AudioCircle
Industry Circles => ModWright Instruments (MWI) => Topic started by: modwright on 24 Nov 2013, 06:09 pm
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OK guys, you know that we are working on a standalone DAC and phono. These products are well under way and details being finalized.
Apparently having TOO much time on my hands.....(RIGHT!) :roll: I am thinking about a headphone amp design.
Questions:
1) What headphones are most of you using?
2) Impedances?
3) Power requirements?
4) How do you use it? Work? Desk? Listening room?
5) Tube design is my preference, but hybrid is also a possibility: Preferences?
6) Price points? High Quality tube or tube/hybrid design for BEST sound!
Looking at initially a headphone amp, followed by a combination headphone amp WITH DAC.
Possibly HP amp will offer DAC upgrade option.
Any/all input is welcome!
Thanks,
Dan W.
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Love my HiFiMan HE-5LE headphones. And I think that a decision you will need to make will be whether to have an amp that has the grunt required to drive some of these harder-to-drive headphones like the HE-5LEs or the HE-6s. A number of folks are pairing these phones with speaker amps using adapters. And most headfi type reviews (6moons too) tend to mention how well a headphone amp handles a tough-to-drive headphone.
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My best sounding headphones are 600 Ohm's. Design an amp that has power, power, and more power. All headphone amps have a gain knob. Just use it.
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I really wish Dan would stop coming up with great ideas for things I'm going to "need" to have! :lol:
1) What headphones are most of you using?
Right now a pair of Westone UM2 IEM
(But I keep looking for a pair of Audeze LCD2 or LCD3s)
2) Impedances?
Westone - 27 ohms
Audeze 45 Ohms (purely resistive)
3) Power requirements?
Westone UM2 - Not much at 119db/mW - (So having a selectable gain for IEM and larger cans would be great)
Audeze LCD3 91db/mW (Recommended 1-4 watts)
4) How do you use it? Work? Desk? Listening room?
Right now I'm using a RSA-Hornet daily at my desk/work. I use a line out DOC from a classic ipod, or my iphone if I'm streaming podcasts.
(While this might not fit with what you had in mind, something more or less portable would be awesome.)
5) Tube design is my preference, but hybrid is also a possibility: Preferences?
Either/or - If we can get the "trademark" ModWight sound in something a little more portable - I'd tell you to just take my money now. :lol:
6) Price points? High Quality tube or tube/hybrid design for BEST sound!
If I had to replace my Hornet today it looks like I'd be spending between $500-$700. Granted I was waiting to hear about Schiit Audio's Vali (less portable) which is going to be a hybrid and is suppose to run under $150. Overall, I'm looking for something with high quality sound, and I usually run to a "warmer" sound. So while that might be tube in description, I have always enjoyed my 100se and ls100 combo which I guess could be considered a hybrid design. :D
Dan - Thanks again for thinking of us and if you need any other detail or have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line!
Thanks!
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I use Stax 507 headphones
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I use JH Audio JH16s, which are custom IEMs. Impedance is 18 Ohms, very easy to drive but pick up noise if there is any in the circuit. I also use LCD-2s, which are 45 Ohms and fairly power hungry.
I only like desktop/home amps. All-tube design is preferred. Price point -- up to $2500 would be of interest.
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I have looked at tube designs and they may work. To be fully flexible with all headphones, will require transformer coupling. This adds cost of course.
The other approach is a tube hybrid design, with the tube used as the voltage amplifier. This approach interests me greatly. We could use technology from our existing SS amps and tube designs.
I will be honest and say that it will NOT be < $1K for sure. We are not going to compete with the portable or the Asian mf'd. market.
I am thinking of a desktop unit, not necessarily full rack width. Ideally smaller for more flexible applications, such as office, desktop, etc.
I would prefer a design that can handle MOST if not all headphones out there. A hybrid design would certainly make this more likely.
Thank you for your feedback so far and please continue to contribute, all who read this.
Sincerely,
Dan W.
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The Audeze are available with balanced XLR connectors.
Dan, will it have balanced output? 4 pin? 3 pin (two off)?
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Dan, once you get into the >1000 price point (which is a good one!) you start to compete the with units made by Woo Audio and others.
The headphone categories include the low impedance planers (Audez'e, HiFiman, ATH) and higher impedance cans (Beyer, Sennheiser). The HiFiman HE-6 are the most difficult to drive, followed by the Audez'e.
The tube amps are very popular since people like to be able to tune the sound to their headphone and liking.
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The Audeze are available with balanced XLR connectors.
