AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Home Improvements and Renovations => Topic started by: macrojack on 15 Mar 2015, 10:17 pm
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Last November I had a PV System installed on my roof. The total cost was about $12,000 for the parts labor and permits. I also elected to upgrade my service panel to 200 amps prior to the install and that cost about $1200. As a bundle that will afford me about $4000 in tax credits, leaving just over $9000 to make up in electric production. There is an unknown equity gain in the property and there will be monthly rebates from Xcel Energy, my electric provider. There will also be an annual increase in the value of the juice I'm not paying for. All in all, the projection has it that I will pay off my 4320 kw system in 6-7 years with savings and rebates.
I'm very happy with my system and I just love my real time production monitoring software.
Out here in Colorado a lot of people have taken advantage of lowered prices and tax credits to switch over to solar. That makes me wonder why I have seen so little discussion on this site about the topic. Seems like a tech crowd like you guys would be all over this. Why aren't you?
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Yes, am thinking about a PV system, even here in Michigan (the cloudest winter state), but our utilities are required to buy excess power from residential sources. 30% federal tax credit ends 12/31/2016. We can add a frame to a 2nd story south facing section of the house to hold 18 panels that will provide shade on part of the deck, blend in perfectly with the roof line, and avoid roof penetrations. (I designed our EPA 5 star house, "the house," 10 years ago with this in mind.) We already have a 200 amp service but want to do some upgrades to our 1,000 square foot deck with this work, so estimated cost is $15,000 with 12 year payback (not great for sure), and nearly eliminate our electrical bill. Being recently retired, eliminating bills is attractive. I might even add a whole house automatic generator too, so as we age we won't worry about being able to pull start a portable generator.
Why there isn't more interest in solar: People don't have long-term perspectives; they'd rather put the money into other things; lack of sunlight in many locations; lack of utility/state incentives; site/house design restrictions; technology keeps improving so they wait; and better net energy savings available with more insulation/better windows/etc.
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Also - the power companies don't like independent solar. NPR says they are working on repealing the credits/deductions. Given that it will probably won't go very far, they are going towards increasing the rates for non-solar homes to compensate. Now's a good time to get it done.
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I had mine done when the house was being built a couple of years ago. The panels are integrated into the roof tile.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=97858)
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The 30% tax credit snuck into law as part of the stimulus package. As JLM pointed out, it sunsets (pun?) at the end of 2016 and most assuredly will not be extended given the current trend of our elections. I'm still trying to find out if we can apply our credit after the 2016 tax year.
Retirement planning was my reason for going into the solar installation. I would really urge people to do this as early in life as you can. Sometime after 2020, when this installation has paid for itself, I will be looking at free electricity for the rest of my life. However, I will be 73 by then so there are questions about just how long after that I will benefit.
According to my info, the system should perform 80% of what it does now after 25 years and continue an unknown period of time after that. If you are in your 50s and stay in your house for the rest of your life, the payback should be enormous. One caution though, make sure your roof has a lot of years ahead before installing panels on it. If you have the land available, it can be a better idea to install on racks on the ground or on a metal roofed outbuilding.
Phil - I see a palm tree in your photo. Those usually exist in places that are subject to high winds. Is that why your panels are embedded? Or did you do that just for aesthetics?
Chamerci - Here in Colorado the state legislature requires that energy providers source 30% of their electricity from renewable sources. Rather than bear the cost of that installation themselves, they instituted their grid-tie program which allows for them to dictate limitations on the size and design of your install. This shifted the cost of hardware to the consumer. However, in order to get the ball rolling before the imposition of the mandate, they offered incentives to stimulate participation. Once the momentum was established and the quota was in sight, a rollback began. Initially they were offering something like 12 cents per month rebate for each watt of your system rating. Since it has been systematically reduced. I'm receiving 3 cents and have learned recently that now they offer only 2 cents.
The power company did the right thing in encouraging the use of solar but only because the government forced them to.
Fossil fuels are a finite resource. Arguments persist about how finite, but there can be no argument about the inevitability of universally dry wells. I think it might be a good idea to stop drawing it while there is still some down there. We are not required to use up every last drop. This, of course, indicates that an alternative source of energy will be needed. So when do we start to respond to this impending need ........ now? ...... or at the last possible minute when we are at our ripest for exploitation?
While I'm not actually independent, I have a very comforting sense of independence in knowing that I can produce my own electricity -- and if I were to switch to batteries, I could liberate myself from this one facet of corporate domination. Batteries, unfortunately don't seem to be at all practical as an alternative to grid tie at this time. And BTW, when you are grid-tied, your system goes down along with everyone else's in a power failure.
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Phil - I see a palm tree in your photo. Those usually exist in places that are subject to high winds. Is that why your panels are embedded? Or did you do that just for aesthetics?
They do it on new construction for aesthetics (here's a gallery of some stuff done by my builder - including mine http://www.buildingalifestyle.com/gallery-of-solar-powered-homes/). I'm not in a high risk hurricane zone in FL. Probably last (category 1) to hit near where I am was 20 years ago and the one before that was 1949. Panels power to run. I have a generator panel and a back-up gasoline generator which I can wheel outside on a concrete slab and run lights, fridge, etc., and keep enough on hand during the peak season (and test it now and then) to keep it running for a bit.
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I installed a 6.5kw system for my home 6 years ago when my average electric bill was $300/month. Since then, it has been near $0.00 and sometimes even money back. A similar system today will cost about $12,000 for materials, no labor. If you have typical homeowner skills, you can install it yourself. With some online research, you can find the technical info and advice necessary. Simply hire a qualified electrician to do the final hook-up. I am totally pleased with my investment, and highly recommend it. In fact I will soon install another system on another property.
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Also - the power companies don't like independent solar. NPR says they are working on repealing the credits/deductions. Given that it will probably won't go very far, they are going towards increasing the rates for non-solar homes to compensate. Now's a good time to get it done.
Distributed power is the future--especially as better storage technologies come along. Utilities could still make money by shifting there focus to installation and maintenance of distributed power plants, but they don't seem to be showing much interest in modifying their business model.
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I live in an all-electric house. Built when the local (now long-mothballed) nuke plant was supposed to provide electricity at next to no cost. :duh: But due to my conservative living my annual bill is less than $1000 total and that includes a large pool. Most people would find my home uncomfortably warm or cold seasonally. Payback for me would be doubtful. I already have my best roof exposure covered with pool solar panels.
I do not worry that there is a finite source of carbon in the ground. What worries me is that long before we run out of carbon the atmosphere will be beyond repair. So thank you to all solar panel users. :thumb:
One thing to think about is your lifestyle. People who are retired or have one person home during the day will benefit most from solar electric. I have a friend who just installed a system. He loves it but explained to me how their habits have changed. Excess electricity they sell to the local power company is much less per kwh than electricity they purchase. Therefore they do cooking, laundry, and pool filtering during the day when they are producing enough energy to cover those requirements. Here in central CA that would normally be a no-no during the summer peak A/C hours. So if you are considering solar and wonder about payback, consider your lifestyle. Will you be able to maximize the potential benefits?
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I live in an all-electric house. Built when the local (now long-mothballed) nuke plant was supposed to provide electricity at next to no cost. :duh: But due to my conservative living my annual bill is less than $1000 total and that includes a large pool. Most people would find my home uncomfortably warm or cold seasonally. Payback for me would be doubtful. I already have my best roof exposure covered with pool solar panels.
I do not worry that there is a finite source of carbon in the ground. What worries me is that long before we run out of carbon the atmosphere will be beyond repair. So thank you to all solar panel users. :thumb:
One thing to think about is your lifestyle. People who are retired or have one person home during the day will benefit most from solar electric. I have a friend who just installed a system. He loves it but explained to me how their habits have changed. Excess electricity they sell to the local power company is much less per kwh than electricity they purchase. Therefore they do cooking, laundry, and pool filtering during the day when they are producing enough energy to cover those requirements. Here in central CA that would normally be a no-no during the summer peak A/C hours. So if you are considering solar and wonder about payback, consider your lifestyle. Will you be able to maximize the potential benefits?
Absolutely. And good for you Don_S. Most people don't realize that if stopped adding human-produced carbon dioxide to the atmosphere today, it would take centuries for levels to stabilize and begin falling (assuming the permafrost doesn't melt or the oceans don't stop working as an effective carbon sink).
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Power companies might not like lots of things like - http://www.bloomenergy.com/
For now they don't have something cost effective for a homeowner. However, if they get the cost of the technology down, power companies won't be overly happy (the way cable companies don't like HBO being sold via the web).
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Power companies might not like lots of things like - http://www.bloomenergy.com/
For now they don't have something cost effective for a homeowner. However, if they get the cost of the technology down, power companies won't be overly happy (the way cable companies don't like HBO being sold via the web).
Yo-Power to the People-Right on. (http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608012634820576644&pid=15.1&rs=1&c=1&w=190&h=106)
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I know when Bloom Energy started out they were touting a goal of a $3,000 unit (that was not all that large) that would sit in one's backyard and powering an average European house and two would power an average American House. I have not followed it closely since then and that was a few years back. I decided to do the solar plunge on the current house (which I had built and closed on in April 2013 and then moved into several months later) and figured after 8-9 years between resale value of the house and savings/tax credits it's a break even proposition. So a half dozen more years and it's nothing to have second thoughts on.
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I'm still thinking about it. We moved from Portland, OR, where electricity is pretty cheap, to the Bay Area, where every month the PG&E bill is a shock. Here on the tiered billing plan there are a couple keys to reducing costs--1) get an electric vehicle, which significantly reduces the top rate payed for electricity, and 2) install solar to keep consumption down to the 1st or 2nd billing tier. A buddy of mine installed solar at his place (bought and paid for, not leased or some other arrangement), and his electric bill is typically zero to small double digits. He figures an 8 year return (including tax credits), after which he'll be making money.
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Distributed power is the future--especially as better storage technologies come along. Utilities could still make money by shifting there focus to installation and maintenance of distributed power plants, but they don't seem to be showing much interest in modifying their business model.
On-site power production has huge advantages. 70% of all power from power plants is wasted in transmission losses. Lots of efforts spent maintaining power lines (and where nearly all utility outages originate). On this nice mild sunny morning we lost power for an hour, but the current cost of being fully independent via solar is high (batteries or fuel cell, and for how long?). That's why I'm considering a whole house generator (we use propane, so an easy hook-up).
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A lot of interest and a lot of hesitation expressed here. But maybe you want to look beyond the purest ledger details and consider jumping in with both feet. Maybe you will invest in solar just because it's something you want. After all, what is the payback time on your preamp or speakers? It's never in most cases so perhaps a slightly different perspective would make you more careful about investing.
I know my payback time and I think I may have made a wise purchase but I don't know. Prices may go down but once the current IRS tax credit lapses, you will lose an opportunity that is not likely to be equaled by tech advances in the field. It's something like buying a computer in that there really is no best time to take the plunge. The field advances quickly and you really can't defeat the inevitable obsolescence factor no matter how you twist the numbers or how long you wait.
I would urge anyone who is tempted to install PV panels to just up and do it. There's no time like the present. And, incidentally, you'll get some useful info from this thread but you must also investigate the circumstances in your area. The validity of this venture can be greatly influenced by local details.
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A lot of interest and a lot of hesitation expressed here. But maybe you want to look beyond the purest ledger details and consider jumping in with both feet. Maybe you will invest in solar just because it's something you want. After all, what is the payback time on your preamp or speakers? It's never in most cases so perhaps a slightly different perspective would make you more careful about investing.
I know my payback time and I think I may have made a wise purchase but I don't know. Prices may go down but once the current IRS tax credit lapses, you will lose an opportunity that is not likely to be equaled by tech advances in the field. It's something like buying a computer in that there really is no best time to take the plunge. The field advances quickly and you really can't defeat the inevitable obsolescence factor no matter how you twist the numbers or how long you wait.
