Crossovers Are Evil-

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Audiophile58

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Crossovers Are Evil-
« on: 22 Apr 2015, 11:28 am »
I wanted to bring to your attention a very good article regarding Loudspeakers and Evil  crossovers. The biggest reason many  people in the past don't use crossover less Loudspeakers  is for in the past the weak magnets and cheaper paper cones were used or plastic and the sound stage was not as big,or sound pressure levels were very limited
that is why you would see small amplifiers in a smaller room setting or moderate music playing level ,That Outdated mentality is still passed around by many who have never heard a top quality single driver loudspeaker such as Omega.This is why Many of Today's Audiophiles mainly buy on recommendations  of magazine based reviews ,which I know first hand that $$ Money  leads to getting many times a favorable review .You rarely ever see a big name company that spends well over
$100K a year in advertising get anything said negative .Even on-line there is at least one Big name that  has gotten away from their roots. It is OK to read a review but let your Ears  decide where to spend your monies. This is where Today's Crossover less speaker comes in Omega Loudspeakers by far in my vast Audio experience gives not only Fantastic  design and old world cabinet craftsmanship only seen in $$ Very expensive speakers. The use of Hemp cone fiber  used by some of the best in Pro Audio Tubby tone Bass comes to mind. which has a natural slightly warm character but still incredibly fast and light.Louis at Omega has spent many years of constant R&D progression today's Crossover less speakers,-Not off the shelf variants like Zu for example which BTW I have owned .These new drivers have several big advantages over multi driver speakers.They are much more efficient
for example a 93 db Loudspeaker vs a 87 db Loudspeaker you would need 10x the amplifier power,6db just to get to the same output @ 1w. I have owned every type of Loudspeaker made over the years and now came back to Omega for the Sonic purity is second to none.I went from a 300 wpc amp to now a 18wpc Jas Bravo SET amp and the purity with the Omegas is You are there with the performers .This is now a much more Pure sonic approach without all the power robbing as well as the original signal purity lost going through a Xover  Inductor coil, Multiple Capacitors ,then resistance variance  with Resistors, all that changes the Original signal that is even before it reaches the driver
then multiples drivers ,each one presents other sonic issues . With a Single Driver  you are getting the Original signal  which is Time and Phase accurate . meaning the sound
are 1st order  the High frequency as well as the critical Midrange-Midbass reach your ears  at the Same Time !! This is why it has that Realism and Accuracy. If you want full range Low Bass just buy a deep Hemp Powered Sub  to get the last 1.5 octaves .  Check out this review  from Audiophile review,                                   http://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/crossovers-are-evil.html   They mention using a digital crossover ,but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal . I own the Omega Outlaw 1.5 , Now waiting-Seems like  Forever - on MY  Alnico XRS6 Monitors. For the  Exact model recommendation for your musical taste, Room size and equipment used, Louis is the man that will get the right speaker and or sub combination for you .

macrojack

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #1 on: 22 Apr 2015, 12:01 pm »
Apparently you also feel that punctuation is evil.

Audiophile58

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #2 on: 22 Apr 2015, 01:03 pm »
To All my message is about the negatives of the Less is more approach in Crossoverless speaker design.
My punctuation - grammar could be much better I agree, that being said It is the message about A specific Audio subject I am trying to make please excuse any of my errors, Thank you.

roscoe65

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #3 on: 22 Apr 2015, 02:32 pm »
It has less to do with grammar and punctuation per se and more to do with being able to actually read the paragraphs.  You've posted what is commonly referred to as a "wall of text" that is all but unreadable on a computer screen.

For better legibility, add some paragraphs breaks for the reader.

srb

Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #4 on: 22 Apr 2015, 02:43 pm »
You've posted what is commonly referred to as a "wall of text" that is all but unreadable on a computer screen.

For better legibility, add some paragraphs breaks for the reader.

+1

If you did, I would actually consider reading it.

DaveC113

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #5 on: 22 Apr 2015, 02:55 pm »
There's lots of ways to skin a cat, the issue with crossovers being they can be difficult to design and parts that maintain the integrity of the signal are expensive. So you must build with multiple drivers, a more complicated cabinet and add expensive crossover parts. If you look at it like that, then it's apparent how Omega is capable of delivering the kind of value they are known for. IME, it takes a very expensive and well designed multi-way speaker to compete.




mresseguie

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #6 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:00 pm »
Oh, come on, guys. I taught EFL for nearly twenty years and I was able to read it even though I lost track of lines twice. Look beyond the errors and/or format to find the passion of the writer.