Dan, will it have balanced output? 4 pin? 3 pin (two off)?
What XLR connector should I use single 4 pins or dual 3 pins??
Seems in the dual 3 pins the third pin(ground) is unused??
I assume the sound quality are the same in both types.
Please advice.
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Would anyone like to see a remote volume control other than myself? Yup . . . 10 feet is a long way to walk :lol:
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Hey all,
Cool to see a manufacturer like Modwright looking to get into the head-fi game! I have headphones right now (and desktop speakers...no loudspeakers yet) and I feel like high-end audio manufacturers who are starting to get into headphone gear are creating a bridge for adopters of their headphone-related gear to eventually have the option/gain the interest in looking at their even higher-end gear outside of the headphone world (ie the speaker world)....and since headphones involve a large amount of young listeners, it brings with it the potential to draw in younger audio enthusiasts and get them "on your team" early on. Does this make sense?? If I liked what your gear made my music sound like with the headphone component you created, I'd feel more comfortable exploring your options for speaker related gear. You would have built-up my trust as a consumer in this scenario and thus increased your chances of having a long-term customer :)
Anyway, I thought I'd offer something to this thread:
-I have Audeze LCD 2 headphones. That's it. I'm a one headphone kind of guy myself :)
-I have a Red Wine Audio Signature 16 Speaker/headphone amp (I LOVE it). Now, one of my favorite things about this amp is that it's a hybrid design. I feel like (with my amp in particular anyway) I don't have to worry about getting super expensive/rare tubes to make it sound it's best. That kind of stuff would keep me up at night (I know, it's sad but kinda true). This is a BIG turn-off for me! The simpler the better (for me) and if you can create an amp that's not SO tube-type (*expensive*) reliant then I think that is a huge plus. Some will disagree obviously. But having the option to roll tubes and change the flavor is sweet....again, as long as that's not a requirement to make it sound it's best.......which is subjective anyway so, yeah I know it's a tricky thing.
-Head-fi folks seem very interested in a product with some amount of flexibility so gain adjustability would be cool (as someone has mentioned already). New headphone amps seem to get minus points when they are in their lower-gain stages and they still emit some amount of noise when in use with IEM's. An amp that is powerful enough to use with the most power-hungry of headphones like the HE6's/K1000's, BUT can also be DEAD quite with IEM's would be a rare feat.
-I think a remote control is a PLUS, but not a necessity.
-If it's gonna use tubes, the easier the tubes are to access for tube rolling, the better..
-Some folks want XLR inputs....don't matter much to me but if you can include XLR and RCA inputs it could be a bonus for some.
-Balanced balanced balanced. Folks want balanced headphone outputs. The 4 pin type is a bit more standard now. Include a 1/4 inch headphone out, WITH a balanced 4 pin one and that would be super I think!
-For me, I wanted my headphone amp to also be a speaker amp so I could power my desktop speakers...I don't have space for both types. IF you were to consider such an option, then including a switch to mute the speakers when using headphones is a must in my book!
-Being able to easily follow what position the volume knob is at is BIG for me because when I switch from speakers to headphones on my amp, the volume will either be too loud or too quiet and I'd like to glance at the volume knob and keep track of where it's at....hope that makes sense.
-Sure, a optional DAC would be awesome....lot's of folks want an amp/dac together these days.
-An amp that is modular in the sense that it's upgradeable (future proof) is ideal. Even the DAC section, if you go that route. Options are nice!
-2 inputs are minimum in my book. 3 is really great.
-Desktop appropriate size is great. Some big hulking piece of metal is reassuring to audiophiles in many ways. It give the impression of something being carved out of stone and long-lasting. But for headphone gear....getting the size down is better. But not too small! Then I automatically assume it won't be able to hold it's own sonically against similarly priced gear.
Hope some of this helps stir the pot :)
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Wow! Great feedback!
I AM interested in the headphone amp market as a gateway to reaching younger customers! It is a blossoming market, as is vinyl of course.
XLR inputs is not a problem. I will see if they should be 3-pin or 4-pin as we get closer in.
I also agree that it would be a good option if it can power speakers, such as desktop speakers and of course have multiple inputs.
Not sure about R/C, given that you ARE tethered to the amp via your headphones ;).
As far as tubes go, it WOULD be a standard, current-production type, that is readily available and has a lot of tube rolling options. I have been working with the 6922 family lately and I like that tube for lots of reasons.
Hybrid design makes a lot of sense in terms of power hungry designs. I will explore both of course, but this DOES look appealing.
Again, thank you SO MUCH for this input! This IS a product for our customers, so knowing what our CUSTOMERS want is KEY to the design!
