AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: HiFiJeff on 28 Nov 2016, 08:46 pm
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So I currently own a pair of Supercharged 3XRS's with the active built in 8inch sub. Which I love! But I am going to a dual RS5 floor stander without the subs built in. I will be adding subs later on. The speakers sound amazing by themself but the sub really fills everything out, there is only so much bass a 4.5 driver can produce. Anyway, I saw someone on this forum using his Omega's setting on top of Omega subs and then using larger subs for the real low stuff. He was also using some kind of outboard crossover. And had a 110HZ and above signal going from the crossover to the SET amp which in turn fed his Omega's. This is kind of what I want to do. Having two 8 or 10inch subs to integrate with my Omega's and then maybe a single 15inch sub to handle the real low stuff and movie soundtracks. What would be the best approach to this? And do the Omega's really shine with a little bass management or do they sound best just sending them a full range signal? I have seen even some full range speakers truly come into their own with some bass management and subs augmenting the low end octaves.
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Sounds like me. The mid-bass woofers are Rythmik driver and amp with Louis graciously building cabs to integrate with and match the SAMs. I have Rythmik 12" subs separately to augment the very low end.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0
The early part of the thread is planning. There is more real stuff later on after I received them.
I am using a Marchand outboard active variable crossover. The variable part has let me experiment with xover frequencies. For me, there is a clear tradeoff between fullness/body and ethereal imaging. The former with higher xover points and the latter with lower. Given that I also have the 12" subs, I have been able to find something of the best of both worlds. Seems odd, but I'm crossing over now at 70Hz. The mid-bass woofers and subs cross over at 50Hz (I have a choice between 30 and 50). So those are tight ranges. Very effective though.
.......Peter
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Sounds like me. The mid-bass woofers are Rythmik driver and amp with Louis graciously building cabs to integrate with and match the SAMs. I have Rythmik 12" subs separately to augment the very low end.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0
The early part of the thread is planning. There is more real stuff later on after I received them.
I am using a Marchand outboard active variable crossover. The variable part has let me experiment with xover frequencies. For me, there is a clear tradeoff between fullness/body and ethereal imaging. The former with higher xover points and the latter with lower. Given that I also have the 12" subs, I have been able to find something of the best of both worlds. Seems odd, but I'm crossing over now at 70Hz. The mid-bass woofers and subs cross over at 50Hz (I have a choice between 30 and 50). So those are tight ranges. Very effective though.
.......Peter
I am trying to read and work all at the same time so I might have missed something. So your monitors cover 60hz and higher, the mid bass is 60-30 then everything below that to the big subs?
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I have the Super Alnico High Output speakers. I run them full range and have an SVS2000 12" sub crossed over at 60Hz for the deep bass.
When I bought these speakers Louis suggested that I might want to keep the sub, which I had been using with my previous Omegas..
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I am trying to read and work all at the same time so I might have missed something. So your monitors cover 60hz and higher, the mid bass is 60-30 then everything below that to the big subs?
The monitors are doing 70Hz up and the mid-bass is 70-50. Sub below 50.
When I run the Sams with the woofers but no sub, I set the woofers to extend down to 30Hz. If we ever move, particularly to a smaller space, I wouldn't be upset about having to leave the subs behind.
But, as Doggie suggests, a pair of subs of some kind is definitely an enhancement over which we have great control, like setting the low pass frequency, sometimes slope and damping factor (Rythmiks), as well as gain and phase. Once tweaked in for a smooth, continuous frequency range, etc., they become part of the whole, ie, don't hear subs. IMO, no down side except in your pocket and floor space. Even the floor space could be minimal if monitors over subs.
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HiFi Jeff I have a Martin Logan Depth i sub I'm using with my new Super 3 High Output XRSs. My pre has two line level outs. I run one to the Kitoki which runs the Omegas full range. Pure signal path. The second out goes to the sub. The low pass on the sub is set to 35hz. It has a pretty gentle but fixed slope. I have a four position phase control, a master gain and a secondary gain hinged at 25hz. The sub has three 8" drivers designed to minimize room and cabinet resonances. A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room. If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.
Michael
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I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp. Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers? http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/ (http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/)
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HiFi Jeff I have a Martin Logan Depth i sub I'm using with my new Super 3 High Output XRSs. My pre has two line level outs. I run one to the Kitoki which runs the Omegas full range. Pure signal path. The second out goes to the sub. The low pass on the sub is set to 35hz. It has a pretty gentle but fixed slope. I have a four position phase control, a master gain and a secondary gain hinged at 25hz. The sub has three 8" drivers designed to minimize room and cabinet resonances. A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room. If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.
