well as some very well recorded cassettes I made in the 70;s from live acts. I also use a DAT machine and record to hard drive using the SSL mic pres of live musicians at venues as well as solo acoustic instruments and vocals recorded here using the Bruel&Kjaer 3529 Microphone system.


I also have other rooms of various degrees of absorbtion and reflection and move review pieces around the house to see how they perform in other situations with a wide variety of equipment.

[Audio Architect]

I have the following questions regarding SP Technology Loudspeakers:
1. Prior to discovering your products I was and still am interested in speakers, which utilize ribbon drivers. Proponents of ribbons claim the advantage of their low mass, which improves transient response. Since your products use a conventional dome driver, how do they compare with ribbons regarding transient response?
2. The specifications on your web site indicate that the primary difference between the Time Piece 2.0 and the Continuum A.D. is power-handling capacity. I am sure there are other differences, could you please elaborate?
3. The frequency response indicated on your site rolls off after about 16000. Why did you choose to do this there are many domes that extend well into the 20’s, or is it a by product of the wave guide technology?

[Double Ugly]

I ordered two Timepiece 2.0s w/ matching stands yesterday.  Also picked-up a used BAT VK-3i on Audiogon at a reasonable price.  I'll pair it with the ZR1600 I'll get from Nathan as soon as he's ready to offer the mods.

I'll try to address the Sony 200-CD changer's issues by placing a dAck! between it and the BAT, connected with one of Nathan's new digital wonder cables.

Hopefully I'll have everything in place by the time the speakers arrive in approximately 30 days.

DU

[infiniti driver]

I have the following questions regarding SP Technology Loudspeakers:
1. Prior to discovering your products I was and still am interested in speakers, which utilize ribbon drivers. Proponents of ribbons claim the advantage of their low mass, which improves transient response. Since your products use a conventional dome driver, how do they compare with ribbons regarding transient response?
2. The specifications on your web site indicate that the primary difference between the Time Piece 2.0 and the Continuum A.D. is power-handling capacity. I am sure there are other differences, could you please elaborate?
3. The frequency response indicated on your site rolls off after about 16000. Why did you choose to do this there are many domes that extend well into the 20’s, or is it a by product of the wave guide technology?
 
 
 

Hello Audio Architect!

Pesonally, I will answer to the best of my experience your questions but I feel it would be much more prudent to wait for SP Pres. answers to the questions concerning the Timepiece 2.0 and the tweeter implementation...but from an educated and experienced aspect, I will answer them as I can.

This said:

1. Prior to discovering your products I was and still am interested in speakers, which utilize ribbon drivers. Proponents of ribbons claim the advantage of their low mass, which improves transient response. Since your products use a conventional dome driver, how do they compare with ribbons regarding transient response?

Lets talk about ribbons from a designers view and freom a listeners view, shall we?

I was very intriqued with ribbon drivers in the middle 70's and started working with them in design by the later 70's.

You remember the AMT1 by ESS?

After getting aquinted with them, I could see certain attributes that certainly caught my attention from the musical standpoint, although, I found their were other problems with that design (dipole, poor acoustic coupling due to magnet shape, crossover interaction at certain modes) but what did stand out is that they were open, fast, and could go very high.

When I worked in design with ribbons, I worked with the foster unit that Speakerlab in Seattle Wa. used in their designs then. It was property of Rank organasation UK at the time and this caused some working relationships with said tweeter to be rather strange business wise and also "political" in nature as well. IF you were not under their guiese at the time, you had no right to use the unit as it was liscensed. This said, the tweeter was awesome from 5K top 25K. That is Wide range for a single ribbon driver.