Take care and please keep the info coming!
Dan Wright
President,
ModWright Instruments Inc.
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A Modwright HPA? Yes please! Making an amp that is well suited for both IEMs and Orthodynamics is very challenging. If you have to pick one at the expense of the other, I would suggest leaning towards Orthos - that means at least a good 3W of power, and loads of current for ~32Ohm designs. If the amp can deliver that, the 300-600 Ohm stuff shouldn't have any problems. Of course a gain switch will help.
Output impedance must be less than 1 Ohm, and the more V she can swing PP (while keeping noise at bay), the better. I would suggest at least one pair of RCA and XLR inputs, a 4-bin balanced and 1/4" SE headphone out, and preferably a pair of RCA and XLR outs so it can double as a preamp. Speaker outs are up to you, but I wouldn't compromise on the HPA to get more power for the speaker outs. More people are likely to use it as a preamp paired with actives on the desk than a speaker amp paired with passives.
Volume control should be first rate. Please no $20 Alps Blue Velvet pots or noisy DACT steppers. I know the RK50 wont be possible at the price you are after, but you could probably put the Acoustic Dimension 41-step SA in there without blowing your budget.
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Yeah for me powering desktop speakers was a MUST because this sector of the speaker world is growing SUPER fast as well and there are some really great speaker options right now that have been created with the desktop in mind primarily. I can't say that I've heard many of them, but it might be fun for you to hear them at some point (if you haven't already). And a lot of the folks who would be looking into those kinds of speakers are (I think) folks who have/want hi-end headphones. It's all becoming part of the same universe in a way that I don't think it's quite been before. All of the great options that computer audio has to offer, are right in that universe as well. Space-limited folks like me are just loving this realm of the audio world :)
I feel like I have a really super desktop system, and my sights are on high-end speakers at some point (sooner rather than later hopefully). I read a lot about speakers now (loudspeakers and bookshelf's) and bookmark the ones that seem interesting to me.
*I find that I'm barely feeling the need to read about amps and dacs as much because I'm happy with what I have and they are both upgradeable should I want to take advantage*.
Then, when the time is right, I will audition the speakers that still have managed to interest me and bring along my little amp to find the right match for it. Or I'll do auditions with companies that have good in-home trial periods. The speakers will have to be on the more efficient side, but....there's lot's of great options out there for these kinds of speakers now as well! In a way this helps narrow down my choices!
So I've really tried to get most of my "pieces" in line now so that my biggest concern in the future will mostly be just finding the right speaker....not finding the right DAC and Amp and cables etc etc. I want things to be easy so I can just focus on the music. The vinyl side of my rig will need a bit more work I think (though it's quite good now), but the digital side will for the most part be covered for a long while. That put's me at ease...
Oh and that's why the remote is a nice option for me, because when my amazing new speakers arrive in the future (whatever they end up being) and my amp is no longer within my reach....that remote will become even more useful. I appreciate it's function now though (I barely touch the volume knob anymore...only to fine-tune the volume level)....but I wouldn't cry if it didn't come with my amp right now. Maybe it's something you can make optional for an added fee? I don't know haha :)
Anyway, all the best with your headphone amp exploration!
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Hi guys and thanks.
The design would be meant for 'Ortho's', but should be able to accommodate IEM's also. Obviously a BIG difference in power/sensitivity there. Perhaps the mini stereo plug would ONLY be connected to the lower power output, while the standard jack would be connected to the higher power output. Of course a hi/low gain switch would not be a problem.
I will have to research the VC options. I agree that for a high-end product, it would need to be a HIGH QUALITY attenuator. TVC's are my fave, but they ARE expensive!
Alps RK50 :o - yeah right! Wow! Those are CRAZY expensive!
I will see what we can do with regard to power and connections for speakers. Flexibility IS key with this design obviously.
Thanks!
Dan
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Dan, does an amp that drives both speakers and headphones compromise the headphone impedance matching of the transformer since you need to limit it to 8 and 16 phms?
