Help me understand hybrid cars.

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DaveC113

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #60 on: 23 Oct 2023, 08:34 pm »
You can buy a Toyota if you want, you seem to be a fanboy of them.  They make good hybrids.  But the real reason (IMO) that Japan is hedging their bets and not going all-in on EV's is that if they try to scale up BEVs right now the only country currently capable of supplying that demand is China.  Japan and China are bitter, bitter enemies and the whole Japanese car industry is (quite wisely) refusing to put themselves under China's thumb. 

If Japan suddenly discovered massive deposits of EV battery materials (like we have here in the US this past year), then I guarantee you that Japan's tune would change drastically.


I don't own a Toyota and mostly dislike their cars. Their trucks suck compared to GM and Ford imo. Their V8 gets horrific fuel economy, can't believe anyone buys them. The Tacoma has nothing in it to justify it over buying a full size GM truck. The GR86 is a very good car with a crappy Subaru motor, if they put the Turbo-3 in it I may buy one as nothing handles like an 86. I do like the new Prius and would consider one as a DD, but not right now with today's inflated car market and interest rates.

If you think the REAL reason Toyota isn't making more EVs is because of China, then I'm not sure what to say, that seems like living in conspiracy theory fantasy land.

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #61 on: 23 Oct 2023, 08:41 pm »
The USA and Russia kind of ended our cold war a decade ago.  China and Japan never have.  This is just plain old history, you can research it yourself if you want. 

Imagine if in the 80's the USA ran out of oil and had to start buying it from Russia.  I promise you, we'd have done everything in our power to not become energy dependent upon our own bitter enemy.  Japan is no different now.

mix4fix

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #62 on: 24 Oct 2023, 02:56 am »
But I am curious about the map your friend is referring to.  Let me know.

Here's the deal:
A guy paid to put a supercharger at his house. It showed up on the Tesla map (and possibly showing up on MapQuest and the like). Instead of being a decent human being, he's one of those YouTubers/social media A-holes. He leaves it on the Tesla map in order to have people drive onto his property so he can get views (and money) over it (so, not sure how long this was going on).

People are stupid. But, I hate these guys with a passion.

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #63 on: 24 Oct 2023, 03:20 am »
Here's the deal:
A guy paid to put a supercharger at his house. It showed up on the Tesla map (and possibly showing up on MapQuest and the like). Instead of being a decent human being, he's one of those YouTubers/social media A-holes. He leaves it on the Tesla map in order to have people drive onto his property so he can get views (and money) over it (so, not sure how long this was going on).

People are stupid. But, I hate these guys with a passion.

Interesting.  What's his youtube channel?

PS, I also hate 'influencers'.  What a waste.

mix4fix

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #64 on: 24 Oct 2023, 04:07 am »
Interesting.  What's his youtube channel?

PS, I also hate 'influencers'.  What a waste.

They are not "influencers". They are bullies. Let's not give them any clicks or revenue.

DaveC113

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Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #66 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:43 am »
The last paragraph...   8)

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10

You're right, GM, Toyota and Ford seem to suck at making compelling EV's and having that generate demand/sales.  However, Tesla seems to have figured it out:



This year they are on track to deliver 1.8 million vehicles.  Onwards and upwards!

Woodsage

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #67 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:30 pm »
And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”


rbbert

Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #68 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:37 pm »
Although Tesla's profits and projected profits are "taking a hit".  :nono:

There are so many factors involved here, some of which have big unknowns (e.g., battery availability to meet demand).  Nevertheless, the world now runs on electricity, and most power generating and/or recovery ("clean" or "dirty") is aimed at producing electricity.  Just getting rid of all the underground fuel tanks at gas stations around the world could result in huge environmental improvements, not even considering the reduction in production and transportation of fossil fuels.  Discussions about the cost and environmental impacts of producing more electricity in general are a separate topic IMHO.

rbbert

Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #69 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:38 pm »
And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”
Even though the likely answer is obvious and the reason I personally am unlikely to buy a Tesla... :lol:

charmerci

Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #70 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:49 pm »
Come on. You're a bunch of smart guys. You know that change doesn't come without bumps. Just because EV's aren't being swept up by everyone all the time, is not a predictor of the future. Many people resist new stuff because they have personal as well as vested interests in not changing. Widespread adoption of anything will always be resisted whether it's good or bad.

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #71 on: 27 Oct 2023, 04:34 pm »
Maybe the big 3 are finally admitting that they just aren't going to catch Tesla (at least in the short term).  Here's how things stand right now in the USA:



So if Tesla is so dominant, why are they so aggressive with their price cuts and acting like they are in a fight for their lives (even cutting margins to get prices lower) it's because of BYD and the Chinese market, which is even bigger and much more competitive than the USA for Hybrids and BEVs. 

mix4fix

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #72 on: 27 Oct 2023, 04:43 pm »
And Tesla was not invited to the EV summit at The White House. When asked why the Secretary of Transportation replied “I don’t know.”