Going forward, my problem with most ribbons as in tweeters...(note that) (sans some of the newer 2000$/up units that I do not have the time or luxury to devuldge in) is firstly, they are quite fragile in power bandwidth. They do their finest job reproducing upper harmonics above the 4K fundamental up to the 30K and 40K range, althjough their dispersion is more non-linear than a dome (most ribbons use a mini waveguide to get around that) and the power response below 4K tends to cause serious problems, no matter how you load them acoustically. This said, they serve well as super tweeters to provide some additional "air" above 12k but for lower Frequencies, one would need to design the ribbon driver around that particular range. Basically what I am sayings is in my experience, ribbons that go all the way down to 100hZ, have a limited bandpass as do those that go in the above 20KhZ regions. All this means is if you want to try to reproduce 1K to 20K with a ribbon, As the timepiece waveguide demonstrates)  their will be sacrifices in dispertion, powerband and other anomilies, because ribbons have a limited frequency range sweet spot. As been demonstrated by FOSTEX in their early 90' RB series of reference control loudspeakers, they had to use a four way design to keep all their ribbon drivers behaved in their specific range of frequencies. IT was a 4 way system crossed over if memory serves me from edgeless 12" woofers to 200hz, then 1K then 7K. It did sound mighty good indeed, and was a 40K dollar speaker syste. 3 way ribbons with woofers.

Ribbon tweeters have a hard time doing 20K and 2K at the same time coherently. They have a limited bandwidth power wise VS frequency.

So that is my exprience with ribbons to date. OF course, someone may find a way around said problems with another set of rules governing ribbons. Time will tell. At this day, the AMT 1 upper frequency driver, although not accurate to power response, did cover the widest frequency for its size  In a ribbon device, in a single device, in it era.


the apogees (1 Ohm), and the Carver amazing loudspeaker, never took the design to a point that overcomed the objections to my ears and to the state of musicallity. Thie was always something, if you chose to look around it, that would be your choice.



Next:

Proponents of ribbons claim the advantage of their low mass, which improves transient response. Since your products use a conventional dome driver, how do they compare with ribbons regarding transient response?

Since ribbons have a limited frequency range in which they operate in linear fashion, you are comparing a driver that can go from 950hZ to 18K within a 1.5dB range to a driver that may not have that (or will not) spread. As per my observations, I feel that mass loading a driver with air in the impedance transformation gurantees a stable transient response througout its range, theirfore due to the wide bandwidth of the waveguide, you enjoy linear response throuout a wide range of frequencies both in amplitude, rise time and lineararity in frequency reponse. Perhaps SP Pres can elaborate.

The specifications on your web site indicate that the primary difference between the Time Piece 2.0 and the Continuum A.D. is power-handling capacity. I am sure there are other differences, could you please elaborate?

This is a question for SP Pres. I have not listened to the continuim so I reserve any explanation of fact. I will say that the 4ohm load presented will enjoy the amplifier delivering more power and the added cone ara and air movement potential shall result in higher dB enjoyment. As per what was done to the high pass unit to "keep up" with the compound woofers, only the designer is qualifyed to expound in this.

The frequency response indicated on your site rolls off after about 16000. Why did you choose to do this there are many domes that extend well into the 20’s, or is it a by product of the wave guide technology?

Lets look at a bare dome tweeter. It is small, ususally 1" or less. The radiationg area of the dome has a physical limit of vibration in hZ due to the moving mass and how much air it can "grab" This said, Domes fall terribly short in trying to propagate (we are talking 1" dome tweeters or up to 33MM, more than one inch) the lowest frequencies due to being too phyically small to move enough air at those frequencies (below 1.8K actually) to be linear within the diaphrams natural propagation pattern and what it can push. The low frequency effective limit of a one inch dome is 1.8K in power response. Most 1 inch tweeter voice coils would smoke at 10 watts driven with a 10 watt pure sine wave at 1800hZ Reason why is for the tweeter to be able to be light enought to actually do a nice 22K hZ frequency, the voice coil wire is 52 gauge windings and thermally, it cannot take that kind of juice at 1.8KhZ    also.....where as above 12K, the dome is radiating sound from a small portion of the dome, namely the decoupled part of the center of the dome. Of course frequencies travel down the surface of the dome and you get interferance..but a 1" dome can effectively radiate full power response (1") at 23khZ but with vary narrow dispersion, usually less than 17degrees, even with a phase plug.