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Hello Dan: A lot of this has already been covered so consider it mere confirmation :thumb:
IEMs up to 110dB down to about 85dB planars, impedance from 30 ohms to 600 ohms. For ultra-low output impedance and the lowest possible noise (vital for those IEMs) a hybrid would seem ideal. As you know circuit gain and output power work together on raw drive. The HifiMan HE-6 are said to like up to 4 watts into their 50-ohm load. I think that's a bit on the high side as I've had a number of far lower-powered amps that did well on the HE-6. It also depends on whether someone comes in with a weak-ass portable source or a 4V-out super DAC. I'd say you do want 2 watts into 50 ohms to cover all eventualities and if you can produce more without any noise, even better. A really good attenuator obviously is key. If the piece is to double as a preamp, remote control is nice and then a numerical display is always lovely to have. On connectivity, a 6.3mm plug, a 4-pin XLR and 2 x 3-pin XLR plus a 3.5mm plug would cover all apps. In desktop speaker scenarios a lot of headfi/DAC/pre pieces forget that small desktop speakers are routinely mated to a sub below the desk because the mains are small and bass shy - hence the need for a second pre-out. On the desktop real estate is limited so any such piece that can double as a computer monitor stand (flat top that doesn't get too hot and doesn't mind being covered i.e. no heat exchange there) adds appeal. On the same subject, width is easier accommodated than depth. Plenty of computer monitors are 27" or bigger these days. But not everybody has 20 inches of depth they can accommodate before the piece hits their keyboard. So I'd recommend wider than deep and no taller than 6 inches feet included to serve that monitor-stand purpose.
If that sounds reasonable and appealing, why not have the tubes military-style but sticking out the front so you can see 'em and get to them easily? There are a number of designs to market that have very attractive variations on this subject to look fantastic.
Your idea of lower gain wired to the 3.5mm mini plugs sounds very reasonable. Another would be to have multiple gain selections, perhaps a three-tier voltage divider in front of the volume pot. That way it'd also affect the main out if someone wanted to use this with the built-in DAC option but run it in fixed-out mode. Now they could have the main volume control wide open but use the gain switch to set output voltage to 1V, 2V and 4V (or whatever happens to be a reasonable equivalent). Many modern DACs have far too much gain for amp/speaker systems to make it useful to preset their gain with a simple resistor in the signal path.
On the desktop, the more lights the more irritating I think. If you're thinking back lighting a nice option would be 'stealth' mode where you don't see any lights at all. If the tubes are visible, that's all the confirmation you need to know the thing is on...
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Thank you Srajan, a lot of additional ideas that I had not considered. I greatly appreciate it!
First I need to decide on the design. Hybrid makes the most sense overall.
Next the VC choice (attenuator).
I will then entertain what options are needed and physical space requirements are.
Agreed on connectivity and your idea for varying gains is right along the lines of what I was thinking of.
If a hybrid, there WILL likely be a transformer involved, but not necessarily in the way that many would expect.
I really appreciate this!
Dan
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I will have to research the VC options. I agree that for a high-end product, it would need to be a HIGH QUALITY attenuator. TVC's are my fave, but they ARE expensive!
Alps RK50 :o - yeah right! Wow! Those are CRAZY expensive!
Dan
Yep, plus headphones have a way of acting as microscopes in terms of exposing bad designs and bad components. The typical cheap conductive plastic pot need not apply. I used a Khozmo 48-stepper on a custom made KGSSHV Stax amp. Great sounding SA with very precise 1dB steps from 12-48, BUT they are massively unreliable, and I wouldn't recommend them for a commercial product.
The Acoustic Dimension has 1.5dB steps, which isn't quite as nice but it's still a world of difference over the 2dB steps on the usual 24-step DACTs and Goldpoints. Those are just too coarse for headphones. AD also sells a motorized version if you want to have remote VC.
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/attenuators/attenuators-main.htm (http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/attenuators/attenuators-main.htm)
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A few more suggestions: if the amp is not going to be fully balanced, make sure to offer a 1/4" headphone jack. XLR jacks are not necessary unless the amp is truly balanced. In any case, most people do not have balanced headphone cables lying around. Also, adding too many features -- like speaker outs, DAC, remote -- may drive up the cost for features that most won't use. I have owned headphone amps that can double as preamps and low power integrateds and never use them for that purpose. Avoid making an amp that seems to be a potential "jack of all trades, master of none". Finally, Woo is in need of some competition in the $1200-$2500 range. Above that price, though, and the potential market thins out a lot and you will start competing with Eddie Current, which seems to operate on low margins and is well regarded.
Oh, one last request, create an amp that has some tube warmth. Singlepower sold a lot of amps before it imploded. Users loved them for a combination of midrange warmth and great dynamics. The remaining amp makers seem to adhere too closely to the straight wire with gain manifesto of amp design.
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Most headphones came stock with the unbalanced banana but the best sound quality are with the balanced aftermarket cable.
So both are necessary IMO, I just do a web reseach and came to the result I prefer the single XLR 4 pin connector (over the dual 3 pin).