Audiophile58,

It's all good. I understand your intent and your passion.  :thumb: 

I'm going to listen to Omega speakers in CanadaRob's showroom in under two weeks. Perhaps I will come to understand why you are so passionate about Louis's speakers.  :)

Enjoy!

Michael


RDavidson

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #7 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:28 pm »
+1 mresseguie

It isn't that hard to follow. Besides, this is a forum. It's not like the OP is trying to communicate to a higher authority or is interviewing for a job where proper grammar, punctuation, and sentence formulation is paramount.

JRace

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #8 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:40 pm »
They mention using a digital crossover ,but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal .
While I do have 2 pairs of single driver, cross over-less speakers, and enjoy them immensely, could you explain this a little bit?

Tyson

Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #9 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:40 pm »
Apparently you also feel that punctuation is evil.


Nice and true I could not agree more the only thing more annoying is when people use all caps all the time boy is that really annoying and another thing is when everything is not formatted properly so that the page breaks do not occur where they should making it really hard to read the entire thing plus run on sentences are really difficult to deal with because what the hell are you saying and why are you taking so long to say it I mean we are human beings not gods so we cannot divine where and when to delineate your ideas it is your responsibility to make sure things are properly delineated and clearly understandable or we will just think that you are a bit of a babbling idiot and not take time to read what you wrote or come to the conclusion that what you say is wrong even if it is right which is why you really want to focus in on this area and make sure you are following proper grammar rules because you don't want people to dismiss what you have to say just because of how you write and not based on what you write.  See?

srb

Re: Crossovers Are Evil
« Reply #10 on: 22 Apr 2015, 03:47 pm »
Quote from: Audiophile58 on Today at 04:28:48 am

"I wanted to bring to your attention a very good article regarding Loudspeakers and Evil crossovers.  The biggest reason many people in the past don't use crossover less Loudspeakers is for in the past the weak magnets and cheaper paper cones were used or plastic and the sound stage was not as big, or sound pressure levels were very limited that is why you would see small amplifiers in a smaller room setting or moderate music playing level.

That Outdated mentality is still passed around by many who have never heard a top quality single driver loudspeaker such as Omega.  This is why Many of Today's Audiophiles mainly buy on recommendations of magazine based reviews, which I know first hand that $$ Money leads to getting many times a favorable review.  You rarely ever see a big name company that spends well over $100K a year in advertising get anything said negative.  Even on-line there is at least one Big name that has gotten away from their roots. It is OK to read a review but let your Ears decide where to spend your monies.

This is where Today's Crossover less speaker comes in Omega Loudspeakers by far in my vast Audio experience gives not only Fantastic design and old world cabinet craftsmanship only seen in $$ Very expensive speakers.  The use of Hemp cone fiber used by some of the best in Pro Audio Tubby tone Bass comes to mind, which has a natural slightly warm character but still incredibly fast and light.  Louis at Omega has spent many years of constant R&D progression today's Crossover less speakers, Not off the shelf variants like Zu for example which BTW I have owned.

These new drivers have several big advantages over multi driver speakers.  They are much more efficient, for example a 93 db Loudspeaker vs a 87 db Loudspeaker you would need 10x the amplifier power, 6db just to get to the same output @ 1w.  I have owned every type of Loudspeaker made over the years and now came back to Omega for the Sonic purity is second to none.  I went from a 300 wpc amp to now a 18wpc Jas Bravo SET amp and the purity with the Omegas is You are there with the performers.  This is now a much more Pure sonic approach without all the power robbing as well as the original signal purity lost going through a Xover Inductor coil, Multiple Capacitors, then resistance variance with Resistors, all that changes the Original signal that is even before it reaches the driver then multiples drivers, each one presents other sonic issues.

With a Single Driver you are getting the Original signal which is Time and Phase accurate, meaning the sound are 1st order the High frequency as well as the critical Midrange-Midbass reach your ears at the Same Time !!  This is why it has that Realism and Accuracy.  If you want full range Low Bass just buy a deep Hemp Powered Sub to get the last 1.5 octaves.

Check out this review from Audiophile review, http://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/crossovers-are-evil.html  They mention using a digital crossover, but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal.  I own the Omega Outlaw 1.5, Now waiting - Seems like Forever - on MY Alnico XRS6 Monitors.  For the Exact model recommendation for your musical taste, Room size and equipment used, Louis is the man that will get the right speaker and or sub combination for you."

pstrisik

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #11 on: 22 Apr 2015, 06:17 pm »
While I do have 2 pairs of single driver, cross over-less speakers, and enjoy them immensely, could you explain this a little bit?

I'm not the OP but can address this.