I would urge anyone who is tempted to install PV panels to just up and do it. There's no time like the present. And, incidentally, you'll get some useful info from this thread but you must also investigate the circumstances in your area. The validity of this venture can be greatly influenced by local details.
Absolutely agree. Making the move 6 years ago, the cost was much higher, but no regrets. If you live where power is cheap, ie: less than $0.10Khw, it won't make sense on a purely economic basis. California, with it's tiered pricing, is one of the highest.
If you want to explore the possibility, I recommend contacting 3 or more local solar contractors for bids. You will learn how they would configure a system for your location, the cost, and whether or not it's even feasible at your site. Figure their price will be at least twice the cost of the components.
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I'm still concerned about the efficiency, reliability and serviceability (meaning the company will remain in business and have the parts over time). There have been a lot of swings in the solar market in the last decade or so.
Despite the current political and utility hostility to solar, I think that in about five years (hopefully less) the tide of opinion will overwhelmingly turn to distributed solar as the effects of fossil fuel use become hugely and incontrovertibly negative (as if they aren't now - but some people are slow). At which time I think it likely there will be better credits (state, federal and utility) than have existed in the recent past.
Likewise, I hope that concurrently there will be an increase in efficiency due to new technology and a decrease in cost due to an increase in supply and new design/production breakthroughs. All leading to a more stable, long term market.
My perspectives anyway, fwtw.
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I'm still concerned about the efficiency, reliability and serviceability (meaning the company will remain in business and have the parts over time). There have been a lot of swings in the solar market in the last decade or so.
Despite the current political and utility hostility to solar, I think that in about five years (hopefully less) the tide of opinion will overwhelmingly turn to distributed solar as the effects of fossil fuel use become hugely and incontrovertibly negative (as if they aren't now - but some people are slow). At which time I think it likely there will be better credits (state, federal and utility) than have existed in the recent past.
Likewise, I hope that concurrently there will be an increase in efficiency due to new technology and a decrease in cost due to an increase in supply and new design/production breakthroughs. All leading to a more stable, long term market.
My perspectives anyway, fwtw.
If you live where electricity is expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.
Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.
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If you live where electricity if expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.
Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.
My independent research supports every word in the above paragraph. MtnHam has done his homework.
The system I purchased is comprised of:
16 each -- Solar World 270 watt PV panels > Solar World is a German Company manufacturing these panels in Oregon
16 each -- Enphase Energy M250 Micro Inverters > These inverters come from an industry leader and have a very low failure rate
Lots of hardware I needn't enumerate > Includes racks and bolts - wire and conduit
Various Enphase connectors > proprietary connectors on weatherproof cables
Enphase Envoy production Monitor > wondrous little unit that captures all your data and transmits it to your router. It uses the Enlighten software to measure and record the production of each individual panel and the system as a whole. It provides graphs and charts to demonstrate what is happening, now and in the past. I watch this thing like a day trader watches the market. All data also is transmitted to Enphase. If an inverter fails, they know immediately which one and that it belongs here. A replacement is dispatched to you immediately.
This is not tube electronics either so the reliability is solid state solid. No moving parts anywhere. Nothing to maintain but clean glass.
I've considered outlining the details of my grid contract but it would only apply to Excel users in Colorado. Each state and each provider has their own program parameters, I'm told. I think the biggest concerns are how long you will stay in your house and how long your roof under the panels is apt to last. Other than that, just the obvious: will you have enough sun and do you give a shit.
Right now it is 6:57 P.M. and we have produced 24.8 kilowatts today. There is about a half hour ti sunset so I imagine this is pretty close to what we will finish with today. So far this month, we have produced 318 KWH which puts me on track to reach my quota for a month in March, most of which lies on the short side of the equinox. My installer told me that I might well see 35 kilowatts per day this summer. I'm watching with intense interest.
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My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.
Steve
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My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.
Steve
Come to Colorado. Leave McCain country behind. We treat people much better up here. Our climate is similar - just not quite so hot. And solar is encouraged.
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If you live where electricity if expensive, the tide turned long ago. Germany, California. and elsewhere already have a large solar base. The equipment is proven. Reliability is not an issue. Even if your installer is gone, there are will be service available, should you need it.
Because the cost has already come down significantly in the last 5 years, government incentives are less necessary and declining, and will most likely diminish, rather than increase in coming years.
I live in south FL, where solar should be ubiquitous but it is not even common. Which is a scandal. Though I have only looked cursorily, there don't seem to be many well established companies here. There has been no government encouragement for solar here in several years although that may change with a grass roots referendum effort currently underway.
With last year's plunge in fossil fuel prices, I still think there's a place for tax credits in order to rapidly and greatly expand the number of installed solar units nationwide to significantly reduce our greenhouse emissions quickly. Most places do not have California level utility rates and many people will require a shorter payback period to stimulate them to take the "trouble" to research and invest.
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Some power companies operate solar farms. Individuals can lease one or more panels and get the energy credit on their electric bill. Price is reasonable, they handle maintenance as a cost of business for the grid, and you don't have those initial up front costs. I too live in sunny Colorado.
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Maybe we are looking at only half of the equation on payback times. In my case I anticipate a payback of less than 7 years. The useful life of my solar panels is projected to be 25 years or more. That means that I can take my savings figure for this year and multiply it by 18 or more years to determine my profit on this investment. Of course that number should also be providing additional interest as the rate per KW increases each year. I anticipate a 4.5% increase in electric rates going forward because that is how much it has averaged over the last 10 years.
I paid about $900/yr. for electric power the year prior to my install in Nov. 2015. Following the 4.5% annual increase over 25 years triples my annual bill to $2705. If I average the $900 and $2700 figures, I find an average of $1800/yr. for that period. Multiplying that $1800 times my 18 remaining years after payback, I get a profit of $32,400. This does not take into account my rebate checks at an average of about $20/month for 10 or 12 years ( I forget the number). Let's just leave that aside for potential out of warranty repair or maintenance.
What that would mean is that I earned $32,400 free and clear after repaying my initial $12,000 investment. Do the numbers look correct? They do depend on the projected increase in electric rates which could potentially improve my numbers if they were to increase at a rate greater than what I was told to expect.
I'll be 68 in August of this year so I would have to live here until I'm 92 for all of this to happen, which is not in line with projections. So maybe I will sell before the 25 years elapses. That leads us to the topic of resale. There may well be more money made there.
If the price goes down further and the efficiency goes up in the future as anticipated, you might find you wish to upgrade what you have. Or you may sell your current home in the future and decide to install a newer, shinier, better solar array on the new domicile. Nothing lost in any of that.
Some climates are better for solar and some governments are more progressive in the face of solar development. That's just a fact. But the chances that you will seek out a more solar friendly environment in old age are pretty high since geezers usually look to flee winter.
Just some more things to consider.
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My area in Arizona just got screwed by the power company. They are adding a distribution fee to anyone who goes solar. If I recall correctly, the fee is at least $50 a month. This is criminal . We get about 300+ sunny days a year. Law suits are filed, so I have to wait.
Steve
Nearly half of my bill is for "delivery" versus "supply" charges. Sounds like we're being asked to go fully off the grid. New/lower cost technologies are making it more attractive all the time.
As always, the best first step in reducing consumption or be energy independent is to conserve. Ideas/reminders include:
Phase One - Swap out to LED light bulbs, caulk, weatherstripping, setting back thermostats, shutting heat/cooling to unused parts of the house, change furnace filters regularly, opening and closing window blinds/curtains to correspond to the weather, and turning off/unplugging unused appliances, pick up a cheap food thermometer (calibrate by putting in ice water and turning the hex nut under the display) to set your refrigerator to 40F and freezer to 0F (most home units are set colder than necessary).
Phase Two - Finding which appliances (like cable TV boxes) use power even when not in use and unplugging or putting on timers, install a programmable thermostat, on windy days run a cigarette lighter/match/tissue along windows/doors/exterior water spigots/electrical boxes on exterior surfaces to check for leaks and caulk some more, caulk around water lines that penetrate exterior walls, sealing/insulating hot water lines and ductwork, and of course adding insulation where possible.
Phase Three - Then get an energy audit (many utilities offer them for cheap/free), to get the maximum benefit from the audit (the easy/massive losses would mask the hidden ones).
Consider downsizing if your family has gotten smaller or downsizing/eliminating appliances (for us that'd be the 50 gallon water heater or the freezer). If you're in an all electric house, look into split system heat pumps that gives zone control and more modern/efficient space conditioning. Solar water heating provides a better payback than PV.
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Maine completes value of solar study.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/maine-completes-value-solar-study
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Jlm, Ive done most of the things on your list. I've downsized, I run mostly led lighting, replaced my windows and doors. We live in an all electric area. The cost reduction is significant.
Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.
steve
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Atlplasma - Thank you for that find. What an illuminating article.
Something else to consider about our current model of electric production is the fact that 70% of the juice produced at the source is expended getting the juice to its point of use. That tells me that we could reduce our pollution by 70% if we produce that same electricity on site where it will be used.
For those who haven't considered any of this, the grid is a substitute for batteries. Solar will not produce anything if your panels are covered with snow or the clouds are blocking out the sun or at night. Under those conditions, you need battery power or a grid tie to keep your service current (get it?). In Colorado I pay about 14 cents per KW and sell it back at about 4,5 cents per. Those ar defined as wholesale and retail rates and the utility is permitted to limit the size of your system to 120% of your average monthly consumption over the previous 12 months. Only one of the players in that scenario gets rich. Colorado is an extraction state, however, so we are very much at the mercy of the energy conglomerates.
However, the same plebiscite process that got us legalized marijuana could, at some point, overthrow the influence of corporations over our choice to not pollute. Doesn't it bother anyone else that we are allowing corporate greed to compromise our living conditions.
I don't know about you, but I quit smoking because I realized what it was doing to my lungs. Now I'm faced with being forced to "smoke" simply by breathing in the only air available. And the only reason I can see why this is true is the protection of stock prices by our lawmakers. Together, each of us making his own paltry contribution, we can take our air quality back. Today is the day we should start the process.
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In Colorado I pay about 14 cents per KW and sell it back at about 4,5 cents per. Those ar defined as wholesale and retail rates and the utility is permitted to limit the size of your system to 120% of your average monthly consumption over the previous 12 months.
I assume you're talking about getting 4.5 cents/kWh for selling a net surplus back to the utility. In CO I thought that everywhere was true Net Metering - your generated power directly offsets your consumption at retail rate until you run a surplus, and then you get the wholesale rate on any surplus.
Our system is finally up and running. We went through a bit of stalling and 'lost paperwork' and it took longer to get from the panel installation to power-on than it should have. We've been doing pretty well during the stretch of good weather - more than covering our usage.
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Jlm, Ive done most of the things on your list. I've downsized, I run mostly led lighting, replaced my windows and doors. We live in an all electric area. The cost reduction is significant.
Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.
steve
Steve - The audio system should certainly be considered in these calculations but it runs on electricity only in every case I can imagine. That means you can power it for free once you have your own production at hand. Nonetheless, the amount of electricity you need determines how much production capability you need to buy. Considering how much we spend on components, it does't seem like adding one extra panel and one extra inverter to your system at a cost of maybe $550 is outlandish. Most of us seem to be comfortable dropping that kind of money on tubes or phono cartridges that have a much shorter life expectancy.
All that being said, I'd still recommend D class amplification. I have a Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 integrated amp with onboard phono card that will rival anything else out there. It is compact, runs cool, eliminates some cables and uses very little of the precious juice. It is pretty expensive though at nearly $10K. I also have a pair of Ncore 400 home brew mono amps that get very close for much less money. Many other companies are creating alternatives all the time so the choices and budget range are generous nowadays. Or you can just buy one extra panel.
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I assume you're talking about getting 4.5 cents/kWh for selling a net surplus back to the utility. In CO I thought that everywhere was true Net Metering - your generated power directly offsets your consumption at retail rate until you run a surplus, and then you get the wholesale rate on any surplus.