So I prefer a phones amp with 6,3mm stereo banana jack and XLR 4 pins for best sound.
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Here's a concrete example of a headphone/preamp/DAC that's really well done and in the $1.200 slot: http://www.aprilmusic.com/eng/main/sub02_03_07.html (http://www.aprilmusic.com/eng/main/sub02_03_07.html)
Of course it's made in South Korea so we all realize a pricing advantage but let's look at the design. It's the right size, as a preamp it has remote control and numerical display and as a headphone amp it has a very effective bypassable all-analog bass EQ and drives anything out there. As a DAC it's limited to 16/48 USB because a dedicated DAC in their mini line is forthcoming. It's not a tube piece so it doesn't have to worry about where and how to put the glow bugs. Volume control of course is analog and tracks real well into standard loads (haven't tried it with IEMs as I personally find the notion of portable hi-eff in-ear phones and stationary 'monster power' amps ridiculous. For IEMs people use portable amps... but others could feel differently. Then inter-channel tracking from the very get go of whatever pot you choose becomes truly vital. I would not even consider stepped pots in 1dB increments. Too coarse. Even my 14000 euro Nagra Jazz tube preamp uses a continuous-type pot and there's plenty of good ones out there to where clunky steppers (which often produce switching transients to boot, particularly nasty with IEMs) shouldn't even apply. But that's just me.
I would agree that a DAC/headphone box is rarely used as a 'serious' preamp i.e. in the big system. But I would say chances are good it ends up on a desktop mated to a basic stereo amp if it's got USB, S/PDIF (say for an iPod dock) and Toslink (for various other portable sources). Now remote and numerical display aren't necessary. I'd not worry about driving speakers at all but if you do, one all-in-one box to emulate would be Wyred4Sound's mINT. That's what I use on the desktop and in sequence of quality I'd say it's #1 = amp, #2 = headphone output and #3 = DAC. I'd rather see a dedicated tube hybrid headphone amp that can also be a super tube preamp on the desktop. Just to throw a few more things into your thinking pot :P
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Sorry to derail the thread a bit...but Srajan, I use JH16s with a Headphones Lounge silver IEM cable with two home amps -- an Eddie Current Super 7 and an ECP Audio L-2. The sound quality beats my LCD-2s rev 2s with ALO cable by a country mile. They are so good, I sold my HD800s. I only keep the LCD-2s around as a backup should something ever go wrong with the JH16s. Give the JH16s a try with a "monster power" amp (but preferably low noise and low gain) and you are in for a treat. As a longtime member of Head-Fi and Head-Case, I know of a few veteran hobbyists who sold everything but their JH16s and a good dynamic home amp.
Fullrangeman, I own a half dozen aftermarket cables. Unless the amp itself is balanced, a balanced headphone cable sounds no different than a single-ended cable. Trust me, I have a single-ended and a balanced headphone cable for my LCD-2s, both from Q Cables, and they sound identical when used with my Super 7, which is not balanced.
Now back to design features Dan might care about: I don't know of too many who would use a headphone amp as a computer monitor stand. I have a dedicated rack from Mapleshade Audio that holds my amps, DAC, and transport. No way I want a monitor propped on top of my $2500 L-2. I don't think many would feel comfortable resting a monitor on one of Dan's works of audio art either.
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On the monitor stand issue, see here:
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ami2/18.png)
I'm talking as a guy with a speaker & headphone system on the work desk. As you can see, to keep things reasonably tidy there's simply no room unless certain electronics double as monitor stand. And mine isn't a small desk but properly grown-up version :thumb: If the speakers weren't there, it'd be a different song. But if we're talking headphone amp with a second purpose as a desktop preamp... now it can easily become an issue where to put things. Hence my suggestion to style such a component in a way that putting something on top doesn't cause overheating and in fact is nice and flat and strong to begin with. Of course my purpose for contributing here isn't to get into arguments. It's simply to throw ideas and feedback into Dan's bag so he has a full list of things to consider, weigh and then ultimately decide on for his new project.
Interesting on the IEMs. I simply dislike the wear of things in my ears. On the go it's convenient and natural but for long-term listening at home I'm old-school and prefer on-ear cans :oops:
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I'm talking as a guy with a speaker & headphone system on the work desk. As you can see, to keep things reasonably tidy there's simply no room unless certain electronics double as monitor stand. And mine isn't a small desk but properly grown-up version :thumb: If the speakers weren't there, it'd be a different song. But if we're talking headphone amp with a second purpose as a desktop preamp... now it can easily become an issue where to put things. Hence my suggestion to style such a component in a way that putting something on top doesn't cause overheating and in fact is nice and flat and strong to begin with. Of course my purpose for contributing here isn't to get into arguments. It's simply to throw ideas and feedback into Dan's bag so he has a full list of things to consider, weigh and then ultimately decide on for his new project.