Michael
Hey Hubb,
Can you clarify? So your pre-amp has 2 sets of line level outs, is that what you mean? So one pair goes ton the Kitoki's inputs and the the other pair goes to the amp on the subwoofer right? That's what I have on my dac. One set of pre-outs and one line level out that specifically says subwoofer out.
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HiFiJeff - Bingo. That's it e exactly.
Michael
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...A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room. If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.
+1. As my system gets better I find more and more that room set up was holding me back all along. I am now focusing on the positioning of the Omegas and the sub relative to the room and my listening position. I have a few acoustic panels but am finding that things like toe-in and tilt-back make a huge difference. Even the placement of other pieces of furniture and wall decorations matter. Unfortunately some of these things may be hard to change especially if your living companion has input :-)
The room IS the elephant!
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I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp. Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers? http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/ (http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/)
I use Harrison hi-pass filters for my supertweeters. A pair of 15kHz, 2nd order slope before the amp that powers the tweeters. They do ok for that purpose. I don't know how the quality would be in a more critical range like 100-150Hz. They do have some insertion loss. He claims very low, but I can tell audibly.
But, at something like $25 a pair, they are certainly worth a try. If I were going that route, I would order a pair at my best guess for optimal filter frequency. Maybe two pair to try two different frequencies. I could then get a sense of what frequency really would be my preference - either one of those or a bit higher or lower. I could then get a better quality filter at that frequency. A great contender would be Marchand (he made my variable crossover, model XM66). He has a simple passive (as in not powered) hi-pass filter at $295. You can specify the frequency and the slope. I would really want to know what frequency I wanted since you can't change it. So Harrison FMODs could help build that confidence.
But, it may be that the FMODs do the trick for you on their own.
To make things more complicated (never simple are they?), what is the slope on the Omega subs? Is it adjustable? Harrison only makes 2nd order I think; maybe he would do 4th order as custom for extra $$. The slopes of low pass in the sub and high pass to the mains don't have to match, but they should on paper.
.........Peter
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+1. As my system gets better I find more and more that room set up was holding me back all along. I am now focusing on the positioning of the Omegas and the sub relative to the room and my listening position. I have a few acoustic panels but am finding that things like toe-in and tilt-back make a huge difference. Even the placement of other pieces of furniture and wall decorations matter. Unfortunately some of these things may be hard to change especially if your living companion has input :-)
The room IS the elephant!
Finding the proper toe-in was absolutely crucial for my Omegas. They required more than I expected, but when I got it right the soundstage snapped into focus and everything turned magical. I've bumped one speaker or the other out of alignment a couple of times and it makes a difference that is immediately apparent.
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I use Harrison hi-pass filters for my supertweeters. A pair of 15kHz, 2nd order slope before the amp that powers the tweeters. They do ok for that purpose. I don't know how the quality would be in a more critical range like 100-150Hz. They do have some insertion loss. He claims very low, but I can tell audibly.
But, at something like $25 a pair, they are certainly worth a try. If I were going that route, I would order a pair at my best guess for optimal filter frequency. Maybe two pair to try two different frequencies. I could then get a sense of what frequency really would be my preference - either one of those or a bit higher or lower. I could then get a better quality filter at that frequency. A great contender would be Marchand (he made my variable crossover, model XM66). He has a simple passive (as in not powered) hi-pass filter at $295. You can specify the frequency and the slope. I would really want to know what frequency I wanted since you can't change it. So Harrison FMODs could help build that confidence.
But, it may be that the FMODs do the trick for you on their own.
To make things more complicated (never simple are they?), what is the slope on the Omega subs? Is it adjustable? Harrison only makes 2nd order I think; maybe he would do 4th order as custom for extra $$. The slopes of low pass in the sub and high pass to the mains don't have to match, but they should on paper.
.........Peter
Thanks, I don't know what the slope is on the DeepOmega cross-over. I may start out with something pretty low (50Hz maybe) since I'm not looking for any sort of radical change, just to take a bit of the lowest lows off the speakers and see what difference it makes.
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Thanks, I don't know what the slope is on the DeepOmega cross-over. I may start out with something pretty low (50Hz maybe) since I'm not looking for any sort of radical change, just to take a bit of the lowest lows off the speakers and see what difference it makes.
I've not heard Louis' subs but, since he made them, I'm sure they will do better than average blending with his mains.
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Yep, without a doubt.
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I've not heard Louis' subs but, since he made them, I'm sure they will do better than average blending with his mains.
Absolutely! My built in active 8's are seamless. I can't tell that I am listening to a subwoofer. It's just a wall of sound. No localization at all. Love it!
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You can get great results going down this path. However, it's expensive and complicated...
I would invest in a calibrated mic with the OmniMic system or REW, it's really easy to use and understand and will point you in the right direction. Then, get a 2x4 DSP system, just a basic one to experiment with crossover slope and frequency.