Our system is finally up and running. We went through a bit of stalling and 'lost paperwork' and it took longer to get from the panel installation to power-on than it should have. We've been doing pretty well during the stretch of good weather - more than covering our usage.
dwk - You are correct. I guess I didn't explain myself very well.
I see that you are in Denver. I am way out west in Fruita. When I lived on the front range I got my power from Xcel Energy - just as I do now. Xcel came out after final inspection and replaced my consumption meter, at the same time adding a production meter. The difference between those two meter readings is my net consumption. That, as I understand it, is net usage figure. If I have used more than I produced, I pay 14 cents per KW. If I produced more than I consumed, they have to buy it from me but they pay only 4.5 cents for my KWs. I'm OK with that discrepancy because they have to operate and maintain the source of my night time electricity. The cost of restoring service after an outage is on them if it occurs off my property.
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Now does becoming more efficient apply to our audio systems? I suppose we could make adjustments there too.
Steve has a very good point.
I live in Southern CA and have been getting estimates on solar. The prices are still very high. You can buy all the parts for less than 10k and the retailers here want 25k installed. On my house it's quite an easy installation as I have already prepared the breaker panel and my south-west facing roof is a newer 40yr comp with a nice 3:12 pitch. I am having a hard time getting the math to work on 25K even with our crazy CA rates and the federal rebate.
Switching to Class D for the warmer summer months seems like a good Idea for me. We tend to be busy in the summer months and have windows open etc. I can hook up the big high bias mono blocks in the winter for warmth and critical listening. I think my AC will enjoy less cycling if it is not having to overcome my amps heat output too. I may start with the NAD 7050 this summer and see how I like it. I may even take my class A running preamp out of the system to save some in room heat and energy use.
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No, much to expensive in NY. About 40K. Price needs to come down first. For me using taxpayer money to for a credit makes our elec more expensive. Cannot support that. But that's me.
charles
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We installed a 4.5KW system over 15 years ago. Last I checked neighbors were paying in the low $300s a month for power (years ago). I just can't relate. Our monthly electric cost is about $5 for the tie in and once a year there's a true up that ends up being about $150. Maintenance consists of climbing up onto the roof and washing the collectors off once a year. Ours was a early system but it still paid itself off in about 12 years.
I tell everyone I bought a cheap car that has no maintenance costs, no insurance costs, increased my home's value, will last 25+ years, and writes me out a check every month to cover my power bill. ;)
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No, much to expensive in NY. About 40K. Price needs to come down first. For me using taxpayer money to for a credit makes our elec more expensive. Cannot support that. But that's me.
charles
Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up, i.e., privatize profits, socialize costs.
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Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up.
The people who have it better than everyone else tend to favor the status quo. They look with jaundiced eye toward anything that might diminish their disproportionate advantages. Some are simply misinformed. This thread is for them. Still others are just party line, knee jerk followers of certain dogma because that was their indoctrination, and no amount or kind of fact or logic will displace their prejudices. I have no idea which you are addressing in Charles.
On a more cheerful note, the sun is shining bright here in Fruita, Colorado and my panels are cranking. Electricity is my product and the solar installation is my means of production. Because of monopoly, I cannot have any customers besides myself. That severely limits the growth prospects of my business but does not put me out of business. And I know that even with only one customer, I will begin to turn a profit in a few years.
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Here in Colorado we have a law that dictates we can only go to 99% solar. So that's what we're doing. We just had the surveyor out today and will be 99% solar by the end of the month. Can't wait.
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No solar for me! But only because I live in a place where we use a heater or A/C maybe 10 days total over a year. Lucky! My max electricity bill for a 3000 sq.ft. house has been around $90 (that was a hot month!).
A couple of years ago, I was considering a job offer in Phoenix. Then it would have been a definite yes.
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No solar for me! But only because I live in a place where we use a heater or A/C maybe 10 days total over a year. Lucky! My max electricity bill for a 3000 sq.ft. house has been around $90 (that was a hot month!).
A couple of years ago, I was considering a job offer in Phoenix. Then it would have been a definite yes.
So if I may ask, where do you live?
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Do you favor the tax breaks that the oil industry reaps? Some of the tax subsidies are intangible drilling costs, tangible drilling costs (100% deduction), depletion allowance (15% off the gross), lease costs (100%) and others. Also the oil extraction industry tend to leave big messes everywhere which are often left for others to clean up, i.e., privatize profits, socialize costs.
Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.
charles
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Nothing is free, as soon as enough people get on solar and the solar push Washington vig is paid, Everyone will be right back to national level of pay, no free ride..
Everyone pays ....
Regards..
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Nothing is free, as soon as enough people get on solar and the solar push Washington vig is paid, Everyone will be right back to national level of pay, no free ride..
Everyone pays ....
Regards..
Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.
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Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.
Yes they are. Good move Macrojack. The idea of a intergrated is growing on me as well. liking the Peachtree components lately. Enjoy.
charles
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Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.
charles
Charles - did not look at the original comment but a flat tax FYI (and I did taxes for 35 years) FYI is the most regressive kind of tax (and that's my only point). For example, if you go out and buy a $20,000 car and whether you make $50k or $150k you pay the same sales tax. That is an extreme example of a flat tax. It is likely if there was a single flat tax on income it would be higher than 15% (to fund everything without drastic cuts) and would re-distribute wealth to the people at the top end. The (very) old days of high tax rates were not good either (the UK had an extreme issue with that with wealthy people leaving). Tax favors are just the norm. In some states with lots of manufacturing facilities there are sales tax exemptions for manufacturing equipment, in same with lots of farming there are reduced rates or exemptions for farm equipment. In Arkansas, a blind veteran can buy a new car (not a used one) every two years without paying sales tax. While consumers get a break from solar credits, the purpose was of course to spur sales for the companies that make equipment. If the credit goes away, there won't be as many people doing it and there will be less sales of course.
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Two wrongs do not make it right. Socialize ?? I do not favor tax breaks for anyone except those who earn less than 25k. No breaks no loop holes nada. just a fair flat. tax about 15%.
Redistribution of my wealth is not my idea of freedom. Sorry if you disagree but accusing me of supporting big oil because I dot like what you do is not right either.
charles
Sorry if I made an assumption about you that's not accurate. IMO the flat tax wouldn't be fair or effective.
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Not to get off the topic of solar but there are people who are not wealthy - e.g. perhaps they make $35k and with exemptions/deductions depending on where they live they may be barely getting by. Even at 15% they may go from paying nothing to more than $5k and it may cost them to lose assets. People make $350,000 would get a tax cut under such a scheme. There are no easy answers as we have a complex Federal Tax Code in addition to states which have there own sources of revenue. There are even home rule cities in some states with their own administered taxes. It's a mess - maybe we can just get back to solar.
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Not to get off the topic of solar but there are people who are not wealthy - e.g. perhaps they make $35k and with exemptions/deductions depending on where they live they may be barely getting by. Even at 15% they may go from paying nothing to more than $5k and it may cost them to lose assets. People make $350,000 would get a tax cut under such a scheme. There are no easy answers as we have a complex Federal Tax Code in addition to states which have there own sources of revenue. There are even home rule cities in some states with their own administered taxes. It's a mess - maybe we can just get back to solar.
yeah ....... maybe.
I sent a joke to a number of people earlier today. One of them was the guy who installed my PV system. I asked if he was busy and found out that he has a couple of out of town jobs coming up. Now here's the story:
There is a project pending in Stoner, Colorado. I had never heard of that place but there are a gazillion little towns and areas around the state too small to be known outside of a close radius. Turns out I never heard of this one because it just came into existence. Here is Craig's answer when I asked where it was:
Between Rico and Cortez, or thereabouts. It's not much of a town, 6 acres, but a guy named Frank bought it and wants to definitely play up the whole pot aspect for marketing, holding music festivals, etc., AND there is apparently a reality TV show of some sort in the works. Tommy Chong has apparently signed on to be the Chief of Police of Stoner, CO... (I'm not making this up)
I wish the guy well. Despite whatever crazy nonsense you may have heard about the subject, the cartels have not moved in. As a matter of fact, I can't say I've noticed any difference at all since pot was legalized. I hear there are a bazillion pot stores in Denver but the rednecks in my part of the state refuse to allow retail sales so everybody drives to towns that do sell it or buys on the black market. I think there would be zero problems if it were priced lower and widely available.
How's that for sticking to the topic?
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Of course the tax credits were what prompted me to get pricing on it when the house was going up. I basically worked that whole year and then about 15% of the following year before retiring for the second (and hopefully last) time. It just did not make economic sense without it. The Bloom Energy units I talked about previously which I indicated their goal was to have a $3k unit and two of those would power the average US house. However, it was my understanding that if they would do it now it would be $75k/unit or $150k for the average house and obviously except for commercial or mega mansion purposes not something that makes economic sense. It's just the way it is. It is no different for me when I do an audio upgrade or buy something else. Economics plays into it.
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The 30% tax credit offsets the cost to build/replace power plants, that ultimately the public pays for. Utilities don't like dealing with thousands of small generators that tie into the grid or losing our total dependency on them.
Of course solar/wind sourced power generates zero pollution compared to fossil generated, regardless of the percentage of transmission losses. Solar/wind also eliminates the environmental impacts from extracting, refining, and transporting the fossil fuel as well as transmission impacts. Our house has lots of open space to the south/west, so both solar and wind are candidates. But when I looked into wind power, it would have been a 30 year payback and only cover 1/3rd of our annual electrical demand (about 6,500 kWh for the two of us).
Unfortunately solar/wind isn't the total answer (without affordable power storage solutions). Most population centers aren't near high wind areas or where large/unobstructed/sunny spaces are available. And those transmission losses affect any centralized power sources, including solar/wind.
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Where do you see a free ride? I bought equipment to save myself money long term and spent over $12,000 doing it. Some of the comments here are unbelievable.
I didn't insinuate you got yours free, of course you had to pay for it , but Did you or the solar company not get tax credits to offset the cost , why did you buy ? Wasn't this to save $$$ on your energy cost in the future ?
Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent, when enough households are doing such there will be fees and taxes to compensate , monthly cost will be similar to those operating from the grid....
Windfarming is net loss , looked into it a decade ago it only makes sense when tax dollars offset cost and you sell and cash out up front . Oil is still the Cheapest way to produce electricity And will remain so for decades. Remote setups is where wind/solar make sense , do it because you want clean power or to feel good about Coming off the grid , not to save dollars....
Countries with excessive energy cost are the exceptions ....
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Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent,....
Very few! Being "off the grid" only makes sense if you already are already off the grid and can't cheaply get on. Otherwise, you need to invest in storage too! Storage has a limited life, needs to be amortized, and then there is battery maintenance! It makes sense to let the grid be your battery bank.
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My solar requires I'm on the grid (needs juice to run). I have a bi-directional meter the electric company installed so it registers what I generate. I just paid my monthly bill the other day and it was $39.46. If I turned off the pool pump, which runs about 7 hours it would likely be about break even. I did it for multiple purposes - firstly to save money over time (and have controlled costs in retirement) and secondly to be green. House has gas too - stove, outdoor kitchen grill and the pool/spa heater (I don't heat the pool but will use the spa a couple of times a month and heat it as needed- if I need a heated pool when it is too cool out, the community does have a pool and it doesn't have tons of users compared to past community pools where I've lived). The water heater is solar with electric back-up. Last year the next four months were the cheapest as they included excess generated and the bills ranged from just over 8 to just more than 12 dollars. I also put in 300 amp electric service (50 of that is for the main audio system on 3 circuits - one 20 amp) and I have a generator panel and for now I have a portable gasoline generator which probably can do most things except the air conditioning so I'll have the fridge, lights and fans.
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I didn't insinuate you got yours free, of course you had to pay for it , but Did you or the solar company not get tax credits to offset the cost , why did you buy ? Wasn't this to save $$$ on your energy cost in the future ?