Get a bigger desk :D I have Event Opals on my desk on TerraStone platforms. The DAC is on a stand under my desk, and I use a passive pre for volume which is on little Symposium pads. The last thing I would want to do with a high-end DAC or HPA is plonk a monitor on top of it.
My advice would be to create basically a tube driven version of the Headamp GS-X. The feature set of the GS-X is just about perfect.
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Thank you all for the input!
Minimus, I AM planning on a hybrid design as I DO prefer some warmth, ALONG with the drive and dynamics of SS power.
At this point, I am thinking of a tube gain stage with differential SS output stage, direct-coupled with no output transformer or coupling caps at the headphone connection.
We shall see how this works out.
Price-wise, I DO hear you guys and I am also looking at what is being sold. There are A LOT of products in the $500 and less range. I don't intend to fish in that pond, but I do agree that if the price is too high, then it is rarified air.
Take care,
Dan W.
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...and the headphone/headamp world becomes even MORE interesting :thumb:
I was really excited when Paul G (Tube Audio Design) gave in to my naggings and began developing his first headamp (he was working on it at the time of his passing), and I love that another prominent AC'er is working on one now, as well.
Good luck, Dan...we're all looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
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Thank you. I did not know Paul G. and am sorry to hear of his passing.
We have lost too many good people in this industry over the past few short years it seems.
I am not going anywhere as far as I know….
I have some great tube/hybrid and SS ideas that I am pursuing. Hybrid design will be first, but I am also looking at taking some of our standard amp technology and simply revising it to suit the needs of a headphone design. Design principles are NOT that much different, except for total power and impedances. More on this later.
Alan Kimmel and I are noodling over a hybrid concept right now!
Thanks,
Dan
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Glad to hear you are giving this a shot! :thumb:
A semi-portable desktop unit is the sweet spot for me. Less than $1K sounds about right... $5-750 might get my dollars.
Glowing tubes on top and a little MW blue glow under chassis, bleeding up through the glass... and a big fat and heavy volume knob. :D
Can't wait to see what you come up with, Dan.
Cheers
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Hi, I expect that it will not be semi-portable and WILL be more than $1K. Sorry but without having the product built in Asia, we just CANNOT offer products at those prices. I am not really sure about having our products made overseas, despite the great savings, because I am always uncertain of build quality and reliability.
Thanks,
Dan
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I think there is a pretty good demand in the $1500 - $3000 price range depending on the features, specs, etc.
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Dan - I can say that I appreciate the made in the USA approach. It was one of the "pros" of picking up the 100SE and LS100.
I guess from my perspective If the price is nearing/exceeding the $3,000 range, I'd probably just invest that money into my larger system. If it's closer to the $1,000-$2,000 range, I'd be more interested/willing to increase/duplicate my music reproduction "tools".
Hope that helps and thanks again for reaching out and listening.
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Dan - Don't think I saw this among the previous replies...but a potential advantage of including a DAC in the amp would be to support DSD playback and computer listening without a bunch of extraneous wires and other components. This month's Absolute Sound predicts the number of DSD downloads to increase in the near future.
I do my headphone listening late at night (so as not to disturb anyone) with high resolution flac files on my Windows 7 laptop along with a few DSD downloads. I bit the bullet a few months ago and bought a Benchmark DAC2 HGC, one of the few (but growing) number of DACs that supports DSD playback, because I intend for my DSD collection to grow. I use J River Media Center 18 for playback software...an excellent product. Media Center 18 is their first release to support DSD playback.
There's a definite "house" sound to the Benchmark DACn product line...hyper accurate...vivid...somewhat sterile...a little bright sounding perhaps. The DAC2 is a definite improvement over the previous models, and DSD playback is superb. Would love to hear DSD playback on phones with some tube warmth and bloom. I alternate between Sennheiser 650's, AKG 702's, and Grado 225i. I'm not much of a fan of in-ear stuff...guess I was born too late.
I realize incorporating a DAC will increase cost, but there are a growing number of computer headphone audiophiles out there, relegated to late night phones listening, by family and circumstance. And DSD is "the next big thing" in computer audio playback. DSD support would help you differentiate your product from the rest of the pack.
