Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?

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alexone

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i hope you understand...
« Last Edit: 9 Jun 2009, 09:23 pm by alexone »

niels

Yes, with every new format there are enormous expectations. I once mentioned the good sound from DTS on music, didnt get much response here, no-one is interested in that.
Sacd can die, we dont need it, Blu-Ray however has potensial to be the really big thing, we just need to convince all the hardcore stereo enthusiasts that you now can get high definition sound from a 300 dollar player, and you even can get a picture with it. That will be a hard nut to crack...

ted_b

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Three things:
1) DXD is not Blu-Ray audio
2) DXD is the pro audio recording format used to record and give enough headroom that good editing can be done before DXD is quantized/converted to DSD (i.e SACD format..the exact one your diss'ing)
3) Why is this in a Bryston forum?

werd

hi, all!

there is something going on...
does blu-ray audio will become the heritage of sacd and/or dvd-audio? and another format promises unique sound: DXD. the Digital Extreme Definition. it comes with 352.8 khz and 24 bit.
for everyone who is interested please visit www.2l.no/hires.

may the sound be with you!


al :dance:

Hi Folks

Last night i was looking through my  Tocci digital text book. I used it when i took Digital at my local community college about 4 years ago. Got it for 5 bucks on ebay and at Kelsey's collegiate they wanted 75 bucks for it...lol. Anyways it has a section on DACs. One point it made is how the output from a dac is never(technically) truely analogue. It still resembles a digital signal. I would like to qoute it but i left the book at work. The jist of it is, once the digital signal is decoded the signal isnt truely analogue,because the signal rides on the ac in pieces. Of course the higher the rez the more pieces it has and closer together(starting to resemble a more true analogue signal). I was kinda suprised by this and it makes wonder how much this impacts the sound we can hear. I know there are techniques that smooth the signal out. I just think that higher the rez the less tinkering is needed and more pure(perhaps analogue)the signal gets. I dont think upsampling fixes this but only a true 192k predecoded signal does.

The way we talk about 24 bit ... we say high rez. But is it high rez or is it just closer to pure analogue? Maybe we should be calling it pure analogue instead of High rez.

alexone

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move yourself!
« Last Edit: 9 Jun 2009, 09:33 pm by alexone »

ted_b

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Three things:
1) DXD is not Blu-Ray audio
2) DXD is the pro audio recording format used to record and give enough headroom that good editing can be done before DXD is quantized/converted to DSD (i.e SACD format..the exact one your diss'ing)
3) Why is this in a Bryston forum?

hi, ted_b!

i know that DXD is not Blu-Ray audio. i thought it would be interesting to talk about Blu-Ray audio as it seems to become an interesting format.
and i think it is ok that this topic appears in this Bryston forum.


al.

I'm still confused.  What is your point/stance?  DXD has been around for awhile and is not a format.  It is the recording algorithm for SACD's DSD recordings.  Are you arguing that it's a dying format, or that Blu Ray audio is coming (it's already here for awhile, I own a few of them, like 2L's Blu Ray/SACD combo Divertimenti, Neil's new Archive release in 10 days, several boutique label releases like SurroundMagic, etc. ).   I'd love to talk Blu Ray audio only, the coming profile 3, etc. but let's move it to the Home Theater and Multichannel forum.  I know Bryston sells amps that eventually touch SACD and Blu Ray audio signals, but that's quite a stretch.   :D

(I was gonna start a Hirez Music Forum request..maybe I still should. :)  )

Bob in St. Louis

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I'd love to talk Blu Ray audio only, the coming profile 3, etc. but let's move it to the Home Theater and Multichannel forum.
That would be fine with me. Whatever the OP and the mod of this Circle wishes is ok.
I'd love to talk about music found strictly on Bluray discs, if that is indeed the intent of the thread.

Bob - Facilitator of the Home Theater Circle

werd

Three things:
1) DXD is not Blu-Ray audio
2) DXD is the pro audio recording format used to record and give enough headroom that good editing can be done before DXD is quantized/converted to DSD (i.e SACD format..the exact one your diss'ing)
3) Why is this in a Bryston forum?

hi, ted_b!

i know that DXD is not Blu-Ray audio. i thought it would be interesting to talk about Blu-Ray audio as it seems to become an interesting format.
and i think it is ok that this topic appears in this Bryston forum.


al.

I'm still confused.  What is your point/stance?  DXD has been around for awhile and is not a format.  It is the recording algorithm for SACD's DSD recordings.  Are you arguing that it's a dying format, or that Blu Ray audio is coming (it's already here for awhile, I own a few of them, like 2L's Blu Ray/SACD combo Divertimenti, Neil's new Archive release in 10 days, several boutique label releases like SurroundMagic, etc. ).   I'd love to talk Blu Ray audio only, the coming profile 3, etc. but let's move it to the Home Theater and Multichannel forum.  I know Bryston sells amps that eventually touch SACD and Blu Ray audio signals, but that's quite a stretch.   :D

(I was gonna start a Hirez Music Forum request..maybe I still should. :)  )

Hi Ted

I dont think there are any amps that come in at 144db S/N . From what i can see they all fall in the 110 to 120db tops S/N.  If there is pst me one i would like to look at it. What ive heard on Blue Ray so far (imo) isnt even as good as what i hear from the BDA 1 in 16 bit. Mind you have i only heard the generic players that are around. But what ive heard from these players dont come close to the kinda beat that the BDA1 puts out.  Its a big reason why i tout the BDA so much is its ability to get the toes tapping (quite literally) and i dont get that listening enjoyment (so far ) from Blue Ray.  Upsampling, hirez 24 bit converter chips and all that digitil logic doesnt amount to a pile of beans if the output analogue circuitry isnt at par.