Some get into solar to get off the grid and be totally independent, when enough households are doing such there will be fees and taxes to compensate , montly cost will be similar to those operating from the grid....
Windfarming is net loss , looked into it a decade ago it only makes sense when tax collars offset cost and you sell and cash out up front . Oil is still the Cheapest way to produce electricity And will remain so for decades.
Remote setups is where wind/solar make sense , do it because you want clean power or to feel good about Coming off the grid , not to save dollars....
Countries with excessive energy cost are the exceptions ....
You like those big oil tax subsidies, eh :duh:? Oil isn't the cheapest way to produce electricity because we aren't charged the real costs at the pump. We need to raise gas taxes now.The indirect costs are picked up by other areas in the economy like health care, pollution, environmental degradation and forwarding costs to future generations
The US should follow the German model. :)
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-08-14/germany-reaches-new-levels-of-greendom-gets-31-percent-of-its-electricity-from-renewables
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Best to ignore the ignorant. Those who want to learn can ask questions of those of us who have knowledge and/or experience.
Those who wish to spread misinformation and tempt us into political discussion serve no useful purpose in this discussion and should receive no response whatsoever.
Not everyone has circumstances which make solar electric self-sufficiency a possibility. Those who do, may find our conversation here informative or inspiring.
My personal opinion is that we Americans are energy gluttons. Our consumption per capita is many times that of any other country in the world. We are not the world's largest polluter, however, because China has a more primitive infrastructure, no regulation and a billion more people. That does not excuse our wastefulness. We owe it to ourselves and everything else living on earth to maintain the planets viability as a support system for life as we know it. America came into existence as a vast uncharted expanse of virgin landscape with seemingly endless natural resources. By engaging slave labor and exploiting new immigrants, we gave ourselves an economic edge over all other countries. Now we still operate with the mindset of endless natural resources and room to toss our garbage. But those conditions no longer exist - not that they ever really did. We can no longer afford to ignore the consequences of our lifestyle choices. We must, if we are not willing to make this planet uninhabitable, begin making personal decisions about how we choose to live and what we are willing to throw overboard in the interest of saving the ship.
I'm willing to jettison golf courses since they are a terrible waste of space, water, and time. They also add a tremendous amount of detrimental chemicals to our ecosystem for no other reason than to entertain the rich and those who wish to feel that way. Since I don't play golf, that idea leaps to the forefront of my list of possible expendables. Many of you probably feel that life without golf would not be worth living. I, on the other hand, can't see any justification for despoiling our beautiful natural landscapes with thousands of drilling rigs. But surely many of you will conclude from that statement that I don't want heat and light in my home. That, of course, is not true but I feel certain that the whole exploration and extraction process could be modified to reduce, if not eliminate the destruction presently incurred. Further, I feel that we are being deceived on many counts about our energy needs. America has for several years been producing more oil here than we actually use. Our petroleum exports in fact, exceed our importation. That means simply that, if we stopped exporting the stuff, we would not need to import any. Kaboom!!!
So, that's why I drive a Prius only 4000 miles a year and put solar panels on my roof and line dry the laundry (weather permitting) and spent $200 last month on LED bulbs and don't have refrigerated air conditioning and so on. It's not because I'm vying for sainthood but because I want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. The reason I'm sharing this info is to bring others into a mindset of minimal carbon footprint. Maybe we need to change our habits a bit. Maybe we can give up some comforts that are hard to justify. Maybe common sense could become the latest craze in America. Maybe green can be fashionable. Maybe you will discover something through your creativity that brings us all around to better living and healthier behavior. Maybe we can slow this disaster down enough to make recovery possible. A lot of very knowledgeable people think we have passed the tipping point where nothing can be done to reverse this tragedy fast enough to save us. We may already have made our planet uninhabitable to the point where we are just waiting for the bullet to arrive. I hope not with all my heart. Can you help? Will you help? Please don't just roll over and die. Fight back - it's your last chance.
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Hi macrojack,
thanks for your very well written write-up.
:thumb:
I sure don't want to be consider/looked at as an eco hero
but here on planet Vietnam is what I do
to do my part in the carbon footprint reduction:
(I know not much, but still.)
I drive a 110cc fuel injection motorcycle.
We have a solar water heater for us and the in-laws, total six persons.
Yes, we have air conditioning, but only use the one in the bedroom
at night when the temperature is too hot to sleep and we set it at 28C,
the other AC is for my office and use it when outside temperature is 35C+,
my office is on the fourth floor, so a lot of fresh air.
Of course with 30-35C almost all year round,
clothing is air dried and with in 2 hours is ready to wear.
My wife iron her clothing, but I only iron my office shirt and pants,
all my other clothing get their wrinkle iron out by wearing them. :lol:
Yes, not much, but better than nothing.
Guy 13
After reading all the posts posted before and after mine,
I think I am completely off topic with my post about making a smaller carbon footprint with my motorcycle and solar water heater.
Anyway.
The solar water heater cost us 850 USD (Parts and labor)
and the electricity cost 0.11 USD/Kw
I don't know how to calculate how long it will take
for the payback, but sure look like it will take several years.
Anyway, the solar water heater was part of the price of the house.
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Very few! Being "off the grid" only makes sense if you already are already off the grid and can't cheaply get on. Otherwise, you need to invest in storage too! Storage has a limited life, needs to be amortized, and then there is battery maintenance! It makes sense to let the grid be your battery bank.
Correct , i was referencing other countries where getting off the grid is common and legal it is not legal here in the states to do so ....
Regards
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Correct , i was referencing other countries where getting off the grid is common and legal it is not legal here in the states to do so ....
Regards
Where in god's name do you get your information? There are mansions in the Colorado mountains that are 9000 square feet and operate completely off the grid. More common, of course, are home made structures which operate without external power sources. It is not illegal in the U.S. Where are you?
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The problem for me at this point, is still cost. I think solar is a great idea. I have never looked into panels for my own home, but people that live in my area that I know have paid 25-30K for installation of solar panels.
Combine that with the fact that I would need to replace my roof at the same time (its 15 years old or so), and I am looking at 40-50K to add solar panels to my home.
I don't think I would ever see a return on investment that would be worth it economically. My average electic bill is 250 dollars a month. Assuming I completely eliminated my electric bill, and it cost me 40K to install the panels and roof, it would take me 13.5 years to recoup my investment.
Assuming 25 years maintenance free service, I would have made 35K. Just enough to replace the roof and panels again.
I like the way Phil had the panels integrate with the roof, that is pretty smart. I am wondering as the technology advances, if that would become something that is more prevelant.
Assuming there comes a time when I could replace my roof with solar panels for 20K, well then, that's a no brainer.
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Yes best to avoid the ignorant , the irony is astonishing .. :rotflmao:
You want to check the carbonfoot ( oil is used in manufacturering everything ) print on that prius and batterywaste In manufacturing, instead you prefer to throw around your silly dogma , you should get out of your little town once in awhile, ever did a little windfarming , sold or installed solar , you sound knowledgable, i guess because you bought 12K worth of solar and drive a prius you now know whats best for the rest of us yep, best to jettison those golf courses and other american waste you don't use.....
Save us MacroJack ......
Why should anyone have any input when we can listen to your silly monologic ... :roll:
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Where in god's name do you get your information?
You should get out of your little town more often MacroJack.
http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/court-rules-off-the-grid-living-is-illegal/
There are mansions in the Colorado mountains that are 9000 square feet and operate completely off the grid. More common, of course, are home made structures which operate without external power sources. It is not illegal in the U.S. Where are you?
It varies from state to state and best to bet the more who get off the grid will see a backlash from their local power companies . There is a need to know basis that cannot be over looked.
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The problem for me at this point, is still cost. I think solar is a great idea. I have never looked into panels for my own home, but people that live in my area that I know have paid 25-30K for installation of solar panels.
Combine that with the fact that I would need to replace my roof at the same time (its 15 years old or so), and I am looking at 40-50K to add solar panels to my home.
I don't think I would ever see a return on investment that would be worth it economically. My average electic bill is 250 dollars a month. Assuming I completely eliminated my electric bill, and it cost me 40K to install the panels and roof, it would take me 13.5 years to recoup my investment.
Assuming 25 years maintenance free service, I would have made 35K. Just enough to replace the roof and panels again.
I like the way Phil had the panels integrate with the roof, that is pretty smart. I am wondering as the technology advances, if that would become something that is more prevelant.
Assuming there comes a time when I could replace my roof with solar panels for 20K, well then, that's a no brainer.
Some of your figures may be outdated. Then again, I don't know where you live.
The roof replacement is coming up eventually so that expense is inevitable. You would just be moving it forward. Do you have enough land to put your panels on a rack in the yard? That would skirt the re-roofing concern.
Prices have come down dramatically in the last few years. Perhaps getting a contractor out to the house is your best bet. Even if you decide against the investment, you would then be better aware of the feasibility. And don't forget the 30% tax credit. If you complete the work before 12/31/2016, you can recover almost a third of your investment. With a $3000 per year electric bill, you stand to make up the investment quickly. Also keep the future rate increases in mind when you consider investment recovery. A good solar installer can provide pretty good estimates of recovery time. Be sure to get multiple bids. If you are in or near western Colorado, I can refer you to Craig Carson. My first bid was from Atlanta Solar for $15,500. Then I had High Noon Solar give me a bid which was not in writing because I stopped him immediately when he ballpark it at $28,000. Craig gave me a discount for helping and for fetching all the permits. That saved me about $300. I wound up paying him $11,775 and played out about $330 for my permits and Xcel's engineering charge.
Out here I started by contacting my utility company for an average figure on monthly usage. That number is the basis for everything that follows. I hope you are pleasantly surprised. Nothing ventured - nothing gained.
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Another inefficiency that central power sources have is needing to produce more power than is needed. Large power plants don't rev up like a car engine, they can take days to ramp up or down. So expected peak power (plus a safety cushion) is generated around the clock. Keep in mind that while the grid is interconnected, the grid is old (a form of infrastructure decay, like the power plants themselves, that doesn't get talked about) and the greater distances for remote sources to support local demands result in even greater transmission losses.
Local solar sources tied to the grid would be an excellent offset to the typical 3 - 7pm peaks (that correspond to air conditioning demands) and thus reduce the need to replace power plants (that would have to be much cleaner than the grandfathered current plants). Note that some power utilities do have peaking stations, fueled by natural gas (an abundant and clean fuel) to spin multiple relatively small turbines. These peaking stations work well with solar, can be sited closer to demand (due to less air, water, and thermal waste), and would also reduce transmission losses.
BTW Jack, seems to me that diesel (for now, fuel cells in the future) produce smaller carbon footprints than battery/battery hybrids when the impact of mining, transportation, manufacturing, fuel production/refining/transportation/transmission, and disposal are all considered (especially small cars in rural areas). Best of all: stay at home, shop locally, and travel virtually.
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You like those big oil tax subsidies, eh :duh:? Oil isn't the cheapest way to produce electricity because we aren't charged the real costs at the pump. We need to raise gas taxes now.The indirect costs are picked up by other areas in the economy like health care, pollution, environmental degradation and forwarding costs to future generations
The US should follow the German model. :)
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-08-14/germany-reaches-new-levels-of-greendom-gets-31-percent-of-its-electricity-from-renewables
Not following you , what does pump gas cost has to do with Oil prices at Power production and with the population and GDP per capita of Germany things can be done differently, ever looked at the taxes ... ?
Raising gas prices will have a direct increase on the cost of living in relation to everything, best to stop driving and ride bicycles, like they do in Holland. Putting 30Million over weight Americans on Bicycles and out of their cars would make more sense than what you are suggesting .
Improved Health , zero pollution , win , win ... :)
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Another inefficiency that central power sources have is needing to produce more power than is needed. Large power plants don't rev up like a car engine, they can take days to ramp up or down. So expected peak power (plus a safety cushion) is generated around the clock. Keep in mind that while the grid is interconnected, the grid is old (a form of infrastructure decay, like the power plants themselves, that doesn't get talked about) and the greater distances for remote sources to support local demands result in even greater transmission losses.