Regards,
Denny
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Hi guys and thanks! I have a circuit right now that is hybrid, with discrete bufferd output, capable of driving virtually any load and I am determining how much power it needs, so that the supply can be designed properly. I am going to build it as a standalone headphone buffer first and then plug any/all of our tube preamps or tube sources into it, to determine how this works.
I will then settle on a tube gain stage and build a complete amp.
I may offer the straight headphone amp FIRST, without DAC, as this will be cheaper of course. I do THEN plan on offering a DAC/Headphone amp. DSD would be a must at that point of course.
Right now, I am finishing our current Elyse DAC design, our PH 150 standalone high-end phono design and the headphone amp is still in schematic stages.
Your input has been INCREDIBLY HELPFUL!
Thanks,
Dan
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I am going to build it as a standalone headphone buffer first and then plug any/all of our tube preamps or tube sources into it, to determine how this works.
This is interesting to me... any chance this version would be available to the public as a low cost option for those of us that already have one of your Pre-amps? I've wished for a headphone out on my 36.5 ever since I got it.
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Hi, interesting point! I will see how it works out and go from there! Ultimately, i do want to offer several different designs at different price points with different options. The top model will ultimately have all possible output connections and will suit the most demanding loads. I expect this design will have different outputs for different loads. I want this to have tubes and SS tech and would also expect to add DAC to it ultimately.
There is also a market for a more mainstream amp that works well for most regular headphones, down to 32 ohm Grados, but perhaps not the more modern TOUGH high power loads.
Regarding a zero gain design, a headphone amp REALLY doesn't need gain for most headphones, it just needs to match impedance and amplify current. This is exactly what the buffer only design would do.
More on this once I get a circuit bread boarded and evaluated. We already have a schematic concept, I just need to determine the necessary voltage rails and see how it sounds.
Thanks!
Dan
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It is Saturday night and I am Not working...OK so I am posting here, but ultimately I am chilling on the couch.
I have a glass of good bourbon in my hand, headphones plugged into my iPad, listening to Pandora. Headphones are Philips noise Canceling OE types (now don't be hatin') that I use when I travel.
Pretty mainstream, non-audiophile gear, but I have to say that this a great music escape and I am starting to see the appeal. I am going to invest in some Audeze, HiFi Man or similar modern headphones that are more state of the art for design purposes.
The point is, as our lives become crazier and more 'integrated', headphone listening makes a lot of sense. I am hearing that the new breed of headphones can TRULY compete with the best speakers out there.
An exciting new audio frontier indeed!
Thank you all for the input as I embark on this new design journey.
Happy Holidays!
Dan W.
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Doing roughly the same tonight - So I'll raise a glass to you and wish a Happy Holidays to you and yours!
Thanks for helping me enjoy a quiet Saturday night!
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Right on!
It is a beautiful time of the year and we all should take time to relax, clear our head of work and other stressors and be sure to spend quality time with our family, loved ones and significant others.
Happy Holidays!
Dan
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Happy New Year everyone! Dan, I just bought the Beyerdynnamic T5p and is is simply outsatnding. It is a 32ohm can and the sound is tight, transparent and has great punch. Plus, very comfortable.
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I may offer the straight headphone amp FIRST, without DAC, as this will be cheaper of course. I do THEN plan on offering a DAC/Headphone amp. DSD would be a must at that point of course.
Right now, I am finishing our current Elyse DAC design, our PH 150 standalone high-end phono design and the headphone amp is still in schematic stages.
Dan
Dan, you may want to think about what the guys at Berkeley did with the new Alpha Reference DAC. Their stance is basically "if you want to play DSD fine, but we're not going to compromise our DAC for it." Now that just about everything has a 24/192 capable asynchronous USB input, DSD support has become the next "gotta have it" feature, which has led to a lot of very mediocre sounding ESS9018 DACs, but hey, DSD!!! What they fail to tell you is that you'll get sound that's just as good by converting to PCM on your computer first, which is what Berkeley suggests you do.
In my experience, a properly engineered DAC built around the AD1955 or AKM4399 will still outperform the Sabre, though quite frankly they all lose to old grandpa - PCM1704. The current situation of DSD fever reminds me of the 20-bit days when everything had to have HDCD support. How'd that work out?
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Thanks for that! My approach with our DAC is to make it a GREAT DAC FIRST! I don't know what DSD will become or if it will stick around. It is a moving target and I too would rather build a great product and worry about the new technology as it is more mature.
I LIKE the sound of Burr Brown DACs. The 1704 IS an outstanding DAC, I agree! I chose the 1794 because of its sound and features. It HAS to be 24/192 capable of course. I am NOT a fan of up sampling and I prefer minimal, if any, analog filtering. Tube and transformer coupling bring the magic that I prefer!