The waveguilde itself allows the dome in the timepiece loudspeakers to operate as low as 950hZ because it has an impedance transformation due to being coupled with the air in front of it, effectively. Because of this impedance transformation, the driver is unable to have flat power response throughout the entire waveguide above 20khz. It WILL reproduce above 20KHZ in very limited dispersion. Off axis, their is substantial rolloff above 18K...but I measured 2dB rolloff at 18K and pretty darn flat at 16K.

What does this mean? It means if you take linear power response of the system at a 30 degree reading, the highs above 16K roll off. Point source, no such anomily. It is only fair that the company provide real world specification rather to ignore them. The impedance transformation is a trade off. The dispersion narrows above 16K in order to provide flat power response down to 950hZ..



If you sit directly within ear shot of the waveguides of the SP technology loudspeakers, then you will enjoy wave proagation to 20KhZ at a relatively flat power response. I used my B&K 3529's to measure at direct beam, flat to 21K very very close to the actual dome itself (at distance, the rolloff is there)...but this is cheating, we do not have laser beam ears. I use them slightly off axis...because I can and they are accurate at 22 degrees...where many speakers are not. I let them point to a spot that is at my elbows if I have my hands extended...so they do not point at me. Even when I did have them point source, since I am almost 45, I did not enjoy any "extra" high frequency response.

I hope this has some enlightning to you questions about driver. As a long time speaker engineer, I really love reviewing my knowledge in this and if it serves you properly, and others, it is great to interact!

Everyone, have a great weekend. The grill is fired up...Just waiting to wrap the veggies and put them on.

[lonewolfny42]

I ordered two Timepiece 2.0s w/ matching stands yesterday.  Also picked-up a used BAT VK-3i on Audiogon at a reasonable price.  I'll pair it with the ZR1600 I'll get from Nathan as soon as he's ready to offer the mods.

I'll try to address the Sony 200-CD changer's issues by placing a dAck! between it and the BAT, connected with one of Nathan's new digital wonder cables.

Hopefully I'll have everything in place by the time the speakers arrive in approximately 30 days.

DU

Looking forward to your future comments - lots of new equipement to discuss ! Thanks !

[Audio Architect]

"Hello Audio Architect!

Pesonally, I will answer to the best of my experience your questions but I feel it would be much more prudent to wait for SP Pres. answers to the questions concerning the Timepiece 2.0 and the tweeter implementation...but from an educated and experienced aspect, I will answer them as I can."

Thanks Infinity Driver for your reply and explanations. Hopefullt the designer will reply with additional explanations.

[infiniti driver]

I hope some... if any, that I wrote, can entertain some conjecture of this art. Your comments and questions of my understanding are most welcomed. Different people have different experiences and observations.

Feel free to ask at will with any or all parts of my explainations in interaction,  for not only a better understanding, but learning for me, baised on your observations.

A lab team together yields better results than one indivigual, their understanding.


Perhaps...more expounding on your experiences is of order. Lets see what you feel about your listening with ribbon drivers VS my experiences with them.


Perhaps we can fill some gaps in!



Last communication with SP Pres. is the company is in Manufacture mode and he may not have time to respond to the forum. It takes hundreds of hours to build one pair of Timepieces, and he has multiple orders , so his team is at work around the clock, slowly putting the production units together, and then all the testing involved.

Loudspeakers such as this do not get "mass produced".



Cheers, and as always, happy listening!

[Aether Audio]

Just dropped in to let everyone know I'm still listening.  Don't have time to answer your valued technical questions though.  Much needed rest awaits.  Been building speakers and I'm pooped.  Never fear - long winded dissertations are looming on the horizon.  Thanks Bill, for pinch hitting for me.

I did want to take time out to thank Carl and Rob though.  You guys made my day.  Your encouragement is greatly appreciated as well as your advice.  I sure hope I don't disappoint my fellow Hoosier.  See - HA! There is more than corn in Indiana.  Uhh...Hmm?...well, I guess that depends on who you ask.  We do have really good corn though.  High-End, even.  You can tell by the big ears!

Night all - be back soon...in force.
 - Bob