Local solar sources tied to the grid would be an excellent offset to the typical 3 - 7pm peaks (that correspond to air conditioning demands) and thus reduce the need to replace power plants (that would have to be much cleaner than the grandfathered current plants). Note that some power utilities do have peaking stations, fueled by natural gas (an abundant and clean fuel) to spin multiple relatively small turbines. These peaking stations work well with solar, can be sited closer to demand (due to less air, water, and thermal waste), and would also reduce transmission losses.
BTW Jack, seems to me that diesel (for now, fuel cells in the future) produce smaller carbon footprints than battery/battery hybrids when the impact of mining, transportation, manufacturing, fuel production/refining/transportation/transmission, and disposal are all considered (especially small cars in rural areas). Best of all: stay at home, shop locally, and travel virtually.
Good Suggestions JLM,
I do favor gas hybrids over diesel hybrids, but both are superior to their batt counterpart, It would be easy during the home construction phase to have these energy saving devices built in , if Washington really had any intent of saving us energy, this is where their efforts would be focused.
A pity , really ..
Regards...
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Moving upstream a bit I urge you to recognize that all of our energy comes from the sun. Whether it is stored in logs or peat, oil or gas deposits, or some other place we haven't found yet. By the same token, all of our food comes from plants which convert it from solar rays. The earth is our battery. What happens once we have extracted and consumed all of our "inexhaustible" supplies is the background question that needs to move forward.
Taking energy directly from the sun rather than using our stored energy is only common sense. And that is what we are really talking about here.
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Waste not , want not Energy cannot be created nor destroyed ....
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/
Harnessing the conversion of energy more effectively and efficiently is where our future exist, I would suggest a bit of reading on the “Fischer-Tropsch” process or Thomas Gold's "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels" , also "renewable crude" , a fair bit of warning, this is not for the sky is falling types..
Regards..
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When I go short distances I take the hot rod which charges from the wall socket (saves a couple of gallons of gas)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117052)
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Phil - Electric vehicle? Good idea.
When all the golf courses are gone we can turn those sites into solar farms and use the thousands of golf carts for local transportation.
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When all the golf courses are gone we can turn those sites into solar farms and use the thousands of golf carts for local transportation.
Right On! :lol:
In California, they will have to close them anyway due to lack of water.
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Phil - Electric vehicle? Good idea.
When all the golf courses are gone we can turn those sites into solar farms and use the thousands of golf carts for local transportation.
Yes - electric - charging it now as I'll be going down the road later for about 4-5 miles back and forth and coming back late and it has good light - just got the fog lights on.
I did play real golf just once about 20+ years back. Seriously, I hit more houses than greens. Pitch and putt or miniature is safer for the houses and businesses that are around when I play (and I haven't done either of those in years either). I don't want to get up early just to get a tee time and with high end audio I don't have to practice to be good - I only need to buy good gear - much easier hobby (Axiom Audio in-ceiling speakers are going in the main system sometime over the next couple of weeks so whenever I get to Atmos they are there).
I try to get to the gym a few days a week and in the nicer weather take a short 30 minutes bike ride a couple of times a week. It's a battle when you're older. I'm 63 and it's not as easy as it was even a half dozen years back. I talked to this guy and his wife I see in Dunkin Donuts from time to time last night and I thought they were in their mid 70s - was shocked when they told me they were only 5 years older than me. Not that they were obese but they need to do some exercise. Yes, there are too many obese people in the US.
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Right On! :lol:
In California, they will have to close them anyway due to lack of water.
I don't have much land (0.28 acres) and my development requires you get a well and sprinkler system for the lawn and they take care of yard and sprinkler maintenance (for a fee of course) and check to see that it is not used extensively (they have it on 2 days/week per guidelines). The house/driveway/pool (which makes its own salt) and landscaping take up most of the land so it is not much water used. It backs to a wooded preserve (where there are lots of critters like bald eagles) and a lake.
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Right On! :lol:
In California, they will have to close them anyway due to lack of water.
Sorry you feel that way. Most have their own wells. most if not all use organic fertilizers. They also bring major tax revenue to local communities. Golf is for everyone not just the wealthy. The First Tee program has helped more minority people with scholarships and a better way of life.
Maybe we should eliminate the use of rare earth materials and Mylar for speakers. Which is silly as well. To date the PGA has distributed almost one billion to charities where they have tournaments.
charles
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Enuff reality Rollo , why interrupt the party .......
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I have never been tempted by golf. Prefer a better class of people than those who are attracted to the course.
I think my lot is a little more than half the size of yours, Phil. My house is probably less than half the size of yours. No pool. So I have a relatively modest electric load to deal with. Gas fired baseboard hot water heat. Gas fired on-demand hot water. Gas cooking. Swamp cooler for AC. No class A amps. No tubes. All we power is light bulbs, common appliances and electronic gizmos like plasma TV (2) and D class amps. We don't even have an irrigation pump.
I think of downsizing but we are in a 1300+ sq.ft. place now and can't get much smaller without undue compromise. There are a couple of financial reasons for staying here as well. So I guess caulking and plugging holes will be my most effective measure at this point. At some point I think I will replace the plasma we use most with some high rez low consumption unit. Even that won't make much diff since we rarely have it on more than 2 hours a day. We do have an upright freezer in the garage I might be able to live without. It's 14 years old and probably an electric glutton. There's my answer.
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Yep, you're a class act ........ :rotflmao:
I have never been tempted by golf. Prefer a better class of people than those who are attracted to the course.
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I have never been tempted by golf. Prefer a better class of people than those who are attracted to the course.
I think my lot is a little more than half the size of yours, Phil. My house is probably less than half the size of yours. No pool. So I have a relatively modest electric load to deal with. Gas fired baseboard hot water heat. Gas fired on-demand hot water. Gas cooking. Swamp cooler for AC. No class A amps. No tubes. All we power is light bulbs, common appliances and electronic gizmos like plasma TV (2) and D class amps. We don't even have an irrigation pump.
I think of downsizing but we are in a 1300+ sq.ft. place now and can't get much smaller without undue compromise. There are a couple of financial reasons for staying here as well. So I guess caulking and plugging holes will be my most effective measure at this point. At some point I think I will replace the plasma we use most with some high rez low consumption unit. Even that won't make much diff since we rarely have it on more than 2 hours a day. We do have an upright freezer in the garage I might be able to live without. It's 14 years old and probably an electric glutton. There's my answer.
Hey my Son is a PGA pro and I a certified instructor. A better class of people is an insult. WTF !Tell that to Arnold Palmer. Just thinking about a better class of people tells me all I want to know about you. Your prejudice is a bit old. At your age one would think you know better than that type of bigotry. I'm done with you buddy. Typical progressive if they do not agree put them down. Is there a moderator present ?
charles
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PV Solar
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117055)
Pool Solar
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117056)
And, there is a two panel array on the roof for domestic hot water.
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Right On! :lol:
In California, they will have to close them anyway due to lack of water.
Help is on the way .........
http://www.haarpstatusnetwork.com/2014/12/06/haarp-array-experiment-in-progress-across-california/
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I agree with Mark Twain that "golf is a good walk ruined". :lol: That said, I love golf courses and would not want to see them disappear as long as they're sustainably managed. :thumb:
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Help is on the way .........
http://www.haarpstatusnetwork.com/2014/12/06/haarp-array-experiment-in-progress-across-california/
From the above mentioned website: "We will be bringing an end to the drought across the state, bringing in numerous storm systems across the area this month. California should have the most rainfall out of any state in the United States for the month of December 2014."
I guess they missed the target.
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PV Solar
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117055)
Pool Solar
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117056)
And, there is a two panel array on the roof for domestic hot water.
WOW!! What is the total panel count? I suppose the photography exaggerates the situation a little but that is one mother of an array for home use. I notice your solar clothes dryer on the front lawn and I guess those towers explain your "handle". Did you say you were in California?
How does the pool heater work? It doesn't appear to be conventional solar collectors. Is the cat real? It should be cooking in that spot if the panels are seeing any sun, right?
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Typical progressive if they do not agree put them down. Is there a moderator present ?
charles
What do you mean by "typical progressives"? :scratch:
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From the above mentioned website: "We will be bringing an end to the drought across the state, bringing in numerous storm systems across the area this month. California should have the most rainfall out of any state in the United States for the month of December 2014."
I guess they missed the target.
Those pesky details ..... :lol:
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/biggest-storm-in-nearly-10-yea/38714708
Dec:2014
The strongest storm so far this season and in the last four to 10 years for California continues to deliver drenching rain to hard-hit drought areas, along with the risk of damaging winds, flooding and mudslides.
:rotflmao:
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This is sort of what solar pool heating looks like around my way - http://suacci.com/solar-pool-water-heating/
I have panels all over for the house and if they did mine it would have to be on the roof above the second floor bonus room. I spoke to the solar people when they came over and showed me how to work the hot water heater. Probably would cost $6.5k. I can live without it and heat the spa portion of the pool with the gas heater I have a couple of times a month.
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Is it just me, or does a.wayne seem like a really unhappy guy? Most threads I see him in seem to take a negative tone once he starts posting.
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Another vote for golf.
The sport attracts a much better breed than any other major U.S. sport (unless you count tennis) and can be a life long past time. Just look at the arrest rates of pro golfers versus professional baseball, football, or basketball players. Completely understand if you don't care for the game.
Golf courses are often located in hills or flood planes (not suitable for development) or make for nice vistas for residential development. And which would you rather live near, a golf course or a sports stadium?
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Is it just me, or does a.wayne seem like a really unhappy guy? Most threads I see him in seem to take a negative tone once he starts posting.
Nah, it's just you , good try in making it personal thou ........ :roll:
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Nah, it's just you , good try in making it personal thou ........ :roll:
That wasn't making it personal.
YOU'RE A DICK
There, now it's personal.
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WOW!! What is the total panel count? I suppose the photography exaggerates the situation a little but that is one mother of an array for home use. I notice your solar clothes dryer on the front lawn and I guess those towers explain your "handle". Did you say you were in California?
How does the pool heater work? It doesn't appear to be conventional solar collectors. Is the cat real? It should be cooking in that spot if the panels are seeing any sun, right?
40 panels=6.5Kw. The photo was shot with a wide angle lens, so it does exaggerate the foreground, and the cat is real. The panels only get moderately hot, a little more so during summer afternoons. There are actually 3 ham radio towers. And, yes, California where our upper tier electric rates can approach $0.50/Kwh. Average is about $0.22/Kwh. The pool array is typical for pools.
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My system is 8.6KW. It makes it easy when electricity costs are controlled. In my old house which was about 16.5 years old when I sold it, I had put two new furnaces/AC units in (had to) about 5 years before I left and new windows (got rid of the builders grade crap) and that made a nice difference in the utility bills.
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That wasn't making it personal.
YOU'RE A DICK
There, now it's personal.
I prefer what your wife calls me, her favorite is "ohhh my god" Mr internet tuff guy .......... :lol:
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Tyson - Please don't antagonize him. He is apparently a troll who would like nothing better than to have this thread binned. I've been ignoring him deliberately so as to avoid bringing immoderate moderation to bear.
Speaking of moderation - where are you? a.wayne has been attacking and insulting several of us in violation of policy.
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Tyson - Please don't antagonize him. He is apparently a troll who would like nothing better than to have this thread binned. I've been ignoring him deliberately so as to avoid bringing immoderate moderation to bear.
Speaking of moderation - where are you? a.wayne has been attacking and insulting several of us in violation of policy.
You are right, of course. I can't think of a single thread, hell a single post, where a.wayne actually contributed something positive, or used a non-sarcastic, non-condescending tone. So I figured he was/is a profoundly unhappy and toxic person. Or maybe just a jerk. Or both. I let it slide for a long time without saying anything, but seriously he's crapping in a solar power thread? A SOLAR POWER THREAD? Good lord it's the straw that broke the camel's back (for me).