A digital xover general refers to one that goes before amplification in the chain.  Since a defined frequency range is presented to the amplifier and the amplified signal does not pass through any further electronics, this is greatly preferable to using crossovers between the amp and speakers.  Disadvantages of speaker level xo's are well known on this forum.

So far so good. 

But, if you have a favorite DAC, the digital crossover would handle the signal after it.  This means the digital xo would have its own DAC do the decoding (for the second time, unless you remove your favorite DAC from the system) and therefore affecting the analog signal generated by your carefully chosen DAC.  The way around this is to find a digital crossover that has DAC functions to your liking, if that's possible.

Taking "it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal" further .....   If you are playing an entirely analog system, eg, turntable, you are now introducing digital conversion (ADC => DAC) into a signal path that was purely analog.

--------------

There are line level crossovers or filters that do not digitize the signal, but many of them suck db's out of the signal.  This is important with low wattage SET amplification as there often isn't that much to spare.  I've tried Harrison FMODs (sucked out 10db!!) and a Paradigm X-30 subwoofer control that has a high pass filter (sucked out 4db's).  If money weren't a concern and I was to try another, it would be the First Watt B4.  Infinitely flexible in its frequency and slope configuration, but not cheap at $1500 MSRP.  I don't know the insertion loss for this unit.  I would hope it would be minimal given that it is Nelson Pass' design (http://www.firstwatt.com/b4.html).

--------------

My solution will be to follow the great tip offered by my amplifier's designer, Dennis Had.  He told me how to insert a single resistor in each channel - within the amp itself - that would slowly roll off the signal below 110Hz.  This will allow me to make better use of mid-bass woofers (50hz up to 200hz) and subwoofers (below 50hz).  More on this project to follow in a bit.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2015, 09:50 pm by pstrisik »

a.wayne

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #12 on: 22 Apr 2015, 06:43 pm »
The main reason is the high distortion and limited bandwidth of a single driver driven fullrange is a pretty big issue to some....



Regards..

sebrof

Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #13 on: 22 Apr 2015, 06:59 pm »
I don't believe I've ever heard Omega speakers but I have heard a number of single driver speakers of different designs and they can sound excellent.
But you could write a big paragraph (or 6 smaller paragraphs, thanks srb) that are just as convincing as to why multi-way speakers are better...

All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.

Canada Rob

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #14 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:16 pm »
The main reason is the high distortion and limited bandwidth of a single driver driven fullrange is a pretty big issue to some....

Check out any current Omega and you might change your mind.

FireGuy

Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #15 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:30 pm »
Check out any current Omega and you might change your mind.

:thumb:

BobRex

Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #16 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:34 pm »
My solution will be to follow the great tip offered by my amplifier's designer, Dennis Had.  He told me how to insert a single resistor in each channel - within the amp itself - that would slowly roll off the signal below 110db.  This will allow me to make better use of mid-bass woofers (50hz up to 200hz) and subwoofers (below 50hz).  More on this project to follow in a bit.

Ummm, I'm not quite following here....  Are you sure Dennis didn't suggest a single CAPACITOR that would roll the signal off below 110Hz?  That's the typical method, and in fact, that is a first order crossover.  The resistor has a nominal amount of reactance, so it MAY roll the signal a tiny bit - probably less than  a dB at 20Hz. 

FullRangeMan

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #17 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:38 pm »
The topic title say it all, xovers are bad.

pstrisik

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #18 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:42 pm »
Ummm, I'm not quite following here....  Are you sure Dennis didn't suggest a single CAPACITOR that would roll the signal off below 110Hz?  That's the typical method, and in fact, that is a first order crossover.  The resistor has a nominal amount of reactance, so it MAY roll the signal a tiny bit - probably less than  a dB at 20Hz.

If I were putting a line level filter before the amp's inputs, I would use a capacitor (possibly a resistor as well).  This is actually changing the internal design of the amp by adding a resistor soldered to one of the tube socket pins and to ground.

To quote Dennis:  "Simply add a 100K , 1/2 watt resistor from pin #6 to ground on the KT-150 tube socket.  This will start a natural roll-off internally at 110 Hz with the signal down 3 dB at 60 Hz.  This will not change the the output phase angle like adding series caps on the input."




rajacat

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Re: Crossovers Are Evil-
« Reply #19 on: 22 Apr 2015, 07:46 pm »
I don't believe I've ever heard Omega speakers but I have heard a number of single driver speakers of different designs and they can sound excellent.
But you could write a big paragraph (or 6 smaller paragraphs, thanks srb) that are just as convincing as to why multi-way speakers are better...

All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.
+1