AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: davidwat on 12 Jul 2014, 02:09 am
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Before I sell these bassless wonders, does GR research have ideas about well controlled subs for relatively extended bass? I suspect I need to start at 100hz or so I don't need great spl's or massive deep bass, but they need to be fast to match with these electrostatics. I suspect I'll need two.
Thanks,
David - Dallas
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We have the fastest and most controlled subs money can buy, and they will match perfectly with the Martin-Logans.
I have 12' and 8" woofers designed specifically for open baffle applications and have servo control. And the 12's will play flat to 20Hz and -3db down in the teens.
And if you are in Dallas, then you are 2 hours away from a demo of them.
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Danny, do you still make an 8" OB servo sub kit? Do you have specs to compare to 12 "?
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To match those Martin Logans I'd recommend H-Frames with three SW-12-16FR drivers per side. If your preamp has balanced outputs (or you think you might get one that does, use the A370-XLR2 amps otherwise you can use either the A370PEQ or A370PEQ3. Absolutely, hands down the best bass you will find to match your Martin Logans.
Even if the 8" OB drivers (SW-08-16FR) are available, go with the 12's. You won't regret it.
Mike
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The GR Research subs do a better job with electrostic speakers than the Martin Logan subs (or bass drivers) :lol:
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You came to the right place!
Ben
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Just a suggestion from a CLSZ2 owner...let the Logan’s run full range and bring the sub in at 40-45 hz.
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Can a 2x8, 3x8 ( ?), or 2x12 w-frame setup be placed on its side to serve as a stand for the M-L CLS2 without compromising sound?
Davd -Dallas
Edited addition. The cls2a's measure width 28in x depth 14.5 in at the base.
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Can a 2x8, 3x8 ( ?), or 2x12 w-frame setup be placed on its side to serve as a stand for the M-L CLS2 without compromising sound?
Davd -Dallas
Edited addition. The cls2a's measure width 28in x depth 14.5 in at the base.
Sure, you can do that. A couple of the 12's will be good.
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Can a 2x8, 3x8 ( ?), or 2x12 w-frame setup be placed on its side to serve as a stand for the M-L CLS2 without compromising sound?
Davd -Dallas
Edited addition. The cls2a's measure width 28in x depth 14.5 in at the base.
Our flat packs are 30"x19"x17d with base and top. Without base & top, you're at 27x16x14 so, if you flipped it on it's side, you have a 27 x14" flat surface between the "end plates" .
Here's a couple pics of a customers setup
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182596)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182597)
If you were to cut off the "flipped uppper edge" of each top / base, and didn't mind dealing with the seams, you'd end up witha 30" x 14" surface for the speakers to sit on.
If you're building these yourself, I think you'd be ok adding .5" to both the front/rear to make it 15" .
jay
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Martin Logan 'Balanced Force' would work nicely, all depends on your budget
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Open baffle electrostatics deserve open baffle bass.
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Thanks, guys.
Do I need to worry about frame vibration/resonance or just pick materials and thickness that will be strong enough to support the drivers and the CLS2a's on top of them?
Will a simple H with a top be enough?
Do I need to stew about coupling to my slightly jouncy hardwood floor?
David - Dallas
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yeah, material is important, the 12" servo subs will load even an open baffle cabinet quite signifigantly. We use 1.5" MDF for the side panels, you could laminate 2 .75" sheets to achieve this if you can't source 1.5" ( I kind of doubt it). We also use 1" baffles/braces ( I like to build them like brick you know what's !) although, .75" will do. Our non-modular subs also use 1.5" tops/bases while the modular design use 1.25" side panels, tops and bases , 1" baffles, and .625" module uppper/lower plates which bolt to the next module l .625" bottom plate.
The material used in our modular design is Medex which is slightly denser than reg MDF so we felt we'd get away with the 1.25 in lieu of 1.5" ( can't get the 1.5" in Medex).
Even at that, it's still recommended to line the cabinets with no-rez
jay
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Open baffle electrostatics deserve open baffle bass.
??? explain please ......
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Thanks, guys.
Do I need to worry about frame vibration/resonance or just pick materials and thickness that will be strong enough to support the drivers and the CLS2a's on top of them?
