[neobop]

There is only one set of numbers to achieve a Lofgren B on a Technics SL1200/1210 to get to the null points of 70.285 and 116.604. That requires a overhang of 18.282, for a total stylus to pivot length of 233.282mm. This also puts the offset angle at 23.613°. Those are the absolute numbers for 215mm spindle to tonearm table. There are no "little farther ahead" movements.
Wayner

What I said is confirmed by your post. The key words being compared to other standard alignments. Stock overhang with nulls at 58.5/113.5 requires a 15mm overhang. Loefgren A or B require greater overhang or the cart being further forward in the headshell.

This is getting a little silly isn't it?  OP has already decided to sell one of his 1200 tables and try something else. Maybe he'd like the P5 w/speed box, I don't know. What do you think about that?
neo

[woodsyi]

Successful marriage means knowing when to tune in and when to tune out your spouse.  Sometimes it's like that on AC too.

I tuned out a couple of pages back.

[Wayner]

This thread, as most should be about facts. When one guy across the pond slams Technics tables, and I'm betting he's never owned one, but presents his information as fact, is a dis-service to the newbies here at AC, as well as other owner of the SL series.

Now if he would have done a physical audition of the TT and then pronounced his findings, I'd give it some merit, but the posts remind me of something Thurston Howell the Third would say to Lovey. It's a yacht club review.

The Technics SL1200 series are fine turntables. If they ended up as a favorite DJ table, that is because they are built like a tank and can take the punishment other tables may not be able to handle. They are also quite compatible with many cartridges and the combo certainly can be a good bang for the buck.

I understand 2Gumby's wants to try another table. I think this is just a natural next step for folks that have been into vinyl for awhile. I'm thinking of the VPI Classic 3.

Did the thread get off course? Yes, but so do many.

Wayner

[doug s.]

wayner, i think rim is referring to the cartridge alignment thing, (which i also tuned out), not the technics thing.   i am into selective tuning/detuning...

doug s.

[LM]

LM,
You really shouldn't take offense. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.

Both Gumby and Joe are considering moving on. Maybe you could offer your opinion or experience about that.

Hi Neo,

I really didn’t intend posting again on this matter as I’d said what I felt I needed to say and didn’t want this to derail the thread any further.  However, you’ve raised a relevant point about responding to Gumby and Joe. Also, I thought I quite clearly made the point, twice, in my original post that bas was perfectly entitled to his opinion about the TT and I had no issue with him having it even if I largely disagree so sorry if that was not clear.

I was about to post on my experience when Bas’s post appeared.  (I’m in Oz and the time delay often thwarts continuity in forum discussions for me). The reason I then didn’t post on the original subject was that I felt that any pro 1200 comments at that point could be interpreted as biased rather than part of a balanced consideration and I was not interested in going down a seemingly defensive rather than balanced path.  That’s just me but it’s why I was frustrated enough to voice my concerns with the wording.

If you are right in your concerns about problems with English as a second language, I’m sure that bas will be horrified that he may have been misinterpreted and never meant to imply that the people who chose the 1200 were in any way deluded.  Now I really am done with my 'bitch' and will go back to the intent of the thread.

[2gumby2]

This thread has been a great discussion. I sent SOTA an e-mail last weekend asking them to tell me how their Comet would be significantly better than the Rega RP3 since the Comet costs $400 more. They never responded.
   From what I've read, the Rega RP3 is very easy to set up when using a Rega cartridge. This certainly has value when you can get a vinyl rig set up without much hassle.

[neobop]

Gumby,
I'm not sure if Sota will respond to a question like that, at least not in a way that will tell you much. Old school marketing - don't disparage a competiting product, tell the advantages of your product. What are they going to say, Rega is a POS?

Isn't the sale on the P5? From what I've read that's the better one with the RB700, and better everything else. Have you looked for any reviews? It might not be such a long shot to find one that talks about other tables in the price range. If set-up is a big concern, call Needle Dr or Audio Advisor. They both have sales on the table and will probably set it up if you buy a cart. If you're using your old one, we'll help you get through it.

I don't think anyone can tell you what table you'll like the most. Different people value different aspects. You see the strong opinions here. Just to mess with your head, I've read that the Origin Live Aurora II is really nice. I'm not sure if the price includes the arm.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Origin-Live-Aurora-MKII-Turntable?sc=2&category=45

http://www.audiorevelation.com/cre/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=243

neo

[bastlnut]

hallo,

my post was only my opinion, and as pointed out, absolutely not personal.
Rega did not start out as hyped, just better musically. history shows that was and still is well regarded by a wide selection of music listeners, both in the business and consumers alike.
the SL 1200 is just a tool, in my opinion, and the plinth is overdamped with materials that suck the life out of the music...my words.
it is not a reference for me, i have one so i can listen to it if i want to. i bought it new and have modded it and returned it to original again.
it is simply not good enough to be used as a reference by me.