For starting points, if you can get a sub right next to each speaker, firing forward and in stereo you can probably push the crossover frequency up to around 150 Hz (depending on the sub, some won't sound good up that high), which will really fill out the impact and energy in the low end. Start with a 1st order crossover on the Omegas and see if that's enough so you avoid excessive excursion at the volumes you'll be listening. Bass is usually better crossed over steeper, like 24 dB. But with DSP you can dial it in to your gear and preferences.
The biggest issue with this is the large amount of capacitance you need for the high pass filter on the Omegas. To not significantly degrade the sound you'll want to use something like Clarity ESA 250V caps with a Jupiter copper foil bypass cap. This will cost hundreds of dollars, and is why you need to measure and experiment before putting the cash down. There are other ways to skin the cat, like a very high rez DSP system, I have a 32/384 unit, but it's not going to be any less expensive than a pile of film caps.
I think for bass you can use the DSP for xo or get a Crown amp with built-in DSP... I'd avoid plate amps. And for the sub go with one that has a driver that sounds ok at higher frequencies. Louis might be able to make front-firing 8s, also AudioKenisis might have a good solution... Maybe get 4 and flank each speaker... :)
While this is more hassle the results will be much better than a traditional sub xo'ed around 50-60 Hz and running the mains full range. The Omegas will be able to play at SPLs you never thought possible, and you'll get the impact/energy in the 50-150 Hz range far better. It can be done seamlessly but might not be easy or inexpensive.
I've heard a lot of tweeters and the Fostex T500AMkII are the ones to get imo, put them on top of the speaker aimed right at the LP. Only a small cap required for xo... I'm using .57 uF right now. Basically, I'm attenuating a higher efficiency tweeter by raising the xo point instead of using resistors. For this, it works perfectly. Lower end tweeters might not be worthwhile... yes the tweeters cost as much as the speakers, but they are totally transparent and blend with the RS5 drivers perfectly.
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You can get great results going down this path. However, it's expensive and complicated...
I would invest in a calibrated mic with the OmniMic system or REW, it's really easy to use and understand and will point you in the right direction. Then, get a 2x4 DSP system, just a basic one to experiment with crossover slope and frequency.
For starting points, if you can get a sub right next to each speaker, firing forward and in stereo you can probably push the crossover frequency up to around 150 Hz (depending on the sub, some won't sound good up that high), which will really fill out the impact and energy in the low end. Start with a 1st order crossover on the Omegas and see if that's enough so you avoid excessive excursion at the volumes you'll be listening. Bass is usually better crossed over steeper, like 24 dB. But with DSP you can dial it in to your gear and preferences.
The biggest issue with this is the large amount of capacitance you need for the high pass filter on the Omegas. To not significantly degrade the sound you'll want to use something like Clarity ESA 250V caps with a Jupiter copper foil bypass cap. This will cost hundreds of dollars, and is why you need to measure and experiment before putting the cash down. There are other ways to skin the cat, like a very high rez DSP system, I have a 32/384 unit, but it's not going to be any less expensive than a pile of film caps.
I think for bass you can use the DSP for xo or get a Crown amp with built-in DSP... I'd avoid plate amps. And for the sub go with one that has a driver that sounds ok at higher frequencies. Louis might be able to make front-firing 8s, also AudioKenisis might have a good solution... Maybe get 4 and flank each speaker... :)
While this is more hassle the results will be much better than a traditional sub xo'ed around 50-60 Hz and running the mains full range. The Omegas will be able to play at SPLs you never thought possible, and you'll get the impact/energy in the 50-150 Hz range far better. It can be done seamlessly but might not be easy or inexpensive.
I've heard a lot of tweeters and the Fostex T500AMkII are the ones to get imo, put them on top of the speaker aimed right at the LP. Only a small cap required for xo... I'm using .57 uF right now. Basically, I'm attenuating a higher efficiency tweeter by raising the xo point instead of using resistors. For this, it works perfectly. Lower end tweeters might not be worthwhile... yes the tweeters cost as much as the speakers, but they are totally transparent and blend with the RS5 drivers perfectly.
Thank you so very much for your information and everyone's input. Dave you have always given me great advice. I love audio and I love our hobby. But you are correct. This all seems very complicated and expensive. Heck, half of what you were talking about is like a foreign language to me. I am sorry to be so ignorant on the subject but I would consider myself quite the novice. I just know what I like and what sounds good to me. I really do value the opinions and advice given on this forum, for the most part, it's great advice from people who all share our passion. But man, I want to try to keep things simple. I like the minimalist system I have right now but know I want to turn it into a more dynamic and a little more powerful system. Especially for home theater purposes. Hints the reason I am having Louis build me the dual driver RS5 speaker.