I wish there was an "ignore" option on AC for individual posters. My life (and I'm sure others') would be much better off if he just disappeared entirely.
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I prefer what your wife calls me, her favorite is "ohhh my god" Mr internet tuff guy .......... :lol:
At 6'1 and 230 lbs, I really don't think you are her type....
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Soooooo ----- once again --- from the top
I'd like to hear from anyone who is interested in solar electric for their home. Many seem to feel it is just too expensive or the payback time is too long. Nowadays, with the 30% tax credit still in force for a limited time, and with lower hardware prices and higher output panels, the cost has dropped pretty dramatically. Many are finding that the payback is less than 7 years, leaving between 15 and 18 years of pure profit to be enjoyed. In locations where there is an incentive program from the state or the utility or both, the payback can be even shorter.
So get involved in the discussion. Ask your questions. Join us in exploring the topic ever further.
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At 6'1 and 230 lbs, I really don't think you are her type....
Tyson - Don't touch the tar baby.
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Macrojack,
We are a very power hungry family apparently. It's so bad that paying for solar is instantly saving us money. We are amazed by just how much we will save. What Solar city is doing is 30 year loan at 4.5% with deferment of payments for the first 18 months plus we get a sizable credit from Uncle Sam which covers about 1/3rd of the cost. Of course interst starts accruing right away so we will be making principle payments during that time period. An idea I had was after the 18 month deferment period is up I would get a home equity loan which are around 3.5% or so, use it to pay for the balance on the panels then get the tax write off because of the heloc. Once we pay the panels off our monthly energy bill will likely be less than $20! The prospect of that is pretty exciting.
Also since we have a huge roof with exposure for most of the day we can go well beyond what our current energy needs are. In the future I am contemplating adding an electric tankless water heater which will reduce our gas consumption as well. It feels great to be energy smart and drastically reducing our carbon footprint. I'm really proud of that fact.
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Pez,
Check with your state regulations. It's not uncommon that the utility only has to buy back how much you use over the year, after all the concept of buy back is for the consumer to save money - not to go into the energy business.
Consider too that a large PV array could require more than a 200 amp service/panel. Better to look into solar hot water generation before "oversizing" a PV array.
A good point made above: consider all those possible roof penetrations (potential leaks) and ruining a perfectly good/newer roof. All penetrations should be flashed (overlapping metal sheet metal), not just caulked. (That's why I'm looking to do solar panels as a patio shade, not over a roof.)
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Thanks for the advice! I'm not 100% up on our state regs but I do know that colorado will only let you go as high as 99% solar production. We do 'sell back' to the grid but we can never exceed what we get out per annum.
As far as our roof, we have a concrete tile roof and solar city told me they have a very specific way of attaching to the concrete and only have one point in which they conduit into the roof with a specialized tile of some sort. Solar City is incredibly thorough! They have explained everything at every step of the way, never pressured us into any decision and have been very transparent. They come with my high recommendations for those of you non-DIYers.
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My brother would be happy to see all this positive talk about Solar City.
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Pez - I'm also in Colorado.
If you are going to be grid tied you have to enter into a contract with your energy provider. Xcel Energy will only permit you to install a system capable of producing 120% of your past year's energy use. i'm told that there are people who will run a couple of space heaters in the garage for a year before applying for service quotes. They have everything worked out to keep you from benefiting too much from the arrangement. At the end of the year you may have accrued energy credits which you can either cash in or leave in your energy bank for a cloudy day.
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Interesting... I was unaware of the energy contract through xcel. I'll have to look into that a bit more.
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Interesting... I was unaware of the energy contract through xcel. I'll have to look into that a bit more.
Here's the Xcel PV helpline # 1-800-824-1688
I've had dealings with two different people there both of whom were very knowledgeable and helpful. Ask for Jordan or Amanda.
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I appreciate the info! I'll give me a call tomorrow.
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Very cloudy here yesterday. Never saw the sun all day but the panels still generated 8.45 KWH of power for us. That's about one third of what we have been seeing lately. The corned beef brisket experiment came out great though. Every cloud has a silver lining.
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For those of you who are afraid of pursuing solar because of the entry fee, take heart and re-evaluate with current data. I just read that the price of solar panels has gone down by 80% since 2008.
And here's a figure I found surprising: New Jersey is 4th in the nation in solar power capacity per capita. N.J. has a hell of a lot of people and not much open space so that per capita figure is amazing to me. BTW, AZ was number 1, Hawaii was 2nd and Nevada 3rd. After that N.J. was 4th, followed by N.M., California, Delaware, Colorado, Vt. and Mass. The list goes on the graph bars start to get pretty skinny after that.
Bottom line is: Solar Energy is out of the bottle and will soon become an unstoppable monster of a trend. Government support for it is still a question but Texas billionaires will probably be trying to corner the market soon and govt. involvement will then appear in some form. Get in early.
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Here's all kinds of solar capacity stats by State for 2014 - http://www.seia.org/research-resources/2014-top-10-solar-states
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And here are some states who are candidates for the Hall of Shame:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-no-solar-20140810-story.html#page=1
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FWIW.
We recently moved into a planned community and all of the houses have Solar Panels on a 20 year lease from Solar City. You have little/no choice in the matter (they decide on how many panels to put onto the roof during the construction period. This is based on the model of the home with factors like # of bedrooms and the average use for other similar models in the past). You can contact Solar City and talk to them about having more panels installed after you take possession of the house.
We are still in the process of moving in, so we are not here full time, nor are all of our electric appliances running yet. We will get a spa at some point, which will change things. During a typical sunny day, our array produces between 30 and 35 kwh. It is a VERY moderate climate here. AC is not standard and would typically be used 10-15 days a year (as a guess). We do use natural gas for heating, hot water, and Range.
Our first electricity bill was under $5. I liked that part.
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Hey Phil - After my last post, I remembered you are in Florida, which is famous for discouraging solar installs. Did you have any difficulty with red tape or protectionist laws? It's funny how the private sector/free market guys are always busy trying to buy themselves a legislated monopoly.
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FWIW.
We recently moved into a planned community and all of the houses have Solar Panels on a 20 year lease from Solar City. You have little/no choice in the matter (they decide on how many panels to put onto the roof during the construction period. This is based on the model of the home with factors like # of bedrooms and the average use for other similar models in the past). You can contact Solar City and talk to them about having more panels installed after you take possession of the house.
We are still in the process of moving in, so we are not here full time, nor are all of our electric appliances running yet. We will get a spa at some point, which will change things. During a typical sunny day, our array produces between 30 and 35 kwh. It is a VERY moderate climate here. AC is not standard and would typically be used 10-15 days a year (as a guess). We do use natural gas for heating, hot water, and Range.
Our first electricity bill was under $5. I liked that part.
That situation sounds like it falls somewhere between reasonable and enlightened. May turn out to be heavenly since it suggests a like minded neighborhood.
Having to go to Solar City for modification after purchase doesn't seem too burdensome. In my area of Colorado we go through an application process that includes engineering plans and evaluation thereof if we want to join the grid. Once you are approved and installed and operational, any modification requires a repeat of the entire process, which really isn't as bad as I made it sound.
Where is this place? I probably can't afford it but you never know.
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That situation sounds like it falls somewhere between reasonable and enlightened. May turn out to be heavenly since it suggests a like minded neighborhood.
Having to go to Solar City for modification after purchase doesn't seem too burdensome. In my area of Colorado we go through an application process that includes engineering plans and evaluation thereof if we want to join the grid. Once you are approved and installed and operational, any modification requires a repeat of the entire process, which really isn't as bad as I made it sound.
Where is this place? I probably can't afford it but you never know.
South end of San Luis Obispo County California, the community is Nipomo.
http://www.trilogylife.com/communities/california/monarchdunes/?gclid=CMbu5Z_QtMQCFQiNaQodpz4AIw
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Hey Phil - After my last post, I remembered you are in Florida, which is famous for discouraging solar installs. Did you have any difficulty with red tape or protectionist laws? It's funny how the private sector/free market guys are always busy trying to buy themselves a legislated monopoly.
No - not at all - no issues whatsoever. The builder was great all around and worked with a competent solar (http://321gosolar.com/homepage/) company (and the builder has done a bunch of homes -http://www.buildingalifestyle.com/2014/06/lifestyle-homes-builds-sebastians-first-solar-powered-zero-energy-home/ - http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/ba_bc_lifestyle_hot-humid.pdf ) . The builder is a closely held company that has been in business since 1984 (and the solar subcontractor over 20) and the construction managers have weekly meetings. If a subcontractor isn't doing the job, they get rid of them. Yes it was a few dollars more but it was done during the construction phase. I have all kinds of audio wiring and while I was back and forth lots, it was almost 900 miles from my other home. They did a great job of coordinating everything and called me if there were any issues. I posted their gallery of solar powered homes earlier. There's only a bit more than 70 lots in my little subdivision which is part of a bigger community. There's probably 4 or 5 builders (the developer is one of them - not my builder but probably built the most - still have about 20 lots to be built on which the developer kept for themselves so my builder is done with this community) and they all have (regardless of builder) solar assisted hot water heating and my builder has a few more solar houses in the development as well. One can see the solar panels on back of the house (in addition to the ones on the side I previously posted from Google Earth:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=117096)
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I like my quiet neighbors in back of the house too 8) - they come and go
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=80393)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100189)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100190)
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Where I am, they have a minimum bill of $16 (now $19, I believe). So, if you make more energy than you use, you still have to pay. Also, they do an accounting once a year and anything you've accumulated will be paid at the going rate (think half price). I don't have to worry about that, as we're not making enough electricity.
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If you go solar, couldn't you get a hybrid car and cut down on gasoline usage at the same time?
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If you go solar, couldn't you get a hybrid car and cut down on gasoline usage at the same time?
To be totally correct, you mean a plug-in hybrid so your sunlight can (partially) power the car, right? Good idea!
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If you need an around town or short to moderate commute car, a pure EV would most certainly make sense now.
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I'm hoping for something along these lines....
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/02/21/tesla-home-battery-way/
There may soon be a day where you charge up a Tesla Battery (or similar) with solar during sunlight hours and it holds enough of a charge to power the house overnight and non sunny days. The existing Battery technology tied to Solar isn't very efficient.
Would be nice if the whole thing produced enough electricity to that long with charging an EV/Hybrid for running around near your home. Still got a ways to go for distance driving.
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To be totally correct, you mean a plug-in hybrid so your sunlight can (partially) power the car, right? Good idea!
yes, that is exactly what I mean. Won't eliminate gas usage completely but should cut it down a lot. Plus Denver has over 300 days of sunshine per year.
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Tyson - We get the same 300 or more sunny days a year. Why waste that, huh?
I have a 2006 Prius which we drive about 4000 miles/year. That requires about 85 gallons of regular per year. At $3.00/gal. that's $255/yr. or around $21/ month. Going to an EV would require buying one and thereby increasing insurance and registration costs on the car. It would require entering into a payment program (Prius is paid) and it would take away the distant driving option. For us it wouldn't make sense. It would also require investing in more panels.
Down Albuquerque way I have a friend whose solar panels charge his Chevy Volt. His commute is under 10 miles each way so he rarely ever burns any gas.
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I have an Acura MDX for long trips to the mountains and extended family transportation, so that's not going anywhere. But my wife has an old Toyota that's gonna need to be replaced in the next year or 2. And she commutes about 7 miles to work. So for us it might make sense to get a plug in. Assuming we can go solar. Last summer we moved into a brick house built in 1954, so I have no idea if the roof is suitable for a panel install...
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I have an Acura MDX for long trips to the mountains and extended family transportation, so that's not going anywhere. But my wife has an old Toyota that's gonna need to be replaced in the next year or 2. And she commutes about 7 miles to work. So for us it might make sense to get a plug in. Assuming we can go solar. Last summer we moved into a brick house built in 1954, so I have no idea if the roof is suitable for a panel install...