It is a dance sometimes, to make a GREAT product AND meet the demands of current tech.
Happy New Year guys!
Dan
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That's good to hear that it's not Sabre based. The PCM179x is not my favorite, I still prefer Analog Devices or Asahi Kasei Microdevices, but it's a decent DAC, much like the Wolfson WM8741. The amount of hype surrounding ESS and the Sabre has just gotten completely out of hand. According to several engineers, it's also by far the most difficult S-D chip to work with to date, with a spec sheet that's full of holes and misinformation.
The problem with the 1704 is mostly one of cost. If you're building a reference level DAC you really need at least eight of them, four per channel. With current prices you're talking $550+, just in DAC chips. Contrast that with the sigma delta chips which all run about $10 ea. Somebody needs to come up with a new R2R chip for the modern age. Aside from the 1704, the only other one really left standing is the Philips TDA1543, which was never very good.
MSB does offer their R2R modules as OEM, but from what I understand the cost on those things is quite dear.
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Hi Dave and thanks. I have not used the AKM or AD DACs you mention. I have most experience with the BB 179x chips and I like their sound. They are also current output which is CRITICAL to me for my designs.
Be well!
Dan
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I may offer the straight headphone amp FIRST, without DAC, as this will be cheaper of course. I do THEN plan on offering a DAC/Headphone amp. DSD would be a must at that point of course.
Dan
At $1000+ I think most people would prefer a separate amp/dac in the headphone arena. For now, I think this is the deeper end of the pool, especially for the younger crowd. If you can get in below that price point it may open up more appeal for more sophisticated offerings later on.
Part-time Audiophile has a good article on head-fi that just went up
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/12/29/head-fi-versus-hi-fi-beats-by-dre-and-the-future-of-the-high-end/
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Yeah the AD and AKM chips are definitely less popular than TI and Wolfson, but they are in some absolutely phenomenal DACs. Probably the biggest proponent of AKM is Esoteric - they use 16 of them in the D-02 DAC. At the opposite end of the scale, Schiit audio uses them. Jason from Schiit said they went with the AKM4399 because of its internal switched capacitor filter which he feels makes it the most "R2R like" in terms of output noise.
The AD1955s predecessor was the AD1853 which was in some fantastic stuff like the Spectral SDR-4000 and Mark Levinson 390S. For whatever reason the 1955 hasn't been as popular, but you will find them in the Alpha DAC and Boulder's 1021.
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For whatever reason the 1955 hasn't been as popular, but you will find them in the Alpha DAC and Boulder's 1021.
The AD1955 is also used in the Emotiva XDA-2 (1X) and Stealth DC-1 (2X).
Steve
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Hi, first of all, to reply to the comment about DAC/Heaphone amps and pricing. I will not be producing anything under the $1K price-point. That is a market that I am simply not interested in competing in. We are not a high-volume company. Our products are high-end and custom. I know that the younger generation are likely to be purchasing in the < $1K price-point, but it doesn't make good business sense for a company of our size or structure.
I do not know what pricing will be, but I first intend to develop a headphone design by itself and see what its price needs to be. I will then see about the headphone/DAC combo and price it according to its build cost.
I appreciate all of the feedback. I agree that AKM DACs have sounded VERY good in products that I have heard over the years, quite often in products that are NOT expensive! I believe that AKM is a very innovative company! In this case, the TI (Burr Brown) part simply made more sense for us as I am most familiar with its sound.
Thanks,
Dan
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Sounds good. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Elyse turns out in final form, as SS DACs out number tube DACs by probably 20 to 1 or more.
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I keep my fingers crossed that Dan also uses his magic to include a great headphone amp in the Elyse. HP people are growing very rapidly and need a sota hpa with a sota dac together. And ModWright is just the company to do it. Some of us have to use headphones late at night, and I don't like to go down in quality when listening then.
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I am listning.... 8)
Thanks!
Dan
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I am listning.... 8)
Thanks!
Dan
So is your competition. :)
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I have no doubt...
Dan
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Saw pics of the newest DAC version. All I can say is awesome.
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Thanks! I will share pics of the new Phono production proto also…'
I have been busy!
Dan
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Hi Dan,
I am just starting my research for putting together a headphone rig and am thinking back to the time when I had Modwright gear in my system... The most real and jaw-dropping musical moments were with your gear.
I look forward to the release of this...
Jason
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Thank you Jason, I really appreciate that!
Please do stay in touch!
Dan