Will a simple H with a top be enough?
Do I need to stew about coupling to my slightly jouncy hardwood floor?
David - Dallas
What makes you think subs located beneath your CLS's is the best location for your room ? Have thought about better 'anchoring / bracing' of the CLS's themselves ?
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The m-L's beam a bit, and many suggest they sound better or provide room sound better if elevated a foot or so. They are already big and I would like to not increase the speaker footprint in my room if possible.
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What are the acoustic implications of an H- baffle tilted at a 45 deg angle and placed sideways on the floor? Making the baffle the hypotenuse of an equilateral triangle would shave 3-4 inches off the vertical dimensions. Would carpet alter the sound?
thanks,
David - Dallas
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Hi David, You should look up and research TBI subs. There is one for sale in the trading post today [I don't know the seller] but the price is good.
Have fun, Tish
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What are the acoustic implications of an H- baffle tilted at a 45 deg angle and placed sideways on the floor? Making the baffle the hypotenuse of an equilateral triangle would shave 3-4 inches off the vertical dimensions. Would carpet alter the sound?
thanks,
David - Dallas
That sounsd like a W frame instead of an H frame.
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http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/obsub.pdf
jay
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??? explain please ......
Sure - one of the main reasons that OB speakers (planars or cone based) don't blend well with sealed woofers/subs is that they load the room in different ways. The OB upper portion (mids/highs) loads the room in a figure 8 pattern, most energy going forward and backward and nulls at the side. A sealed woofer does NOT radiate in a figure 8 pattern, it acts as a pulsing sphere. This loads the room in a very, very different manner than the OB top section. Hence, they never, ever sound seamless. Even with a nicely built sealed box. Even with servo control. Box bass just physically propagates differently than the top part of the speaker.
On the other hand, OB bass radiates in a figure 8 pattern, matching exactly the pattern of the top section. So you get a much better match because of, you know, physics.
A nice side benefit - if you're using the woofers for mid bass or upper bass, it's a lot easier to keep the drivers physically close to the mids/highs drivers, whereas with sealed woofers, they tend to sound best in the corners or along the side walls due to how they load the room.
Ah, and I'll also stipulate that this applies less to very deep bass like 20hz-40hz. For that range, a sealed sub works wonders. Anything above 40hz though and you really should be using OB bass to match the OB mids/highs.
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"That sounds like a W frame instead of an H frame."
Except that the W frame reduces the long dimension of the frame while I am trying to reduce the height of the unit when laid on its side. The result is that the front of one speaker and the back of the other point at the ground.
Danny seems to have answered part of my questions elsewhere.
<https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=158660.msg1694776#msg1694776>
David - Dallas
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182732)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182733)
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Not sure how much you’d save. You have to have enough room to get the drivers in
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Sure - one of the main reasons that OB speakers (planars or cone based) don't blend well with sealed woofers/subs is that they load the room in different ways. The OB upper portion (mids/highs) loads the room in a figure 8 pattern, most energy going forward and backward and nulls at the side. A sealed woofer does NOT radiate in a figure 8 pattern, it acts as a pulsing sphere. This loads the room in a very, very different manner than the OB top section. Hence, they never, ever sound seamless. Even with a nicely built sealed box. Even with servo control. Box bass just physically propagates differently than the top part of the speaker.
On the other hand, OB bass radiates in a figure 8 pattern, matching exactly the pattern of the top section. So you get a much better match because of, you know, physics.
A nice side benefit - if you're using the woofers for mid bass or upper bass, it's a lot easier to keep the drivers physically close to the mids/highs drivers, whereas with sealed woofers, they tend to sound best in the corners or along the side walls due to how they load the room.
Ah, and I'll also stipulate that this applies less to very deep bass like 20hz-40hz. For that range, a sealed sub works wonders. Anything above 40hz though and you really should be using OB bass to match the OB mids/highs.
Tyson,
thanks for your explanation. As for the CLX's, depending room acoustics they are capable down as low as 40hz, so a sealed sub would and or could do quite nicely I suspect. I've listened to them with a pair of ML Descent i's rolled in around 50hz and it sounded superb !