If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.

A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #73 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:04 pm »
If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.

A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.

I think we are not supposed to talk politics so I won't say anything specific one way or the other.  But stepping back a bit and just observing history it's clear that the playing field in the US has always been stacked against Tesla (and EV's in general).  The entrenched businesses (Oil & Gas as well as automotive) have used their considerable influence to reduce EV adoption.   For obvious reasons. 

In the business culture, you can easily see it in tons of newspaper articles that are heavily biased against Tesla.  If you take a look at Tesla's actual success, it's a remarkable achievement for an American auto company to get to this level of success, from scratch.  That should be celebrated as something America is leading the world in.  But it's not.  You only ever hear about 'problems' with Tesla from the media.  It's clearly an attempt to slow down Tesla (and by extension, EV adoption) by manipulating the media. 

Now, normally I am not a 'media cannot be trusted' type of person.  I wouldn't know, because I stopped reading any and all news about 8 years ago because even back then that stuff was toxic.  When I did start to read stuff about the auto industry I was really shocked that Tesla wasn't celebrated.  Hell, not just weren't celebrated, but dumped on at every opportunity.  Then I looked at who paid for the most ads with traditional media.  Ahhhhh, now it makes sense. 

If people don't like Tesla because of stuff they've read in the media, I'm sorry but you are being manipulated and you fell for it. 

mix4fix

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #74 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:31 pm »
Although Tesla's profits and projected profits are "taking a hit".  :nono:

There are so many factors involved here, some of which have big unknowns (e.g., battery availability to meet demand).  Nevertheless, the world now runs on electricity, and most power generating and/or recovery ("clean" or "dirty") is aimed at producing electricity.  Just getting rid of all the underground fuel tanks at gas stations around the world could result in huge environmental improvements, not even considering the reduction in production and transportation of fossil fuels.  Discussions about the cost and environmental impacts of producing more electricity in general are a separate topic IMHO.

A tank in a ground isn't the problem. It's the dirty mining of battery materials, container shipping it all over the word to be processed, and the future disposal of expended batteries.

There are simple things to save the environment:
1. Don't make any unnecessary trips. Don't go to the mall just for the sake of going to the mall. Go to the mall because you have a specific item you need to buy. That does make me wonder if all those Amazon delivery trucks is really good for the environment. Or, if that automatic engine shut off when you stop at a light does any good. A hybrid makes more sense that electric in a traffic jam. Inch forward on battery power.
2. Recycle. Not just small items like plastic and aluminium. I don't know how many times I see acceptable furniture being thrown away, that a poor family could use. But, no. We throw away everything. That includes clothes that don't fit you. Give it to a church, even if you don't go to church.
3. Before anybody mentions any type public transportation, it needs to be cheaper, more reliable, expanded, and SAFER.

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #75 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:41 pm »
A tank in a ground isn't the problem. It's the dirty mining of battery materials, container shipping it all over the word to be processed, and the future disposal of expended batteries.

There are simple things to save the environment:
1. Don't make any unnecessary trips. Don't go to the mall just for the sake of going to the mall. Go to the mall because you have a specific item you need to buy. That does make me wonder if all those Amazon delivery trucks is really good for the environment. Or, if that automatic engine shut off when you stop at a light does any good. A hybrid makes more sense that electric in a traffic jam. Inch forward on battery power.
2. Recycle. Not just small items like plastic and aluminium. I don't know how many times I see acceptable furniture being thrown away, that a poor family could use. But, no. We throw away everything. That includes clothes that don't fit you. Give it to a church, even if you don't go to church.
3. Before anybody mentions any type public transportation, it needs to be cheaper, more reliable, expanded, and SAFER.

I hope it's OK if I address each of the points you bring up individually.  Some were true in the past but not any more. 

Re: mining of battery materials - it's not any more dirty than mining pretty much everything else we make.  Also, nowadays the batteries in EV's are highly recyclable, between 80 and 90% - https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/are-electric-car-batteries-recyclable

Re: electric cars in a traffic jam, it's actually MUCH better to be in an EV in a traffic jam.  A gas or hybrid can only run the engine for a few hours before it runs out of gas, even starting from a full tank.  An EV that's not moving (or just inching along) can run the environmental controls for several days.  You can see this for yourself with people on youtube going camping in their Teslas and running the heater several nights in a row to keep them warm. 

All the rest of your points - I completely agree with you!

Early B.

Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #76 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:44 pm »
EV is here to stay (whether you agree or not) and Tesla is "too big to fail." They've always been heavily supported by the US government and various state governments. Not political, just facts:

02/15/2023 -- "The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/tesla-takes-biden-7-5b-subsidy-agrees-open-charging-network-white-house-says
https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc

SpaceX, too:  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-spacex-tesla-far-170500028.html#:~:text=Notably%2C%20the%20auto%20company%20received,vehicles%20by%20%244%2C000%20to%20%247%2C500.

If you think Tesla is losing money by slashing prices, think again.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-taps-biden-tax-credits-offset-ev-price-cuts-2023-07-21/

DaveC113

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #77 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:48 pm »
If people really cared having electric vehicles, you would go all out. Excluding Tesla is politically motivated. It's picking winners and losers.

A dumb actress doing that is stupid, and politicians doing that is evil.

No, not when the guy in charge has picked sides and is doing all they can to promote one of them just to spite the other. Elon is a complete idiot for getting into politics, but much of what he does is idiotic. Populating Mars? Really? I also give him a lot of credit and admire him for what he's accomplished too, but he's his own worst enemy.

The fact the US gov't is giving out tax credits so rich folks can buy EVs is one of the worst things about the whole deal. You can credit the gov't for much of Tesla's success despite the recent snub.


Lol @Tyson you completely missed the point of the article I posted. It's not all about Tesla all the time. Nobody is recycling EV batteries either. Cobalt is especially bad as far as mining, it's mostly slave and child labor there. Rare earths also take up incredible amount of space and water. Mining this stuff IS much worse than many other things. Interesting you're always on the pro-EV everything and pro-Tesla side after buying a Tesla. Biased much?  :lol:   You can't seem to see or even consider any other POV.


mix4fix

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #78 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:50 pm »
I think we are not supposed to talk politics so I won't say anything specific one way or the other.  But stepping back a bit and just observing history it's clear that the playing field in the US has always been stacked against Tesla (and EV's in general).  The entrenched businesses (Oil & Gas as well as automotive) have used their considerable influence to reduce EV adoption.   For obvious reasons. 

In the business culture, you can easily see it in tons of newspaper articles that are heavily biased against Tesla.  If you take a look at Tesla's actual success, it's a remarkable achievement for an American auto company to get to this level of success, from scratch.  That should be celebrated as something America is leading the world in.  But it's not.  You only ever hear about 'problems' with Tesla from the media.  It's clearly an attempt to slow down Tesla (and by extension, EV adoption) by manipulating the media. 

Now, normally I am not a 'media cannot be trusted' type of person.  I wouldn't know, because I stopped reading any and all news about 8 years ago because even back then that stuff was toxic.  When I did start to read stuff about the auto industry I was really shocked that Tesla wasn't celebrated.  Hell, not just weren't celebrated, but dumped on at every opportunity.  Then I looked at who paid for the most ads with traditional media.  Ahhhhh, now it makes sense. 

If people don't like Tesla because of stuff they've read in the media, I'm sorry but you are being manipulated and you fell for it.

The only things I will fault Elon on is paying too much for Twitter, and get involved with Grimes. I knew that relationship wasn't going to last. I like some of her music, but I wouldn't knock her up fort it!

Tyson

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Re: Help me understand hybrid cars.
« Reply #79 on: 27 Oct 2023, 06:05 pm »
No, not when the guy in charge has picked sides and is doing all they can to promote one of them just to spite the other. Elon is a complete idiot for getting into politics, but much of what he does is idiotic. Populating Mars? Really? I also give him a lot of credit and admire him for what he's accomplished too, but he's his own worst enemy.

The fact the US gov't is giving out tax credits so rich folks can buy EVs is one of the worst things about the whole deal. You can credit the gov't for much of Tesla's success despite the recent snub.


Lol @Tyson you completely missed the point of the article I posted. It's not all about Tesla all the time. Nobody is recycling EV batteries either. Cobalt is especially bad as far as mining, it's mostly slave and child labor there. Rare earths also take up incredible amount of space and water. Mining this stuff IS much worse than many other things. Interesting you're always on the pro-EV everything and pro-Tesla side after buying a Tesla. Biased much?  :lol:   You can't seem to see or even consider any other POV.



Actually you are wrong, once again.  Batteries are being recycled, by businesses, for profit, already:

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/

The only hiccup they are experiencing is the EV batteries are lasting MUCH LONGER than they originally anticpated so there's less to recycle at the moment.  But it is happening and it is scaling up quickly.

Re: child labor, I assume you are talking about cobalt?  If so, you are fine to criticize batteries for containing cobalt.  Personally I don't care as most of the things we make have to be dug up and most of it is unhealthy.  I am just being consistent.  I care more about having a modern lifestyle than I care about the cost.  That's true of oil, gas, steel, lithium, copper, all of it.  You might cry for cobalt miners but if you do that then you need to cry about ALL mining.  Otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.