i observed the speed deviation in a second hand record store when listening to a disc before buying.
the FL lighting showed that the platter was running fast when the built in strobo showed it spot on.
i had to slow it down with the fader to about minus 1% for the markings to stop moving.
the AC i also measured and it was 0,01% off....not even close to the 1% variance i observed.
the music also sounded more naturally pitched as well. i set speed by ear and it is usually right on when i measure it after, so i know what i am saying.

don't get me started on wavering tones, because i don't think that the TT is the cause most of the time anyways. this is another story and another thread if anyone wants to start such a thread....i will not!   

about alignment....
i said that i use the Loefgren B points as a reference.
it is very clear to me that if i deviate from them, the null points are no longer Loefgren B nulls.
i do this because i hear a better result. there are a lot of possibilities in getting the cartridge set-up to sound good if not great.
some arms will not let you move the cartridge far enough forward/back, so offset can be used to compensate....the reverse is true as well.
if one does not wish to tweak, or does not trust him/herself to vary from a norm, then staying with given points is a acceptable option and one gets very good results as well.

i do not dislike the Technics, but i also don't consider it very good either.
my comments are the result of the praises it gets being an inferior product.

regards,
bas

[doug s.]

...Rega did not start out as hyped, just better musically. history shows that was and still is well regarded by a wide selection of music listeners, both in the business and consumers alike....

reasonable persons can agree to disagree.   

while i am pretty certain no scientific survey has been done, i do know that, according to those who have listened to both, at least as many prefer the technics.  ie: they think it is "better musically".  there is no right or wrong here, imo.

like you, i do not dislike the entry-level rega, but i also don't consider it very good either.
my comments are the result of the praises it gets being an inferior product. 

ymmv,

doug s.

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i forgot to add....
i don't consider the Rega P3 good enough either, and it too runs fast.
a reference should be something good.

regards,
bas

[blakep]

Don't mean to start another debate, but I do find it hard to believe. I remember you mentioned that you bought your Empire in about 1974, that makes those grommet isolators over 30 years old. The rubber may not appear to be dry, hard, or cracked, and they may still appear to be pliable and soft, but the isolating property of them probably have deteriorated quite a bit. The Empire motor does make noise, it's the question of if the noise will get transfered to the tonearm pick up or not. I 've helped  a hundred maybe more people all over the world, I mean all over the world, getting rid of that noise and all have positive result.

A great tweak for the Empires (or any other older table using an A/C synchronous motor without an upgraded power supply for that matter) is to run the table off a variable output transformer and, once powered up and revolving, drop the voltage down from 120 to around 70. If you don't think the Papst is noisy and that noise and vibration degrades sound quality, you will find out very quickly that it does.

Harry Weisfeld from VPI actually put me on to this tweak through a post of his at the Audio Asylum. I'd been considering an upgraded power supply for my Gyrodec for years but could never bring myself to spend the money ($500+, ranging to $1500 for a complete DC conversion and top of the line power supply).

For $50, or about $90 including shipping if you need it, you'll be surprised at the improvement. Keep in mind that this is exactly what power supplies like the VPI SDS and Linn Lingo do. Granted they will be doing some other things as well and they are, in essence, fully "automated", but the drop in voltage is at the heart of what they do in terms of enhancing performance.

I actually called Harry to thank him personally for the advice. A very nice guy.

http://www.kelinginc.net/VariableACOutputTransformer.html

[2gumby2]

Gumby,
I'm not sure if Sota will respond to a question like that, at least not in a way that will tell you much. Old school marketing - don't disparage a competiting product, tell the advantages of your product. What are they going to say, Rega is a POS?

Isn't the sale on the P5? From what I've read that's the better one with the RB700, and better everything else. Have you looked for any reviews? It might not be such a long shot to find one that talks about other tables in the price range. If set-up is a big concern, call Needle Dr or Audio Advisor. They both have sales on the table and will probably set it up if you buy a cart. If you're using your old one, we'll help you get through it.

I don't think anyone can tell you what table you'll like the most. Different people value different aspects. You see the strong opinions here. Just to mess with your head, I've read that the Origin Live Aurora II is really nice. I'm not sure if the price includes the arm.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Origin-Live-Aurora-MKII-Turntable?sc=2&category=45

http://www.audiorevelation.com/cre/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=243

neo

I wasn't expecting SOTA to disparage their competition, but was hoping that they would provide information on why their technology might be superior since the Comet is $400 more than the RP3. They appear to have different approaches to design and I was interested in a comparison. I think the Comet uses a Rega arm so I'm sure they respect Rega's arm designs.

[doug s.]

I wasn't expecting SOTA to disparage their competition, but was hoping that they would provide information on why their technology might be superior since the Comet is $400 more than the RP3. They appear to have different approaches to design and I was interested in a comparison. I think the Comet uses a Rega arm so I'm sure they respect Rega's arm designs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140630230691
http://www.use.com/2c7fe89731d7fd7d6cb8?p=1


sell the arm, later:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110763209369

doug s.