Have somebody give you a quote and ask every conceivable question They're used to it. Most people are confused or misinformed. Those guys welcome the chance to impose real facts. And I hope this thread helps as a sounding board for newbies. Once you get the story from a contractor, come back to us for a credibility check. And call that Xcel number I gave to Pez. Here it is again. 800-824-1688
They will look at your usage over the previous 12 months and tell you how much service capacity you can install under their grid-tie rules. I paid about $12,000 for my 4.32 KW system. I imagine most people would require more size than that but it may give you a basis for comparison. In fairness, Atlanta Solar quoted $15,755 for 4.5 KW. Both bids included everything including fees and permits. Good luck.
If you still have my number feel free to call for discussion. Also, it might be possible for my guy to come to Denver for your job. I'll ask.
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Would be nice if the whole thing produced enough electricity to that long with charging an EV/Hybrid for running around near your home. Still got a ways to go for distance driving.
Having enough solar to power an EV is simply a matter of proper system sizing. The Tesla Model S already has a range of 300 miles with the upgraded battery.
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Having enough solar to power an EV is simply a matter of proper system sizing. The Tesla Model S already has a range of 300 miles with the upgraded battery.
Like I said, that's a start. :green:
If it could drive that distance (300 with upgraded battery) and refuel/recharge/swap batteries/whatever, then you were good to go another 300, it would work. When I'm trying to make time distance, I try for 700+ miles a day. This is usually to visit out-of-state friends/relatives for Holidays (limited time), or a vacation where my destination is a fair distance away (I want to spend my vacation at my destination, not traveling back and forth). Also means that I need a bit of capacity inside which means weight.
For right now, it's a minimum of a separate car for commuting/daily use vs. vacations. Some people can afford that, many cannot.
It's getting better though. I had such high hope for the Volt when the first specs were published. They were revised downwards substantially by the time it came to market. Maybe in the future. A car that does the first 100 on electricity, then unlimited at 35+ MPG with a 15 gallon fuel tank with decent capacity. I would look seriously at something like that.
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Like I said, that's a start. :green:
If it could drive that distance (300 with upgraded battery) and refuel/recharge/swap batteries/whatever, then you were good to go another 300, it would work. When I'm trying to make time distance, I try for 700+ miles a day. This is usually to visit out-of-state friends/relatives for Holidays (limited time), or a vacation where my destination is a fair distance away (I want to spend my vacation at my destination, not traveling back and forth). Also means that I need a bit of capacity inside which means weight.
For right now, it's a minimum of a separate car for commuting/daily use vs. vacations. Some people can afford that, many cannot.
It's getting better though. I had such high hope for the Volt when the first specs were published. They were revised downwards substantially by the time it came to market. Maybe in the future. A car that does the first 100 on electricity, then unlimited at 35+ MPG with a 15 gallon fuel tank with decent capacity. I would look seriously at something like that.
It will probably be a long time before long road trips with an EV will be practical. Most families already have 2 or more cars. Having at least one of them be an EV or plug-in hybred makes sense now.
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It will probably be a long time before long road trips with an EV will be practical. Most families already have 2 or more cars. Having at least one of them be an EV or plug-in hybred makes sense now.
I'm still not sure about that. If you get rid of the car before the batteries have to be replaced, and they keep the tax incentive ($7,500), then maybe. If the batteries have to be replaced, then you'll probably lose money versus buying a "normal" car. I personally like to buy a car then drive it into the ground. With an EV, I couldn't do that, as there's no way the batteries are going to last long enough.
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I'm still not sure about that. If you get rid of the car before the batteries have to be replaced, and they keep the tax incentive ($7,500), then maybe. If the batteries have to be replaced, then you'll probably lose money versus buying a "normal" car. I personally like to buy a car then drive it into the ground. With an EV, I couldn't do that, as there's no way the batteries are going to last long enough.
We are really talking about the general public, at least that portion inclined towards green solutions. It won't work for everyone, and probably not you until you change your mind-set.
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Not every decision is, or should be, purely economic in its determination.
Electric vehicles are not presently viable for most people. If you drive 1000 miles a week you won't be out of the car enough for it to recharge. If you need to transport tonnage, probably wrong for that too. If you only have one car, there may be a variety of reasons why it doesn't work for you.
I rarely leave my valley so I could conceivably use one as my only car. I would then rent something more distance capable for vacation travel, etc. But I won't be buying EV for the some of the reasons I stated further up the page. At the rate we are using the Prius, it will last us the rest of our driving years.
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I'm still not sure about that. If you get rid of the car before the batteries have to be replaced, and they keep the tax incentive ($7,500), then maybe. If the batteries have to be replaced, then you'll probably lose money versus buying a "normal" car. I personally like to buy a car then drive it into the ground. With an EV, I couldn't do that, as there's no way the batteries are going to last long enough.
Sources I've read recommend leasing an EV because of the uncertainties about battery life. Of course, I've also read the Tesla battery packs have a lot of life left in them when they are technically "used up." In fact, companies are recycling these battery packs and using them for large-scale UPSs.
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My apologies if this link has already been posted. France is now requiring that all new roofs be covered with panels or gardens. Very hip thinking IMO, viva la difference!
Here 'tis:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/20/france-decrees-new-rooftops-must-be-covered-in-plants-or-solar-panels
Cheers,
KP
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My apologies if this link has already been posted. France is now requiring that all new roofs be covered with panels or gardens. Very hip thinking IMO, viva la difference!
Here 'tis:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/20/france-decrees-new-rooftops-must-be-covered-in-plants-or-solar-panels
Cheers,
KP
What about steep roofs, north facing roofs, glass roofs/skylights, barrel faulted roofs, or inflatable structures?
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My apologies if this link has already been posted. France is now requiring that all new roofs be covered with panels or gardens. Very hip thinking IMO, viva la difference!
Here 'tis:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/20/france-decrees-new-rooftops-must-be-covered-in-plants-or-solar-panels
Cheers,
KP
:thumb: The US innovates the technology but it seems that the Europeans are leading way in its implementation.
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I just received my electric bill :o , the last two months have been outrageous 2912KWH FEB bill and 4116KWH MAR bill usage (2077KWH MAR 2014) double from one year ago. Not really sure how we doubled the usage as last year had similar weather. I'm am definitely looking in to solar. ZAK
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Thanks for starting this thread, as it finally got me off the dime and I called an installer for Sunpower. He came over this morning and took some measurements (physical and light). I should get a quote next week. His initial assessment is that I am borderline for a decent payback even with the tax rebate as I live on a hill with lots of trees.
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You are welcome! Apparently you are the reason I started it. I hope you can make solar work for you. And don't get too hung up in payback time. If I offered you the chance to get free electricity for a year, you would probably be very interested in learning how. Well, even if you get lousy payback time you are likely to get 10 years free at the back end of your system's life expectancy.
And, on the subject of saving money driving, no transportation mode is better or more affordable than no transportation mode. Try to shorten your commute to nothing. The closer you get to that goal the better. Some of us do it like I did by retiring but telecommuting works for many and public transport for others. Mass transit isn't free and might not even be cheap but it is very cost effective for anyone who has to pay for parking and tolls. You might even be able to change your home or work address with that in mind.
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Nice surprise yesterday. My energy provider, Xcel Energy, brings both natural gas and electricity to my house and issues a bill monthly. My bill is annualized so that I pay the same amount summer and winter, with the exception of November when they settle the difference between what I paid and what I actually used. My payment for this year was set at $124/month. My most recent bill reflected an adjustment brought about by recorded changes in my energy consumption. This bill was only $41. This represents a savings of $83/month or a 67% discount.
I found that vindicating and enjoyable.
So far, I am averaging approximately 25.5 KWH per day production. My basic bill for remaining connected to the grid is $8.11 and my rebate check this month was $15.39. My electricity is completely free and my panels actually are paying me a little cash.
You gotta get on board with this. Make sure you do it before 12/31/2016 so you can take advantage of the 30% tax credit before it expires.
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I decided to pull the trigger. In three weeks I'll be the proud owner of an 8kW PV generating system. Looking forward to seeing the meter run backwards.
Ok, so are there any deleterious effects on the power with all the inverter switching? I mean this is Audio Circle. :)
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During the last 6 years I have had a 6.5kw PV system running, producing on average $400/month of energy (at PG&E's rates). My very revealing system is on 24/7 (at least the SS parts.) I have never noticed any noise from the PV system. Granted, I have some serious AC purifying gear because I believe a lot of noise is generated within the house and within the digital gear, but aside from that, I never sensed that the solar was a problem.
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I'm on the grid. The juice my panels produce goes into the vast reservoir from which we all draw. Because it passes through my production meter, I get credit for that amount being mine. As far as I know, the stuff coming out of the wall is the same as it was before my panels were installed and activated.
If I was off the grid, I suppose my electric power would be much cleaner, particularly if I used it as DC.
There's a thought - With the birth of LIO there should be many Red Wine pieces up for sale at very attractive prices. With one panel and a sizable battery, you could run an all analogue - all DC system. Can't get any cleaner than that.
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During the last 6 years I have had a 6.5kw PV system running, producing on average $400/month of energy (at PG&E's rates). My very revealing system is on 24/7 (at least the SS parts.) I have never noticed any noise from the PV system. Granted, I have some serious AC purifying gear because I believe a lot of noise is generated within the house and within the digital gear, but aside from that, I never sensed that the solar was a problem.
That's good to know. Actually after I posted this I realized that I'm usually not home listening when the panels will be doing their thing. Sounds like we have a similar set up--my system is supposed to generate a little under 8 kW DC and 7 kW AC for a savings of about $500/month.
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That's good to know. Actually after I posted this I realized that I'm usually not home listening when the panels will be doing their thing. Sounds like we have a similar set up--my system is supposed to generate a little under 8 kW DC and 7 kW AC for a savings of about $500/month.
Please read my previous post. There is no direct relationship between the electricity you produce and that which you consume if you are grid tied.
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I'm on the grid as well and have an 8.6KW system (as was posted earlier in the thread). I have a pool pump running 8 hours a day and last month's bill (net of credits for what was produced) was $24+ and the one before that was $39+. In the main system, I have a Torus RM-20 (on its own 20 amp circuit) which isolates much of the crap from the system. I had it (the Torus) in my old place as well.
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Please read my previous post. There is no direct relationship between the electricity you produce and that which you consume if you are grid tied.
Guess my post wasn't clear. My question was whether the electrical noise generated by the inverter would cause audible issues. I then realized that I'm not home listening most of the time when the photons will be doing their magic and the inverters will be switching away. Anyway, I'm still looking forward to generating power.
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I have not noticed a drop of difference in the new place vs. the old. If anything I'd think the interface is one additional step to deliver more uniform voltage to the electrical box. I've not done extension testing but from the couple of times I did minor electrical work or looked at the face of a UPS on a spare computer, while it could be coincidence, it looks like voltage swings may be a little less than in my old place. There are white papers - solectria_harmonics_noise_pv_inverters_ white_paper.pdf and other info - http://www.solarpanelinfo.com/solar-panels/inverters/ "An inverter converts a direct current to an alternating current through a delicate electrical switching process. This process makes an inverter function as a synthesized alternator, which are typically used to produce AC current by creating a smooth alternation, similar to a pendulum gently swinging. This alternation takes the form of a sine wave, which is the ideal wave pattern for transmitting AC power."
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I took the plunge and bought a 21 panel PV system last week that will produce about 5.5 KW on a good sunny day. I had not really thought much about inverter noise. The system uses EnPhase M250 micro inverters. I have 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits into my music room and installed a 9' grounding rod some time ago. I do experience noise from time to time from my neighbors running microwaves and other noisy appliances. As I do most of my listening on Sat and Sun mornings and a few late nights (9-11 PM) I don't see my PV system really affecting anything other than providing a break on insane utility rates here in SO. CA.
It does sound like I may have to invest a bit more in power scrubbing though. My dated Monster 5000 power conditioner is probably not up to the task with all the new noisy stuff that is being added to the grid. Even in my own house I have been adding gear with switching power supplies to save heat and energy.
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"It does sound like I may have to invest a bit more in power scrubbing though. My dated Monster 5000 power conditioner is probably not up to the task with all the new noisy stuff that is being added to the grid. Even in my own house I have been adding gear with switching power supplies to save heat and energy."
This has been accomplished in my system very effectively with 3 dedicated lines to my listening room and more recently the addition of a Shunyata Triton, 3 Typhons, and numerous PC's. Their Alpha and Sigma Digital PC's are highly effective in reducing noise generated internally in digital gear. Overall, the addition of these pieces created a not subtle, jaw dropping improvement in SQ. IMO, clean power is a fundamental requirement if you want the best possible performance from your existing gear. More effective than upgrading components.
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Had mine running for 5 years next month. 32 panel Sunpower, 6.0kW. my annual production is a bit over 10,000 kwatts annual. Net out of pocket was $25k after tax credits and rebates. My annual bill over the past five years has been around $200-250 for the year. Was about $215 month average prior to install.
I use energy more freely with the solar in place. I don't sweat much with the AC running.
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I attended the Great Lakes Renewable Energy annual conference a couple of weeks ago and learned a bunch. Signed up for apparently the last available round of EARP (experimental advanced renewable program) that pays $0.24/kWh for the power generated from residential solar/biofuel sources and it appears that a random drawing will be made as slightly more applied than is available. Looking to add 18 panels that will also double as a deck shade. Expected cost of lend-to framing and system about $11,000 after federal credit and estimated payback about 8 years here in Michigan.
Also looking into an automatic whole house backup propane fueled generator as electrical dependency, our age, and grid unreliability are all going up. Learned at the conference that generator lifespan are based on run time, not lifetime loading, so adding some whole house batteries will allow the generator to rest while the batteries carry load, which of course can be reduced under those conditions especially at night. Too bad most of our outages occur during our cloudy winters and that grid-tied systems can't be used for backup anyway.
BTW the only problem we've had running under a 5 kW generator was with the microwave (apparently too sensitive to power aberrations). TV, satellite boxes, router, computers, etc. all ran flawlessly. However our 10 year old dryer bit the bullet soon after a 14 hour outage recently ($600 logic and relay boards needed to be replaced). Outage was due to a fire at a power pole 4 miles away during a lightening storm and ran the generator once (to keep frig/freezer going).
Also have a dedicated room for office/audio. The audio system has 3 dedicated 12 gauge/20 amp circuits each running to a cryo'd hospital grade duplex receptacle that are tied to a separate ground.
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I attended the Great Lakes Renewable Energy annual conference a couple of weeks ago and learned a bunch. Signed up for apparently the last available round of EARP (experimental advanced renewable program) that pays $0.24/kWh for the power generated from residential solar/biofuel sources and it appears that a random drawing will be made as slightly more applied than is available. Looking to add 18 panels that will also double as a deck shade. Expected cost of lend-to framing and system about $11,000 after federal credit and estimated payback about 8 years here in Michigan.
Also looking into an automatic whole house backup propane fueled generator as electrical dependency, our age, and grid unreliability are all going up. Learned at the conference that generator lifespan are based on run time, not lifetime loading, so adding some whole house batteries will allow the generator to rest while the batteries carry load, which of course can be reduced under those conditions especially at night. Too bad most of our outages occur during our cloudy winters and that grid-tied systems can't be used for backup anyway.
BTW the only problem we've had running under a 5 kW generator was with the microwave (apparently too sensitive to power aberrations). TV, satellite boxes, router, computers, etc. all ran flawlessly. However our 10 year old dryer bit the bullet soon after a 14 hour outage recently ($600 logic and relay boards needed to be replaced). Outage was due to a fire at a power pole 4 miles away during a lightening storm and ran the generator once (to keep frig/freezer going).
Also have a dedicated room for office/audio. The audio system has 3 dedicated 12 gauge/20 amp circuits each running to a cryo'd hospital grade duplex receptacle that are tied to a separate ground.
Have you considered Tesla's Powerwall for your battery backup?
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Phase 1 is adding PV solar with provisions for the generator/battery to be added later on. Trying to catch the EARP program and federal tax credit before they expire and generate savings to fund the generator/battery. Battery technology is improving quickly with prices/performance improving, so not wanting to invest now beyond the concept. I have briefly looked at the Powerwall, but that's all I've done (let someone else be on the bleeding edge).
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While I envy you guys that are getting off grid, :green:
I would recommend a through investigation into battery packs containing lithium batteries. The disposal costs can be several thousand dollars for old batteries and hazardous material trucking. They are also very explosive under the right circumstances (fire & water). I can't even imagine the signs you will have to install on the house for the fire department and Knox key access etc. that will be necessary. In some County's in CA I believe you would also have to file as a hazardous material storage site and pay the yearly fees for regulation and inspection.
all that said, I still want one. :lol:
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While I envy you guys that are getting off grid, :green:
I would recommend a through investigation into battery packs containing lithium batteries. The disposal costs can be several thousand dollars for old batteries and hazardous material trucking. They are also very explosive under the right circumstances (fire & water). I can't even imagine the signs you will have to install on the house for the fire department and Knox key access etc. that will be necessary. In some County's in CA I believe you would also have to file as a hazardous material storage site and pay the yearly fees for regulation and inspection.
+1! Don't ask me how I know…. :roll:
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Can someone go in to more detail around all the battery stuff? I'm pretty sure we're gonna do solar this year, but aside from the panels I really don't have a plan or any knowledge about what else is involved.
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I'm not a fan of batteries, preferring grid-tie as the back-up.
Deep cycle marine/forklift batteries need maintenance and testing on occasion. Fluid, specific gravity, voltage, etc. PITA.
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Tyson - Electricity is momentary. Use it or lose it. Unless, that is, you have a way to store it until the time when it is not being produced like night, for instance, or when your panels are under 6 inches of snow. Batteries provide you with that kind of storage but they also add a lot to the price of your system. The up side to their use is independence from the electric company and its outages. If you have battery backup, you can set your house up for 12 volts or 24, I think, and avoid inverters. If you are grid-tied you lose your power the same as everyone else during outages. This is for safety purposes. They can't have your system back feeding the grid while repairmen are trying to fix it. Too dangerous.
So - I went the grid tie route, using Xcel Energy as my battery. You should try to get your system operational ASAP. There is a rebate program in force in Colorado but it is being phased out. If you get into what they call the Solar Rewards Program, they will kick back 2 cents for every KW you produce during any given month. I receive a check monthly. It doesn't come to a lot of money but it hastens the payback time. The program pays you for 10 years or more, as I recall.
Can you ask specific questions? I haven't any idea what you know. A quick phone call to the crack solar rewards team, can answer your questions and set you on the path to initiation. Here's the number: 800-824-1688 Call now!
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For most, batteries is not a viable option to going off the grid. Without reinventing your electrical use an off grid solar/battery system could cost 10 times what a net metering system would be that typically reduces utility charges by 80%. Keep in mind that the solar system would have to be over sized to allow battery charging and whole house batteries would have to account for extended snow, rain, and cloudy weather events, so would cost several times more than the solar system itself.
If it's always sunny where you live, batteries could practically get you through nighttime to enable going off the grid. But for 99% of us to go off the grid requires giving up electricity when sunlight runs out, a generator, batteries, and/or on-site hydrogen storage with fuel cells. None of these options are very practical (running generators for extended hours is noisy/wasteful, batteries are very expensive, and fuel cells are still very expensive/short lived). And sizing your solar system to cover peak loads requires a much bigger/more expensive system.
It's always best to plug the holes in the bucket first, so your demand and thus system can be minimized. LCD lights, variable speed central fans, adding insulation, sealing air leaks, improving windows, more efficient heating/air conditioning equipment, occupancy sensors, even "right sizing" into a new energy efficient house can all help reduce demands. A good energy audit (or building a new/smaller/more efficient house) is the logical place to start.
But adding batteries to a generator allows you to use excess power from the generator to charge the batteries. When fully charged the generator can shut down, allowing the batteries to provide power while the generator rests (again generator lifetimes are based on how many hours they run, not how much overall power they've generated). More batteries, longer continuous run times for both. Whole house batteries can charged by utility power and be ready to take over at first loss of utility power, so that during short outages the generator may never start and there would not be the gap between beginning of the outage and the generator starting. (Whole house generator manufacturers plan for a gap in case of short "blips" in utility power).
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It's always best to plug the holes in the bucket first, so your demand and thus system can be minimized. LCD lights, variable speed central fans, adding insulation, sealing air leaks, improving windows, more efficient heating/air conditioning equipment, occupancy sensors, even "right sizing" into a new energy efficient house can all help reduce demands. A good energy audit (or building a new/smaller/more efficient house) is the logical place to start.
That's right on the money, JLM!
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Reviving an old thread to provide an update ...
My PV system is finally built, wired, and as of last Monday on the grid. Under partially cloudy conditions it has generated 111 kWh the first week. We average 510 kWh use per month, but under the incentive program we enlisted under we only need to produce 293 kWh to break even. The utility will send one bill for both accounts. We'll be responsible for paying the net every month if we owe, but they will send us a check for the balance when it exceeds $50.
The contractor is coming back tomorrow to install the wireless monitoring system that will provide more information and the building inspector needs to come by to approve the structure (we installed the panels over the deck via treated lumber posts/rafters to provide shade for the deck and avoid removal/reinstallation when it's time to re-shingle the roof).
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J,
Thanks for the prompting. Mine went online mid-May, although the metering wasn't sorted out until 6/10 so the first month's production is understated in the graph below.
Since installing the panels I've only paid taxes and fees (and gas) to PG&E. Looking forward to getting the $11k credit next year, and the savings this year is nice. Now if the rate plans will not change significantly over the next 5 years I may have a chance to get paid back!
Definitely seeing production drop as the trees are casting more of a shadow as the sun lowers in the sky.
AC
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=129564)
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Congratulations to all the newly installed solar owners. You made a smart move. Soon the masses will wise up, and the stampede will begin. My system has been producing for over 6 years. Even though it was much more expensive than today's prices, it has been paying off since day 1.
My 20 year old 9kw diesel generator provides whole house power when the grid goes down, at a fuel cost of $1/hour. We live at the end of the grid, in the boonies, so we are usually the last to be restored after storms or outages, Nonetheless, the generator has only had about 100 hours of run time over those 6 years.
I will soon add a Tesla Power Wall which will eliminate much of that run time in the future; I will only have to activate the generator after several hours of an extended outage. And, the solar system will continue to operate if the sun is shining. Both the solar system and the generator will recharge the Power Wall.
Unless you live where power is extremely cheap (less than $0.10/kwh) or where solar is impractical, or you plan to move in the near future, you should not remain on the sidelines!
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Unfortunately if your PV system is on the grid, it can't function as a backup (don't want to jolt the linemen trying to make repairs).
For folks like us Generac offers a $2000 rebate on 6kW & 15kW models if you are on propane. For the smaller generators they also offer pre-wired 8 & 12 circuit panels to make installation much cheaper, but the cost of the generators themselves doesn't vary much by capacity (unless you jump up to big ones that run at 1,800 rpm or are water cooled). Many don't realize that permanently mounted/fueled generators aren't necessarily whole house generators. A careful evaluation of your electrical demands will determine how big a generator and how many circuits would be needed for "survival" needs versus whole house coverage.
As MtnHam eluded to adding a big battery to the generator allows the battery (having been fully charged off the utility/solar power) to take over at the loss of utility power and run until utility power returns or the generator takes over. Then as extra generator capacity allows the battery is recharged. Once fully charged, the generator shuts off and the battery takes over again, and the process repeats. This greatly reduces how much time the generator runs (especially at night during low demand), saving fuel/noise, and extends the lifetime of the generator (run time determines generator lifetime).