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I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp. Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers? http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/ (http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/)
My buddy is high passing his Super Alnico Monitors with these Harrison gizmos, placed line level between pre and amp. He tried both the 50Hz and 70Hz, and prefers the 70Hz in his rig.
He says they work like a charm with no detectable sonic degradation. By removing the lows, he can play the SAMs louder with less distortion, greater purity, and a big holographic soundfield. He runs his 2nd preamp output into his Gallo sub to fill in the lower range. Tells me it blends perfectly, with no sub localization.
Says that with this setup, he's getting best sound he's ever had. I haven't personally heard his rig, but he's very experienced with lots of good gear, so I'd tend to believe him.
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Thanks, definitely worth a shot for ~$25 a pair. Much cheaper to experiment with than the First Watt B4 Active Crossover :smoke:
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Thanks, definitely worth a shot for ~$25 a pair. Much cheaper to experiment with than the First Watt B4 Active Crossover :smoke:
Yeh...he was initially looking at an active x-over approach, but is very happy that this simple and cheap passive solution is working so well.
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Do you have a link to these Gizmos?
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http://www.parts-express.com/brand/harrison-labs/265
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http://www.parts-express.com/brand/harrison-labs/265
Thanks a lot for this info. I am for sure trying this. So I would connect these in between my pre amp and amp and the connector would plug into the amp?
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Yeh...he was initially looking at an active x-over approach, but is very happy that this simple and cheap passive solution is working so well.
So if I want to send a signal of say 70HZ and above to my Omega's, I would buy the 70HZ High Pass ones? I would assume that the low pass ones would send anything 70 and below to the speakers. Is that correct?
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Thanks a lot for this info. I am for sure trying this. So I would connect these in between my pre amp and amp and the connector would plug into the amp?
Not 100% sure, but I think the high pass filter plugs into amp input.
Something to keep in mind when using these......
Since your main amp is now not receiving LF info, you cannot connect the sub high level via speaker cables. You will now need to connect it low level via RCA i/c. This means your preamp needs to have 2 pair of variable outputs.
If preamp only has one pair of outputs, an adapter like this provides a workable solution:
http://www.vampirewire.com/product-page/de4dabd4-c911-0c4c-02f2-ca28f08f43b2
But more "junk" in the chain, might possibly effect sonics?
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You can also go direct to Harrison Labs to purchase: http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/
Technically, this is still an active crossover (or high pass filter) since it is before the amplifier. Passive crossovers are generally considered to be those after the amplifier (like the ones inside multi-way speakers). Though there is some confusion about terminology. Sometimes people refer to powered crossovers as active and non powered as passive.
To answer your question, yes, just insert the filter in line with the interconnect that goes to your amp (ie, before your amp). Go to the link and you'll see an example photo of the filter. One end is female RCA, the other is male RCA. Doesn't matter which end of the interconnect - either coming out of the source or preamp or going into the amp.
And yes, you want a high pass filter. The term means that frequencies higher than the filter designation are passed through, lower ones are not.
HTH ..........Peter
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So if I want to send a signal of say 70HZ and above to my Omega's, I would buy the 70HZ High Pass ones? I would assume that the low pass ones would send anything 70 and below to the speakers. Is that correct?
Exactly correct! :thumb:
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But my subs will still be receiving 70hz and above signals, correct? Just like my mains will be receiving?
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Technically, this is still an active crossover (or high pass filter) since it is before the amplifier. Passive crossovers are generally considered to be those after the amplifier (like the ones inside multi-way speakers). Though there is some confusion about terminology. Sometimes people refer to powered crossovers as active and non powered as passive.
Spot on accurate! :thumb:
I am guilty of this terminology error / confusion.
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But my subs will still be receiving 70hz and above signals, correct? Just like my mains will be receiving?
If you connect your sub low level via IC, it will receive the full musical signal. Use the subs internal "low pass" filter to control how high it plays.
When using Harrison hi-pass filters, you must connect sub this way....for reason I explained in reply 25 above.
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Not 100% sure, but I think the high pass filter plugs into amp input.
Something to keep in mind when using these......
Since your main amp is now not receiving LF info, you cannot connect the sub high level via speaker cables. You will now need to connect it low level via RCA i/c. This means your preamp needs to have 2 pair of variable outputs.
If preamp only has one pair of outputs, an adapter like this provides a workable solution:
http://www.vampirewire.com/product-page/de4dabd4-c911-0c4c-02f2-ca28f08f43b2
But more "junk" in the chain, might possibly effect sonics?
I actually have one of those. Back when I was running dual subs in a home theater system and my AVR only had 1 out I had to use that.
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I actually have one of those. Back when I was running dual subs in a home theater system and my AVR only had 1 out I had to use that.
In a traditional 2 channel music system that does not output a single LFE channel (like a HT receiver does), you need two: one for L preamp output, one for R.
If using one sub, you run both signals into sub, and the sub's internal circuitry combines the signal.
If using two subs, run L into one, R into the other.
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In a traditional 2 channel music system that does not output a single LFE channel (like a HT receiver does), you need two: one for L preamp output, one for R.
If using one sub, you run both signals into sub, and the sub's internal circuitry combines the signal.
If using two subs, run L into one, R into the other.
So you are saying it my be a better solution to have a pre-amp that has a left and right sub out?
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So you are saying it my be a better solution to have a pre-amp that has a left and right sub out?
Not saying which is better, just addressing practical issues of connectivity.
I'm simply saying.....
If you use 70Hz high-pass filters to block LF info from your main amp / main speakers ....
Then you cannot connect sub to main amp via speaker cables.
Reason: main amp is now only outputting 70Hz and above. It does not contain anything below 70Hz.....which is what the sub needs!
Sub needs to get LF info, so you need to connect it to preamp outputs via IC.
The sub will receive the full signal, and the user then sets sub's internal low-pass filter to control how high into the FR the sub plays.
The above applies to a traditional 2 channel listening system, not a HT receiver.
If your HT receiver has a single LFE output for sub (which most do), then run it into your sub's single LFE input (which most subs have). Typically, the listener sets the sub's crossover point inside the HT receiver. Once setup, the HT receiver outputs XX Hz and below into the sub.
XX = low-pass frequency that the listener designates
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Not saying which is better, just addressing practical issues of connectivity.
I'm simply saying.....
If you use 70Hz high-pass filters to block LF info from your main amp / main speakers ....
Then you cannot connect sub to main amp via speaker cables.
Reason: main amp is now only outputting 70Hz and above. It does not contain anything below 70Hz.....which is what the sub needs!
Sub needs to get LF info, so you need to connect it to preamp outputs via IC.
The sub will receive the full signal, and the user then sets sub's internal low-pass filter to control how high into the FR the sub plays.
The above applies to a traditional 2 channel listening system, not a HT receiver.
If your HT receiver has a single LFE output for sub (which most do), then run it into your sub's single LFE input (which most subs have). Typically, the listener sets the sub's crossover point inside the HT receiver. So the sub receives XX Hz and below from the HT receiver.
I get what you are saying but this is the point I am trying to make. Will the subs get 70HZ signals and above if I keep them hooked up the way I do now? I know a lot of people using their Omega 8's all the way up to 150HZ signals. So what if I want to send 70HZ and above to my main speakers with the built in subs and then crossover the subs at 150HZ, or a little lower and then send real low frequencies to one bigger sub? Especially for home theater use or hip hop music or something like that? Would you suggest that? I am trying to get the best of both worlds out of my system, that's what prompted me to ask this question to begin with.
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Sorry, I'm not clear on your actual specific setup, so I can't comment.
can you link me to where it is explained clearly?
Photos of your actual connections are helpful.
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Reason: main amp is now only outputting 70Hz and above. It does not contain anything below 70Hz.....which is what the sub needs!
This was kind of my next question. Since the amp is now only getting 70Hz signals and above, does this also make the amp run more efficient? Because it doesn't have to produce the lower frequencies?
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I get what you are saying but this is the point I am trying to make. Will the subs get 70HZ signals and above if I keep them hooked up the way I do now? I know a lot of people using their Omega 8's all the way up to 150HZ signals. So what if I want to send 70HZ and above to my main speakers with the built in subs and then crossover the subs at 150HZ, or a little lower and then send real low frequencies to one bigger sub? Especially for home theater use or hip hop music or something like that? Would you suggest that? I am trying to get the best of both worlds out of my system, that's what prompted me to ask this question to begin with.
I think I understand what you're wanting to do...
Option #1
Pre-amp Output #1 --> 70Hz In-line Crossover --> Amp --> Speaker Cables to full-range speakers receiving 70 Hz+
--> Speaker Cables to speaker level input on small sub receiving 70 Hz+ w/ Low-pass set to 150 Hz
Pre-amp Output #2 (or LFE output) -------------------------> Big sub w/ Low-pass crossover set to ~70 Hz
Option #2
Pre-amp Output #1 --> 70Hz In-line Crossover --> Amp --> Speaker Cables to full-range speakers receiving 70 Hz+
Pre-amp Output #2 --> Stereo RCA Cables --> Big Sub RCA Inputs --> Big Sub Low-pass set to play 70Hz and below
Big Sub Pre-amp Output sending 70 Hz+ --> Stereo RCA Cables --> Small Sub RCA Inputs --> Low-pass set to 150 Hz
Edit: And yes, the full-range amplifier is doing less work with the lower freqs filtered out.
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Speakers.
http://omegaloudspeakers.com/omegaoutlawsuper.html
Amp.
http://decware.com/newsite/SE84CKC.html
Pre-amp
http://nl.yamaha.com/nl/products/audio-visual/wireless_streaming_amplifiers/wxc-50/
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Reason: main amp is now only outputting 70Hz and above. It does not contain anything below 70Hz.....which is what the sub needs!
This was kind of my next question. Since the amp is now only getting 70Hz signals and above, does this also make the amp run more efficient? Because it doesn't have to produce the lower frequencies?
Yes. Also, relieving your single driver of the lower frequencies will allow it to play louder before distorting, so it will sound cleaner, more open and refined, and play with greater ease. Even at lower SPL's these benefits will be observed.
At least this is what myself and two buddies experienced when high-passing our Omegas. We all thought the effect was not subtle.
(speakers involved are Super 3XRS, Super 7XRS mk2, Super Alnico Monitors. We all have Gallo CLS-10 sub)
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I think I understand what you're wanting to do...
Option #1
Pre --> 70Hz In-line Crossover --> Amp --> Speaker Cables to full-range speakers receiving 70 Hz+
--> Speaker Cable to speaker level input on 'sub' receiving 70 Hz+ w/ Low-pass set to 150 Mhz
--> Pre-amp LFE or 2nd Pre-amp output --> Big sub w/ Low-pass crossover set to ~70 Hz
Option #2
Pre-amp Output #1 --> 70Hz In-line Crossover --> Amp --> Speaker Cables to full-range speakers receiving 70 Hz+
Pre-amp Output #2 --> Stereo RCA Cables --> Big Sub RCA Inputs --> Big Sub Low-pass set to play 70Hz and below
Big Sub Pre-amp Output sending 70 Hz+ --> Stereo RCA Cables --> Small Sub RCA Inputs --> Low-pass set to 150 MHz
You got it! Option # 1! That is exactly what I am getting at. This might be a real good option.
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Here is a visual.
I looked up a chart on the frequency spectrum and this is what I found.
sub bass 31 to 62 (and lower)
mid bass 62 to 125
upper bass 125 to 250
midrange
lower midrange 250 to 500
mid midrange 500 to 1K
upper midrange 1K to 2K
treble
lower treble 2K to 4K
mid treble 4K to 8K
upper treble 8K to 16K (and higher)
So I want to use my Omega's like this. Main driver 70Hz-20K
Omega deep 8- 70-120
Subwoofer 60Hz on down
This would cover the entire audio frequency spectrum and maybe get fulll efficiency out of every component. I essentially want to use the Omega 8 as a mid bass module, sort of like what HSU used to have.
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Yeah, I have done this before. Not with equipment or speakers of this quality but even in my home theater systems, I would have full range towers and would play with the settings in my avr and almost ALWAYS, I preferred them crossed over at some point, compared to running them full range.
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I was considering keeping my Velodyne sub after I got my Omega sub and doing this sort of setup, but I got a good price for the Velodyne and things were getting a bit more complex than I'd like for my dedicated 2ch system.
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My buddy is high passing his Super Alnico Monitors with these Harrison gizmos, placed line level between pre and amp. He tried both the 50Hz and 70Hz, and prefers the 70Hz in his rig.
He says they work like a charm with no detectable sonic degradation. By removing the lows, he can play the SAMs louder with less distortion, greater purity, and a big holographic soundfield. He runs his 2nd preamp output into his Gallo sub to fill in the lower range. Tells me it blends perfectly, with no sub localization.
Says that with this setup, he's getting best sound he's ever had. I haven't personally heard his rig, but he's very experienced with lots of good gear, so I'd tend to believe him.
Nice, I forgot about line level xos. Probably a good solution, but they do depend on the input impedance of the device downstream to determine xo point. Also, if you have a tube preamp with capacitor coupled outputs it's possible to lower the value of the output caps and make it into a 1st order xo.
Removing the lows does all the nice things you say, if you can get it to work out without degradation of the sound quality and get the sub to blend well it's worth it if you like to play at higher SPLs. If you never crank it up past moderate power levels this whole idea might not be worth it.
HiFiJeff, I'd try to bring the xo up to around 150 Hz or so, there's lots of impact at those frequencies the small surface are of the RS5s can't quite convey as well as larger drivers. Handing off to a dedicated sub around 50-60 Hz will also make the 8s play louder and cleaner. End result will be a "single driver" with full frequency response and high SPL abilities. It'll be better than most speakers on the market regardless of price.
mrvco, it's a slippery slope! ;)
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So I want to use my Omega's like this. Main driver 70Hz-20K
Omega deep 8- 70-120
Subwoofer 60Hz on down
This would cover the entire audio frequency spectrum and maybe get fulll efficiency out of every component. I essentially want to use the Omega 8 as a mid bass module, sort of like what HSU used to have.
Ahhhhh....I see the source of my confusion....didn't realize you were talking about built-in subs AND outboard subs.
High pass your main amp (70 Hz) and connect like this:
(1) speaker cable, from main amp to Omega single driver (SD) posts.
(2) jumper cable, from Omega SD posts to Deep 8 plate amp posts. Set plate amp low-pass to approx 120, fine tune by ear.
(3) RCA i/c, from preamp outputs to SUBWOOFER inputs. Set plate amp low-pass to approx 70, fine tune by ear.
If you are successful in obtaining a coherent and natural sounding blend, you should get a clean open relaxed full range sound, that is slightly goosed in the mid-bass.
Just my opinion, but it's a bit complicated / involved for my taste. Just integrating one sub takes some work. If the Deep 8 reaches deep enough and moves sufficient air, I'd probably skip the outboard sub.
I tried a similar setup with my Vaughn floorstanders (extended range driver + ribbon supertweeter + onboard 12 inch powered woofer). LF were already so powerful that adding a pair of Gallo subs brought very little (if anything) to the table. Just not worth the effort / expense. (Also tried it with a single Gallo sub)
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https://books.google.com/books?id=d7ft6F8ZUdcC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=frequency+range+of+typical+instruments
Looking over the graph....
the power region of music isn't sub80Hz
and moving air accurately from 100-500Hz
is not as easy as we assume.
https://www.google.com/search?q=frequency+of+musical+instruments+chart&sa=X&biw=1425&bih=795&tbm=isch&imgil=lLcM8uGqj673QM%253A%253BmF2CVTUYwpbshM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fdjfrobot.blogspot.com%25252F2010%25252F04%25252Feq-frequency-chart-for-instruments.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=lLcM8uGqj673QM%253A%252CmF2CVTUYwpbshM%252C_&usg=__UdFZRCAXaHItJ2Dt5ufS78rMz8M%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiqkK7UwtHQAhVhjVQKHbEDA2YQyjcIMQ&ei=lFE_WKr2C-Ga0gKxh4ywBg#imgrc=iCHS-v-tTqrq3M%3A
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Looking at the photo of the plate amp for the deep 8, another option comes to mind. Louis has speaker level in and out that does high pass. Run your mains' speaker cables to the deep 8, then from the deep 8 to the monitor. Set the crossover on the deep 8 to the frequency of your choosing. That will give you a smoother transition with monitor and built in sub coordinated in frequency and slope. Should be flat at and around the xover point this way and relieve the mains of lower bass duty.
Run separate preamp out to the big subs.
Disadvantage is if this offends your purist approach, assuming you have one that is. You would be adding a crossover at speaker level which is counter to the single driver philosophy. But doesn't cost anything to try and you can see how it sounds. The gain from lowering the mains' workload may outweigh any loss from running through the sub's crossover.
Edit: I just reread mrvco's option one and had missed the high pass filter ahead of all this. That is a better option, IMO. So, an Emily Litella moment for me! :duh:
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...... Louis has speaker level in and out that does high pass. Run your mains' speaker cables to the deep 8, then from the deep 8 to the monitor. Set the crossover on the deep 8 to the frequency of your choosing.
..........
Disadvantage is if this offends your purist approach, assuming you have one that is. You would be adding a crossover at speaker level which is counter to the single driver philosophy. But doesn't cost anything to try and you can see how it sounds. The gain from lowering the mains' workload may outweigh any loss from running through the sub's crossover.
My Gallo sub offers the same exact speaker level high-pass feature.
Using speaker cables, run main amp into sub inputs, then connect Omega to the sub outputs. High-pass to the Omega is fixed at 100Hz. The sub's low-pass can then be adjusted as desired for proper blending.
I had been running Omegas full range, and supplementing LF w/ sub (high level connections). I reasoned that high-passing w/ the sub would muck up signal to mains. After all, more junk would be in the Omega's signal path => a 2nd set of speaker cables, and the sub's high-pass filter.
I tried it and much to my surprise, non-subtle improvements occurred. Even at low listening levels. I guess the sub circuitry is simple and does little signal damage. :dunno:
Or, as you say, if there is any detriment it is outweighed by benefits. Easy and free to try the sub both ways.
A local buddy had also been using a Gallo sub to supplement his Omega run full-range. To not impart bias, I didn't reveal my impressions, but asked him to high-pass as I did. He reported the same improvements I heard, and continues to listen this way.
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After all the conversation and all the suggestions, what I have decided to do is just keep things simple. I went home and did some critical listening and LOVE the way my system sounds as is but it's going to get even better when Louis finishes my dual RS5 driver speakers. And he told me that they are in a completely different league compared to the single RS5 driver. That they will go louder, play more dynamic, and handle complicated music a lot better because of the dual RS5's. I can't wait! Eventually this is going to turn into a surround sound set up and I will kind of separate my critical two channel listening set up from the home theater set up and just use the crossover in the avr for movies and shows and video games and then I have a cd/sacd player going right into my Decware amp for when I want to run them full range. It's a process but I will eventually be where I want.
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My guess is.....
Even though you are doubling up your RS5 driver, if you eliminate subs you are gonna miss them. Just based on my personal experience of listening to a coupla different Omega models both with and without subs, and talking to a few guys that have done the same.....including SAM owners.
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My guess is.....
Even though you are doubling up your RS5 driver, if you eliminate subs you are gonna miss them. Just based on my personal experience of listening to a coupla different Omega models both with and without subs, and talking to a few guys that have done the same.....including SAM owners.
Oh, I am not going without subs! Subs complete any system that has speakers with small drivers. There is only so much a 4.5 inch driver can do. I am just going to add subs later. I actually might use the subs that are in my current Omega's by running a line level from my pre to them until I get some separate subs later.
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I did get a 50 and 70 Hz pair of crossovers from Harrison Labs. Initial impressions of the 50's after very limited listening last night was that the low end sounded a bit weak, but the RTA in the Audio Tools app doesn't reflect that, so I'll do some more listening with and without and see.
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I did get a 50 and 70 Hz pair of crossovers from Harrison Labs. Initial impressions of the 50's after very limited listening last night was that the low end sounded a bit weak, but the RTA in the Audio Tools app doesn't reflect that, so I'll do some more listening with and without and see.
Yeah. Interested in your findings. What speakers are you running again?
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Super 7XRS MK2 w/ a front-firing DeepOmega8.
It seemed to thin out the impact of the lower end just enough to matter. I expect that the volume of my space is too large for a single DeepOmega8 on its own (~20'x22'x8'), but it's definitely more than adequate when used in conjunction with the Super7's running full-range. When I have some time, I'll try again with the DeepOmega crossed over closer to 50Hz.
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Super 7XRS MK2 w/ a front-firing DeepOmega8.
It seemed to thin out the impact of the lower end just enough to matter. I expect that the volume of my space is too large for a single DeepOmega8 on its own (~20'x22'x8'), but it's definitely more than adequate when used in conjunction with the Super7's running full-range. When I have some time, I'll try again with the DeepOmega crossed over closer to 50Hz.
I have 2 subs, and two full systems setup in different rooms. So I've been able to try various sub configurations, with a variety of gear -- including 4 different pair of speakers.
I use Omega 7XRS mk2 in a 10 x 11 room with a single 10" sub. I also have a 2nd system in a 14 x 21 room, with a partial cathedral ceiling -- but still a fair bit smaller than yours. Haven't tried my Omegas in the large room yet -- I typically use large floorstanders (one pair has self powered 12" woofers) to properly load this big space. But with my JM Reynaud Twins (2 way monitors) placed in it I much prefer two subs. One definitely helps, but still too light for my taste.
I realize LF adequacy is very subjective and varies from person to person, but I strongly suspect in a room sized like yours you'd really like what a 2nd sub would add. Not only LF support, but a nicely improved open / spacious / dimensional / layered soundstage. These spatial improvements occur when adding the 2nd sub whether (1) high passing mains and filling bottom w/ subs, or (2) running mains full range and supplementing bottom w/ subs.
I high-pass both pair of small speakers at 100 hz (using the high-pass filter internal to my Gallo sub, everything connected high level), and blend in the sub using its low-pass filter to overlap a bit. Relieving the mains of LF duty allows them to play louder with greater ease and finesse, and less distortion. At all volume levels I hear significant improvements in purity, naturalness and transparency.
I've spoken to two other guys who high-pass their Omegas the same way w/ sub (using 100 Hz and 70 Hz), and they also hear the same non-subtle improvements.
Apart from the change in your LF response, I'm surprised you didn't hear this improvement over the entire range. Maybe using a value greater than 50Hz will free up the Omega driver even more and allow it to play with greater ease / finesse?
PS: From your description, it sounds like your mid bass is too light. Not surprising, given your room size. I'd try raising your sub's crossover point......maybe even as high as 150 - 200. If sub plays cleanly enough that high you should get more muscle and fullness without mucking up the Omega sound.