[tomytoons]

That 208 may sound good, but I sure as hell would not want to look at that.
Some are purdy that one aint'.
But that's me.
Let me add, that Wayne I think has a nice one.

[HalSF]

hallo,

i forgot to add....
i don't consider the Rega P3 good enough either, and it too runs fast.
a reference should be something good.

regards,
bas

This slagging of Rega P3s that “run too fast” and aren’t “something good” reflects an invidious audiophile myth at best and at worst a fairly reckless slander of a turntable that’s given thousands of hi-fi consumers great and enduring pleasure for a non-megabucks cost.

This kind of casual, tossed-off, categorical dismissal is one of the least pleasant things I’m continuously encountering in the otherwise helpful and enthusiasm-based exchanges on forums like AudioCircle. It’s often perpetrated in the defense of that holy of holies, “reference” components, as it is in this example. I don’t mind tough comparisons or strong criticism of products ant brands if the critic backs it up with solid evidence — that’s a fair fight. But I’ve run into multiple dubious drive-by put-downs for every piece of gear I’ve owned. I don’t get the poser appeal of doing that. I’m sure bastinut didn’t mean to come off as mean-spirited — he was probably just in a hurry to add a postscript — but still...

Michael Fremer’s P3-24 rave ran on the cover of Stereophile in 2008. PDF link: http://www.sigsound.com/PDFs/P3_24Stereophile7_08%20.pdf

This thread debunks the P3 speed myth nicely: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-308209.html

[tomytoons]

This slagging of Rega P3s that “run too fast” and aren’t “something good” reflects an invidious audiophile myth at best and at worst a fairly reckless slander of a turntable that’s given thousands of hi-fi consumers great and enduring pleasure for a non-megabucks cost.

I have had 2 P3's and now a blown out P5 and never had a speed issue.
I have had speed issues with a VIP HW19 MKIII though.

Rega has been around quite awhile and probably sold as many tables as the Technics. Hey, Rega is still producing too.

I don't bother with this BS from the "so called experts here". I'm quoting myself again. I also don't like misinformation.

Carry on.

[TomS]

That 208 may sound good, but I sure as hell would not want to look at that.
Some are purdy that one aint'.
But that's me.
Let me add, that Wayne I think has a nice one.

.... or for a 208 donor +$4100 +tone arm ($5k Tri-Planar like this) you could have one of these

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#Atma-208

[LM]

I've got room in one of my 2-channel systems for another turntable. I've always owned Technics direct drive turntables in the past, but I'm considering giving belt drive a try out of curiosity.

2gumby2,

To get back to your original question – I can only say why not.  If you have an itch you may as well scratch it but I would certainly advise you to keep the KAB Technics.  This is firstly for comparison and secondly if you want to go back after your curiosity is satisfied, they might have become costly or hard to find.

I’ve done it the opposite way to you.  I had (still have) an ARXB that I’ve owned from new.  I’d been though it with a fine toothcomb and it was/is in perfect order but I wanted to see what the 1200 DD ‘hype’ was about before considering upgrading the XB (arm etc,) or looking at other belt drives.  Managed to find a brand new 1210, have modified it somewhat and love it.  It’s become my main TT but that’s rather irrelevant to this post.  What I found is that aspects of their performance and the resultant musical presentation style of the two decks were different, even in my common system and room and with the same cartridge fitted.  Neither is perfect and each has its strengths and weaknesses (or perhaps differences is closer to the truth).  In the end, I formed a strong preference but it only came about through scratching the itch and having a good long listen.

As to the exact TT you choose, this is much harder and I personally couldn’t answer the Sota/P5 question.  One or the other may become a new love, or be a disappointment.  Put it this way.  I have half a dozen friends with TT’s that I have listened to extensively over the years and they range (in cost) from Rega P3/24 to 7 or 8 times that price.  Most I wouldn’t swap for my 1210 but there are two that I might and one of them is a belt drive.  What it is will remain my secret though as I don’t wish to be accused of DD heresy.

[doug s.]

That 208 may sound good, but I sure as hell would not want to look at that.
Some are purdy that one aint'.
But that's me.
Let me add, that Wayne I think has a nice one.

personally, i love the looks of the older empires.  even tho i think the later 598's like wayner's are also beauteous.  different horses for different courses...

this one has an issue w/its headshell finish coming off.  which wouldn't bother me, cuz it's an easy re-finish job, and i would be replacing it anyway as my first upgrade.

doug s.

[doug s.]

.... or for a 208 donor +$4100 +tone arm ($5k Tri-Planar like this) you could have one of these

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#Atma-208

atmosphere wouldn't have gone and machined a plinth out of solid billet if the 208 were not an over-achiever in the first place.  personally, i think quality results can be obtained w/damping the original plinth and building a substantial base, for a bit less coin.  even tho i do love the simple appearance of the factory-style base...

not that this thing isn't also a thing of beauty...






doug s.