I think your idea of a high rez music forum is good idea.   :thumb:

Mag

Yes, with every new format there are enormous expectations. I once mentioned the good sound from DTS on music, didnt get much response here, no-one is interested in that.
Sacd can die, we dont need it, Blu-Ray however has potensial to be the really big thing, we just need to convince all the hardcore stereo enthusiasts that you now can get high definition sound from a 300 dollar player, and you even can get a picture with it. That will be a hard nut to crack...

I for one was hoping Blue-Ray would take off, replacing sacd. But that was only if dts used full uncompressed bite rate.
I see a few Blu-ray concert videos being released in dts. However when deciding to purchase the BCD-1, the news was that  dts wasn't being supported by Blu-ray.
 Sacd was also not being supported except for classical music. So the logical descision for me was the BCD-1, with the hope it would elevate cd playback to higher resolution.

The BCD-1 exceeded my expectations to the point that I don't really care if dts or sacd recovers their format demise. I have hundreds of cds that I can listen to now at a resolution level comparable to sacd.

ted_b

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??  DTS is quite healthy on Blu Ray.  Many of the best sounding discs are DTS HD Master Audio, full uncompressed 24/192 per channel glory.

Werd, the amp specs you mention are confusing.  I simply mentioned, tongue in cheek, that Bryston makes amps, but not enough connection to Blu Ray or DXD to warrant this discussion in their mfg forum.  But if the OP and James are fine with it, ok.  It will get significantly less traffic here, though, being slightly OT.

werd

Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2009, 03:14 am »
??  DTS is quite healthy on Blu Ray.  Many of the best sounding discs are DTS HD Master Audio, full uncompressed 24/192 per channel glory.

Werd, the amp specs you mention are confusing.  I simply mentioned, tongue in cheek, that Bryston makes amps, but not enough connection to Blu Ray or DXD to warrant this discussion in their mfg forum.  But if the OP and James are fine with it, ok.  It will get significantly less traffic here, though, being slightly OT.

Hi Ted

yes i agree it is kinda OT. The 144db is the S/N ratio required to realized the full benefits of 192/24 in any format. No manufuctures that i know of come close to this and most are in the 115 range in amps (and these are excellent numbers). Its calculated at 6db for everybit. 6 X 24 = 144db required. At 115db you are losing 4 or 5 bits in noise. It just sounded like you were giving Bryston a poke and i can see now that you werent.

Moon Doggy

Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2009, 05:38 am »
Too bad I can't play BluRay Audio Discs in a new (eg. inexpensive ..$299 Sony) BluRay player and run the 24/192 PCM Stereo signal out to my expensive DAC and use its well designed analog output. The DRM will downsample the Hi REz to 16/44 just like it does on DVD-A players. Correct? Don't really want to buy an $3000 BluRay audio player (if there is one with quality analog section available?) to play the few BluRay Audio discs available. Should be able to use my DAC IMO. Something wrong here. :? Isn't paying $40 for a BluRay Audio disc enough and shelling out $300 for a Sony BluRay player as a transport? I have digital rights too! Not to mention the right to hear the music I purchase. :nono:

launche

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Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2009, 07:51 pm »
Too bad I can't play BluRay Audio Discs in a new (eg. inexpensive ..$299 Sony) BluRay player and run the 24/192 PCM Stereo signal out to my expensive DAC and use its well designed analog output. The DRM will downsample the Hi REz to 16/44 just like it does on DVD-A players. Correct? Don't really want to buy an $3000 BluRay audio player (if there is one with quality analog section available?) to play the few BluRay Audio discs available. Should be able to use my DAC IMO. Something wrong here. :? Isn't paying $40 for a BluRay Audio disc enough and shelling out $300 for a Sony BluRay player as a transport? I have digital rights too! Not to mention the right to hear the music I purchase. :nono:

Can I say that's Sony for you.

niels

Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #13 on: 27 May 2009, 04:10 pm »
I dont think you need a 3000 dollar player. Oppo is out with a very versatile product, plays everything including sacd, and the Pioneer Elite (BF51) is pretty "cheap" also. Using the analogue out terminals to a line input on a Bryston should yield exceptional results from the new hirez formats. I just didnt have time to check out which player has the right bass management for stereo playback.
Just like my old Philips DVD963SA could play sacd, you had to use the front R/L output terminals for stereo, not the "Audio Out" since that contains a mixer, and its only meant for connection to a tv.

jethro

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Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #14 on: 30 May 2009, 03:43 pm »
I'm a bit behind in my reading.

The original thread posting is too generic for this circle.
On the otherhand, there doesn't appear to be  another appropriate circle for this thread, at least not yet. Please see ted_b's proposal for a hirez music circle in the Circle Proposal Circle. Most threads eventually end up discussing Bryston gear in this circle, but I would prefer that generic threads which don't initially mention Bryston or PMC go into more appropriate circles, or that we propose a new circle if one doesn't exist. The "rules" are pretty loose in this circle, but I would ask that people not automatically post non-bryston (PMC) in this circle without checking the existing circles for an appropriate place which results in the widest audience. I know it's a hard habit to break (myself included).

Make sure you vote on Ted_s's circle proposal:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68438.0
 

ted_b

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Re: Blu-Ray Audio, Digital Extreme Definition...brave new world?!?
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2009, 05:20 pm »
Thanks Jethro.  That's what I've been trying to say all along; thanks for the back-up...and for the support of my proposed Circle.  It's threads like this that reminded me that there are plenty of folks out there that want to discuss the on-again-of-again plight of higher resolution music.  :)

Moon Doggy

Whether to become an early adapter of Hi REZ music formats and music downloads? :scratch: The perils, frustration and expense! Would the Hi Rez Music Circle discuss Blu Ray audio and playback from computers? Or is it only music? Maybe I should read the proposal before asking.... :oops: