AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => NuForce => Topic started by: Rocket on 26 Mar 2005, 06:58 am
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Hi Guys,
I went to a hifi dealer today and auditioned a Nuforce Amplifier which is made in the states. Anyway i listened to it for about 2 hours and this amplifier Really is a great sounding piece of equipment.
The dealer stocks bel canto amplifiers and he thinks it sounds a little better than the megabuck monoblocks he sells.
It has many of the attributes of tube amplifiers but still reproduces excellent bass. The soundstage width is outstanding imo and had my foot tapping for over 2 hours. When i listen to other digital amplifiers bel canto and ps audio they don't sound nearly as good as this little amp.
Anyway i'd like to know if anyone else has heard this amplifier and whether they liked it or not?
Regards
Rod
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Rod,this the company (http://www.nuforce.com/index.html) ???[/list:u]
And which model did you hear ? Thanks !! :) [/list:u]I also found this... http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2005/standout_nuforce.shtml[/list:u]
These three-pound, 140W switching amplifiers are said to operate in the analog domain and generate little heat.
[/list:u] Three pounds....no heat... 8)
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Although I don’t see NuForce threatening Tripath or ICEpower any time soon, I hope the company can attract some deep-pocketed manufacturer to license its technology. The Sound Dynamics speakers were pretty good, but they’d never impressed me in my system as they did in the NuForce setup. I can’t help but think that the gentlemen from San Jose, California have created a technology to rival Dr. Tripath’s, and perhaps outperform it. For such a dramatic entrance into high-end audio, NuForce’s little amp deserves a big Jimmy on the mantelpiece
http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20050115.htm [/list:u]
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Hi Chris,
I have already read that comment from soundstage, i think the guy needs to have his ears washed out (he actually contradicts himself in the same quote :nono: ).
The amplifier i heard was the nuforce 70 watter monoblocks which is going to be released shortly and apparently the 140 watt amp is better than the one i heard. I heard this amplifier on the following system;
Bel Canto Cdp
Bel Canto Pre
Nuforce 70 Watt Monoblocks
War Audio Reference 1's (raven 1 ribbon tweeter $200us each, Accuton midrange, Cabasse 8 inch bass driver) these speakers aren't entry level and are Very revealing.
It's a pity i have just purchased a ps audio hca - 2 as the nuforce sounds like a gem and costs a lot less. About $1500au landed in oz :) .
Regards
Rod
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Rocket :
It's a pity i have just purchased a ps audio hca - 2 as the nuforce sounds like a gem and costs a lot less. About $1500au landed in oz ...
[/list:u]Rod, its always best to take you time when selecting new piece's for your system. Explore all options....but...something else is always coming down the road..... :roll: . Why not see if you can borrow the NuForce for a home demo in your system ?[/list:u]
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Every audiophile, even the hard-to-the-core addict, sometimes just wishes for a no-tweak, no-sweat system that just works and sounds great.
In a few years, I imagine my system will have moved to a more refined version of one of these switching amplifiers, maybe with latest-greatest DAC installed internally, maybe even with USB 2.0 input. I'll just hook up my computer up to it with USB, use some decent zip cords to simple speakers and be done.
With what seems to be a tidal wave of these economical digital amps, I think all the music lovers and audiophiles, and even the unknowing masses, will all benefit from more performance for their dollar eventually. There will always be a group of people who will be clutching their SET's, OTL's, modded Dynaco 's, to their deathbed, and I may even be one of them, but I whole-heartedly welcome anything that will make beautiful music at cheaper prices.
I still vividly remember one having to pay $10-20K for a pair of decent-sounding class A monoblocks while the dealer simply rapes your pocketbook. Seems like just yesterday.... Wait, it WAS yesterday :mrgreen:
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A critical piece of information is lacking on the NuForce website. There is no mention of the amplifiers power delivery into loads of less than 8ohms. It would be nice if they would give at least give a 4ohm rating. I would like to see the amplifier double its output into a 4 ohm load. This would be more illustrative of its performance with realworld loudspeakers.
Scotty
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Hi,
It's so hard living in a remote city (1800 miles from adelaide) and wanting to demo hifi products. Most of the hifi dealers in perth sell arcam, creek and the hi end gear is hideously expensive.
Anyway my ps audio amp is sounding a lot better as i replaced 4 caps in the signal path with blackgates. In its unmodified state it sounded very unappealing imo.
For $1500au there is nothing i've heard in perth that sounds as good as the nuforce amps. What i really liked was the low level detail we were hearing as most of the time i have to turn a system up to get it to sound nice. These amps were the 70 watt version and apparently the 100 watt version ($1500us) sound even better.
Anyway i just wanted to let you know about another possible cheaper alternative in amplification :) .
Btw these amps are small and ugly.
Regards
Rod
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A critical piece of information is lacking on the NuForce website. There is no mention of the amplifiers power delivery into loads of less than 8ohms. It would be nice if they would give at least give a 4ohm rating. I would like to see the amplifier double its output into a 4 ohm load. This would be more illustrative of its performance with realworld loudspeakers.
Scotty
This is something I am noticing a lot of and it is wayyy out of proportion to the number of 4 ohm, etc, speakers being sold and used out there. I would fake a guess that perhaps 25% of all speakers (at least) in use are less than 8 ohms, but very very few amps rate their power into 4 ohms. This is like the 6 hot dogs/8 buns stupidness, only more serious.
So should one assume that the 4 ohm specs are ridiculous and therefore not published? Or what?
Re the Soundstage guy contradicting himself... LOL, absolutely true! I guess the editor was on vacation that day, huh?
Soapbox: Is it just me or do you guys feel the standards of many service industries in this country are dropping like a stone? Who is really to blame for this outsourcing mess? Wait till the Chinese, as a society, get proficient in English! We will then be royally screwed. Many people here have no idea how motivated they are and committed to world domination. I am serious.
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kck :
Many people here have no idea how motivated they are and committed to world domination. I am serious.
[/list:u]Guess I better find my chop sticks... :o ( I'm not serious).[/list:u]
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Many people here have no idea how motivated they are and committed to world domination. I am serious.
Well, if by world domination, you mean business, then I agree with you.
If, however, you mean a Binky and the Brain, "Tonight we will plan to take over the world..", then good luck!
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Hi Guys,
This is a short review which my dealer wrote recently and is posted on the nuforce site.
http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/waraudio/waraudio-review.htm
Nuforce is selling some amps on a closeout special for $500us and i thought i'd post it if anyone is interested.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1117605521
Regards
Rod
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Hmm. RMS power is 100 wpc into 8 Ohms and 100 wpc into 4 Ohms as well per their tables even though "peak power" goes up into 4 Ohms.
Usually, this would not be a good sign for conventional amps..
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Maybe someone caught this earlier, but the NuForce is not a digital amp. It's an analog switching amp. For comparison, the Chord amps are analog switching amps too. It simply means that the power supply switches at a frequency higher than the standard 60 Hz.
I'm not saying that the NuForce sounds like the Chord, but it shouldn't sound like the Bel Canto, PS etc., etc. of the so called digital amps.
Disregard this if I'm repeating what someone has already said.
Good listening,
Marty
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Marty,
I'm not sure I follow the distinction that you are making. If I read the Nuforce website and their published patents then it appears that they are selling a true Class D amplifier (with a few twists) which is different from just using a switching power supply.
Is the difference in comparison to something like a Tripath amplifier where they do some additional digital signal processing in addition to being a Class D amp?
Thanks for any more info.
---Gary
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Hi,
I think i read somewhere that it is a class T amplifier.
All i know is that it sounds excellent and i am considering purchasing one at the price they are asking.
Regards
Rod
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Hi,
All i know is that it sounds excellent and i am considering purchasing one at the price they are asking.
Rod
Me too - thanks for the heads up Rocket.
Maybe we should persuade the Nuforce folks to offer some kind of audition to AC :wink:
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Hi GBB:
I checked the website to look into the technology of the amp. The site says that it is not a digital amp, but an analog amp - I took my info directly from the site. The comparison to the Chord was my idea since it too is an analog switching amp. They have no digital parts in them, nor are they PCM - should reduce the potential for noise. For the money, the NuForce looks real sweet.
Good listening,
Marty
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Marty,
You can call me Gary.
If you look at their website (www.nuforce.com) they call it an analog switching amplifier, which I think is a euphemism for a digital amp. Perhaps they think that calling it a digital amp will scare us off.
The parent company of Nuforce is Nphysics (www.nphysics.com) and their website is a little clearer in explaining that their amps do in fact use pulse width modulation (PWM), just like all other digital amps. They have some patented techniques to minimize the digital artifacts and the few reviews on the web seem to indicate they may be on to something.
I was tempted enough to order a pair of their 70W amps. I'll weigh in when they arrive and report back on how they compare to a pair of Flying Mole digital amps that I'm using right now. I've compared the Flying Moles to an untweaked Class T tripath amp (the TEAC A-L700P) and I find the flying mole to be much better.
---Gary
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Hi, I was informed by a user that we're generating some buzz here (and may be everywhere). I will like to thank many users for their feedback and posting. Let me tell you a little about us and also try to answer some of the questions.
We're a new company and have been working on power conversion and amplifier for the past 3 years. Our CTO was the principal architect of the Tomahawk cruise missile power system and he designed many highly reliable power and control systems. Switching amplifier design is primarily a feedback and control and power system problem. So we applied our proprietary modulation scheme and close-loop design to a classic class-D amplifier topology. Just like many other derivative Class D system out there (Class T, etc), the fundamental topology is similar to Class D but you can call it anything you want. It is just marketing.
We like to present technical information as accurate as possible without marketing hype and let our customers speak for us.
We called our amplifier "Analog Switching Amplifier" to differentiate it from other switching amplifiers that use DSP or digital techniques. Our PWM is clockless and in our system, there is no sampling and no decimation error . The modulated signal represents the engery of the input signal. Our system is close-loop in that any error (all amplifiers have error) is being feedback from the speaker terminal and corrected at every cycle. Phase shift is another problem for most amplifiers, but not ours.
Some of the quesitons were posted before we updated our website. So, please check www.nuforce.com frequently for new FAQ, technical information, products, reviews or dealers.
There is a good FAQ on Power rating. This is one of the most confusing area (especially due to a lot of marketing hype and manipulatoin with spec). RMS power is the maxmium continuous power you can derive from the power supply. Therefore regardless of the output load, it is the same. We have published power rating for 4 ohm (we can put up the numbers for 2 ohm but it is just a multiplication). Our amplifier can drive just about any output load (within the limitation of the power supply).
Jason
President, NuForce
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Jason,it is considered a virtue if an amplifier can behave like a voltage source. If the amplifier will deliver a constant voltage into a load regardless of the loads impedance. For example,if the amplifier will deliver 100watts RMS into 8ohms,200 wattsRMS into 4ohms,and 400watts RMS into 2ohms, it can be said to behave like near perfect voltage source into real world loads which can show dynamic impedances even lower than 2ohms. This ability is a good indication of how robustly the power supply is designed and gives the amplifier the ability to better deal with the loudspeakers it may be matched with. The fact that your amplifiers do not have this characteristic is something to be noted when comparing your product to that of your competion. Welcome to AC, I look forward to your presence in the forums.
Scotty
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The amp is designed to be an ideal voltage source, and unlike Tripath, we are impervious to speaker load (explain more later). While we can argue about the doubling of power when impedance drops to 2-ohm, we are still talking about measurement using a big load resistor and compare raw voltages. Much like comparing Horsepower without the right context (a 500HP Caterpillar may not run like a 100HP Honda Civic).
For example, without a constant switching frequency and a robust closed-loop response, the Tripath technology will have variable conditions at different frequencies, plus the interaction of impedance at different frequencies, thus resulted in a bit of mess (The Q is all over the place). In NuForce design, the closed-loop response makes sure that at the end of every cycle, the net error is nulled out at a speed of 1Mhz, practically nulls the variance at the speaker terminal, so we behaves closer to ideal voltage source at much higher frequency without running into instability. In conventional Class-D design, you'll notice that many of them open-loop, and have severe phase shift so it has to be strongly filtered at 20Khz to prevent instability.
For more detail, please examine the comparison between various technologies posted in nuforce.com
In the raw power department, we simply put in an off-the-shelf SMPS that is current limited to 100W. So regardless of 8, 4 or 2 ohm, the SMPS will supply 100W of current juice before the current limit kicks in and shuts down the supply. But during the instantaneous peak, we can swing a doubling of power when the speaker impedance halves. If we have a limitless power supply obviously, we can doubling up the power all the way (up to 1152W@2 ohm peak). In fact, one of our OEM application we are driving a pure capacitive load (which is why NuForce amp works exceptionally well with ribbon, and ESL). With our reference speaker, we have been playing music without clipping, with peaks of 300W+ from the 100W amp.
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Maybe we should persuade the Nuforce folks to offer some kind of audition to AC :wink:
Good point Jerry....best way to hear what it can do in your system...and also get a few reviews !!! :hyper:
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Ok ok, if there's enough requests, we can send a pair out for you guys/gals to pass it around. Those who want to audition it please email to NuFoce (go to "Contact/Sales" on www.nuforce.com and click on the "email us") with email subject title "Audition". You need to promise to write a review with photo. There will be a lot more reviews coming soon.
Note that NuForce amp is very sensitive (those reviews you saw on our website are 100% honest reviews from our customers, we didn't influence them) and it will pick up any flaws in your system. In our listening lab, the souce comes from a CD player upsampling to 192Khz by Apogee DAC and directly into our amp.
Here's how the US only audion deal works:
(sorry, no international audition, too much trouble)
You send us your request with name, address and phone number. Indicate how you want to pay for shipping (typically $10 to $15 via 3 days FedEx for US): Paypal or Visa/Mastercard
We'll send you a 70Wrms Ref 8. 70Wrms version will not be produced after we clear out the handful of units in our inventory, 100Wrms has been sold out until April 15.
You'll receive an invoice with online payment link. Make sure your billing address and shipping address match.
We will ship you a pair for audition after you pay for shipping. You have to send it back within 2 weeks after receiving the amps (ie, you have 1 1/2 week to audition and then send it back)
This is a first come first serve. The first person who email us will get to audion first. Second person will have to wait and so on.
If you don't send it back after we reminded you, you will be charged for the full retail price minus 15%.
NOTE: we won't sell you the amps if you live near a dealer.
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Hi,
That is a great idea lonewolf and an excellent offer from jason. Luckily i live close to the oz dealer and can have a listen to it in my system if i need to.
I need to point out that i have nothing to gain from my initial post but have provided this information because i was pretty amazed at how good the amplifier sounded. After all if we can save a few dollars and get a great sounding amplifier all the better.
Regards
Rocket
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Hi,
That is a great idea lonewolf and an excellent offer from jason.
Rod,[/list:u]Give credit where credit is due....audiojerry brought it up first. But we have had many home audition tours running at AC. And the companies get some good feedback with our take on their product. So its a win - win for all.[/list:u]Thanks Jason for your offer....sounds good. :thumb: [/list:u]Chris[/list:u]Ohhh, Jason....what if you don't have a camera ? :? [/list:u]
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>What if you don't have a digital camera ?
Oh man, you people. If you don't have a digital camera, skip the photo for the review.
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I must commend Jason for having so much faith in his product that he is willing to offer a review sample without hesitation. :beer:
Chris and Rod, you guys are great facilitators. :D
I'm not sure if I got my request for an audition in on time. I wasn't able to access the Nuforce email server.
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Hi, I was informed by a user that we're generating some buzz here (and may be everywhere). I will like to thank many users for their feedback and posting. Let me tell you a little about us and also try to answer some of the questions.
We're a new company and have been working on power conversion and amplifier for the past 3 years. Our CTO was the principal architect of the Tomahawk cruise missile power system and he designed many highly reliable power and control systems. Switching amplifier design is ...
Wow! Ok, gotta ask this, but are you guys gonna build a stereo version, having two monos in one box, thus saving some money in the case design?
Ray
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We don't plan to introduce stereo amp in the foreseeable future. We plan to introduce 350Wrms amp (mono), preamp, and a few other supercool stuff that we can't disclose at this point. Every product that we introduce will outperform just about everything in its category at a fraction of the price. If we can't do that, it is not worth doing it. For example, we plan to introduce a 1000W to 2000W AC Regenerator weighing less than 5 lbs based on our patented Class-N circuit in 2006.
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We don't plan to introduce stereo amp in the foreseeable future. We plan to introduce 350Wrms amp (mono), preamp, and a few other supercool stuff that we can't disclose at this point. Every product that we introduce will outperform just about everything in its category at a fraction of the price. If we can't do that, it is not worth doing it. For example, we plan to introduce a 1000W to 2000W AC Regenerator weighing less than 5 lbs based on our patented Class-N circuit in 2006.
Hi, What is this "AC Regenerator" and just my opinion, it's be nice to have a stereo box of the 70W version. You already have the R&D done. Sell it for a grand, and I don't think you could keep them in stock, especially when word gets out on the sound. Are you guys gonna put together an integrated? Sure Hope so.
Ray
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That's a very enticing trial offer from Jason. I can't help but think the amps' very low weight and small size facilitates shipping them around. Couldn't do that with Levinson or Krell.
I don't have time to audition or I would...have my own company to run, and I know Jason will sympathize with that. But I'm extremely interested in anyone here testing these out with either Vandersteen 2's and 3's, or VMPS RM40's (a recent discovery I'm considering), both with music and HT work.
At $1500 or so a pair, biamping is a no-brainer. Good thing from my point of view. :wink:
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i sent a reply, i'd be happy to do an eval. I think I am to a point where i can actually give a fair eval.
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We plan to introduce 350Wrms amp (mono), preamp, and a few other supercool stuff that we can't disclose at this point. Every product that we introduce will outperform just about everything in its category at a fraction of the price...
That is the dream for budget concious audiophiles. Some of us just can't afford 10k amplifiers so it is exciting when a product comes along that claims to offer the high end performace for only a few k.
Jason you said you put in an off the shelf SMPS. No tweaks or specific audiophile type design? just a standard part?
How much do you think the 350w mono's will be when they come out? Also with this amp design do you feel that the higher rated 350w will have superior sound quality or is it just a matter of more power to drive less efficient speakers?
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We think that NuForce Ref 8 is close to perfection, but there is still some room for improvement. A lot of good amps out there have some minor imperfections (less gain in the high freq for example), and that resulted in having a boost in other freq range (stronger bass for example). NuForce amp is very pure. And after a very short while, you'll begin to appreciate the true reproduction of the signal. Ok, I don't like to brag. As we collect more reviews, we'll let you know. I am sure you're hear from the first person who audition the amp next week.
So where can we improve ?
1. Let user select whether they like a tube-like characteristic or the original pure and perfect amp
2. Continue to reduce distortion and noise. There's only so much to do there and beyond a certain point, it is not noticeable by any human ear.
3. NuForce amp is a true close-loop system and it takes the feedback from the speaker terminal to zero out the error at every cycle. The next level of improvement could be to sense any distortion from sound in the room and feed it back into the modulator. Nobody has ever done that. That will be a huge breakthrough in audio engineering. Ok, we're not going to be able to do that anytime soon :). May be 2006 or 2007. May be it can never be done.
As for 2005, the 350W version will be more expensive, may be around $1400 per unit versus $800 for the 100W RMS. It will be the same as the current Ref 8 (if we can make any improvement, we will). Actually, Ref 8 circuit board is designed (and has been tested) for 300W. 100Wrms is more than enough for most speakers. Keep in mind that Ref 8 has peak of 288W and avg per cycle power of 144W for 8 ohm load. Read the power faq. There is no switching power supply on the market that can deliver 60V for audio purpose (telecom switching power supply is too costly). Therefore we designed our own and that explain the delay in introducing Ref 9. Ref 9 will also include both RCA and XLR and have a very nice chassis.
Perhaps instead of using multiple Ref 8 for bi-amp or tri-amp setup, you can use a single 350W Ref 9 for that. Or you might need Ref 9 for some really hard to drive speakers.
We think monoblock offers the most flexibility. You can try the 100W versoin initially. And buy more monoblocks for bi-amping. Or use the 100W for surround channels and upgrade to 350W for main speakers.
If one fails after a few years, you only need to buy another monoblock (from NuForce offcourse :)).
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Tell us a bit about the preamp that you have coming.
I notice that you say in your development you are running the cd input directly into the amps, but I have always found a good preamp will bring something more musically to the sound
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The reason we're not using a preamp in our current test system is because we can't find a reasonably priced preamp that will not distort the sound. Well, we have different purpose for our system. It is used to do listening test (we do measurement at the lab too) and we find that the Apogee miniDAC is slightly better than a good preamp.
Preamp is what it is. The goal is to have as little distortion as possible. We don't know how well NuForce preamp is going to be. It is not completed yet. Price wise, we're looking at about $1600 retail (with remote control) and release date is estimated around September. It it doesn't meet our standard, we won't release it.
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Jason,
Thanks for offering a home audition to AC members, I am signing up!
Audiojerry & Lonelywolf,
Thanks for encouraging the the home audition!
NB
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Try looking into any of the transformer based volume control/ preamps. Bent Audio and several others have them. They are relatively inexpensive; most people who hear them find them preferable to other preamp methodologies....
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What is the input impedance of your NuForce Reference 8?
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Input impedance is 47K.
Gain is about 21db. The gain is a little lower than other amp to allow preamp to operate at its optimal and higher volume level.
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The reason we're not using a preamp in our current test system is because we can't find a reasonably priced preamp that will not distort the sound. Well, we have different purpose for our system. It is used to do listening test (we do measurement at the lab too) and we find that the Apogee miniDAC is slightly better than a good preamp.
Preamp is what it is. The goal is to have as little distortion as possible. We don't know how well NuForce preamp is going to be. It is not completed yet. Price wise, we're ...
i would investigate the dodd audio or modwright preamps. (modwright has a forum here, & dodd audio posts under the commercial circle.) if i were in the market, these would be at the top of my list. as i am totally happy w/my modded-to-the-max melos music director, i am not in the market. unfortunately melos no longer makes new gear.
doug s.
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I have just purchased the reference 8 from the Perth, Australia dealer after listening to it for about an hr vs the best bel canto.
This amp easily floors it - should sound even better when i get my reference 1 speakers this week :-)
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Hi Werticus,
Are your reference 1's white? What preamp are you using at the moment. The only negative comment i can make about the amplifier is that it is relatively low gain (21db) and i don't think it will work in my system.
It sure sounded good.
Regards
Rod
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yes they are but they are not the ones you have seen sitting in war (they were for someone else)... they are the ones that will be sitting in war this week :)
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Dear all:
Any thoughts or comments about the NuForce amps vs. the CI Audio VMB-1s or D-100s or the Bolder or Red Wine Audio modified Teacs. :?:
The NuForce sounds great... it is at a similar price point as the CI Audio gear... It is more expensive than the modified Teacs. How does the sound compare?
I would like to audition all the gear, but I don't have the time, the kit is not available, and I don't have the money... So, I need to ask my fellow AC readers for help!
At the $1000 price point, which has the best sound: the 70 wpc NuForce amps or the VMB-1s?
And, again, at the ~$1500 price point, which has the best sound: the 100 wpc NuForce amps or the D-100s?
Sub $1000 -- how close to the VMB-1s, D-100s, etc. can you get with the modified Teacs?
Or is it more a case of not "better" but different sound? :idea:
Thanks.
Scott.
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to me this amp is just a whole new level of sound
http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/waraudio/waraudio-review.htm
....
get a listen!
though i havnt heard the amps your talking about.
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And, again, at the ~$1500 price point, which has the best sound: the 100 wpc NuForce amps or the D-100s?
Being these are both new products, I doubt you'll find anyone who's heard both side by side. It sounds like both use a similar design in that both are self oscillating and do their sensing directly at the speaker output. It seems the main difference is that the D-100 uses a big linear power supply and the NuForce uses a switching supply.
This tells you nothing about what either one sounds like. My suggestion, get them both and send back the ones you like least.
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Hi,
Dusty's advise is spot on as the only know is to have a listen to it in your own system.
Don't trust what we audiophiles recommend use your own ears and remember we all like a particular sound. As an example i bought a ps audio hca - 2 after reading glowing reviews from the professional media and audiophiles. In its stock form it sounded very unappealing and i had to modify it to get it to sound decent.
Regards
Rod
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We have not listened to the CI D-100, so the following comments are strictly technical based on our understanding. But we believe our performance is right up there beyond the modest price point. However, as with any audio purchase, listen for yourself, work with your dealer to arrange for an audition.
1) SMPS vs. linear power supply. With a total weight of 3-lb, NuForce Ref8's standby power consumption is only 6W, less than a DVD player, and it can continuously deliver 100W of current at 70% efficiency (SMPS is 85% efficient, NuForce amplifier circuit is 80% efficient). NuForce uses extremely high-grade SMPS, which provides a fully regulated output stage (as far as we know, only 'super expensive' amplifier offers regulated output stage), the SMPS is rated 300,000 hours of MTBF at full load of 100W, and can provide instantaneous 'kick' of 1000W burst. The SMPS power supply has power factor correction that aligns the phase of voltage vs. current, then it charges up to 400V before regulating it down to 48V, and this SMPS topology addresses instantaneous power demand very well.
Linear supply does not regulate the output stage but instead it uses big capacitors as filtering and reservoir). On the other hand, linear power supply could be quieter, as they do not have switching noise. It's a trade off.
2) Tripath and Ice power Class-D amplifiers are band-limited to 20Khz upper bound. NuForce has power bandwidth from 10- 100Khz, technology used in D-100 is capable of 70Khz b/w. Higher b/w means lower phase shift at listening frequencies. Lower phase typically has better imaging.
3) CI D-100 uses a half-bridge (2 MOSFET) output stage, NuForce uses a full-bridge (4 MOSFET, 2 pairs) output stage. A matter of design priorities and goal-settings. Benefits of half bridge is cost, at the expense of using a bipolar supply and adjustment for offset. Full-bridge by its nature cancels out any DC offset, and can be used with a single supply. At very low frequency and at extreme high power output, half-bridge output stage may suffer from 'pumping' effect.
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Hi Jason,
Can the gain of the amplifier be modded to have a higher gain? 21db won't do it for me in my system as my preamp doesn't seem to be high gain.
I am also using a perpetual technologies p1a which lowers the music by 6db which is compounding the low gain from the preamp.
Regards
Rocket
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.... Lower phase typically has better imaging. ....
Oh yeah thats one feature of the amp that totally blew me away.
the other stand out characteristics of this amp:
How fast it is - drums really hit you with such a punch I thought you needed larger woofers to do this! Definatly feel the rather large peak power of this amp, but not only power but control
separation... i think due to no x over, the bass line and the treble are more separate than ever before. :) and there are just layers and layers
very
REAL sounding amp ! (mines still burning in)
make sure you have the money on you when you l isten because your going to need one when you do hear it - so far its taken pat 2 days to sell 6 pairs :) (thats a lot for perth)
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WerTicus,
home made 250w rsm a channel stereo amp x2
[/list:u]This was in your system listing....was this the last amp you owned ? (before the NuForce)[/list:u]Thanks for your comments on the NuForce.[/list:u]
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yeah i sold that amp to a friend and now run the nuforce.
that amp was just junk though vs the really high end gear - a lot of power but not very clean, and quite slow, its been compared favourably to the aska though ehehehhehe :)
i have updated my profile... i have NEW EVERYTHING, including house :P
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Hi Werticus,
I'm glad to hear that you like your new amplifier, apparently it takes about 50 hours of burn in.
I saw a pair of white reference 1 speaker cabinets at pat's shop a couple of weeks ago. Were those yours? Or did you build your own cabinets?
I am in two minds whether to buy the nuforce amplifier.
Firstly, i have recently bought a ps audio amplifier and have modded it. It sounds quite good in my system and i don't feel like taking another Major loss.
Secondly, the gain of the nuforce amps is only 21db and probably won't be a good match in my system. If the gain could be increased i would be interested in buying one.
I was there when the aksa was auditioned, unfortunately it was only played for 10 - 15 minutes and wasn't properly warmed up. The aksa is still a good sounding amplifier and great for diy.
What source and preamp are you using?
Regards
Rod
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We have not listened to the CI D-100, so the following comments are strictly technical based on our understanding. But we believe our performance is right up there beyond the modest price point. However, as with any audio purchase, listen for yourself, work with your dealer to arrange for an audition.
1) SMPS vs. linear power supply. With a total weight of 3-lb, NuForce Ref8's standby power consumption is only 6W, less than a DVD player, and it can continuously deliver 100W of current at 70% efficie ...
I like the idea of Jason (Nuforce) stating his views of his product vs. comparables. AC is a great venue for this, because it encourages open exchange of ideas, and some give and take.
But, please, :nono: this time let's keep the discussion civil, congenial, and non-personal. We know from past experience what can happen. :oops:
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my speaker cabs are white also - but with mica flecks in the paint (think 'metalic' car paint' they are still being sprayed atm and will probably be in pats shop this week finished i hope! but over all they will look similar to the other white boxes you saw.
i think you should stick to your guns rod, see how these amps you just got pan out at first before jumping ship yet again - i think your a little too impulsive ;-)
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What will be the gain on the upcoming Nuforce 350 Watt Monos?
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Can the gain of the amplifier be modded to have a higher gain? 21db won't do it for me in my system as my preamp doesn't seem to be high gain.
The current shipping unit has a gain of 23dB, so it's 3dB less than the so called '26dB standard'. For new production, we can easily change the gain to 26dB. The next shipment to Australia will be modified to 26dB.
Using active preamp and running it 3dB louder easily compensate for the 3dB lesser gain on NuForce, and as a result, the THD+N will improve 3dB as well.
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We published the wrong informatoin about the gain on our website (blame the management, ie me)
Those amps that were shipped to Australia have 26 db.
A few amps that we produce this month have 23 db (not 21 as posted).
Going forward, we're going to stick to 26 db. It is a simple change.
For those of you who have already bought the amps, please submit your review (with photo will be better) to salesteam@nuforce.com with subject title "review". We'll give you discount for future purchase (through your dealer), or free gift (like t-shirt, accessories or whatever :)).
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Thanks for the clarification regarding the gain setting of your amplifier. From what i have heard from werticus these amps are selling well in oz.
Werticus,
I wouldn't say that i am impulsive but I have had a bad run with amplifiers. I spent $2500au on my n.e.w. dc - 66 amplifier and it was a bad really bad investment. I had my aksa amplifier for over 2 years and really enjoyed it but i was ready to move on and try something different. It is a pity about the timing of the nuforce amplifiers as i only just purchased my amp in february.
The rest of my system is settled. speakers 5 years, preamp 4 years and dac is 3 years old.
Btw who built your speakers?
Regards
Rocket
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Yap, we can't make them fast enough and have to go into allocations for dealers. New dealers who order 1 pair and existing dealers gets the priority. If you're end user and you don't have a dealer in your area, you might want to consider placing an order now for end of April or May shipment. We won't sell to users in the area where there is a dealer.
Jason
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nuforce: T-shirt!, sweet mate. one review coming up...
I'm afraid I'll have to be totally honest in it I wont lie for you! No matter how many Tshirts are on offer :)
rod:
glad to hear you have most of it sorted out - why dont you borrow a pair of nuforces from pat for a while - he would let you for a week or so and then you would know or not if your happy with what you have :)
i hate to see ya suffer :( and it would be even worse if you switched over and felt you made a mistake.
also im surprised the NEW you didnt like - because i tried the 10w version and it sounded wonderful, just needed more power.
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Jason, is your digital amp similar in technology to what these guys are doing? www.mueta.com
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I have never heard about their amp. I don't know if they're shipping any product or just a technology provider. Similar to switching power supplies, there are many topologies for switching amplifiers. Many companies have patterns and designs out there. Each modulation techniques or feedback & control system could be slightly different.
But actually come up with a good implementation that sounded very good is a different ball game. Our CTO got his first pattern granted in 2002. We have subsequent refinement and pending patterns in US and EU. It took us almost an entire year to go from 1st working prototype to the current shipping product.
Class D amplifier technology is quite common out there, just look at how many Class D ICs on the market. But going from IC with good THD spec to a high power system that sounded good requires different skills. Therefore you don't see that many good sounding (audiophile standard) switching amp on the market. We expect more of these systems to be available in 2006 as people begin to recognize the advantages and acknowledge that switching amp can indeed sounds as good as linear or tube amp (or even better).
Jason
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Could you provide us with a graph showing THD+N vs. Output Power of any Nuforce Amp. Thanks
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We're waiting for more compresensive plot of the amp (with the power supply), should be available next week. Here's a typical plot at 1Khz, which is not comprehensive enough:
http://www.nuforce.com/picts/nuforce_thd_vs_power_1khz.jpg
Here's freq response:
http://www.nuforce.com/picts/nuforce_freq_100khz.jpg
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Jason:
Can you also provide distortion vs. noise graphs of the individual harmonic components at various frequencies? For example, the level of 2nd order through 9th order harmonic distortion (in dB) at 50Hz, 1kHz, and 20kHz.
I'm specifically interested in the relation of upper-order harmonics to low-order, particularly at high frequencies, since this is where the several class D amps I've auditioned have disappointed me.
Thanks!
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I will have photos up soon, and impressions up next week. Will probably start a new post.
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My audition units arrived today, and I'm in the process of burning them in. I checked to make sure everything was working properly but I did sneak in a brief listen. Very quiet, and I must admit I am impressed by how pristine and clean it sounds right out of the box. No nasties, no harshness, very easy on the nerves.
I can't get over how tiny these monoblocs are!
Stay tuned for more.
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Jason:
Can you also provide distortion vs. noise graphs of the individual harmonic components at various frequencies? For example, the level of 2nd order through 9th order harmonic distortion (in dB) at 50Hz, 1kHz, and 20kHz.
I'm specifically interested in the relation of upper-order harmonics to low-order, particularly at high frequencies, since this is where the several class D amps I've auditioned have disappointed me.
Thanks!
Yes, Jason... we need to see every conceivable graph, chart, and analysis of your gear possible so we can know whether it will sound good. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'll need the schematics, hook-up wire, and type of solder as well. I've been dissapointed when people used anything other than 14% copper content certified solder and Ultralitz-knotbraid cabling... ;)
-C
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Jason:
Can you also provide distortion vs. noise graphs of the individual harmonic components at various frequencies? For example, the level of 2nd order through 9th order harmonic distortion (in dB) at 50Hz, 1kHz, and 20kHz.
I'm specifically interested in the relation of upper-order harmonics to low-order, particularly at high frequencies, since this is where the several class D amps I've auditioned have disappointed me.
!
You ought to be dissappointed. All current Class-D measurements are conducted with a brick-wall filter cutting off >20Khz information. Needless to say, you'll get pristine -100dB plots and perfect 0.001% measurement at 1Khz. The modulating frequency will cause trouble to the distortion analyzer, read white paper in Audio Precision web site.
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I will add to what my colleague just posted. Our measurement should look pretty good, as we have done on earlier PCB. One of the challenge in measuring switching amplifier (see http://www.audioprecision.com/index.php?page=resources&id=1000000162) is how to seperate the very low level modulating frequency from noise and distortion. This is especially hard when an amplifier such as NuForce has 100Khz of bandwidth. User after user have found that this amplifier provide a wide sound stage among other benefits. We believe it is the effect of the wide bandwidth that allows hunman ear to distinguish the position of the sound. You can try this experiment if you have an AP equipment. As you move up the cut off frequency, the THD+n goes up proportionally. What it tells you is that the measuring equipment is being confused by the modulating frequency and think that it is noise. Publishing only 1Khz plot is a joke. But that's the best number everyone is able to get. We will show THD vs Freq plot and also THD vs power plot AT DIFFERENT FREQ.
You will also find almost all vendors use AES17 filter set at 22khz cut off. The effect of doing that is to practically drop the THD+N of anything > 10Khz. Meaurement result can be manipulated and presented in the best light.
For all those skeptics out there, I would say read up on the tech notes at Audio Precision website (so that you can tell if the vendor is hiding something), interpret the plots yourself, don't believe in marketing BS that claims 0.0x% THD at 1Khz. Or 0.0x% at 300W. Come on, as the power goes up, noise becomes less of a component of the output voltage.
You will hear what Jerry has to say. He is the first guy who recieved the amp in audition. We just posted a review from a user on the website. He is not a dealer. Listen for yourself. What we wrote on our website (home page, FAQ etc) are not marketing BS. Well, it certainly sound like it when you first read it. How can all that be true.
Well, we let our customers speak for us. It is time to throw away the misconception that a top performing amp has to cost a lot of money. Some people will say, hey, the amp is so small and light, there's nothing here. But wait a minute, look closely. What do you see in a linear amp that weighed 100 lbs ? Most of the space are filled up by big transformer. NuForce amp has more components than any linear amp. And it is not digital. If you compare all the reviews, you will find something unusual. They're all pretty much saying the same thing. We're still pretty shocked by what people have been telling us. If we have to write the reviews ourselves, we don't even dare to write it that way, even if we're a little drunk :).
Ok, lets see what Jerry has to say. Who knows, he might be the first one to say we suck. By the way, if you can read Italian, Dutch or Swedish, go read what those customers have to say on the internet. We have an Italian customer who started posting all over in Italy 2 days after receiving the amp.
Jason
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nu force is where it is at ladies - I didnt even bother to look at any specs after hearing the thing for 2 hrs I bought one.
Your own ears will not lie - full review next week from me - the break in is about half way!
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Fresh out of the box, the Nuforce sounded surprisingly good.
Four hours into burn-in, I snuck another listen. It didn't sound so good then. I've had this experience with other components during burn-in - especially interconnects and cd players. They start out good, then go into some kind of funk for awhile, and later emerge into the butterfly (bad metaphor). Another strange thing - at low volume the Nuforce sounded anemic with weak bass, but when I cranked it up, things improved significantly.
Nuforce, are you aware of this phenomenon?
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Jerry,
Read the WAR audio review on the nuforce web site. They experienced the same issue.
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Thanks for the diatribe on measurement difficulty Nuforce. That probably accounts for the class A rating of the PSA HCA-2 by Stereophile, despite the rapid rise (and spike) in distortion over 20kHz... Their measurements may not have given an accurate assessment of its performance. I think the class A rating resulted more from their subjective opinions...
Having said that, John Atkinson's harmonic spectrum component of his technical reviews can tell one a lot about what the amp may sound like, hence my request above for your spectrum of harmonic components. Do you have these specs, or do you not really use them in voicing your product?
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Oh, I know what happen to your low volume problem. A batch of units that first came out of this production (not those that went to Australia) have the gain set to 23db (oops). I think the unit was sent to Jerry before we caught the problem and fixed it. When you send it back to us after the audion, we'll fix in for the next person in line.
Jason
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yeah my pair went through a 'bad' phase...I actually checked all the connections it was so wrong....
found nothing wrong, left them on all night and the next morning they were great. At 15 - 20 hrs now and they sound perfect IMO, but then again slightly better than last time i listened :) Looking forward to further break in!
One happy camper here people. Today i decided to see how loud i could push them - and they went well into 'im going to go deaf' territory on my 89db speakers, with absolute and perfect clarity.
and when you do push it so far she clips in a very gentle sort of way... its interesting :) But you can reallllly appreciate the low distortion at high power these amps are capable of!
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Jerry and Werticus,
What speakers are the Nuforce amps driving? I did a search for "speakers" on both of you but couldn't find where you referred to your system layout.
thx,
Ted
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If I missed these answers somewhere in this 8 page thread, my apologies! :)
1) From the pictures, it appears that the Ref 8 amps have ventilation holes on the upper surface. Would stacking these amps on top of each other create enough blockage to cause heat buildup problems?
2) Does the amp enclosure have damping material already applied?
3) Does the price for the Ref 8 include a power cord of some kind? I know that a separate "NuForce/Stealth Power Cable" is available, but it wasn't clear to me if some more basic power cord was included with the amp, to which the Stealth was a potential upgrade.
(Power cord arguments aside, I just can't make myself believe that the R&D and labor/materials costs involved in designing and producing the Stealth power cord vs. the Ref 8 amps themselves are proportional to their respective prices of $480 and $800. Yes, I know, different market forces probably apply, but still...)
Thanks for any feedback!
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1) From the pictures, it appears that the Ref 8 amps have ventilation holes on the upper surface. Would stacking these amps on top of each other create enough blockage to cause heat buildup problems?
Stacking them for normal use is perfectly fine, make sure there will be air circulation. An extreme case such as running the amps 100W all day, at 70% efficiency (85% SMPS x 80% Amp), you'll be dissipating 30W of heat, and typically, the temperature goes up about 1-degree-C/W. That's like 30-degree-C over ambient (room temperature). The 30-degree-C of extra heat will compound the other amp and then the ambient temperature will go up in proportion. Just make sure that the air aorund the 2 amps is circulated.
On the other hand, playing music at normal listening level, you'll be running it at 10-15W, we are then talking about 5-W of heat, nothing to be worried about.
2) Does the amp enclosure have damping material already applied?
Even though we have real science, we also pay attention to get the amp sounding right. Damping material may distract rather than improve Ref8. If you're really into improving the last bit of performance, put them on some energy dissipating shelf/feet, such as carbon graphite blocks, Aurios, cones. [/quote]
3) Does the price for the Ref 8 include a power cord of some kind? I know that a separate "NuForce/Stealth Power Cable" is available, but it wasn't clear to me ...
We do include and provide power cords for USA customers. International distributors can provide the correct cords suitable for each countries' AC system.
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The system I heard the demo pair on was WAR audio's reference one speakers... which are in the photo on nuforces website... you can see the raven tweeter, cabasse woofer and ceramic accuton mid. 45litres, 89db rear ported base reflex good from 35 to 100khz.
with all the rest of the system as listed.
At home I have a raven tweeter in an mtm with some vifa 6.5"s cant believe the bass I am getting out of these things!
next week my reference ones should be finished - speakers of this level cost 40k+ in the usa and europe here Pat sells them for 8k. They have been compared to and come out on top of many big names, that are costing even more than that. I have personally put them up against the linkwitz Orions and they were not even close.
As far as heat is concerned: I have run the nuforce 8's at 'just below' clipping level for hours on end, they get 'a little warm' maybe 50 degrees and I have them stacked also!
Came with no power cord - i wonder if such an efficient power using amp would benifit all that much. But intend on testing :)
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Came with no power cord - i wonder if such an efficient power using amp would benifit all that much. But intend on testing ...
Hahaha!!! Yep. . . it's SO efficient it just pulls power from the air. :lol:
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Thank you for the response!
2) Does the amp enclosure have damping material already applied?
Even though we have real science, we also pay attention to get the amp sounding right. Damping material may distract rather than improve Ref8.
I may be mis-interpreting your comment, but your statement that "even though we have real science" seems to imply that you don't believe resonance control to be of scientifically proven importance, but rather an unvalidated "tweak". My understanding is that capacitors, at least, may be subject to vibration induced microphonic resonance. Indeed, even the NuForce website states that the "chassis is completely made of high grade brush and anodized aluminum to reduce audio resonance."
By no means do I believe that we are talking about a first order effect here, and I certainly don't mean to imply that there is some lack in an amp design I have yet to hear (but would like to). I simply found your statement interesting, and hoped for some clarification. Additional comments would be welcome, as well as any elaboration on whether damping material "may," or may not, "improve [the] Ref8"?
Thank you!
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My colleague might have gotten us into a topic (damping material on the case) that we don't know how to address. So we should not attempt. We haven't done any study, whether it is listening test or some scientific measurement for that matter. If we don't have anything to say, better shut up then trying to bullshit or pretend that we know better than someone else out there.
Jason
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i have always found dampning to help.
with any application - these amps still sound better with nothing to dampen them - i have them right in the line of fire of the speakers too at the moment.
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This is a self oscillating and switching amp. They are inherantly 'violent', with the 4 MOSFETs switching at 500,000 times/second. However, the front end buffer still need to do -100dB to have THD<0.0x%.
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Can you recommend a preamp that will work nicely with these for under $1000.00?
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I had a look inside the box and i thought the speaker terminal 'wire' was interesting... any science behind these silver ribbons? they sure look cool :)
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The silver wire sounded the best. We can't give away all our secret source :). Even the power wire is special.
We'll introduce a preamp later this year. We can't find any sub $2000 preamp that can match the performance of our amp. We think this new preamp should compete well with anything within 3X its price range. Will like to hear what others have to say. It is our mission to bring super high end audio performance to premium consumer price. To fulfill our mission, we might have to keep expanding our product line :).
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Given that the ref8 is a switching amp, would it be sending hash back into the power supply?
I read that was the reason why linear power supplies are preferred for audio applications.
Thanks.
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Ths is a short update on the status of my audition of the Nuforce, which arrived on Thursday.
The amps are still breaking in and are changing dramatically. Unfortunately, I lost 36 hours of burn-in time when my transport stopped playing after one cycle instead of continuously playing on the repeat cycle while I was gone. arrgh!
As a result, they have about 30 hours of total burn-in. I'm not ready to pass judgement, but at this point I'd have to say that the Nuforce deserves serious consideration by anyone paying attention to this thread.
I'm still trying to get a handle on its sonic signature, but I'm impressed by a number of attributes. That alone says alot when you consider that my reference is a 10k Audio Research tube amp. It has no trouble driving my Dynaudio Special 25's or Dali Euphonia MS4's.
I'd like to get some second opinions from fellow AC members living in the area like Earlmarc and Spectralman, who both own the EAD Carver, which also has impressed me.
Or anyone else who'd like to come and check this Nuforce out.
If Nuforce is reading this, can you let me know when you want me to ship this back, or if you want me to ship it to the next person on the audition list? I hope I have until next weekend at least.
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I am glad Jerry likes it. Sure, keep it a little longer if you like.
Keep in mind that Jerry is auditioning the 70W version. The 100W amp has a lot more continuous power. Both amp has the same 288W peak and 144W average cycle power into 8 ohm. In response to the previous posting, it is not true that switching amp can't out perform linear or tube amp. Our amp is unlike other switching amp. Read the technology and FAQ sections on our website. Reviews after reviews have confirmed that NuForce amp can stand up to amp costing well into the 5 figure price range. We decided to shorten the audition queue by sending out more amplifiers so stay tune. But supply is extremely tight.
We're not trying to start a price war with other manufacturers, just in case there is a misunderstanding of our mission. We believe that with breakthrough in technology and high volume manufacturing technique, we can bring high end audio to average consumer and thus expand the market for all vendors. If prices continue to stay high, we won't be able to bridge the gap and reach the new generation of music lovers who grow up with ipod/mp3.
Jason
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I am glad Jerry likes it. Sure, keep it a little longer if you like.
Keep in mind that Jerry is auditioning the 70W version. The 100W amp has a lot more continuous power. Both amp has the same 288W peak and 144W average cycle power into 8 ohm. In response to the previous posting, it is not true that switching amp can't out perform linear or tube amp. Our amp is unlike other switching amp. Read the technology and FAQ sections on our website. Reviews after reviews have confirmed that NuForce amp can stan ...
Hi Jason, You are talking about getting prices down to the average consumer. Do you really think that a typical consumer will pay $800 for an amp, each mono block, single channel?I do not think so. I most likely will when I have the cash do do so. This was why I suggested taking your 70W and putting them in a stereo configuration. Are you guys planning to have an intregrated? Actually, a price war would be a good idea from the standpoint, that there are a lot of high priced stuff out there that is high priced in some respects for ego, and well, because they can. I don't want to mortgage a house, just want to have a stereo that will last for awhile and sound really really good.
Ray Bronk
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....Keep in mind that Jerry is auditioning the 70W version. The 100W amp has a lot more continuous power. Both amp has the same 288W peak and 144W average cycle power into 8 ohm....
has a lot more continuous power? 30watts or 1.55dBW What am I missing?
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I like Ray's idea of having a stereo version.
But I think $800 per mono block is very reasonable if it really is a giant slayer.
When you consider that there are amps that cost 5k and sound rubbish then you are most definately starting a price war against the high end country club. But it will be a just war :wink:
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(Sorry if this has been covered before, I'm a newbie to the circle)
What is this amp's clipping behaviour like? When it does finally clip, does it soft clip like the icepower/tube amps do or clip nastily in Tripath/AB style?
As far as preamps go, is a simple passive attenuator likely to cause impedance problems, or is a buffered output recommended? cheers.
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its a wierd clipping - definatly a soft clip and its able to play a lot louder after break in i noticed :)
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I realise this is a nuforce thread but ..... Werticus and Rocket what can you tell me about these War Audio speakers? Their website tells you next to nothing and the kit page only shows a page with some pictures of, I have to say, damm ugly speakers.
Of course looks dont matter sound does. I live in Adelaide and we have VAF Research, Krix, Sonique, Duntech so there is a whole lot to choose from as far as speakers go.
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Ugly you say :)
(http://www.dvstudios.biz/dvs/ref.jpg)
VAF and Krix are mid fi speakers - sonique, duntech I have never heard of.
This is best of the best type stuff.
They use the best tweeter (raven) and the best mid range (accuton) and the best woofer (cabasse) known to exist - in a very well built cabinet, using very good x over components (axon) completely designed by Pat (winner of CES2001 most real sound of the show or some such award)
They arnt available in a kit - 8k retail.
Perhaps a PM with more specific questions is in order but this is a nuforce thread so so in order to keep it on topic...
the nuforce reference 8 amp is the perfect amp to drive ones reference ones! ;-)
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Agisthos,
have a look at the Aussie Pie circle for more on the W.A.R. range. There are a couple of threads on speakers.
I think WAR have some very fine stuff though I'm not convinced that putting together one of the most expensive tweeters with one of the most expensive mids and one of the most expensive woofers necessarily equates to the ultimate system.
Note: I have NOT heard the ref 1.
jules
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Yes they do look nice. Pity they dont mention anything about those on their website
I was talking about these www.warco.com.au/waraudio/kits/kits.html
You would not call Vaf's stuff midfi if you have heard their signature range
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I'm not convinced that putting together one of the most expensive tweeters with one of the most expensive mids and one of the most expensive woofers necessarily equates to the ultimate system.
Thank god someone else finally said it. I can't tell you how strongly I agree with this statement.
:thumb:
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I have a pair of the Nuforce Reference 8 monoblock amps coming for an audition from Mike at Tweakgeeks, along with some CT reference mkII interconnects. I will be doing an A-B comparison with my Don Nance modified DNA LA-100 amp w/ VH Audio OIMP V-Caps.
Should be interesting. Hopefully Gordy can come up for a listen too.
NB
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Hi Agisthos,
I don't want to go over the top as i'm trying to reform myself. Firstly, i really am a firm believer that you really need to hear speakers in your own system and make your own assessments.
I have listened to the vaf dcx speaker and it didn't sound as good as my old war audio speakers which used a focal 120tdx tweeter and 2 x 7 inch access (focal) mid/range drivers in an mtm configuration. I have also heard krix speakers and thought they sounded fine. How much do the vaf signatures sell for in adelaide? If you like them you should consider them as you should be able to hear them for yourself.
I also agree with hantra that using top line components won't guarantee a great sounding speaker. Pat is a first class speaker designer.
I'm surprised how long this thread has gone. I'm usually lucky if i get one post. I initially started the thread as i thought the nuforce amplifier sounded better than bel canto monoblocks and were good value.
Regards
Rod
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I have a pair of the Nuforce Reference 8 monoblock amps coming for an audition from Mike at Tweakgeeks, along with some CT reference mkII interconnects. I will be doing an A-B comparison with my Don Nance modified DNA LA-100 amp w/ VH Audio OIMP V-Caps.
Should be interesting. Hopefully Gordy can come up for a listen too.
NB
BTW, Its TweekGeek :D
Regarding the performance of the amps. My initial impression hasn't changed much since I first placed them in my system. There is significant speed, not just rise time, but decay time (when appropriate) is very fast as well. I am certain this is due to the power supply being able to "let go" of the signal unlike a transformer based power supply. For instance, a piano player strikes the key(s) hard. On most systems you get the dynamic transient of the key strike, but with these amps you also hear the fingers coming off the keys quickly as well. It just gets you one more step closer to realism.
Violins playing complex pieces full of harmonics are rendered more fully. You hear more harmonics leading to a more natural sound.
The soudstage width and depth are rendered very well. No complaints there.
There is an overall non-fatiguing sound to these at any volume level. There is no sacrifice in detail to achieve this non-fatiguing sound. These things will play louder than any 100 watt amp I have ever heard before. They played as loud, and sounded way better than my Parasound Halo A 51, a 250 wpc 90 pound beast. In comparison with the Parasound, the Nuforce had a smoother midrange and treble that was without glare or zippiness. The Parasound had incredible impact and force, but was downright zippy in the treble.
My EM meter reads very low on the NuForce amps. This is probably due to the fact that their isn't a massive transformer under the hood. In my opinion, this too plays a large role in their exceptional sound.
In comparison with my Sony ES Direct Digital Stream setup (9000ES SACD player with firewire out to 9000ES Digitally amplified receiver). The Sony setup had bested the Parasound by a wide margin as far as detail, soundstage, smotthness and accuracy. The 100 watt NuForce amps had more guts, detail, better harmonic information, and less harshness (especially at higher volumes) than the 200 watt Sony Direct Digital system.
The most important factor to me was, I could listen to my "old stuff" again without running out of the room, or turning the volume down. It was just a feeling of satisfaction I had in my gut. Knowing that it just sounded right. I was able to just kick back, enjoy whatever was playing without grinding my teeth, over analyzing things, or reaching for the volume knob to turn it down. It was the kind of enjoyment I had when I was first listening to music, when I wasn't so damn obsessed with the equipment. These amps brought back those long lost feelings. That to me is priceless.
I hope everyone here can find this type of satisfaction in listening to their music. That's what its all about. At least I hope...
Cheers
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What about power line conditioning? Same as usual or ___?
Thanks ---Richard DC---
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tweek geek sure knows how to put it into words.
This amp just sounds RIGHT :)
also i said best tweeter, best mid, and best woofer AND a great designer ....
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What I used for Power conditioning:
I ended up using a 4 outlet hospital grade outlet box that I incorported Bybees into (2 paralelled on the hot, 2 paralleled on the neutral, one on the ground). you can get the outlet and the box at McMaster.com.
It also has a detachable power cord. For which I used the ZCable Blue Lightning PCs ($125) throughout my system. My CD, preamp, and amps were plugged into the "Bybee box".
I had the "Bybee box" plugged into a Walker Velocitor, which yielded a slightly better sound. Not 3k better, but better.
I haven't tried the balanced power units with this combo yet. I've been enjoying this setup too much.
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I like Ray's idea of having a stereo version.
But I think $800 per mono block is very reasonable if it really is a giant slayer.
When you consider that there are amps that cost 5k and sound rubbish then you are most definately starting a price war against the high end country club. But it will be a just war :wink:
Hi, Well, not to hijack this thread to much, but Newfource would be wise to bring out the stereo .70 version and market it to the chain stores like Best Buy and Circuit City. crazy! no, it would definitely get the product out there. The R&D is already done, putting the mono in one box would not be that difficult. I think Best Buy for ex. carries Parasound, wihch in some circles of there product line is definitely high end. If marketting to the massis is one of the goals of this company, then there's a start. I think there will be a time coming in unfortunately the not to distant future where $1600 is gonna be a lot for a lot of people. Not exactly doom and gloom, but the signs are there. Newforce is on the right track. They wouldn't be intensionally starting a price war, but because the stuff sounds so good, it would hopefully force these high end vendors to take a second look, hopefully a looong 2nd look. If you look back at all of the major players in the industry, people like Bob carver Saul Win, Saul Marantz, Dolquist, John Bedini, and some countless others, they were in some ways ahead of there time. That is where Newforce is now. Sorry, to rant here, but I personally look forward to seeing what they can come out with in the future.
Ray Bronk
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Newfource would be wise to bring out the stereo .70 version and market it to the chain stores like Best Buy and Circuit City...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Newfource would be wise to bring out the stereo .70 version and market it to the chain stores like Best Buy and Circuit City...
Like that huh. Smile bak. Look at someone like bob Carver, In some ways, his stuff was revolusionary, that little cube amp of his with a few little mods was rather decent. Now his sunfire sutff is up there in the high end circles.
Saul Win with his "Weathers" turntable was at that time a real headturner and was afordable by the masses. We all know what Saul Marantz did. The late John Daulquist made some speakers like the DQ10, that had a lot of notarity and a lot of people bought them. Now John Bedini somewhere up in ID I think, built an amplifier using only diodes. His problem was marketting. Now he was never in the mass stores, but you look at Harmon Carden whose amps were perhaps midfi in today's world, but before the big conglomeret took over produced an interesting cassette deck, that for its time beat the pants off a lot of machines. Now I realize I have only been in the audio world since my senior year in high school some 30 years ago. I really don't have to much clue what is out there now. I in no way could pretend to keep up with the stuff out there. There was a lot of junk out there back then, and now that junk has gotten a lot mor sophisticated. You have to start somewhere. That's all I am saying. So go ahead and laugh, grin, the laugh is on me.
Ray
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Nahh Ray I'm not laughing at you. I'm just saying what you said was funny b/c it might be the WORST thing they could do to their credibility as a high-end player.
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I'm not convinced that putting together one of the most expensive tweeters with one of the most expensive mids and one of the most expensive woofers necessarily equates to the ultimate system.
This same analogy seems to apply to most of the high end, especially in amplifier design.
There seems to be a whole heap of amp manufacturers out there who take a 20 year old design and just start adding the most expensive capacitors, silver wire, hand wound transformers e.t.c until pretty soon they have to charge 10k-20k to even cover their costs.
But the fundamental amplifier design is still the same and it shows they have no engineering creativity.
That is why when new topologies like Nuforce come along it is exciting cos I hope it can break that cycle
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Nahh Ray I'm not laughing at you. I'm just saying what you said was funny b/c it might be the WORST thing they could do to their credibility as a high-end player.
Well, I would be also going after the "midfi" market, and that would raise the bar a lot. Everybody knows McDonalds hamburgers aren't the best in the world, but they are a household name. It's all in the marketing stragety.
Ray
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I read the posting about Stereo and Best Buy etc.
I can't disclose our plan for the rest of 2005. But we're going to further surprise a lot of people. Coming up with a Stereo amp is too incremental. We think the Ref series monoblock amp and preamp will be very competitive in $2K to $20K audiophile amplififers market.
If we want to enter the premium consumer market (ie BOSE's market), we want to have a product that has the shock and awe impact. Also a product that can be a category killer. Ok, please don't speculate.
Jason
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I read the posting about Stereo and Best Buy etc.
I can't disclose our plan for the rest of 2005. But we're going to further surprise a lot of people. Coming up with a Stereo amp is too incremental. We think the Ref series monoblock amp and preamp will be very competitive in $2K to $20K audiophile amplififers market.
If we want to enter the premium consumer market (ie BOSE's market), we want to have a product that has the shock and awe impact. Also a product that can be a category killer. Ok, please don't speculate.
Jason
"Coming up with a Stereo amp is too incremental." Hi Jason, Pardon me for asking, what does that mean? puzzled. I do understand that you guys are trying for a specific premium market, but what about the "midfi" market that has been sorta staggnant for years. That's why I suggested the stereo .70 version, strictly for that market. I don't think I am asking for the future, but if you want to PM me that's ok. Maybe, make that .70 unit a 5 or 6 channel version ion in one box for home theather stuff. Hey just some thoughts.
Ray
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given the size of the amp - a stereo version seems pointless - maybe just chuck some sticky tape around it and its done!
what a consumer will want is a remote control for volume - i.e. a build in pre amp.
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Hi,
I don't mean to start an argument with anyone but i don't really agree with trying to market to the midfi market. That market is really after super cheap all in one hifi products with about $500us or thereabout.
It will be interesting to read what nuforce comes up with.
Regards
Rod
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I'd like to see a hi powered mono amp like the 350 W version followed by a potent 5 Ch amp. 8) Five channels wouldn't be too incremental, would it? :wink:
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just read the Cyrotweek mini-review, and would like to ask if you are driving the SP Tech speakers with the Nuforce. It has been acknowledged that the SP Timepieces require lots of juice. They challenged my 200wpc tube amp, and forced Nathan's 500wpc (if I recall correctly) pro amp into clipping. How is the Nufoce handling them, if that is the speaker you are using? I'll bet it's got more than enough power.
One more thing before I forget - the Nuforce is exceptionally quiet, thus creating a really black background for the music, and I'm achieving this with the stock power cords.
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the nuforce seems to have a lot more power than its specs read - its probably due to the 'long' time period it can actually sustain peak.
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You must think further ahead than that. What is the future of audio?
NuForce has some great ideas that will surprise all of you. One reason I took on the company was their ability to see what other "high end" manufacturers simply have not seen coming. It is a much needed fresh perspective on this industry. Just wait...
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Just wait...
We are! That's all we can do until they get some manufacturing going.
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given the sound coming out of these tiny, cheap and light amps
i believe it :)
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Are there other models of the NuForce amp available?
Mono's? Higher powered unit?
I love the price of the $800 amp!
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill, that's $800 per monoblock. The pair is $1600. They are coming out with a 350 watt pair of mono's. Retail $2800????? Not sure.
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Thanks Darth,
I take it that they just do a mono amp then - not a stereo amp.
I'm looking for mono's.
Any idea from anyone when the 350 watt mono's will hit the market?
Any other amp configurations coming from Nuforce in the near future?
Thanks,
bill
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Bill, your best bet is to talk to the TweakGeek http://www.tweekgeek.com/
He can answer your questions.. I spoke with him yesterday.. Very informative.
Good Luck,
Gary
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Bill,
NuForce told me that they are expecting the Ref9 350 watt monoblocks to be out around the end of June. That was over three weeks ago, so things could have changed.
This is one of the best companies I have ever worked with. They respond to dealer needs, feedback, corrections, and suggestions promptly and politely. And their products are great sounding, reasonably priced and ahead of the rest of the industry. They seem to be releasing new products very quickly when one considers that they had only the original Ref8 70 watt monoblocks at THE Show in January. What a find!
Thanks,
:D :D :D
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are the prices that they show on their web site per monoblock or price per pair?
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marvda1,
Those prices are per monoblock.
Thanks,
Bill
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given the size of the amp - a stereo version seems pointless - maybe just chuck some sticky tape around it and its done!
what a consumer will want is a remote control for volume - i.e. a build in pre amp.
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Hi,
I don't mean to start an argument with anyone but i don't really agree with trying to market to the midfi market. That market is really after super cheap all in one hifi products with about $500us or thereabout.
It will be interesting to read what nuforce comes up with.
Regards
Rod
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Ray,
Why do you have trouble using the quoting capability? Your posts are a bear to read.
Ted
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Being such light weight amps how do you keep them stable with the potential for such heavy and/or stiff interconnects,speaker cables and power cords?
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Ray,
Why do you have trouble using the quoting capability? Your posts are a bear to read.
Ted
Hi Ted, Not sure what the problem is. If I go below the quotes, is that a problem? Sorry for the hassle. Any constructive suggestions are definitely welcome.
Ray
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Dunno why your quotes button doesn't neatly put the text in the nice gray boxes, etc. Oh well, no big deal really. Sorry to hijack.
I am gonna try and see if these Ref 8's drive my RM/X's! They would replace old Krell class A gear.
Ted
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Hi Ray,
Thanks for the clarification and mature response. I get nervous writing anything slightly controversial on this forum as it usually turns into a heated argument.
Upper midfi would be great imo. I thought nuforce's prices reflected that or do you mean a one box solution for $1000us :?: . In oz the 70 watt is selling for $1500au. You can buy rotel/nad at those prices.
Regards
Rod
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Dunno why your quotes button doesn't neatly put the text in the nice gray boxes, etc. Oh well, no big deal really. Sorry to hijack.
I am gonna try and see if these Ref 8's drive my RM/X's! They would replace old Krell class A gear.
Ted
Hey Ted, not sure how I should put the replies? My screen access program doesn't readily see the colors, unless I tell it to look for them. Go ahead and PM me on this if you wish. Frankly, this is a bit of a pain to reply this way too. grin.
Ray
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Hi Ray, you have BBCode disabled in your profile. You can re-enable it from the profile link at the top of the page, or let me know and I'll sort it out for you ;)
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Hi Ray, you have BBCode disabled in your profile. You can re-enable it from the profile link at the top of the page, or let me know and I'll sort it out for you ;)
Hi Theborg, Is this better? Sorry folks to slightly highjack this thread, but I don't want my posts hard to read.
Ray
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I have read through this entire thread and think that the whole thing has a slew of great info about Nuforce amplifiers, the company, and dealers.
In fact, this whole thread is really more about Nuforce as a company and its choices in the amplifiers it designed and now has available.... and how to buy them... and so on.. I realize this is a popular subject but it belongs in Market Square... If anyone objects to me moving it there, PM me with good reasons it should stay in 2-channel.
Thanks,
Carl
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I think we should create different topics for NuForce under AudioCircle.
Like "NuForce for hometheater", "Speakers for NuForce", "Preamp for NuForce", "Interconnect & cable for NuForce" and keep the discussions informative and technical.
Move this thread to the market place is fine with me.
For those who like to write a review for NuForce, send it to us.
NuForce could start a discussion on our website but why bother. Since audiocircle has a big following and we would rather send people here.
We at NuForce are very appreciative of the enthusiasm and support. But this thread is getting out of control (too long) :).
Jason
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Well many small manufacturers have their offical website forum based here. Why dont you ask the admins to create a Nuforce group?
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Hi Ray, you have BBCode disabled in your profile. You can re-enable it from the profile link at the top of the page, or let me know and I'll sort it out for you ;)
Hi Theborg, Is this better? Sorry folks to slightly highjack this thread, but I don't want my posts hard to read.
Ray
Thats a whole lot better !!! :D
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Well many small manufacturers have their offical website forum based here. Why dont you ask the admins to create a Nuforce group?
I love this community, looking forward to participating in a new nuforce manufacturer circle!
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Hi Ray, you have BBCode disabled in your profile. You can re-enable it from the profile link at the top of the page, or let me know and I'll sort it out for you ;)
Hi Theborg, Is this better? Sorry folks to slightly highjack this thread, but I don't want my posts hard to read.
Ray
Thats a whole lot better !!! :D
Thanks for the help, and now back to the newforce excitement.
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Go to market square and vote for NuForce manufacturer circle.
I think that's how this place works :).
By the way, it is NuForce, not newforce.
I am glad NuForce becomes a popular discussion here. We will certainly help out with the cost of running this website (that's what the FAQ said, this place survives on donation :)).
Jason
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Donations are how it all works!
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Another veil has been lifted.
Two days ago, I unplugged the Sony 9000ES I was using as a preamp, and inserted a passive attenuator from Luminous Audio ($150). I think they call it the Axiom. Anyhow I modded it by adding Silver Nextgen female RCAs to it, plus my own interconnect wire. So it is a little different than the stock Axiom.
When I plugged it in (the RCA's, not the AC), I wasn't ready for that big of an improvement. Getting the preamp out of the way was huge. It was as big an improvement as the Bybees on the AC. The soundstage grew much more 3 dimensional, and the speed, Oh man... Before I would hear an instrument decay, like a violin and it was terrfic, but I did not realize how "opaque" that decay was. Now the decay is also transparent, revealing details underneath that I had never heard before. For instance, there is one violin piece, sorry can't remember the name right now, but there is a series of quick plucks from another viloin right after the lead violinist finishes playing. Those quick plucks were masked before by the decay of the notes played by the lead violinist. Now they are there, and add another level of realism to the music. I could only sit there, shaking my head, laughing at just how good my system sounds now.
Anyhow, you guys may want to try one of these attenuators, heck they are cheap enough. They are sold direct by Luminous Audio Technology (http://www.luminousaudio.com/axiom.html)
(http://www.luminousaudio.com/Images/preamp_front_MD.jpg)
(http://www.luminousaudio.com/Images/preamp_rear_MD.jpg)
It is also a testimony to the quality of the amps, revealing just how good they are.
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This is killing me. I have a preamp in my house right now that I am fiending to buy b/c it's the best piece of gear I've ever had in my house. But people I respect like preampless systems. Although I have never heard one that didn't benefit from a GOOD preamp versus a passive, I have enjoyed getting not good pre's out of systems and replacing them with passives.
I dunno. Hurry up and get some 350's out! :lol:
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Thats real cheap!!
How does it compare to other passive preamps? I only wonder because of how almost everybody says the sound of passives is really clean but there is a lack of dynamics and bass with them.
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I've been disappointed with "digital" amps in the past in this regard. Dynamics, speed, bass punch, power yes -- but they sound a bit sterile musically, and lack the rich tonality of good tube amps. Perhaps the Nuforce amps -- hopefully -- have gotten this part right too. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
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I've heard plenty of great passives, but if I don't have them here to do a side by side, I cannot comment accurately enough. I can tell you I do not hear any compression of dynamics or stage width/depth. Bass is fine as well.
I do know that the amps are getting more musical information than ever, and they just keep getting better and better. No disappointments there at all.
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I've been disappointed with "digital" amps in the past in this regard. Dynamics, speed, bass punch, power yes -- but they sound a bit sterile musically, and lack the rich tonality of good tube amps. Perhaps the Nuforce amps -- hopefully -- have gotten this part right too. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
Yes, to sum what has already been said. You are correct. Most other digital amps lack the emotional factor. This may be due to limited bandwidth, or many other issues of conventional amplifiers. The Nu force is different. It is not digital per se, it is an analog switching amplifier. Read the info on their site regarding this. Not only that, they have a much higher bandwidth than most digital amps. The NuForce's Frequency response extends out to 100k, which in my opinion, captures the harmonics that makes the frequencies we are capable of hearing more "real".
I also think not having a huge, EM generating toroidal transformer in the power supply is beneficial as well.
Bottom line, the NuForce's convey emotion like no digital amp I have heard to date can.
Cheers.
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This is killing me. I have a preamp in my house right now that I am fiending to buy b/c it's the best piece of gear I've ever had in my house. But people I respect like preampless systems. Although I have never heard one that didn't benefit from a GOOD preamp versus a passive, I have enjoyed getting not good pre's out of systems and replacing them with passives.
If you want a good explanation of why a well designed preamp sounds better than any passive pre, submit your question to Steve Sammet of SAS. My own personal experience with several pre's confirms that they have an inherent problem that can't be overcome unless you go active.
Once you've heard his 10A, you would understand more clearly. imho :wink:
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...I also think not having a huge, EM generating toroidal transformer in the power supply is beneficial as well.
Why do you say that? While the typical toroidal power transformer is guilty of a multitude of sins, EM (I assume you mean electromagnetic interference, EMI) is certainly not one of them. For that problem, the toroid is the least problematic of transformers.
Conversely, one could say that a switching supply is often roiling with RFI/EMI, far more than the typical linear supply. Could you explain further?
TIA
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...I also think not having a huge, EM generating toroidal transformer in the power supply is beneficial as well.
Why do you say that? While the typical toroidal power transformer is guilty of a multitude of sins, EM (I assume you mean electromagnetic interference, EMI) is certainly not one of them. For that problem, the toroid is the least problematic of transformers.
Conversely, one could say that a switching supply is often roiling with RFI/EMI, far more than the typical linear supply. Could you explain further?
TIA
I don't claim to be an expert, I only relay what my em meter tells me. You are right however, toroids are far less offensive than iron core transformers. My meter goes off the scale when it gets near an iron core . What other issues do transformers create?
It might be interesting to see if there are any RFI/EMI issues with the NuForce, but I do not have the equipment to measure that, and I am having too good of a time listening to them. In all seriousness, I haven't heard any typical RFI grunge and harshness issues at all with these amps.
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I only wonder because of how almost everybody says the sound of passives is really clean but there is a lack of dynamics and bass with them.
not every system is passive compatible. choice of interconnect from preamp to amp is important as the wrong interconnect can present associated capacitance driving problems. there are other things that need to be considered as well which are addressed in the excerpt below which is cut and pasted from the EVS website.
1. How do I know if I am passive compatible?
Passive preamps (attenuator/volume control) do not work in every system. Here is a
very general rule: If you have a 2 volt CD source (player or DAC), an amp with at
least 26 db of gain (20 times), speakers at least 88db sensitive and don't listen screamingly
load and don't have a huge room, then you are probably passive compatible. Any one
perimeter not met and it may not work.
The best passives I have heard are the nude stepped attenuators from Scott Endler and Ric Schultz.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/id2.html
http://www.tweakaudio.com/Ultimate%20Attenuators.html
I've had experience w/ the CIA, Bent, and Placette passives...These stepped attenuators have worked better than any of these in my system. They do not lack dynamics or bass at all. in order to surpass the performance of the stepped attenuator, IMHO you'd have to spend over $3K for an active linestage that can match it w/ the same type of transparency, purity of tone and dynamics.
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toroids are far less offensive than iron core transformers.
a designer once told me that he preferred to use iron core transformers because the generated field can be "tuned" or "positioned" by placement and rotating it so it interacts minimally with other critical components. toroidal transformers generate an even field around the entire toroid that can not be controlled by rotating the position.
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I only relay what my em meter tells me. You are right however, toroids are far less offensive than iron core transformers. My meter goes off the scale when it gets near those an iron core . What other issues do transformers create? .....
Any meter will go off scale if you set that scale low enougth. What meter? What are you measuring? At what distance? With respect to toroids and 'EM', its not a problem that a can can't (literally and figuratively) fix. If you'd like to discuss the pros and cons of different powertranfomer implementations, feel free to open a "Power Transfomer Tradeoffs" thread in the Lab circle. There is far more than EM....
I asked for a further explanation and you've told me nothing. You're obviously not overly familiar with transformer technology or characteristics, so why tout the product you sell with such silly comparitve claims?
Its well and good for you to share your sincere subjective views as an audiophile, but as a vendor, you really should try keep the objective, actually accurate and verifiable, or at least sensible. You are held to a higher standard than a hobbyist.
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Tweekgeed or others, I'd be interested in whether you have powered the nuforce with balanced power. I find that balanced power generally helps reduce the noise significantly and can support efficient amps.
WeTicus,
what kind of amp were you using before the nuforce?
thanks.
Phil
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I haven't heard any typical RFI grunge and harshness issues at all with these amps.
I have in the first 30 seconds or so of turning them on , some wierd almost radio interference sound comes throught the tweeter and then once they have turned fully 'on' it goes away...
Before the nuforce I was using a rather large and heavy class A/B with 255wrms on tap, it had two 300va torriodals, it was using me340/350 pairs of mosfets and occam actually helped me to get it to sound half way to decent with some minor mods. It was compared to be on par to the ASKA 100w with the works, at a listen off at my local.
The 70w nuforce is light years ahead of it - with technically more peak power on tap the nuforce can drive the speakers to what seems to be a louder volume (not measured) but at the same time remains so much clearer than the old amp even at low volumes.
I also cannot get over how fast this amp is, drums are just real. And how separated the sound stage is - truly amazing. This comparision holds up vs the rather good belcanto amp too.
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There is probably an explanation for it, I do not have one. However, I leave them powered on all the time.
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Go to market square and vote for NuForce manufacturer circle.
I think that's how this place works :).
By the way, it is NuForce, not newforce.
I am glad NuForce becomes a popular discussion here. We will certainly help out with the cost of running this website (that's what the FAQ said, this place survives on donation :)).
Jason
Hi Jason, Sorry about the misspelling. My speech synthesizer pronounces them both either way, so did not look at the spelling.
Ray
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Mad DOg, A toroidal transformer radiates more of its field in a horizontal plane than a vertical plane. The field is donut shaped. If you mount it on edge you can lessen its potential interference with nearby circuitry. It can also be shielded of course.
Scotty
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Turning on NuForce amp - if you first power it up without any music, then the amp is not fully on (that's why you might hear some strange very low level noise, no harm).
In the Instruction sheet, we mentioned that the proper (and logical) way to turn on the amp is:
1. Turn on the amp (don't play any music)
2. Play music to fully power up the amp (it takes 2 seconds).
This is a one time event. It doesn't power down anymore. If you leave the amp on all the time, it consumes 6W during idle.
One of the reason this amp is so fast and accurate is that the output signal from the speaker terminal is being fed back to the modulator and any error is corrected at every cycle. And the bandwidth helps (you can actually use NuForce amp for ultrasound application. No kidding. It can drive pure capacitive load).
For many switching amplifiers, they use clock generated PWM waveform and that requires a 50 or 100 to 1 ratio between the switching freq and the audio bandwidth. Therefore it is a huge challenge for those amplifiers. If they increase the clock too much, the high power components can't switch that fast (to get 20khz audio bandwidth, they have to switch at 1Mhz). There are also a lot of noise when you switch that fast. It is difficult for many switching amp to have good high freq sound.
NuForce is clockless and the switching freq to audio bandwith is 5 to 1.
There is another big advantage related to phase but too proprietory and we can't discuss.
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Hi Jason of NuForce,
When will the balanced version of the monos be ready for order? (the model on the website)
When will the high powered version be ready for order and will the price be $2800 for the pair?
Thanks,
Bill
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also i understand that my 70w version can be upgraded to 100w with a power supply change?
does this apply to the 350w version also? is it just an upgrade?
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Ref 8b is available for order NOW (limited quantity)
Ref 8 is out of stock (no dealers have any inventory except may be their demo pair)
We are going to SUBSTANTIALLY increase production (again!) and will fix this inventory problem by end of May. Supply will remain tight until then.
It takes 3 to 4 weeks to schedule and complete a production run and smaller batches from previous schedule are being completed in the next two weeks.
Some of the 70W Ref8 that has the "colorful" faceplate (collector's item someday?) can not be upgraded to 100W. Those "newer" 70W Ref8 with the same faceplate as the STANDARD 100Wrms Ref8 can be upgraded to 100W but we have not decided if we want to do that. This is a BACKDOOR to get the 100Wrms for cheap! Right now we so tight with supply so don't contact us about upgrade. Enjoy your 70W version if you are the "lucky" few who got it. Contact us in a few months and we'll see what we can do.
350W Ref9 - estimated time of arrival is end of June. This little baby will still weight less than 5 lbs but with 350Wrms, 900W of peak into 4ohm load. Are you running a concert at home :) ? Some very hard to drive speakers will need Ref9.
Kid you not, next year you will see 500W to 2000Wrms amp weighing about 5 lbs (yes, still tiny). Not sure how's the performance of these monster amps as they're based on a totally different class (NOT Class D). Come on, nobody need this much power at home :nono: Be nice to your neighbor! They might be good enough for clubs and concerts.
BTW, do you know that if you're the DIY type, you can purchase the parts from nphysics.com and put together your own stereo version or multichannel amps in a box ? Don't send email to NuForce about parts. Contact Nphysics. You can inquire about pricing, but everything is out of stock.
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...There is another big advantage related to phase but too proprietory and we can't discuss.
So, you'd tell us, but you'd have to kill us?
I really do like this 'drama queen' approach to marketing......:D
As proprietary as 'it' may be, there is quite alot of public information available. Mr Tranh's initial patents on the technology -
http://v3.espacenet.com/results?sf=a&FIRST=1&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPODOC&TI=pwm+controller+single+cycle&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=&EC=&IC=&=&=&=&=&=
As well as Nuforce's parent company's website
for descricptions of the innards of the Nuforce products, and some prices -
http://www.nphysics.com/products.htm
and their technical section -
http://www.nphysics.com/whitepaper-scc.htm
From my limited experience and time on those issues relating to Nuforce's previous comments on a compettitve technology, spcifically the Ucd based products, I'll make some obvious comments -
1. Both are self oscillating sytems taking feedback after the reconstruction/output filter. While the Bruno Putzey's original Ucd patent did not fully address that 180o phase lag issuse , the actual implementation adds a passive pole to the feedback loop in addition to existing 2nd order output filter. It is simply not an issue with regards to the Ucd implementation.
2. NPhiysics choice of a BTL (bridge tied load) single rail and Ucd's choice of of a split rail half bridge is not specific to their loop control methodolgies given in their patents, but rather a design choice made for engineering/ecomonic reasons. Either loop control method coud use either rail/output topology, and both have their pros and cons. Similarly, the respective choices of swiching and linear supplies are design choices not specific to their contol loop patents.
3. Mr Tranh of NPhysics is one heck of an impressive guy, as is Bruno Putzeys of Ucd. Their technologies, IMO, are the current practical state of the art for switching amps. Both (among others) can yeild impressive results, and it would depend on the care and expertise given the implementation.
FWIW
Apologies for any innacuracies, but my only source of relevant information has been those rather dry, dense patents. And no doubt, both NPhysics and Ucd are pursuing techniques that are only covered and described in patents pending.
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Hey, Occam, good job :). Yes, Tranh is the genius behind our company. He symbolizes the classic old school garage style entrepreneur that we don't find these days. Unlike some well funded startups with big credentials, he started doing his own R&D in a tiny lab in Santa Rosa, CA.
(http://www.nphysics.com/picts/master-at-work.jpg)
I am on the right:
(http://www.nphysics.com/picts/team.jpg)
Don't worry, we not going to be ran over by some giant. We are well funded and the vultures are circling now...
Jason
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Occam, It would be nice to know how the issue of current shoot through was handled and if the amplifier has a deadband time like the Tripath
or if they circumvented the problem and the resultant crossover type distortion
at the zero crossing point. This is one of the weak points of the Tripath technology that leads to a slight dryness and lack of liquidity compared to the best analogue amps I've heard.
Scotty
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Scotty, digital control theory ain't my thang, and to be honest, I developed a whopping headache trying to wade through the patents and I didn't get all that far. Patent writing is the most obscure and opaque, sort of the worst of both engineering and law. As I said, I really only commented on the obvious.
At some point of severe masochism, I'll revist the patents. I would assume that implicity within any feedback scheme it would at least peripherally address/acknowledge deadtime, shoot through issues as they effect distortion and efficiency. I can only suggest you go to the patent site I referenced, and look at the 'claims' for mention of areas of interest. Then you look through the patent for specific claim support and justification, and try and figure out WTF they're talking about. :?
Or perhaps Nuforce could address your question.
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Jason,
I notice on the website you guys are recommending the Stealth Power Cords for your amps.
Obviously you must have listened to a rnage of power cords before settling on that one. How did that go and what did you find?
Where there any ehhh, cheaper ones that you guys liked?
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Don't worry, we not going to be ran over by some giant. We are well funded and the vultures are circling now...
Jason
The last thing we want to see is a great new technology being bought out by some Mark Levinson type company and then have to start paying 5 grand for the exact same product in fancy casework.
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I am listening to a demo pair of 70w Reference 8 amps. My speakers are Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen III SE rated at 89dB, and I am using an APL Denon 3910 with volume control running direct to the Nuforce amps. I also have listened through a First Sound Presence Deluxe II preamp, but I prefer going direct.
I have noticed two things that I'd like Nuforce to address, if possible.
1)At low volumes, the dynamics "collapse". The amps don't bring my speakers to life until I turn the volume up to nearly "live" vol ...
Where did you get this pair from?? If you have a pair with the 5-way binding post, they have a protection circuit that was set too conservative. If you have the new unit with the Cardas Patented speaker connector, then it's the 70W power supply running out of steam.
As with all volume control, at lower level, they lost resolution. I am not sure how APL implemented their volume, whether it's contant gain, decimation, etc, etc. Unless you are talking really, really low level signal, otherwise, this may be system dependent.
Casey (the guy in the middle...)
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tvad4, what volume does the amp you normally use stop sounding dynamic or lifelike and what brand is it and what is its rated power? Do you know what the impedance curve of your VR4s is? The amp you are using only has 70rms watts available to drive your speakers regardless of how low their impedance curve dips, this may be part of what you are hearing. Do you have any idea what your SPL was when you heard the amps apparently clip?
Scotty
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So, Tvad4, given what you say the Nuforce amps may not be a reasonable replacement for SET amps in the case of low volume listening (as SETs tend to remain "alive" at lower volumes)?
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Jason,
I notice on the website you guys are recommending the Stealth Power Cords for your amps.
Obviously you must have listened to a rnage of power cords before settling on that one. How did that go and what did you find?
Where there any ehhh, cheaper ones that you guys liked?
If you read some recent reviews, you may already know Stealth cable. The power cord is custom designed by Stealth to work well with switching amplifier, especially NuForce amplifier. The Stealth/NuForce cord has no equivalent Stealth part, it's designed just for NuForce, and available only from NuForce.
Go ahead and feel free to experiment with different cords. We were also told by users that Kimber Palladian, Synergistic Master Coupler, work well with Ref8.
Casey
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What powercord is included with the stock Nuforce units?
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A standard power cord like those used for desktop PC.
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A standard power cord like those used for desktop PC.
Nuforce - I think you'll find there are standard powercords and then there are standard powercords......
If you've a mind to, buy a couple of Volex 17604/5 IEC detachable cords, 14ga shielded, 2 & 3 meter respectively -
http://www.carlton-bates.com/cb/invsrch/flocresult.asp?svend=BC&Start=0&Offset=10&srchfield=stkmfgpart&pmvndstkn=BC%2D17604%2FC3%2D25%2F10&pumdbn=41046
Try them and tell us what you think.
If you've curious as to what a nominally equivalent cord can sound like, find a couple of Unicable 6450 cords. Its quite a curious experiment. and careful measurement of capacitive charateristics will tell all.....
I'm not suggesting that the Volex is anywhere near as good as your reccomended Stealth, simply that the slope of the cost/benefit curve can be quite steep at its lower end.
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tvad4,depending on your tolerance of 2nd harmonic distortion products
your tube amp could be driving your speakers quite a bit louder than
than the NuForce amp before you found the distortion objectionable.
The NuForce will have an abrupt transistion from low distortion to very high
distortion and will audibly clip sooner. It may not be very happy with your impedance curve either. Sometimes there is no substitiute for more power.
Scotty
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i find the dynamics to be spot on even at the lowest volumes... and clipping stopped being a problem when it was broken it and i started using a halfway to decent power cord.
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NuForce is not a digital amp
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Hey Jerry, where are you ? Did you post your "full" review ? Time to let go of the amps. We want to upgrade your amp to 100W before sending to the next person in line.
Jason
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Hey Jerry, where are you ? Did you post your "full" review ? Time to let go of the amps. We want to upgrade your amp to 100W before sending to the next person in line.
Jason
I'm lurking around. 8)
I'm ready to post my review, which I plan on doing this weekend.
Spectralman, who owns an EAD modded Carver, come over on Wednesday for a few hours to lend his views, and a couple of other guys may be able to make it this weekend. I don't want to post until then. Spectralman may post his own impresssions.
I hope you remember saying you'd allow me through this weekend to get a couple more opinions. I will ship them back on Monday.
I will make one comment now because of your intent on upgrading the pair I have. I have found lack of power to be a non-issue. These are the most powerful 70wpc amps I've ever heard. I don't come close to clipping them even when playing the most demanding pieces at volume levels that exceed what I'd normally listen at. They are driving my Dynaudio Special 25's - 4ohm, 86db. They also easily drove my Dali Euphonia MS4 floorstanders, which are also 4ohm. I thought you were to offering the 70wpc version at a drastically lower price. Unless the 100wpc version is significantly better sounding, I think the 70wpc represents a great value to someone who may not be able to afford the upgrade.
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thats what i have found - that more power than these amps provide really isnt needed.
however having listened to the 100wpc version - there is an improvment in the 'authority' in the bass... but you would never complain about the 70w's reproduction.
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We never really release the 70W version into the channels. A few units got out and we decided that 100W offers the best performance and value. Initially we priced the 70W at $1500 a pair and raise the price to $1600 to account for the added cost of the power supply.
We have a special deal to clear the 70W power supply that we have in stock. It is difficult to make a business case selling high end monoblock amplifier at $1000 to $1200 a pair, considering the performance and quality of NuForce amp. But it pains me (no joking here) when I hear users saying they can't afford our amp. We're serious about our mission. But given time, we will succeed in bringing down the cost and price. There are customers who want absolute performance and style, money is no objection. NuForce's Ultra Series and Signature Series will cater to that category of users. But we'll continue to drive down the cost of Ref 8 in the future.
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Ultra Series and Signature Series? This is why it's smart to not be an early adopter, IMO.
I hear that.
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Ref series is going to continue for a long time and it is our high performance reference series. We have learned that some editors are going to use them as reference amp to review other equipment such as speakers etc.
We don't have a time frame :) for the other series yet. Just like cars, different products cater to different buyers.
But we'll like to hear your opinion. What do you want and how much are you willing to pay ? A jewel case for double the price :)
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I don't give a whit about the box or packaging. I want an amp that sounds good to my ears, that makes music. Uber clarity and detail don't necessarily translate to making music, IMO.
Imagine a super clear mountain stream. One can clearly see the rocks and fish. The water's inviting, so you step in...and the water is ice cold, so you jump right back out. To me, this is the Ref 8. Now, imagine the same stream with water nearly as clear, but now it has just a touch of algea...just a touch. The water ...
Slightly off topic, but I just heard a friend's system who had the VAC Phi 220 mono amps and let me tell you they are absolutely not tubey or euphonic sounding. What they are is "sweet ass ear candy"!! :notworthy:
These amps let through tons of detail while being so musically engaging that I sat there cd after cd just wishing I could afford them.
If the NuForce amps are anywhere close to the VAC, I really need to hear them ASAP!
George
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Ultra Series and Signature Series? This is why it's smart to not be an early adopter, IMO.
Usually I agree - but can you really fault these babies at this price? I was in the market for an amp and if i didnt buy these because its 'early' days for nuforce then i would have a 10x heavier belcanto amp that sounds 1/2 as good and cost 3x as much!
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Ok guys, that's one feature we can look into:
add some distortion to our amp, like a switch "tube" or standard pure amp :lol:
I am not really joking here. We have been thinking about this. It is true that some people who falls in love with tube can't get use to the purity of NuForce amp. Well, we can't satisfy everyone
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If people want to get that tubey sound they can add a tube preamp or buffered cd player. Keep the amps as neutral as possible.
It is always best to change the type of sound you want by messing with the front end.
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I have heard that VAC make some of the best tubed gear around and that a lot of solid state heads would even like their stuff
How do the Nuforce amps go with your First Sound preamp?
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Nuforce,
Since you ask what folks would like to see: I'd like to see a company that offers excellent trade-in values on their gear, so that audiophiles on a budget can purchase your non-reference gear now and later trade it in for reference gear (and the same, of course, for reference to ultra). That builds customer loyalty and repeat business.
Phil
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Nature Boy
Let me know when the Nuforce arrives, I'm there! I can bring a 150w(?) UcD for comparison :D
Gordy
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Nature Boy
Let me know when the Nuforce arrives, I'm there! I can bring a 150w(?) UcD for comparison :D
Gordy
That is a comparison I would like to hear about considering how highly the UcD modules are talked about by the DIY audio people.
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That's more of an issue for their dealers, not the manufacturer.
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Nature Boy
Let me know when the Nuforce arrives, I'm there! I can bring a 150w(?) UcD for comparison :D
Gordy
That is a comparison I would like to hear about considering how highly the UcD modules are talked about by the DIY audio people.
Hi Agisthos...
NB hopes to have it sometime this coming week, so perhaps we'll get together next weekend or the following.
"I have heard that VAC make some of the best tubed gear around and that a lot of solid state heads would even like their stuff"
I've a bottom of their line VAC Avatar which, being an integrated with no pre out/amp-in, is rather apples and oranges. In the past I've compared it to an AKSA 100N+ and a Butler 2250 and, although exquisite, at 28w it just can't always control bass like the bigger boys can, at least not with my 86dB Scan Speaks...
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tvad4, it was good to hear your thoughts on with the original Ref 8s (70wpc and 21 dB gain) I loaned you. I believe that you would have had additional gains in sound quality, perhaps enough more to please you fully, if you had used upgraded power cords instead of the stock cords. So I correct this soon by stocking some loaner upgraded power cords for future NuForce amp loans.
Very Happy
Thanks,
Bill :D
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Every audiophile, even the hard-to-the-core addict, sometimes just wishes for a no-tweak, no-sweat system that just works and sounds great.
In a few years, I imagine my system will have moved to a more refined version of one of these switching amplifiers, maybe with latest-greatest DAC installed internally, maybe even with USB 2.0 input. I'll just hook up my computer up to it with USB, use some decent zip cords to simple speakers and be done.
With what seems to be a tidal wave of these economical d ...
Lucid, cogent, & right on the money. We are in an amazing time audio equipment-wise.
speaker
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ok, for those of you who have been asking, here is my review:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18583.msg163339#163339
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Ref series is going to continue for a long time and it is our high performance reference series. We have learned that some editors are going to use them as reference amp to review other equipment such as speakers etc.
We don't have a time frame :) for the other series yet. Just like cars, different products cater to different buyers.
But we'll like to hear your opinion. What do you want and how much are you willing to pay ? A jewel case for double the price :)
1 K for each with the fancy case, total $2000. Unless that case is gonna wash my dishes and do my laundry, then asking double your present price is pure vanity. I could see if the price went up a third if the parts inside were even better than what you are using now. You would be doing more pioneering work if you made the PC board using Silver instead of copper. Now that would be an interesting project, with good sonics behind it.
Ray
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Hey NuForce,
looking at the size of this thread and all of the interest generated in NuForce, I think you should offer Rocket some kind of gesture of appreciation for starting this thread. :wink:
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I know, NuForce has become the most viewed/discussed thread of the entire website. But we'll have to thank him privately though :)
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I know, NuForce has become the most viewed/discussed thread of the entire website. But we'll have to thank him privately though :)
take e look also to
http://www.videohifi.com/forum/DEFAULT.ASP
and to italian ML of TNT-Audio
quite HOT...
Ciao
Gianni :P
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I know, NuForce has become the most viewed/discussed thread of the entire website. But we'll have to thank him privately though :)
Actually, you have quite a ways to go for that, but with 2 more posts you'll have Chuck Josephson beat... :lol:
Congrats though!!!
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Hey NuForce,
looking at the size of this thread and all of the interest generated in NuForce, I think you should offer Rocket some kind of gesture of appreciation for starting this thread. :wink:
Maybe, they need to give him a Nuforce pen. lol.
Ray
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There are several technical aspects of NuForce amp that contributed to the performance (our CTO Tranh might have to help out if I got into trouble here) and no other amps have the combination:
1. Very high damping factor - therefore the ability to drive any speaker and super fast response. We have measured the output (source) impedance and it is near zero (10 milliohm) for the entire frequency response. No other amps come close. Therefore the damping factor is extremely high. It is very difficult to have low source impedance at high freq.
2. High bandwidth - we think this provide the wide sound stage
3. Low distortion - this is very hard to measure with equipment due to the carrier frequency that is being treated as noise. But overall THD+N is very low.
4. Phase shift - almost no phase shift. Most amp has 180 or more of phase shift
Some other amps can do one or two of the above, but I will be interested to know if there's any amplifier out there that can meet all four criteria.
May be we should take this discussion elsewhere as we want to leave this thread for listening aspect of NuForce amp.
Jason
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my quickie review of these amps is up...
here's the link.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18583.msg163985#163985
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my review is also at the above link, three posts down :)
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whats the difference between the balanced version and the normal version? is the difference worth the persuing if one has balanced output on their source?
im not really familiar with the difference between the two connections at all - or in regards to nuforces implementation.
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Ref 8b has a true balanced XLR input and better looking faceplate (labels are machine milled).
If you have balanced source, you might want to consider paying extra to get Ref 8b. Internally, they use EXACTLY the same circuit board, which is designed for both balanced and unbalanced input.
We have a few editorial reviews comparing XLR and RCA coming out in June.
It cost more to include both inputs (larger chassis, more connectors) and not everyone want to pay for the extra features :).
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I have just ordered the balanced version through my dealer.
Now the question is - with regards to balanced input, would the nuforces sound better with a longer run of interconnect or a longer run of speaker cable?
Because i could have either length very very short and the other length would need to be a couple of meters.
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The input impedance of NuForce Ref 8 is 47Kohm (other amps also have high input impedance). And your speaker impedance could range from 2 to 16 ohm (at various freq).
Comparatively, the impedance of your speaker cable is a significant part of your load impedance. Therefore a shorter speaker cable should be better (advantage of a 2.5 lbs amp hidng behind the speaker)
Jason
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interesting!
i shall have longer interconnect then - since it is going to be good quality shielded cable, of the balanced sort.
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interesting!
i shall have longer interconnect then - since it is going to be good quality shielded cable, of the balanced sort.
Balanced cables does normally not need to be shielded due to the high CMRR of this design. Any noise being induced into the cable, will effectively be zeroed out.
Regards,
Karsten
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mkay - i know very little about balanced cables and how they work.
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As experiment I'm using a set of JPS biwire jumpers as speaker cable on one channel. Skipping the speaker cables seems to give a pretty good positive effect.......I might end up velcro'ing the amps to the rear of the speakers :D
Brg,
Karsten
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mmmm could build these amps INTO the speakers and wire the silver leads directly into the x o :)
though then vibration becomes an issue.
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It seems like the NuForce really likes short speaker cables! Before using these biwire jumpers as speaker cables, I already had the highest resolution I have ever heard from an amplifier, now using just a few inches of cable, it is incredible. Just more of everything. Well, like removing the famous curtain..... It is definitely something I would recommend trying.
I was worried that the vibrations from the speaker would have a negative effect, but it does not seem to be the case. I guess the module is designed for active speakers as well, so this issue has probably been taken into consideration.
Brg,
Karsten
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how interesting i would definatly like to hear nuforces's opinion about vibration issues! because as we speak im waiting for new speakers - raw cabinets and i have a perfect opportuninty to build them into it.
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We have not done any investigations for vibration issues. This amp is only on the market for 2 1/2 months! And the pre-production version was shown recently in Jan. But hey, it is already into 15 countries (we love how fast we can ship these 2.5 lbs baby).
Our first editorial review in Italy: http://www.videohifi.com/15_nuforce.htm
8 or 9 more to come soon ....
Our in-house audiophile Casey probably believe in vibration. But our CTO and I probably are a little skeptical. How can the sonic vibration (which is low compare to the switching freq) affect the electronics? May be there's some effect somewhere for other amps, but with the NuForce design, it detect the feedback directly from speaker terminal (quality of speaker cable is less important) and does the error correction every cycle.
We will have some speaker manufacturers looking into using it in active speakers. It will take another month or two before we know the result. We are very short of inventory.
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karsten maybe you can do a little a/b with the amps in their current location - via isolating the amps from the speaker with foam or cloth and having them rest directly on top during a bassy sort of track.
i hope the rest of your system is hi end enough to notice a difference if there is one!
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karsten maybe you can do a little a/b with the amps in their current location - via isolating the amps from the speaker with foam or cloth and having them rest directly on top during a bassy sort of track.
i hope the rest of your system is hi end enough to notice a difference if there is one!
Initially I had the amps on the floor, after this I placed them im my Starsound rack, no real sonic difference I could detect. Then I had the one amp hanging in the little speaker cables to compare the difference from left to right channel. There was no doubt that the channel with the few inches of speaker cable sounded better.
Now I just put velcro on the lids of the amps to attach them to the back of the speakers. There is of course a suspension effect in the velcro, which might help to eliminate eventual microphonics.
Placing the amps inside the cabinet will be a more rough environment if you do not make a seperate and isolated chamber for the amps. In your situation I would simply place the amps on the back of the cabinets, as I did. Velcro seems to work fine.
I'm currently using an AA Capitole CD player connected directly to the NuForce with balanced cable. The speakers are SP Technology Revelation. I can hardly complain about the resolution :D
Brg,
Karsten
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eheh the concept of velco and using it to attach an AMP to something is most amusing :)
something i have to get used to :P
I think ill do the velcro to the back thing - then i can get the leads... to be ... basically as long as they are inside the speaker! might even be able to insert the amps terminals into the speaker termials and screw it down! wouldnt even need velcro then ;-)
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Looks like a pair is already on audiogon along with a placette pre...
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1120411182
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someone upgrading to the 100w? :)
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The 70W Ref 8 retail for $1000 a pair NEW (only a handful were delivered before we switched to 100W).
Jason
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The 70W Ref 8 retail for $1000 a pair NEW (only a handful were delivered before we switched to 100W).
Jason
Hey Jason, can you give any hints about the preamp, feature set and possible ballpark price. I'm not asking for trade secrets here, although I would think you guys have something up your sleeves besides an arm and shoulder.
Ray
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Preamp will be priced below $2K, estimated price around $1600 and we hope it will perform as well as other preamp costing 2 to 3x more. Unlike NuForce amps, where we will keep pushing the limit until they outperform everything else on the planet :), we have more modest goal for our preamp. But who knows, we might surprise ourselves again.
It will have a remote control, at least 2 source inputs, may be 3. We're thinking of proving both XLR and RCA mix and match (offering both means doubling the connectors). These connectors are very expensive so we might have two models.
Jason
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Preamp will be priced below $2K, estimated price around $1600 and we hope it will perform as well as other preamp costing 2 to 3x more. Unlike NuForce amps, where we will keep pushing the limit until they outperform everything else on the planet :), we have more modest goal for our preamp. But who knows, we might surprise ourselves again.
It will have a remote control, at least 2 source inputs, may be 3. We're thinking of proving both XLR and RCA mix and match (offering both means doubling the connectors). These connectors are very expensive so we might have two models.
Jason
Hi Jason, Probably like the amps, I'd have two models, one balanced and one just RCA's.
Only 3 sources? Are we talking tuner, CD and phono pre? or are we talking about three different amps to hook up for the sources?
Ray
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Ok, I got the preamp spec for you. This is not an official product announcement.
1) Input: 2 XLR, 8 RCAs: Balanced (1 set), Phono (optional card), CD, Home Theater, Tuner.
2) Digital Volume control
3) remote control
4) Output: RCA (2 set), Balanced 1 set
5) AC input (120/240 worldwide 50/60Hz)
6) Target Dimension, less than 16” wide, 10.5” deep
7) Performance target: 100Khz bandwidth, low THD 0.001%
Jason
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John Clark from UK just wrote a review. NuForce Ref 8 is placed directly under the speaker (on the speaker stand). He's replacing his tube with Ref 8.
http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/endusers/JohnClark.htm
Jason
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how does one wire the pins for going from XLR to RCA for the nuforce?
i have + and - of the XLR going to + and - of the RCA with the earth just being cut. and i am getting a loud hum. :(
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You should connect + and earth from the XLRs to + and - of the RCAs. Leave the - connection from the XLRs floating.
---Gary
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cool works a treat!
interestingly enough it worked a treat the other way with an old amp :P
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XLR to RCA – If you are converting the Preamp XLR output to NuForce RCA input (Reference 8), make sure that your XLR to RCA connector is wired correctly (even if you purchase off-the-shelf XLR->RCA connector, there is no guarantee that it is properly wired):
Pins on XLR are 1-ground, 2-hot, 3-cold (easy to remember), and when patch to RCA, it should be:
Pin-1 = RCA ground
Pin-2 = RCA center pin (+ve)
Pin 3 = no connect
Chassis pin = no connect
If the XLR adapter erroneously tied Pin 1 to chassis pin, there will be a ground loop, as Ref 8 chassis ground is wired to the ground on the AC cord = chassis ground on the preamp. But this is NOT EQUAL to the signal ground on Ref 8. It will basically short our RCA ground to our chassis (via a long loop through the preamp and preamp's AC cord, wall AC socket, and Ref 8 AC cord).
For other people who're using Ref 8b in their system, having truely balanced connections THROUGHOUT the whole system is important. Check with your equipment vendors (preamp, phono etc) about their balance connections.
Check out the support page on NuForce website.
This is a good article:
http://www.rane.com/note151.html
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Mods already.... :o Found this (http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Nuforce_amps.html) while surfing around.... :o [/list:u]
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also this mod: from nuforce:
http://www.nuforce.com/support/F15HER3-patch.htm
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It was only a matter of time before the modders got a hold of nuforce amps. It will be interesting to see what the level 2 mods can do.
Or prehaps Empirical Audio or some of the other amp modders can have a look at nuforce as well
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i prefer to do my own mods or 'kit' mods. :)
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also this mod: from nuforce:
http://www.nuforce.com/support/F15HER3-patch.htm
Hi WerTicus, Well, I wonder if they will just imcorporate that maud in the amps you purchase? Now since I can't see the little graphs/pictures besides removing the caps, do you just bridge the spots where they were with wire and that's it?
Ray
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i think you just cut it and leave it un connected.
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i think you just cut it and leave it un connected.
What do the pictures show?
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uhh well look and you shall see!
they are cut off completly.
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Yes, you just remove the parts. The mod is very simple and to me does very little sonically....especially compared to the other mods that I have done so far. However, it certainly won't hurt to remove them.
I am selling the modded amps (level one mod is free) with the usual 30 day money back gaurantee and I handle the warrantee service in the warrantee period and any possible problem after the warrantee service period. Level one mods make the amps sound better in just about every way: more palpable, more dense images, more 3D, more extended and pure highs, better dynamics, better imaging, tighter bass, etc.....basically more real sounding.
Ric Schultz
EVS
http://www.tweakaudio.com
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Yes, you just remove the parts. The mod is very simple and to me does very little sonically....especially compared to the other mods that I have done so far. However, it certainly won't hurt to remove them.
I am selling the modded amps (level one mod is free) with the usual 30 day money back gaurantee and I handle the warrantee service in the warrantee period and any possible problem after the warrantee service period. Level one mods make the amps sound better in just about every way: more palpable, ...
Hi Rick,
Read your site, so what Mods besides removing the caps do you do? You don't detail what is involved. What are the "Level 2" Mods, and any idea of charges? Thanks.
Ray
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Mod info is proprietary. What really matters is how it sounds....at least that is what matters to me. There will be reviews of modded units versus stock units. The pricing on the level 2 mods depends on what exact parts I use and how much time it takes to mod it. I imagine at least $400. But, it could be less, it could be more. Level 2 mods available in about 4-6 weeks, maybe less. Level 2 mods will be discounted for those buying the amps with mods installed. Level one mods are free with the amps and $150 for anyone else. I may raise the price of level one mods for others since I will now have to honor the warrantee myself once the mods are done....and/or, I may not do level one mods for anyone else, just level 2, since I would make more money and handling the warrantee would then make sense. We shall see.
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Hi Ric,
I need a new amp(s) and am considering either your ice powered stereo that you have on sale or the new nuforce amp with level 1 mod for free. Which would be the better amp for my Sony SS M9ED reference level floorstanders?
Thanks,
Bill
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If you cannot afford the better sounding Nuforce or REALLY need slightly more power than the Ice Power modules are fine. The Nuforce amps reveal a whole nuther layer of reality than the Ice Power modules. However, the Ice Power modules are very, very good and I used a modified version for my own reference amps for over a year. It comes down to how fussy you are and how much you want to spend.
The 100 watt Nuforce will be enough power for most systems but they do have their limitations. If you play music at less than 100 db I would say the Nuforce will work fine. If you want to seriously rock out or use the amps for home theater where you might be listening to 110 db+ peaks of monster stomps/explosions then wait for the 350 watter.
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The support section on NuForce website is not intended for mod :). We take a neutral position toward custom mod. Our policy is not to post mod. Any improvement will go into future products. Now, don't wait if you are going to buy a NuForce amp :). We'll obviously continue to improve the amp year after year, that's just the fact of life. The circuit board on the amp can be upgraded and we will announce upgrade plan with your dealers if it is available in the future. Don't expect any Ref 8 upgrade in 2005 as this amp is pretty good already.
Removing the two capacitors C44,C45 reduce RFI with FM receiver. All switching devices have some level of RFI. The side effect of that patch is that to some people it sounded better. To some, there is no difference. But it will not make it sound worst for sure.
If you can't see the picture on the webpage (why?), get it from
http://www.nuforce.com/support/C44-C45-After.JPG
Just cut the two caps off. That's it. They're are redundant.
email support@nuforce.com if you have questions or problems. The more feedback we get, the more information we have to improve the amps. Don't be shy of emailing us things you like to improve, even though you love your current NuForce amp. I am sure after listening it for a while, you will eventually find something you wish it could be better.
Jason
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Hum? Isn't RFI a form of distortion? I guess you have that in common with Tube Amps? :nono: :lol:
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ric - check your pm...
doug s.
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The circuit board on the amp can be upgraded and we will announce upgrade plan with your dealers if it is available in the future.
Will such an upgrade be customer installable? Will you allow cross-shipping (or better yet, ship the upgrade board first and then allow the customer to return the original) so downtime is minimized?
Thanks!
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ray cant see the pictures of the mod because he is blind, sorry ray for my ignorant and (now) seemingly rude comment at the top of the last page. I didnt know when i wrote it.
The mod itself is rather easy to perform, not that I have personally been affected by it.
I would be intersted to know what the sympoms are if one is having problems with these two caps?
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I did the Nuforce authorized cap removal mod one amp at a time. comparing the one without the caps to the one with makes no difference whatsoever in my system and my ears.
Jason, will there be trade policy? When the higher power monos are available, can I trade my 100 watt monos? Godspeed.
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The sympton is that your FM receiver will get a lot of distortion or can't lockin to a station. With the caps remove, some sensitive FM receivers still have problem scanning for station. This problem doesn't exist on our first production PCB (those very early 70W units) and we only made minor changes since then. It is just a matter of tracking down the problem to fix it.
The RFI is unaudible but you should fix it. Some people mentioned that the amp sounded soooo good with the caps on and are affraid of messing it up :). Don't worry, it won't get worst.
With regards to future circuit board upgrade, it is better that we do the job. It is a simple soldering work but most people don't have good soldering equipment or skill. We have to make sure that it is done right.
Within the US, it can be turn around in about a week. For international customers, the job will most likely be done by the dealer/distributors
Jason
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Just got the the ref8's hooked up and started to burn in.
Well, they started to burn in literally!
There is a strong electrical smell and one of the amps is running way hotter than the other.
Back to the dealer?
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There is a strong electrical smell and one of the amps is running way hotter than the other.
sounds like one of the chokes may have burned out. if you pop the hood of the one that smells, look for the round red circular parts with copper wiring wrapped around it. i think there are 2 of these. if one has burned out, it'll look kind smoky and grey instead of red.
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There is a strong electrical smell and one of the amps is running way hotter than the other.
sounds like one of the chokes may have burned out. if you pop the hood of the one that smells, look for the round red circular parts with copper wiring wrapped around it. i think there are 2 of these. if one has burned out, it'll look kind smoky and grey instead of red.
I popped them open and had a look. They are still red but that is the area that the smell seems to be coming from.
Oh Well. back to the waiting game!
Thanks for the input.
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There is a strong electrical smell and one of the amps is running way hotter than the other.
sounds like one of the chokes may have burned out. if you pop the hood of the one that smells, look for the round red circular parts with copper wiring wrapped around it. i think there are 2 of these. if one has burned out, it'll look kind smoky and grey instead of red.
I popped them open and had a look. They are still red but that is the area that the smell seems to be coming from.
Oh Well. back to the waiting game!
Thanks for the input.
I'd be interested to know what you were driving and how hard when the "magic smoke" appeared?
We were using them for bi-amping the woofers of the SP 2.1's
Was yours a "hard load" in any way?
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John,
No hard load, and no loud volumes.
My guess is the one amp is defective in some way.
I'll talk to the dealer about it.
There was no actual "smoke" that I can see, just a strong electrical smell.
Thanks.
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The support section on NuForce website is not intended for mod :). We take a neutral position toward custom mod. Our policy is not to post mod. Any improvement will go into future products. Now, don't wait if you are going to buy a NuForce amp :). We'll obviously continue to improve the amp year after year, that's just the fact of life. The circuit board on the amp can be upgraded and we will announce upgrade plan with your dealers if it is available in the future. Don't expect any Ref 8 upgrade in 2005 as ...
Hi Jason, You and Ric Schultz ought to get together. If he has found something that would make it better, then you guys ought to form a partnership, Listen to a pair of his modded amps, and if they are as good as he says, then make it a factory upgrade exclusive to him. Just some thoughts that would possibley benefit both of you.
Ray
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Hi,
Perpetual technologies and modwright have a successful partnership where dan's mods don't void the warranty and are factory approved. I believe it has proved pretty successful for both parties.
regards rod
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With regards to smell coming from the amp, don't turn it on without the speakers connected to the amp. If you turn it on without the speaker connected to the amp, then connect the speaker while the amp is still on, that'll be bad too.
When there is no load, the amp could get into a different switching freq or some resonant current could overheat the chokes. The instruction manual warn about that.
If that's not the case, or if you shut it down in time, there should be no damage. Some new electronics when heated up will have some smell initially.
Jason
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Jason,
I followed the instructions fairly carefully.
The speakers were definitely connected to the amp.
As I mentioned, only ONE of the the two amps produced the smell and it ran very very hot. The other amp did not produce a smell and was cool to the touch.
I'll see what the dealer says.
Thanks.
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yeah i wouldnt have that thing plugged into my gear if its getting really hot.
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No problem, we'll replace it through your dealer.
Jason
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Jason,
Thanks.
I'll have to add that from what little listening time I had with them (about an hour or so), the Ref8's showed GREAT, GREAT promise. The midrange was very clear, but not with the usual sterile presentation I have heard from other digital switchers. I felt the emotion and all inflections and overtones of the vocalist coming through. Drums were great as well. Bass took a little to get used to (went lower?) but was very fine.
The uppper registers needed a tiny bit of work. This could be a break-in issue or maybe I am one of the people that would appreciate the "tube-like switch". Is there any more info you can share with us on that?
I think that these amps are very close to being in my top three and look forward to more auditioning.
Good job Nuforce!
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if you only listened to them for a little while then you have leaps and bounds of improvement when they have had 40ish hours... its pretty dramatic :)
whats wrong with the upper registers do you think?
no distortion? :lol:
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The upper register is also where I had problems with the Ref 8 monos...steely, bright, and piercing...non-musical, IMO.
i didn't experience this, but this in no way invalidates what you experienced. of course, there are tons of variables regarding equipment and room. just curious, what source, preamp, power conditioner cabling, and speakers were being used?
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Not my experience either. I used 6 different speakers including high sensitivity horns and single drivers with super tweeter to Maggies 1.6 and the highs were the best I've ever heard from an amp. My observation is after 40 hours of break-in. I also tried all silver IC's and speaker cables and all copper IC's and speaker cables but never heard the fatiguing unmusical highs. Just my experience. Godspeed.
PS: Jason, you never did answer my question about the upgrade policy on this thread.
John
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First Sound Presence Deluxe II preamp w/Amperex PQ 6922 tubes
Von Schweikert VR4 Gen III HSE loudspeakers
MAS Signature Hybrid speaker cable
Revelation Audio Paradise (CD>Pre) and Nirvana SL (Pre>Amp) interconnects
TG Audio 688 power cord on preamp
VH Audio Airsine Power cord on amp
Michael Wolff Source cord on digital source
Shunyata Hydra 2 power conditioner
VH Audio Airsine power cord feeding the Hydra
2 dedicated 20amp circuits with cryo'd Porter Port outlets
Neuance shelf for digital source
Symposium Rollerblocks II under preamp and amp
Reference amp is VAC Phi 110/110 w/ Sylvania 6NS7 GTA "Chrome Top" driver tubes
i'm familiar w/ the sound of the speakers.
very familiar w/ the sound of the RAL cables and VH Audio AirSine. have a little experience w/ the Symposium Rollerblocks...based on my experience with just these components and the NuForce amps, i don't think the RAL cables and the rollerblocks would provide the optimum synergy since i don't think the NuForce amps are going to sound like the VAC.
btw, how is the First Sound line stage?
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Look, let's not get so deeply into the system synergy thing. It could simply be that I don't care for the HF reproduction characteristics of the Ref 8 amps. I'm not the only one in this discussion who heard these qualities. I have also placed the CI Audio D100 monos into my system, and they were extremely musical without any HF brittleness. I have ordered a pair of Ric Schultz's modified Reference 8 monos to try. He claims (unsolicited by me) that his modification takes care of the HF issues, and makes the amps sound overall more musical...
That's cool.. everyone has their own preferences. I've heard the Nuforce amps in 2 different setups and although they are good amps, they won't be displacing what I currently use and own.
What does appeal to me is how quickly this technology has improved and will continue to improve over the next few years. Good times are ahead of us...
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tvad,
it's good to see that you were very thorough in your experimentation w/ the amps. i have read some of your posts on A-gon so i should've known that you didn't just insert the NuForce amps into your system without trying a variety of different combos. 8)
I'm not the only one in this discussion who heard these qualities.
you are correct. compared to the Rowland Model 10, i also had some issues with the HF. i mentioned it wasn't as refined overall. but better than most amps i've heard at its pricepoint. then again, i had the NF amps plugged into the Audience adeptResponse power conditioner w/ shielded AQ NRG-5 PCs and haven't been able to try them plugged straight into the wall w/ unshielded PCs as NF recommends. and i've yet to hear the D-100s in my system so i don't know how the NuForce amps compare to Dusty's creations.
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That's cool.. everyone has their own preferences. I've heard the Nuforce amps in 2 different setups and although they are good amps, they won't be displacing what I currently use and own.
What does appeal to me is how quickly this technology has improved and will continue to improve over the next few years. Good times are ahead of us...
Right on! :thumb:
BTW, how's the DCC2 coming along? Any chance you'll be outta town for a few weeks so that i'll be able to borrow it? :wink: :mrgreen:
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"Reference amp is VAC Phi 110/110 w/ Sylvania 6NS7 GTA "Chrome Top" driver tubes"
Glad to see a fellow VAC user (I use VAC Ren 30). Aside from NuForce discussion, do you use Sylvania chrome domes for all your 6SN7 slots? In my VAC, chrome domes were pretty much some of my least favorite 6SN7 tubes... In fact, with VAC's own stock 300B tubes, I preferred VAC's stock Chinese 6SN7's over chrome domes.
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BTW, how's the DCC2 coming along? Any chance you'll be outta town for a few weeks so that i'll be able to borrow it? :wink: :mrgreen:
I hate to admit to the hype, but the EMM labs gear is quite musical and down right smoooooth. Just toe tapping music, rhythm just flows and sounds very natural, It sounds better than the Dodson 218 fed via a modded SCD-777es that it replaced.
My Teres is delayed yet again, need to borrow my phono stage?
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BTW, how's the DCC2 coming along? Any chance you'll be outta town for a few weeks so that i'll be able to borrow it? :wink: :mrgreen:
I hate to admit to the hype, but the EMM labs gear is quite musical and down right smoooooth. Just toe tapping music, rhythm just flows and sounds very natural, It sounds better than the Dodson 218 fed via a modded SCD-777es that it replaced.
My Teres is delayed yet again, need to borrow my phono stage?
I heard the full blown EMM Labs gear feading VAC PHI 220 Mono amps which were powering Vandy 5A's and it was downright magical. A few well recorded tracks actually gave me goosebumps and made me feel like a "newbie".
Wish I could swing such a killer digital front end. Oh well, guess I will have to "suffer" with the TacT + EA Sony S-7700...
George
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I believe tvad4 listened to the 75 watt versions with stock power cords....correct? The 75 watter has a different power supply, which would make the sound different (since all parts in a switching supply will affect the sound the same as a linear supply). Also the main board is slightly different with mostly the same parts but one part in particular stands out as something that would make the 75 watter not as good. This might account for the difference noticed by some in highs along with using the stock power cords. I would never call the stock 100 watters bright or edgy....however, I never listened to the stock power cords. Of course, then you have the modded 100 watters as the third variety and I will shortly have level 2. It is really kind of funny that we are comparing a $1600 list product with $10,000 tube amps and $7500 Roland amps. It seems to me the difference mentioned by the Roland amp user sounds less than how I would describe level one mods difference. I have the feeling the level one modded Nuforce would be as good if not better than the Roland. This is exciting stuff. I cannot wait to do level 2 to see how much more can be achieved. For those waiting for amps, Nuforce just emailed me that they won't be shipping till the 25th now.
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BTW, how's the DCC2 coming along? Any chance you'll be outta town for a few weeks so that i'll be able to borrow it? :wink: :mrgreen:
I hate to admit to the hype, but the EMM labs gear is quite musical and down right smoooooth. Just toe tapping music, rhythm just flows and sounds very natural, It sounds better than the Dodson 218 fed via a modded SCD-777es that it replaced.
My Teres is delayed yet again, need to borrow my phono stage?
Did you ever get the Meitnerized transport in? I'm curious how much redbook sound changes between the super-upsampled signal from Meitnerized transport vs. unupsampled "regular" transport.
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Upgrade policy:
We continue to make improvement in our amps either within the same version or through the introduction of new products (like Ref 9). There are two upgrade path:
1. Trade in for higher end or higher power products. Yes, you can do that but until we introduce the new products, we can't decide on the trade in price. Many of you have experience interacting with us and can guess that we will offer good value for the money for trade in. We won't try to charge you arm and leg. But we also need to price it such that your dealers and us can make some decent profit too. The cost of the electronics might be low, but high end audio's volume is low and need a lot of R&D.
2. Circuit board replacement for the same version. 2006 version of Ref 8 will be better than 2005 version of Ref 8 for sure. As mention, we want to keep improving on our technology instead of selling the same old stuff. We plan to charge $200 per unit for complete circuit board replacement (labor included). We make minor improvement from time to time and when we feel that there is significant different between older version versus newer version, we'll make announcement.
So, enjoy your NuForce and don't go chase after every minor upgrade.
There were some 70W units that are in circulation but they should have the same circuit board as the 100W version.
HF issue. Some of you have the ear to pick up very high freq noise and NuForce has bandwidth into 50Khz at +/- 1db. HF is not as clean as we like. We will be announcing a patch next week to address this issue and significantly reduce RFI problem. For those of you with very sensitive ear or listen to FM at home, check out NuForce support section next Friday (May 28). We'll work with your dealer to provide the fix for free.
Unlike some other manufacturers :), we own the technology and have control of everything so you can count on us to keep innovating and provide upgrade for your products.
I hope this address some of the recent concerns or questions.
Jason
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looks like good news to me :)
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Upgrade policy:
We continue to make improvement in our amps either within the same version or through the introduction of new products (like Ref 9). There are two upgrade path:
1. Trade in for higher end or higher power products. Yes, you can do that but until we introduce the new products, we can't decide on the trade in price. Many of you have experience interacting with us and can guess that we will offer good value for the money for trade in. We won't try to charge you arm and leg. But we also need to ...
Hi Jason,
I suggest you guys get in touch with Rick Schultz. If his mods to your amps are as significant as he says, it would be to your benefit for the both of you to partner and thus make a better product. If you don't then you guys would be loosing out.
Ray Bronk
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Hi Jason,
I suggest you guys get in touch with Rick Schultz. If his mods to your amps are as significant as he says, it would be to your benefit for the both of you to partner and thus make a better product. If you don't then you guys would be loosing out.
Ray Bronk
Cough, cough.. Uh, I'm all for good mods, but it may be a bit um, impolite to suggest a manufacturer's finished product 'needs' mods by a third party, especially before comparing both..
Now, since Rick is in CA, if he wants to send us (that would be us SoCal Rage geeks) his modded Nuforce to say Cryotweaks (who has stock NuForce) or Mad Dog (who has a pair of Nuforce stock) and allow us to listen to both, we could know a little bit more..
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...if he wants to send us (that would be us SoCal Rage geeks) his modded Nuforce to say Cryotweaks (who has stock NuForce) or Mad Dog (who has a pair of Nuforce stock) and allow us to listen to both, we could know a little bit more...
good suggestion, Jon L.
as long as both Nuforce and Rick Schultz are not oppposed to this comparison, i'd be willing to host a listening session for members of the SoCalAudio Rage to compare the two and report back here w/ the differences.
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Cough, cough.. Uh, I'm all for good mods, but it may be a bit um, impolite to suggest a manufacturer's finished product 'needs' mods by a third party, especially before comparing both..
Now, since Rick is in CA, if he wants to send us (that would be us SoCal Rage geeks) his modded Nuforce to say Cryotweaks (who has stock NuForce) or Mad Dog (who has a pair of Nuforce stock) and allow us to listen to both, we could know a little bit more..
Hi, Well, I'm not the one saying that with the mods they'd be better. I just figured if they are truly better, than stock, that Nuforce ought to take an interest in it and maybe Rick and company could work together. Say a Level8 Plus.
Ray
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To mod or not to mod :).
No deny about it, NuForce Ref 8 is a first generation product, and there're areas for improvement. I heard about various mods and Ric have discussed with me about some of his ideas. Keep in mind that none of the people out there have access to the circuit diagram or understand the how it works. Therefore any mod is limited to replacing parts or add more shielding. Those are temporary fixes.
We prefer to make fundamental improvement in the circuit and layout.
And when we hit the limit of what our technology can do, then we can look into squeezing the last bit of performance. We're no where near that point yet :).
NuForce amp has incredibly high damping factor of 4000 at all frequencies and zero phase shift. We can't improve any further in this area. We pretty much reached the Holy Grail of damping factor and phase shift.
But there's a lot more we can do to reduce overall THD, especially at higher freq. And obviously do a much better job at reducing noise and RFI. We can also reduce some of the unwanted harmonics. To do all of that require circuit and layout changes.
We also need to make sure that we don't mess up the sound. All enhancements have to be incremental and carefully tested not only by us, but also by a few selected dealers and reviewers who will have early peak into what we are doing.
For now, we have to address the RFI problem that we're very embarassed about :oops: Even though we have already found a fix with the use of a common mode choke, we're trying to determine if a simpler solution can be found. We'll do more testing on Monday and will be ready to announce the patch by middle of the week.
Jason
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Well, it turns out that by reducing the RFI, we also slightly reduce THD+N by 0.01% (eg. THD reduced from 0.05% to 0.04% at 1khz, 40W into 8ohm). Your dealers should be receiving the parts by early next week and the "enhancement" is posted on NuForce website.
Jason
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are models shipping from the factory incorporating this choke on the outputs from now on or have you changed the boards for future revisions?
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Yes, units shipped after May 23 have the particular choke installed. Eventually the choke will be relocated to the PCB. We tested that whether the choke is located right on the PCB or at the backplane speaker terminals doesn't make any difference. From THD measurement, this choke actually helped to reduce distortion (can anyone tell the diff between 0.04% and 0.05%) but that's more of a side benefit. The main reason for the choke is to reduce 80 to 130 MHz high freq noise which affect FM reception.
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Nahh Ray I'm not laughing at you. I'm just saying what you said was funny b/c it might be the WORST thing they could do to their credibility as a high-end player.
Well, you're right if that is what they are doing. You go in to these stores and see receivers with a 2 grand price tag; and people plunk down the bucks. The purpose here is to get these amps out to the masses while there is still time to do so. I think we are unfortunately coming to a time in this nation when a $800 piece of gear will be a lot for most people. Look at the economy. That's a whole different thread.
I would strictly market these amps as a midFi level piece. I'd predict they could not keep them in stock. A lot of companies will make a piece that provides them with bread and butter, and then they have the capital to produce more goods. That's why I suggested the stereo version. If I had $1600, would probably get that or maybe the CI. Don't know. My system is sorta modest at the present time.
Ray
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Hi,
I don't mean to start a 'flame war' but why would they want to market the amps as midfi? They certainly don't sound midfi to my ears. I'm not saying they are the best amps available but they do beat my well reviewed ps audio hca - 2 (stock version) hands down. The hca - 2 sold for about $1700us originally.
Regards
Rod
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We have plan to go after high, mid and even low end products as we are vertically integrated with technology than can scale from IC to high power systems. But that will take time.
High end system is expensive because audiophiles demand a lot. The electronics are cheap but we have to invest in a lot of R&D. Every slight change in design and EVEN manufacturing or components selection affect the sound quality. Even a lose or lower quality connector increase the distortion. It is not realistic to expect that we can mass produce high end audio system at dirt cheap consumer prices. But we can narrow the gap.
Cost is relative. For NuForce Ref series, we have to use expensive parts and $1 here, $1 there and eventually they all add up.
Keep in mind that high end customer expects a lot of service and your poor dealer need to make a living. They have to set up listening room, let people borrow equipment home, spend a lot of time with you to mix and match equipment.
Power requirement is also a huge factor in determining the cost of the amplifier. It is very costly to produce a 2.5 lb, 100W rms (144W peak) at 8 ohm amp! This is the smallest and lightest and one of the best sounding amplifiers on the market. Check out the retail price of a 48V SMPS. Ref 9 will probably be weighing around 3 lb with 350Wrms and 900W peak. It is a monster amp in a tiny package and generate little heat. Ref 9 comes with a 60V 350W SMPS.
Supply and demand is obviously another determining factor. Either you make $100 to $500 product and hope to sell in huge quality (with little margin), or $2000 product where it is still affordable to more affluent consumers and provide sufficient profit for manufacturer and dealers to stay in business. Between $500 and $1500, it is a very tough area where the price is too high to attract enough demand, but too low to provide the margin needed to stay in business!
Jason
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We have plan to go after high, mid and even low end products as we are vertically integrated with technology than can scale from IC to high power systems. But that will take time.
High end system is expensive because audiophiles demand a lot. The electronics are cheap but we have to invest in a lot of R&D. Every slight change in design and EVEN manufacturing or components selection affect the sound quality. Even a lose or lower quality connector increase the distortion. It is not realistic to expect that ...
Hi Jason,
Well, the $500 to $1500 tough price point. That's why I suggested the stereo version. With the stereo version, you're probably talking about $800 to $900 depending on case and supply. I figure once you have your preampt out, then you can figure out how to scale back to meet the pricepoint. All I was saying is it would give you more capital bread and butter to work with.
Rick is a pretty smart guy, and if any of his ideas are night and day differences, well, then you ought to use them, if he's willing to do so.
Other than the interference issue, is there any difference in sound with or without the choke in the output?
Ray
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Since THD is lowered by 0.01% overall with the choke installed, a few people might be able to tell that it sounded better. Casey, our in-house audiophile said it sounded smoother all around (less harsh at high-freq), but the improvement is too subtle. Oh, it won't get worst that's for sure.
For those adventurous DIY people, you can remove the choke, strip out the copper wire, and re-route your favrite internal speaker wires around the core to form an integrated common mode choke with the speaker wires. Litz wire around the core works best. This is not meant for the amature and unless you know what you're doing, don't try it. We don't want to fix it for you :). You have to make sure that you wind the speaker wires around the core EXACTLY like the common mode choke. If you mess it up, you either cross the polarity of the terminals, make the wrong number of turns, or wrong winding. And it will probably sound horrible.
So, don't go mess up a good thing :nono:
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Hi.
Denmarks calling.
I AM STUNNED BY NUFORCE. One of the best sounding amps, i had ever heard!!! Lots of attack, sweetness, and the SIZE of the soundstage is just unbelieveble!!!!!
See you in the new audio world of Class-N
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i told you :)
wait till it breaks in!
also get a proper power cord!!
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Congrats Mr. High Fy. Let us spread the word. Godspeed.
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Congrats Mr. High Fy. Let us spread the word. Godspeed.
Word up :D
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I've been lurking, following this thread with interest since its beginning. On the basis of the raves about the NuForce monos, I sampled a pair over a week, along with a Bel Canto EVo200.2.
I wanted to believe, good folks, believe me - I did! Who wouldn't want the sort of magical results folk like Werticus and co keep insisting, over and over and over again, that the NuForce's deliver at a bargain basement price?
Well, initially, influenced by all the hype, I was impressed, but as time went by I began to sober up and really LISTEN, not through my expectations, not through the hyperbole, but through my ears, critically, objectively. The bass is not bad at all, but I began to notice that the NFs exaggerate percussion, that the hi frequencies are bright and cheap, that the imagery was wide but somehow blurred compared with higher-end amps, that many of my CDs that are not recent and not brilliantly produced were, well, just plain boring with the NFs. And for volume freaks - leave the NFs well alone. Every time I tried to pump up the volume for some serious rockin', they ran out of grunt way too soon, and the sound became blary and unpleasant. These are NOT hard rock speakers, and I state that categorically.
I have to say, now that the fog has cleared, I do not think there is any comparison between the Bel Canto and the NF monos - the Bel Canto is way superior...that is, if clean, accurate musical sound that doesn't go to pieces under decent volume is what you're after (although the BC doesn't take a lot of pushing without showing some strain, either). And as for all this nonsense about the NFs killing high-end amps 10x the price - gimme a break! I had an extensive direct comparison listening between the BC and a 15K Krell, and the Krell won without question, especially at volume. Don't ask me for specs on the Krell, or model numbers - I don't know. It was at a friend's place, and since the Krell is way out of my price range, I didn't bother to take notes. I only know what I heard.
Now, if the Krell cut the excellent BC back to size, and the BC is inferior to the later Gen11 BCs, as I believe is the case, and the BC EVo200.2 walked all over the NFs, then my conclusion from this very small database of amps is that the NF does NOT qualify as the giant killer that some earnest folk here are trying to convince themselves it is. Sadly, exactly as I suspected.
Don't get me wrong - I thought the NFs were reasonable enough, and good value (not exceptional) for the price, but the earth did NOT move for me and I think we have here yet another example of audiophile-mania...so many so-called audiophiles are on a constant quest in search of the hifi holy grail, and when they think they've stumbled on to something special before the masses catch on, the whole matter becomes an issue of self-esteem, which colours perception and fuels delusion/illusion. Hence the constant harping from folk like werticus about how good the NFs are.
There was no doubt after the first 3 or 4 such posts as to how this good chap felt about his new toys - one wonders what explanation other than the one I have just postulated would adequately account for the next 15 - 20 almost identical posts from the same source? We got the point after the first couple! Noteworthy, also, that the raves about the 70w NFs were as over the top and indiscriminate as the subsequent ones about the 100watters - so why make the decision to change up to the 100W NFs when the 70watters were already at the upper levels of hifi nirvana?
I sometimes wonder whether some of these audiophile ravers would pick the difference between widely variant componentry in a blindfold test...ditto between "burnt in" NFs and others straight out of the box, and between the 75 and 100 watters. So much of this stuff is just taught observation (a bit like winetasting). Nudge nudge - erm, how about listening to da MUSIC instead of talking da audio talk? Or doesn't that count next to spec-speak?
Sorry - but ya can only take so many of these smug smileys (how I HATE smileys!) and affirmations/reaffirmations/re-reaffirmations that don't actually amount to anything but an unqualified outpouring of superlatives and a mantra of reminders that "I was 'ere first".
I am watching on keenly to see what sort of developments NF comes up with in the future. I have absolutely nothing against this company, and wish them well - and I mean it. Once they get it right - really right - I'll be singing their praises with the best of them, especially if they can keep the price down. Until then, I'm saving for a Bel Canto eVo2i Gen 11. That's as cheap as I've come across for genuine quality amplification (and unfortunately it's nearly 3x the price of the NF100s, though well under the likes of the Krell I mentioned earlier).
Don't suppose this post will make me any new buddies, but I would have exploded if I'd suffered through any more smileys and superlatives without speaking my piece!
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edited
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"These are NOT hard rock speakers, and I state that categorically." - I meant that the NF monoblocks are not hard rock amps - dunno where "speakers" came from. Apologies!
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Hi loose - welcome to AC!
A few questions that provide critical background for any review:
- Did you sample the amps in your own system, or one you were very familiar with?
- What other components were in the chain (including cabling)?
- How well was the room treated?
- What kind of music were you using to audition?[/list:u]
Thanks!
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I stand by what I said:
the nuforce amps are better than the belcanto's
they make the belcanto sound slow.
the upper registers are much the same.
I felt the same as you did loose when I FIRST head the amp... I thought - 'no way is this nuforce as god as the bel canto'
later, after some a/b I realised the nuforce was actually a more accurate representation of the sound - a more 'live' sound than the belcanto.
Dont get me wrong I love the belcanto, and I could afford one of those too, money isnt an issue here for me. I feel the nuforce is more interesting to listen to, and on my 89db speakers drives them far louder than I need. I'm refering to the 70w's the 100ws I am yet to receive... I ordered them because the bass was warmer than the 70ws.
I reallly dont know where your getting this "bright and cheap" from with regards to the highs - I just cannot hear it like that at all. And it would seem there are quiet a few people saying this of late, whenever someone has a fault to pick with these amps its always bright and cheap, makes me think something is wrong/ setup wrong/ mismatching your setup etc.
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Loose,
Hats off to you for feeling that you can state your experience and your truth and the objective way you separated that from emotion.
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It's not surprising that some people are liking NF better than others b/c that's ALWAYS the case with any gear. But let's put things in perspective.
NF 100 watters are legitimate contenders in say <$5000 amp market, and I can't think of another $1600 MSRP amp I'd rather own. Forget about the giant-killer 10x price hyperbole, but credit is due to NF for an excellent design at reasonable cost that enriches our audio community. A very musical and satisfying system can be assembled around these diminutive monoblocks for sure. So what if Amp A or B sounds better to some people in some systems?
BTW, Krell makes some excellent amps in recent years, some of the best SS amps really. There's no shame in "losing" to the big Krells!
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Hi,
I was the person who initially started this thread because i wanted to inform audiophiles of a product which i believe was excellent value and a cheaper alternative to ridiculously priced high end products.
Loose,
I actually don't own a pair of nuforce amplifiers but may do so in the future. I don't claim to have the best ears in the world but i have been into hifi for many years and have listened to a lot of high end systems over the years. My experience is opposite to yours and perhaps the system you listened to wasn't up to the task.
The system i heard the nuforce 70 watt amp was the following:
Bel canto cdp
Bel Canto pre
Bel canto evo 2 gen 2 monoblocks
War audio reference 1's (using raven 1 ribbon tweeter, accuton midrange and cabasse bass driver in a floorstander box)
luminious speakre and ic cabling.
To my ears the nuforce is in the league of the evo 2 gen 2 monoblocks, i find when i listen to the bc amps after about 10 minutes i feel bored with the sound. The top end is refined the midrange is very transparent and the bass is excellent definition, unfortunately it just doesn't grab my attention. I have also extensively listened to the bel canto 200.2 over the years and i agree they don't sound as good as the evo gen 2 amps do.
The nuforce amps appear to do everything the bc evo gen 2 amps can do but i don't get bored after 10 minutes and i like the sound of the amps.
I respect your point of view and it was great that you provided your own personal opinions of the amp. But i don't think your comments regarding Werticus were necessary :!: .
You should have a read of the comments by Pat O'brien of war audio (on the nuforce site) regarding the nuforce amps. He is also a dealer for the bel canto range of products and has nothing to gain from raving about the nuforce amps as it is in his best interest to sell more bc products.
Is every audiophile going to like the sound of the nuforce amp? Probably not because many audiophiles have different sonic preferences and that is the best reason to actually hear these products in your own system and make up your own mind.
Regards
Rod
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Ok I'm the guy behind WAR Audio. I'v been in Bussiness since 1990
I think I have some sort of experiance in Audio and always try to get products that could match the best in the bussiness without the MBS and
extreem cost. I try not to engage in discussion forums (read them when
have time)as there is lots of different opnions. Loose I guess You are
Ross I remember you listening to NF 75s when you played one of your
non audiophile rock recordings @war it never sounded over bright
in fact your comment was thats the best you have ever heard.
Also I may Point out to you and all Your friend also my friend Loyd
who said BC was crap and wrote a thread on Appogee site that
the BC was bright and thin six months later same amp second time listen with different f/end it's one of the best and he bought one.
so be carefull if you pop in I can demo the two camps BC/NF
I love the BC but if you want the best NF is superior in every respect
including the power delivery. Of course you have to have frontend thats capable of the same level.If you would have had the HALCRO DM68 in place of nuforce in yours or Loyds place results would have been the same
beleive me I have compared with the halcro in a system thats around
A$250,000.00 we have both agreed NF's are as good as HAlCROs
proof is in the pudding he did not hesitate to buy a pair. another instant
I had Rob woodland from Eichmann technologys listen to NF in Queensland
he could not beleive how it trounce the setup we installed in all night all kept saying is what an amplifier this form A CARY 300b valve guy
SO loose before you make rash comments please take each situation
in it's own merrit. since then I have replace my IC with INDRA without
doubt these are the best IC i'v heard not heard Period. a$8000.00 PAIR
BLOODY ESPENSIVE BUT THATS LIFE
Best Regards
Pat
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Thanks for your responses, folks. I appreciate it that no one saw fit to seriously flame me for having a different take on the NFs - although I do think there's some defensiveness in the replies of some of the NF apologists. To be expected when people have their emotions and self-esteem caught up in their stated positions, as I believe could be the case in some instances. On the other hand, different ears hear different things and one man's audio utopia might well be another's yawn.
I won't go into vast detail on my componentry, cables etc, as I know I have a respectable system that is well capable of showing up the qualities of quality amps - good and not so good. eg: B&W CDM9NT speakers, quality Marantz CD player (can't recall model number, but it was around $800 and to my ears is excellent...many notches up on the run of the mill Sony it replaced). So, not up there with the best, but pretty good gear and well sufficient for the purposes of comparing amps. And yes, this is my system, I know it well, and the CDs I listened to covered a wide generic range, from hard rock to folky to classical to jazz and in between (rock is my love, though, and that's where I concentrated - 60s to current). I found the NFs were good on quieter stuff with not too much happening at once, but fell down when the sound became denser and as I mentioned before, were simply weak with hard rock, actually quite unpleasant and glarey at volume.
Re Werticus's comment: "I reallly dont know where your getting this "bright and cheap" from with regards to the highs - I just cannot hear it like that at all. And it would seem there are quiet a few people saying this of late, whenever someone has a fault to pick with these amps its always bright and cheap, makes me think something is wrong/ setup wrong/ mismatching your setup etc."
Firstly, I can tell you exactly where I'm getting this "bright and cheap" from - my own ears! I have not seen anyone else making such comments (but if you say they are, I can only take some assurance from that - it's nice to know you're not alone), and I do not take my cue from industry "experts", dealers etc. I can assure you there is nothing "wrong" with my system. I am wondering, to be frank, whether you have projected your own way of drawing conclusions about equipment in this comment of yours, which implies that my opinion is secondhand or borrowed. Not the case.
Now Werticus, exactly what do YOU mean by your claim that the NFs made the BCs sound "slow"? I note that one of your constant superlatives re the NFs is that they are incredibly "fast". It so happens that this same adjective is one that is bandied about on the earliest reviews of the NFs and that dealers inevitably use. Coincidence, or, as I postulated previously, are you falling into the trap of regurgitating learned response?
I know I am sounding harsh here, but I honestly believe that many audiophiles fall into this trap. It's called truth by agreement and is the enemy of objectivity (goes right back to the flat earth days...those scientists of yore were not stupid, but this truism prevented them from "seeing" the truth until someone was prepared to speak to his own observations that calculations did not add up and be branded a heretic...in time, others "saw" and a new truth was born - again by agreement, but this time supported by real evidence).
There is no point in my restating my opinion that from my week of listening experience the BCs were tangibly and obviously superior to the NFs in producing good, accurate, clear, "musical" sound, and better keeping their dignity under volume pressure, then adding this or that observation to strengthen my argument. Why? Because I'm not interested in winning an argument!
You're entitled to your opinion, Werticus, as is Rocket and others who are extolling the virtues they think they hear in the NFs. To my ears, the superiority of the BCs is obvious - and this is my considered opinion after a week of comparisons on my own system at home, listening to a swag of music of varying styles I know well - so where do you go from there?
I WANTED to love the NFs. I DON'T WANT to spend 3 times more on the BCs. However, above all, I want a quality system at an affordable price that does justice to the music I love, and at the moment, my experience is that the BC gets far closer to delivering what I want than the NFs. Better clarity in a wide range of music, less colouration, equally good bass (neither amp is brilliant), smoother, better imagery, and all in all, simply better able to reproduce an authentic musical experience. I just can't articulate it any better than that.
I am interested in Jason's (of NF) acknowledgement that they have areas they need to improve, and that they are committed to doing so. I look forward to future models, because if NF can get it right at a good price, I'll be queueing up. All I'm saying is that they haven't got it right yet, and this is not being reflected in all the hyperbole that's being thrown about. Always for me, listening is believing, and that's all I've based my comments on. I don't talk the talk cos I don't know the language of hifi and it doesn't interest me to learn it. This doesn't mean I don't have a good set of discriminating ears, though. Neither does it mean I'm a babe in the hifi woods. I've had an avid interest in sound equipment since the 70s, and have been through my share of chopping and changing. I do not have the funds to get the best, but I know others who do and have hitched many a listening ride on their better listening vehicles.
That's sounding like I'm now defending myself and trying to establish my own cred - ah well, we're all slaves of ego. The trick is to recognise it in its many deceptive guises! But that is another story...
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Loose you diid not directly reply to the points I made all amps have weaknesses otherwise there will be only one amp on the market.
as I said in my last thread it can't be at one instant it's the best you
have heard another thin and over bright all thats showing is the different
systems @ work One major issue with NF that is been looked at is
SMPS thats been used can put some hash back in to the systems with preamps less than perfect that could create what you experiancing @your place Power cable thats capable of ridding this hash is paramount. Werticus was of the same opnion as you are when he heard the NF as time and understanding
realised capability of NF also one thing NF has very wide bandwidth
so if there is hf hash it will amplfi.I took on NF not because it's cheap
but of it's Performance.
BR
Pat
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pat@war
I'm surprised at such a response, and a bit disappointed.
I don't know why you would seek to personalise this debate. I am not going to comment on my identity, whether I know you or your shop, or my other contacts - that's why we have nicknames isn't it? - but I would ask you not to go making the sorts of assumptions you have in your post. And assumptions are all they are!
That said, I have no way of commenting on your findings re the NFs and who thought what, front ends etc. I can only speak my truth, and that's what I've done. I can say, unconditionally, that I have never been impressed with what the NFs do to hard rock, even from my earliest auditioning.
Personalities and identities are not the issue here. And neither, as far as I'm concerned, is trying to 'prove' one's status as a critic. You may be a dealer with many years experience, but that does not invalidate the opinions of others, or elevate your opinion to "truth." Not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.
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Re: " it can't be at one instant it's the best you
have heard another thin and over bright all thats showing is the different
systems @ work"
No, it can't and it's not! You are confusing me with someone else. Challenge me, by all means, but only on the real evidence - my words within this forum.
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Losse you sounded to me like Ross in Perth if you not I appolagize
nevertherless I stand by what I said it all can be system depended
by the way where are you Aus or US
Br
Pat
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pat@war
I'm surprised at such a response, and a bit disappointed.
I don't know why you would seek to personalise this debate. I am not going to comment on my identity, whether I know you or your shop, or my other contacts - that's why we have nicknames isn't it? - but I would ask you not to go making the sorts of assumptions you have in your post. And assumptions are all they are!
That said, I have no way of commenting on your findings re the NFs and who thought what, front ends etc. ...
Hi Loose and others,
Now Let's see if we can bring this thread in to perspective. If you go over and read the reviews about the CI dm100? sorry if I don't have the model correct, but it is the same price point as the NuForce amp. If you read that review, it too has some glowing reports. I'd like to se the two compared. CI attacks the problem a little differently, but it too is an excellent product for the money. I think we need to put this Nuforce in to its perspective. Is it a giant killer? Well, maybe, with the right frontend, cabling and the proper source, and then again can you really hear a damping factor of 4K? Let's all just cool the jets, and see what Nuforce does with its product. This whole thing reminds me of the Norh amp. It's not a bad piece, but not the best. So Loose you do make some valid points. I'll just wait this out and see what happens with Nuforce. They do have a promising future. If our economy can hold out, then we all can get one.
Ray
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One major issue with NuForce is that to get the best sound out of it, matching with the right equipment is very important. And that is a challenge that we plan to address in the future. It needs a very good ground throughout the entire system. It picks up noise from other older or lower quality source. Its 100Wrms power supply is not quite sufficient to drive low efficiency speakers. Its high freq imaging could need some improvement but not everyone can pick it up.
I am sure every amp out there has more than one person who doesn't like it. So lets just let opinion be what it is. I am glad that we have some very loyal fans who jump in and state their opinion. But lets not trash Loose. May be by the time he save up enough to buy the BC, he might consider NuForce Ref 9, which will have 350Wrms with 576 peak at 4 ohm.
I am not going to retort Loose comment except one point that he made is incorrect: the favorable opinion of NuForce is NOT just expressed by a few overly enthusiastic fans. Some statistic to back up my point. Since we shipped the first product in Feb, 2005, within 3 1/2 months, we have dealers and distributors in 17 countries (added France and Turkey this week). We have customers all over the world and received many feedback from them. Several editorial reviews are coming out too. So there is sufficient data that we can draw on to say that NuForce is highly regarded by many knowledgable audiophiles! Some of these individuals have spent many years in the audio business.
Like many of you said, lets put things in perspective. NuForce amp has some challenges it need to overcome. But it is a serious amp that anyone should at least give it a try to audition ;). Not everyone will walk away thinking it is great. But if many do, we're happy. And we WANT TO hear why you don't like it and if we can correlate with what we can do to improve it, we will.
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What i like about the nuforce is that it expanded what I listen to. I listen only to analog and mostly rock and jazz. Before I would listen to only a few albums that sounded good. Now I am going through my 2000 albums(all pre-1983). I guess I'm the only one that is driven crazy by digital.
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I appreciate your response, Jason (or whoever posted from NuForce) and I applaud your balanced, professional stance. Yours is the sort of response I respect, because you are not hog-tied by your emotions or hostage to ego or self-esteem. You have - very honestly and I would say generously, given your position as a company insider - acknowledged the possible HF shortcomings with the current NuForce amps that I mentioned, and rightly pointed out that the accolades NuForce has been receiving are not just from a few zealots on this forum. I thank you for your professionalism and frankness.
And yes, I might well become one of the converts when your Ref9s come out! If you can address the power and high frequency issues, as I am confident you will in time, I will be one of the first in line. Just one little addendum, though - I was listening through fairly efficient speakers (90DB).
Anyway, I find your openness to constructive criticism from interested members of the public of perceived shortcomings and your view of such as an opportunity to improve your already creditable product mighty refreshing indeed. If everyone could receive an honest appraisal as a contribution rather than an affront, as you have, it would open the door to some powerful communication and productive developments all round - personal and technical! Thank you.
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My system is not a "million dollar" setup. Furthermore im using an old Luxman C-03 preamp, and i belive its from 1988.. Before the NUforce, i owned a Accuphase 211, and that was a great amp. But i was nothing next to the NUforce, and this old preamp. The only thing that borthers me, is a very loud white noise from my speakers, when NUforce is running.
Im not a pro, simply a dane with passion for music and hifi. I heard some VERY expensive setups through my life, and compared with one of theese hilarious priced amps, thats out there, the NUforce has NOTHING to be ashamed of!!!!
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And, i might add, i have tried NUforce on a cheaper setup than mine, and that worked very well. That was a setup with a Luxman L-11 intergreted amp from 1979 (used as preamp only) , standard kables, and some tiny Rega Ela speakers. Wow it rocked!! Considering............
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High Fi,
Great your getting the results you have the model with CMC mod which
took care of lot of the hash issue.
also Suggest to run dedicated earth as oppose to dedicated line
New earth stake in ground at least 1.2mtre deep wet possition if possible
run wire direct to your power board this will give you better results.
BR
Pat
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....fell down when the sound became denser and as I mentioned before, were simply weak with hard rock, actually quite unpleasant and glarey at volume.
This is the exact opposite of my experience - the nuforce was a very strong performer and clearly separated sound stage, and crystal clear to clipping!
Try not to be offended but I would put it to you that the rest of your system isnt really up the the level of the nuforce. Because the nuforce is passing your signal through so undistorted its probably showing up your source.
...I postulated previously, are you falling into the trap of regurgitating learned response?
No, I heard the nuforce before anyone else, aside from pat, and all he said was 'listen to this'.
I would question that your amp may not have been broken in? they go from sounding okay, to sounding terrible to sounding better and then finally awesome.
can you really hear a damping factor of 4K?
I think you can definatly hear this more than a lot of factors, that make nuforce great. Then again I have a cabasse woofer, something that can keep up.
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I appreciate your response, Jason (or whoever posted from NuForce) and I applaud your balanced, professional stance. Yours is the sort of response I respect, because you are not hog-tied by your emotions or hostage to ego or self-esteem. You have - very honestly and I would say generously, given your position as a company insider - acknowledged the possible HF shortcomings with the current NuForce amps that I mentioned, and rightly pointed out that the accolades NuForce has been receiving are not just fro ...
Loose, I entirely disagree with the way you present almost any of your arguments. I am sure the Nufurce guy is very pleased of your applauds, but reading your n'th post I could NOT help but say to you: what are you talking about ? music IS INDEED about EMOTIONS.
In general I don't even understand why you keep defending your position, on and on, while most here have simply accepted your input (some probably appreciated another opinion). that is it. thank you !
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Don't listen to all the naysayers. If you haven't been involved in audio for awhile, these things are the real deal. "the sky is falling, the glass is half-empty, etc." Beg, borrow, steal-get money for this amp. By the way, I don't recommend cd's, even though with this amp they sound almost as if I could live with them.
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WerTicus Wrote
I would question that your amp may not have been broken in? they go from sounding okay, to sounding terrible to sounding better and then finally awesome.
How long does a pair take to completely break in?
:o
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Hi,
Just because 'loose' didn't like the sound of the nuforce amp doesn't mean it wasn't broken in. I have been involved in hifi (i'm still learning what i like) and he probably prefers a different sound than many of the posters who like the nuforce amplifier.
The best thing to do is have a listen to one in your own system and not believe reviewers or what people like myself recommend. Use reviews as a guide only imo.
Regards
Rod
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Tvad4, Rocket,
Good advice. There is always a herd mentality (and a heard mentality too, I guess), which is fine. Excited people are forming a community of opinion. But we all know that audio is great at hyperbole, and that it is fun too (we all encourage it). If you are looking for long-term satisfaction with a piece of gear, however, it it worth the time to take some time to make a decision, and always based upon your system and your ears.
What is interesting to me is that NF is a company that cares about offering the best they can and are making an effort to honor early adopters by giving them an upgrade path. Sounds like a good company with good business sense. And it is pretty gutsy to have a forum where they openly admit when something is being improved.
Will this amp satisfy everyone? Just look at the number of kinds of cereal, or soap.
This is a great thread. I hope the excitement continues.
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How long does a pair take to completely break in?
~45 hrs
thats teh hump anyways
i just took delivery of my 100wat balanced nuforces btw... at about 5 hrs now. and they sound really good :)
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AC Grounding and Pre-amp compatibility problem update:
Brief problem background:
Some homes (especially in Europe) have no AC ground and that create loud white noise (huming, hissing). Even if it has AC ground, but in Europe with those two pins plug, there is no standard which pin is referenced to ground (flip the plug and see if the noise goes away)
Some pre-amps connect its signal and chassis ground together (not suppose to do that) and also create loud noise for NuForce.
If you're one of these users, contact your dealers or support@nuforce.com directly (please mention where you bought the amp). We came up with a simple modification on the RCA input that should fix the problem and is working on a kit to send out next week.
The side effect of this mod is that it reduces THD by another 0.01%.
Note: this latest modification should fix BOTH "no ac ground" and "preamp grounding loop" problems.
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AC Grounding and Pre-amp compatibility problem update:
Brief problem background:
Some homes (especially in Europe) have no AC ground and that create loud white noise (huming, hissing). Even if it has AC ground, but in Europe with those two pins plug, there is no standard which pin is referenced to ground (flip the plug and see if the noise goes away)
Some pre-amps connect its signal and chassis ground together (not suppose to do that) and also create loud noise for NuForce.
If you're one of ...
Sounds good!
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AC Grounding and Pre-amp compatibility problem update:
Brief problem background:
Some homes (especially in Europe) have no AC ground and that create loud white noise (huming, hissing). Even if it has AC ground, but in Europe with those two pins plug, there is no standard which pin is referenced to ground (flip the plug and see if the noise goes away)
Some pre-amps connect its signal and chassis ground together (not suppose to do that) and also create loud noise for NuForce.
If you're one of ...
Are we talking one week, two weeks, or?? (before the MOD reaches Denmark)
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HELP!! Nuforce amp wiring problem.
Gentle People, After receiving my REF 8 Amps, I found that the two were wired differently! On one of the amps, the ground on the RCA input jack was sandwiched between the chassis and the plastic washer, effectively grounding the input to the chassis. on the other amp, the ground was floated from the chassis with the plastic washer between it and the chassis.
My question is which way is correct?
Kerry
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HELP!! Nuforce amp wiring problem.
Gentle People, After receiving my REF 8 Amps, I found that the two were wired differently! On one of the amps, the ground on the RCA input jack was sandwiched between the chassis and the plastic washer, effectively grounding the input to the chassis. on the other amp, the ground was floated from the chassis with the plastic washer between it and the chassis.
My question is which way is correct?
Kerry
The one with the washer is correct.
Brg,
Karsten
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Sorry is it "chassis--plastic washer--ground ring--nut" or "chassis--ground ring--plastic washer--nut"?
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HELP!! Nuforce amp wiring problem.
Gentle People, After receiving my REF 8 Amps, I found that the two were wired differently! On one of the amps, the ground on the RCA input jack was sandwiched between the chassis and the plastic washer, effectively grounding the input to the chassis. on the other amp, the ground was floated from the chassis with the plastic washer between it and the chassis.
My question is which way is correct?
Kerry
Hi Kerry,
"Some pre-amps connect its signal and chassis ground together (not suppose to do that) and also create loud noise for NuForce." Going by that quote from Nuforce, I would think the RCA connectors are floating. Another words, the ground is not touching the Case. Take a listen and see which one is quieter Whichever one is quieter, then set the other one up to be the same as the quieter piece.
Ray
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The plastic washer should be seperating the ground ring from the chassis.
chassis--plastic washer--ground ring--nut
The anodize alumium chassis is not conducting. But, this is a slip in manufacturing QA. If you can't do the switch yourself, please contact support@nuforce.com and we'll pay for your shipping.
Jason
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Mr High Fy and other groundless people :lol: , the mod kit should be out by mid next week and will reach most countries in 3 days.
Regardless, for serious audiophile, you should go put in a good ground.
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Mr High Fy and other groundless people :lol: , the mod kit should be out by mid next week and will reach most countries in 3 days.
Regardless, for serious audiophile, you should go put in a good ground.
So what does the "kit" or "mod" consist of?
Ray
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NuForce Reference 8 produces loud noise (hissing, humming) when used with certain preamps (or other source devices) that have one of the following problems: (1) Preamp chassis and signal grounds are connected; (2) AC input on the preamp is not grounded. This modification is ONLY required if you receive units before June 15 AND experience the above problem.
http://www.nuforce.com/support/F15HER3-preamp-grounding.htm
This modification will be incorporated into future shipment.
Note: The above problems only affect a few people so don't try to ask for the mod unless you really have incompatible source device or no AC ground.
For those who have NO AC ground in their system, this mod might help but you should still put in your AC ground! It doesn't cost much to install the ground rod and all your future switching audio devices will be happy. If you have PC at home, the switching power supply also generates a lot of noise and your AC around the whole house will get affected as the noise has nowhere to escape.
Jason
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NuForce Reference 8 produces loud noise (hissing, humming) when used with certain preamps (or other source devices) that have one of the following problems: (1) Preamp chassis and signal grounds are connected; (2) AC input on the preamp is not grounded. This modification is ONLY required if you receive units before June 15 AND experience the above problem.
http://www.nuforce.com/support/F15HER3-preamp-grounding.htm
This modification will be incorporated into future shipment.
Note: The above problems ...
MIGHT help :o MIGHT is not a word that pleases my ear. Why are you not sure it WILL help?
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I say it might help for people with NO AC GROUND because we are not 100% sure. The noise has to go somewhere! All switching devices are naturally noisy and there are more and more of these devices in the house. Some user have power strip with noise filtering and that helps.
It is also NOT SAFE to have high power electronics without AC ground.
Jason
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I say it might help for people with NO AC GROUND because we are not 100% sure.
Don't you think it appropriate to refrain from posting about your POTENTIAL fixes until you are sure?
The noise has to go somewhere! All switching devices are naturally noisy and there are more and more of these devices in the house. Some user have power strip with noise filtering and that helps.
The last place you want to dump noise is the power ground. Its already contaminated with crap, and you're proposing to fob that crap off to contaminate and compromise the performance of other components? Golly, even Jon Risch has rethought his advocacy of using Y caps to divert noise to ground. There is a reason the Universe has given us such things as CMCs and accross the line caps. No matter how many times you blame the other components, it does not hide the fact that your product has excessive leakage which would prevent it from getting UL, VDE, CSA or EU safety certification. The power ground is there for SAFETY in the event of a fault/short. Your 'design' already has a fault under normal operation. And the best you can come up with is use some POS powerstrip?
It is also NOT SAFE to have high power electronics without AC ground.
No, it is not safe to operate YOUR modest power electronics without a safety ground. Any 3 prong electonic equipment that meets safety standards does not shock someone if the ground is lifted (single fault).
Your amps may be the greatest thing since sliced bread for all I know. But until those obvious safety/leakage issures are FIXED, not hidden via the improper use of a mains ground, IMO you simply don't have a viable product. I'm amazed you'd even attempt to sell such a product in the EU which actually does enforce its regulations.
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The patch addresses preamp compatiblity issues in parts of the world that has 2-pin AC outlets. This has nothing to do with AC or DC voltage and safety but to address issues with Preamps that are not made by NuForce.
Ref8 is shipped as a 3-wire AC device, and passed FCC and CE as configured and to be used with 3-wire AC cord only.
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FCC certification deals with emi/rfi interference levels. Mains safety issues is what UL/CSA certification deals with.
If Nuforce got CE certification with a grounded mains connection, and actually bears that 'CE' on the back of the chassis as required by the 'CE Mark', I'm surprised. But much in this world surprises me.
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your product has excessive leakage which would prevent it from getting UL, VDE, CSA or EU safety certification.
Occam, I'm familiar (in a non-technical sense) with the UL and EU specs, but what bodies govern the VDE and CSA specs? (Google hints that VDE might be the German equivilant to the IEEE.)
Nuforce, are you currently pursuing certification with any of the above certifications?
Thanks!
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VDE is the German standards organization.
CE has largley superseded the individual national certification standards and permit a single harmonized standard to used in the fifteen member states of the European Union and Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.
CSA is the Canadian Standards Association.
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As I mentioned, we already passed FCC and CE. UL etc are not regulatory requirement. Oh, the tests cost close to $10K and took several weeks!
By the way, if the ground on NuForce amp is floated, there is 70V (on a 110V AC) on the chassis BUT the current is only 4 mA.
Jason
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woa I JUST noticed something about the nuforce that I never noticed before that might be interesting to some people on here.
I had just picked up and looked under the XLR nuforce and noticed the FCC and CE symbols there to check for occam, and then I realised that my WASHING MACHINE is on!
And there are no clicks and pops and other crap coming throught the line, which I know the washing machine sends out to the AC, and my old NEW amp used to send straight though.
This has something to do with the power supply?
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So are you saying that NuForce is able to shield the noise from the AC where your previous amp can't do ?
If I understand you correctly, then this is the benefit of both the switching power supply which regulate the power and the noise filtering that we have at the power input stage. I am not technical enough to explain further but if you can confirm my understanding, then I can check with our CTO.
Jason
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well when my washing machine is on clicks and pops of a rather loud and horrible nature come through the tweeters.
with my old amp
now they are just gone. it sounds perfectly normal even though the washing machine is going - and with 4 housemates this just solved one big problem :)
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well when my washing machine is on clicks and pops of a rather loud and horrible nature come through the tweeters.
with my old amp
now they are just gone. it sounds perfectly normal even though the washing machine is going - and with 4 housemates this just solved one big problem :)
Hi again. Hows it cooking?
What about the statement from you, regarding your NUforce.
As you properly know, im waiting for the "noisekiller" kit, but if i turn the volume up, i cant hear the noise, and then the music just floads out of the speakers, in the most dynamic and beautiful way.
Im gonna weep myself to death, if the noisekiller dont work!!!
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install a ground?
its simple - just put a copper steak two metres into the ground and hook that up to your gear.
cooking is good anyhow, im tempted to write my review now - but i know there is more breaking in to do :P
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install a ground?
its simple - just put a copper steak two metres into the ground and hook that up to your gear.
cooking is good anyhow, im tempted to write my review now - but i know there is more breaking in to do :P
Yeah, its surprising how much the sound is changing in the "burn in time"
I would go as far to say: You can´t really say NUforce does anything wrong, and if all the upgrades really works, this IS the holy hifi-grail.
Im sorry, i can´t hold it back, but when your never dreamed of EVER getting an amp. this good, and the same time beeing upsessed with audio equipment, your bound to loose your head :oops:
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If you do what you're suggesting, you might get ground loops between your house ground and your gear ground. This could cause hum. To prevent this, either hook everything up to the house ground (which, if you have a grounded system already in your house, it should be if you connect the ground to the ground in the panel), or connect the gear ground to the house ground using a small gauge wire. When I lived in a house with an ungrounded (in terms of no independent ground running to each outlet) system, I ran a separate ground wire from a grounded outlet I installed to the neutral bar in the panel, which was grounded to the ground outside using a copper rod.
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Hey WerTicus. What about the Ref. 8 review?
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you guys are really impatient. :)
i will START writing my review on wednesday, i feel its broken in now.
:P
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We were investigating noise problem with certain preamps and found out that some preamps violated the "star ground scheme" and normally it will not affect linear amp (not entire true) but cause trouble for high performance switching amp such as NuForce. To proof our point, after we corrected the grounding error of a cheap (unfortunately discontinued) Cambridge preamp, its THD went down from 0.5% to 0.003%!!! And it sounded very good. All we did was to remove to incorrect ground wires.
For the details, see
http://www.nuforce.com/support/recommendations.htm
Better hurry, there are still a few of those used preamps out there :wink:
Jason & Casey
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I created a new topic under Critic Circule
"Improving Preamps By Fixing Grounding Errors". If you discover such error with your preamp, please discuss it there. We can also post all the solutions there with pictures. Casey is our audiophile and grounding expert. We were amazed by the performance improvement on that cheap preamp.
Jason
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Correction: THD improvement is from 0.05% to 0.003%
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you guys are really impatient. :)
i will START writing my review on wednesday, i feel its broken in now.
:P
Is it allright to be impatient with the review by now??
:D :hyper: :notworthy:
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I managed to blow up one of my Nuforce 8b amps. I stopped by and told them it could be my fault. I said e-mail me when I could pick it up and how much it would cost. They said what are you doing now? They said that if you wait 30 minutes they would have it fixed with no cost. What are you guys waiting for? Have you heard of this? They will have at least two reviews coming online in July.
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mmakshak :
I managed to blow up one of my Nuforce 8b amps...
[/list:u]How did this happen....???? :? [/list:u]
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I have submitted a review to Nuforce, but I don't know how to space it properly for the internet. Can someone help me out here? I will post it here and elsewhere if you can help me.
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How slow this is going :roll:
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Hey folks,
I had the pleasure of auditioning the Nuforce monoblocks over the last couple weeks. Mike from Tweek Geeks also included a pair of Z-cable "red Lightning" AC cables. I had been using a VAC PA-100/100 (100 WPC) tube amp and also received my Dodd 120W tube monoblocks while I still had the Nuforce amps. The rest of systems includes Soliloquy 6.2 speakers, JJ Electronics preamp, Nottingham/Bluenote/Benz analog rig, and Stan Warren modified Philips SACD1000 digital source.
I was never real enamored with the VAC amp. It sounded nice at low-mid volumes with a lush midrange and sweet highs, but was lacking in detail and wouldn't play real loud, at least in my system. When I installed the Nuforce, all that changed. I now had great detail, tight bass and extended highs with the music emerging from a pitch black background. I could crank the music as loud as I needed it (~90db), and everything held together beautifully. The overall tonal balance was leaner and more accurate than the VAC, which sounded fuzzy by comparison. I had lost a bit of that old tube magic, but that tradeoff was far outweighed by positive changes. I still had nice 3-D soundstage and very good imaging.
A week or so into the audition, the Dodd monoblocks arrived and I eagerly put them in the system using the Z-cable AC cables. After a few hours of warm up (Gary runs them for 100 hours before shipping), I started to listen to assorted favorite tracks to compare to the Nu Force amps. I found that the tube magic was back, but in a much more controlled way than the VAC amp - nothing fuzzy here. They had total control of the drivers at low and high volume with extended highs, tuneful bass (for my speakers), and a beautiful midrange. Also, the soundstage was HUGE - wide and deep - and the imaging is palpable. Needless to say, I'm a happy camper with the Dodd amps. The Nuforce amps had a tighter sound, slightly better bass control, and were super quiet, but the Dodd amps have me more excited to listen to music and that's what counts, at least for me. Interestingly, when I had to send the Nu Force amps back, the Z-cable AC cables also went. I put the cheapo AC cables on the Dodds and they lost a bit of their soundstage. So, I now have an order in with Mike for new AC cables!!
All in all the Nu Force amps were great, and I would take them in a second over the VAC amp, which retailed for twice as much. The Dodd amps are now only sold through retail and cost three times as much, so the Nuforce amps are clear value winner.
Thanks to Mike for the audition and happy listening to everyone who ends up in the Nu Force camp.
Beez
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Hmm, if you haven't commited to the Dodd, you should compare it with NuForce Reference 9 (shipping 1st week of August). At $2500 a pair for 300Wrms at 4 ohm, it is a force to be reckon with. THD+N at 10K, 50W, 8 ohm is 0.07%. 1K it is at 0.025%. We will be offering multi-units bundle pricing (existing NuForce owners can take advantage of the special bundle price by paying the difference) for 5 Ref 8s or 3 Ref 9s and 2 Ref 8s. Announcement will come after 4th of July holiday. Ideal setup for serious stereo and multi-channel use.
Jason
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Hmm, if you haven't commited to the Dodd, you should compare it with NuForce Reference 9 (shipping 1st week of August). At $2500 a pair for 300Wrms at 4 ohm, it is a force to be reckon with. THD+N at 10K, 50W, 8 ohm is 0.07%. 1K it is at 0.025%. We will be offering multi-units bundle pricing (existing NuForce owners can take advantage of the special bundle price by paying the difference) for 5 Ref 8s or 3 Ref 9s and 2 Ref 8s. Announcement will come after 4th of July holiday. Ideal setup for serious stereo and multi-channel use.
Jason
Hey Jason, what is the wattage with 8 ohms?
Ray
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The Dodds cost what 6000 bucks versus Nuforce 2000 or less? For some people, this is important.
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The Dodds cost what 6000 bucks versus Nuforce 2000 or less? For some people, this is important.
Retail on the Dodd 120 watt monblocks is $5,200. for the pair. He recently offered a group buy for the folks here at the Audio Circle and sold a bunch of them for below dealer cost at $2,000. for the pair.
Looks like that deal was $500. cheaper than the NuForce Reference 9. I think about 20 lucky people took advantage of that deal.
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Quote:
The Dodds cost what 6000 bucks versus Nuforce 2000 or less? For some people, this is important.
Retail on the Dodd 120 watt monblocks is $5,200. for the pair. He recently offered a group buy for the folks here at the Audio Circle and sold a bunch of them for below dealer cost at $2,000. for the pair.
Looks like that deal was $500. cheaper than the NuForce Reference 9. I think about 20 lucky people took advantage of that deal.
I was one of those lucky 20, so for me the comparison was pretty straight up. I did write in my previous post that the Dodds are now 3X the Nuforce amps I auditioned.
Beez
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Doing a deal like that here would seriously undercut the dealers (and you bet a lot of them participated or read audiocircle). Obviously I am not sure about the Dodd amp circumstances (may be it is a new product promotion) but I am saying that good dealers do a fair amount of marketing so as manufacturer, we have to respect the partnership.
What we do plan to offer starting from July is multi-channel pack (5 Ref 8s for $3400 retail) through our dealers but this will only benefit customers who're setting up home theater or share it with their family. The serial numbers have to be recorded as a group.
Jason
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Looks like someone in some Chinese speaking country is doing a review of NuForce (we have no idea, may be it is in Taiwan)
http://tw.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/alicenannie/album?.dir=c6b7&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//tw.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/alicenannie/my_photos
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Is it possible to order NuForce amps with binding posts that can accept bananas?
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Yes, the Ref 9 can accept both banana plug and spade.
For Ref 8, you can insert the banana plug into the spaces between the binding post. It is not ideal and you have to tighten it so that the banana plug won't slip out.
We'll be changing the connector on Ref 8 in the near future.
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We discovered another case of bad preamp design after customer complained about Nuforce amp created noise. Hey, looks like NuForce amp is truly a REFERENCE amp :wink:
Please post your questions or response under the preamp topic there:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19860&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=nuforce&start=10
Casey & Jason
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Is Wadia 850 a true balanced, and can connect to the Nuforce 8b without any problem? There are warnings here and there of true balanced necessity, and not sure here.. anyone has a Wadia / Nuforce setup to comment? :)
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There are warnings here and there of true balanced necessity, and not sure here.. anyone has a Wadia / Nuforce setup to comment?
I don't know where this came from, but it is not true. As long as you have a correctly wired RCA to XLR connector (you can order the Cardas connector from NuForce or anyone else), it will work. We did recommend that you have a true balanced system if you have Ref 8b to get the best performance out of it.
Jason
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Check this out:
http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=98&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1
You can click on the pic to zoom in.
I have no idea who the customer is. But is it cool or what? Looks like NuForce is being auditioned in some serious setup. I wonder what is that transparent wall with those rectangles. And that must be some kind of high tech sound room behind it.
Jason
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Is Wadia 850 a true balanced, and can connect to the Nuforce 8b without any problem? There are warnings here and there of true balanced necessity, and not sure here.. anyone has a Wadia / Nuforce setup to comment? :)
Hi Matix,
I own a Wadia 830 going straight into the NuForce Reference 8B's and it works brilliantly. I recently posted a review http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18583&start=110
The photo with the silver face plates is of my system.
The only thing that is important is that the interconnect you are using is wired/grounded the right way - Jason at NuForce can help here - or check this page on their site: http://www.nuforce.com/support/Grounding-Ref8b.htm
Cheers
minimalistic
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...I wonder what is that transparent wall with those rectangles. And that must be some kind of high tech sound room behind it.
Jason
that's a mirrored wall, & what you see in it is the back of the listening room. note how you can just see the reflection of jm labs micro (or mini?)-utopia in the lower left hand side of the mirror... :wink:
doug s.
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I don't know where this came from, but it is not true. As long as you have a correctly wired RCA to XLR connector (you can order the Cardas connector from NuForce or anyone else), it will work. We did recommend that you have a true balanced system if you have Ref 8b to get the best performance out of it.
Jason[/quote][/quote]
Hi Jason
Excuse my English. Not "warning" but "advice". :) I read in your website that true balanced all the way is important to work well, that is why the query on the Wadia.
Hi Minimalistic
Your Wadia 830 looks cool! especially with the cute refaced Nuforce amps. Very minimalistic :D I have the much older black Wadia 850, so the black of the Nuforce is no problem with me. I am waiting for the Ref 9 though, as the local dealer advises me to wait for it since I want the full scale impact of my Mahler music. The amps are so small. I am thinking of using double side tape to stick them behind my old JM Lab Utopia. Very minimalistic... 8)
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Hi Matix,
Thanks for your comments on my system. I'm sure you'll love the Reference 9's as much as I do the 8's......specially with the Wadia 850 - that is one serious machine!
minimalistic
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6moons will have a review in July/August:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioreviews.html
Soundstage.com on July 15 and stereotimes.com should be out soon (within two weeks?)
Our UK customer Simon has done a great job in making a new face plate that we're looking into offering it as an upgrade option (to keep the cost low, we looking into several vendors and will make an announcement when it is ready). Check it out:
http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/endusers/SimonGranger.htm
We're looking into upgrading Ref 8 face plate to 1/4" similar to Ref 8b and existing users can order it for FREE from NuForce (but you have to pay shipping). We're also looking into silver color face plate as an option with advance order. Don't contact us yet as we'll make the official announcement through your dealer and on the website.
Jason
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http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html
(it is dated July 15, look for it in the archieve if you miss it)
Jim started evaluting NuForce very early and went through a torturous process of reviewing Ref 8 while we were making constant enhancements. So the first half of the article is more of a historical account. It is an honor to be compared to a few great names in audio amplifier history. Right after Jim has conlucded his review, we made another enhancement to ref 8/8b that might address the weakness that he pointed out. We don't know until he has a change to do a follow up.
Since we design and build the amp from the ground up, you can expect us to continue to make improvement. So how does existing customers upgrade their amp? We advice that you wait a year for significant enhancement to accumate and then upgrade the circuit board.
We have updated the spec and measurement plot on the website to reflect the latest (July) version.
Jason
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I continue to be impressed with your opennness, Jason, and the attitude of NF - you guys are steering clear of making outlandish claims placing your product at the zenith of the digital amp revolution, preferring instead to acknowledge perceived shortcomings and respond to credible feedback by addressing these with appropriate mods. That's the mark of a genuinely perfectionist company, and can only be good for you and the client.
The review you have linked to I find balanced, in the main, and am relieved to note that it avoids the gush of superlatives that tends to undermine, rather than enhance, a product. Balanced reviews like this, as well as some of your own comments, vindicate the more measured response to your product of those of us who shy away from the sort of hyperbole and extravagant claims that motivated me to post here in the first place.
I look forward to following the NF story as it unfolds - it is far from over, as the nirvana-proclaimers would have it. In fact, it seems to me that your story is only just beginning, and that is much more exciting than the claims from some posters that you have already delivered us to the Promised Land of audio amps. Be that the case in due course, I will gladly add my voice to the chorus of Hosannas (especially if the price remains in much the same bracket as it is now)! Don't want much, do we?
Anyway, continuing to watch on with interest. Looking forward to the 6Moons review.
Cheers
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loose :
Anyway, continuing to watch on with interest.
[/list:u]loose...Why watch... when you can give them a listen ? NuForce does have a home audition...reading is good...but listening is better ! :) [/list:u]
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lonewolfny42
I couldn't agree more!
I have auditioned the RF8s - please see my earlier posts this thread. Listening is everything. By "watching on", I meant that I'm maintaining interest in NF developments, which I will certainly assess through listening personally.
Cheers
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The way we are developing the amp is similar to development of PC. Ref 8, 8b, 9 all share the same PCB. Obviously some components will not be populated for some versions. But the "architecture" of the amp will continue to improve. So Ref 8 will benefit from Ref 9 and Ref 9 from Ref 10 and so on. Switching amplifier can be pushed pretty far. On the sound quality side, the holy grail is to achieve super low THD regardless of frequencies or power, at zero phase shift, near zero output impedance, very wide bandwidth and absolutely flat frequency response curve. On the power side, continue to increase the power density.
We plan to keep the same 8"x3" PCB size within the same family of amps so that customer's investment can be protected with PCB upgrade every year or so if they choose to. Customer don't have to worry about when they should be buying the amp. You know that it is going to keep getting better. The good news is that there is always an upgrade path at a very reasonable cost. If every person in the audiophile world decide to wait, we'll be out of business and there will be no innovation. Fortunately, we have early adopters. Hey, it is good enough, go order one :mrgreen:
Jason
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The way we are developing the amp is similar to development of PC. Ref 8, 8b, 9 all share the same PCB. Obviously some components will not be populated for some versions. But the "architecture" of the amp will continue to improve. So Ref 8 will benefit from Ref 9 and Ref 9 from Ref 10 and so on. Switching amplifier can be pushed pretty far. On the sound quality side, the holy grail is to achieve super low THD regardless of frequencies or power, at zero phase shift, near zero output impedance, very wide ban ...
Thumbs up from Denmark. Im one of the first audiophiles in my country, to get my hands on the "wonder boxses" fom the US. So i will spread the word, and hopefully more people will experience "the NUforce sound" here in scandinavia..........
:drums:
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Another reivew here: http://www.stereotimes.com/
Click on the NuForce photo. The title might still have the error where it is linked to something else.
Jason
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Just a few questions:
1) Do the NuForce amps interfere with televison reception? I was interested in auditioning 3 of the amps for the front speakers in a home theater setup and have 2 DirecTV lines in addition to an antenna line for OTA HDTV reception.
2) Have the connectors been modified for the Reference 8 amps to allow banana cables? Or do you have to order the Reference 9 amps? Are the Reference 9 amps even available yet?
3) Are these amps susceptble to ground loop issues? I always have concerns when I begin introducing multiple power cords with 3 prong plugs into my system (in this case, I would be adding at least 3 additonal power cables).
Thanks
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1) Do the NuForce amps interfere with televison reception? I was interested in auditioning 3 of the amps for the front speakers in a home theater setup and have 2 DirecTV lines in addition to an antenna line for OTA HDTV reception
The recent upgrade significantly eliminated most of the noise and will not interfer with cable or satalite TV (it never had any problem). I have DirectTV service at home and I do not notice any interference. We haven't tested with OTA (over the air?) HDTV.
2) Have the connectors been modified for the Reference 8 amps to allow banana cables? Or do you have to order the Reference 9 amps? Are the Reference 9 amps even available yet?
Ref 9 is in production and realistic ship date is August 15 but we will have limited units available for demo before that. Ref 9 will accept both banana and spade. Ref 8 can be ordered with connectors that accept banana plug.
3) Are these amps susceptble to ground loop issues?
After recently upgrade, we don't have any more known cases. Your situation doesn't appear to be a concern.
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Jason
one of the recent reviews mentions there is going to be a Signature (special edition?) version of the Reference 8. Can you give us more details eg what improvements, performance level, price, availability?
Thanks
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Signature Series is only a dream at the moment.
Has anyone checked out the THD+N spec of Ref 9?
We think Ref 9 is going to further surprise many people.
All the R&D work done on Ref 9 will immediately benefit Ref 8 as well. We'll make some announcement by end of July.
Jason
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Jason,
Question...if one own's the Ref 8's, can they be modded into being a Ref 9 ?[/list:u]By the way, I have your audition pair of the Ref. 8's now...arrived today. Nice work.... :) [/list:u]
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Your forced my hand and to avoid rumor, the answer is YES.
Just email support@nuforce if you want to upgrade. Cost for upgrade is either free or almost free.
Your audition unit has the spec shown on the website for Ref 8 and it is the same version reviewed recently. But not the latest.
All Ref 8 shipping now will have "Upgrade Version 8.01" which means it matches Ref 9 spec (except the power rating). It is astonishingly good. If you read all my post on AC, this is the first time I brag about it.
Jason
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Your forced my hand and to avoid rumor, the answer is YES.
Just email support@nuforce if you want to upgrade. Cost for upgrade is either free or almost free.
Your audition unit has the spec shown on the website for Ref 8 and it is the same version reviewed recently. But not the latest.
All Ref 8 shipping now will have "Upgrade Version 8.01" which means it matches Ref 9 spec (except the power rating). It is astonishingly good. If you read all my post on AC, this is the first time I brag about it.
Jason
So...how would you describe what the 8.01 has over the 8...in sound ? Not asking for trade secrets :lol: ...just a description of the sound improvement. Thanks Jason !!! (wow! always improving the product...nice !!)
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I have the latest version of nuforce 8b its a fair bit of an improvement actually... and free is awesome.
also the input to the board of the amp is 63v max ( i believe, its printed on there) so you could BYO your own power supply and get a reference 9 in effect, although i imagine that you would have a hard time making one as good. :)
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As many who follow the history of the discussion thread, we're always in search of perfection and high freq (some people may not hear it due to sensitivity of ears) is one area that we want to improve.
I believe WerTicus got the version that Stereotimes reviewed. Sounstageav received the upgrade at the tail end of the review process so I am not sure if that affected the result (not bad being compared to Halcro dm68).
Now with the introduction of Ref 9, we managed to further reduce THD+N for the 10K to 20K freq. If you look at the plot on our website, 10Khz THD+N range from 0.06% to 0.09% and the yet to be published plot will show that it dropped to 0.03% range (it varies slightly from unit to unit).
And if you look at the low freq THD, we're at the 0.02 range and Ref 9 further brings it down to 0.00x.
THD+N is only ONE out of several key factors that dertermine the sonic perception of an amp. And we're talking about going from very low THD to ultra low THD here!
With zero phase shift, 4000 damping factor (at all freq), high bandwidth, and now ultra low THD+N, Ref 9 (and 8) is exceptional and we are very happy now.
Last night I tried 5 Ref 8 on a set of cheap speakers in my gym room for multichannel testing and I was shocked by the how much the amps improve the home theater experience. Sad to report that to this day, I haven't had the chance to enjoy Nuforce in a multichannel setting as I am stuck with ATC Active 20 speakers in my living room.
As WerTicus said, anyone can use a linear power supply to upgrade Ref 8 for higher power and it is easy to do. But then you're stuck with some ugly transformer and by the time you're done, you probably spend too much time on it to be worth the effort. And you can't stack them nicely for multichannel setup or bring it to your friends house to show off :P
Jason
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Jason,
So what will happen to those of us who got the reference 8b and not the "8.01" version......errr 2months ago? Will a mod be offered? I really wish I'd never purchased the earlier iteration. Since I got mine (2 months), there had been 2 or 3 modifications done already. So much for the brave souls in trying new product. Don't get me wrong, I still love my Nuforce 8b. Godspeed.
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my dealer has done two upgrades to mine so far for me. the litz wire being one of them, i dont even know what the other one was.
i was happy with the 75w originals so anything extra is a bonus :P
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yeah sure but it already sounds better than anything else :P
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Doc Jr 8156 and others, we thank the early adopters for support. But it is not fair to complain about us for bringing improvement to customer without charging a lot for the upgrade or raising prices.
We can just keep the Ref 8/8b as it is and it is still one of the best amp on the market. Are we being penalized for trying to continue to bring better values to our customers? Alternatively we can just keep quiet about the awesome improvement and raise the price later or introduce a different model. All manufacturers do that.
I hope people change the mindset here. I think our approach of bringing exceptional values to customers deserve some support. Ok, enough said.
Ref 9 will be an astonishingly good amp and it costs more. We have decided to pass on the benefit of Ref 9 R&D to Ref 8/8b customer at a special upgrade cost of $15/unit + shipping. Wait for announcement.
With the introduction of Ref 9, I believe the dust has finally settled. Oh yeah, next improvement, if any, is going to cost a lot of $$$. And we are going to raise the price very soon, so buy it before it is too late.
Just kidding.
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Sorry but I was not complaining on the improvement you guys are implementing. I was a little worried because I'm not happy with parting with my amps for a period of time even how considerably short it will be when I need to send them back for the mods. If the mods are available with instructions to us "solder slingers", the better. I'm very happy with you, Nuforce company, and my amps. If you only knew how many times I recommended these amps! I think I'm on my way to be the "#1 Cheerleader for Nuforce". :lol: Did I mention how I love these babies?Godspeed.
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My room is approximately 20' x 22' and my front speakers are Revel Performa F32's (sensitivity 86db) and a Revel Performa C50a (sensitivity 91db). I was considering purchasing 3 NuForce 8's for the front speakers in my home theater - but was concerned that they may be underpowered. Does anyone have an opinion on this - either a similar sized room or speakers?
Also, I'm not used to seeing rated power (RMS) of 100 watts for 8 ohm, 4 ohm and 2 ohm loads. In theory, I have always read that a great amp should double down each time the ohms are halved.
Thanks
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akopperl, THX spec calls for 105dB peak capability, doing the math gets you to 106dB which is just over spec. I think you are right to be concerned about running out of steam. As far an amp doubling it's power into lower impedance
loads this only occurs when the amp is designed to behave as closely as possible to an ideal voltage source. This requires a power supply capable of
supplying double the current as the load is halved and output transistors that
are speced to very high power or a lot of smaller ones in parallel, think KRELL. The power supply in the NuForce amp is a 100watt power supply
with a fixed amount of voltage and current available. In this case the voltage
halves when the load impedance is cut from 8ohms to 4ohms and the current
available doubles with the total power remaining constant. It would require aproximately a 200watt power
supply to double the power from the amp into a 4ohm load and a 400watt
supply to double it again and this assumes no losses in the amp or 100%
efficiency. In actuality more than this would be required because the amp cannot be 100% efficient. Their output stage may also have current limiting
to keep the output transistors from being damaged by excessive current into low impedance loads.
Scotty
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akopperl, i think you will be ok, here's why. 1st, yure not gonna ever be needing 100w continuous power - music isn't like that. what's more important is nuform's average power-per-cycle & peak power specs. considering your speakers are rated at 6.5ohms, 3.7 ohms minimum, the reality is that, according to nuform's specs of the reference 8, the average power-per-cycle will be somewhere between 200-300w, & the peak power will be somewhere between 400-600w. this should give you adequate headroom, imo - assuming these specs are correct.
doug s.
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i have 89db efficient speakers and the nuforce can play them loud enough to damange hearing easily. And with room to go louder. the scary thing is its crystal clear this loud :)
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akopperl, I agree with doug .s that most of the time you will never need
100watts continous power,however for HT applications you just might need all of it for more than 20ms as action sequences requiring high loudness levels are usually longer than this. A good example is the last installment in the in the StarWars saga. I brought along a RadioShack spl meter when I went to see
The Revenge of the Sith. The opening space battle had a 105dB average for several seconds and the entire battle never went below 100dB. I routinely
bring earplugs when I go to movies due to the high average spls occasionally encountered. The record for all out abuse goes to the pre-movie commercials
and trailers which averaged 110db and peaked at 116db.
As a historical note the IHF tone burst test was 20ms in duration and was judged to be an inaccurate measurement of actual useable power which prompted the enactment of the FTC "Amplifier Rule" in 1974.
WerTicus, you need only half the power akopperl does to hit the same spl
because you are using 3dB more efficient loudspeakers.
Scotty
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Nuforce rules.
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akopperl, I agree with doug .s that most of the time you will never need
100watts continous power,however for HT applications you just might need all of it for more than 20ms as action sequences requiring high loudness levels are usually longer than this. A good example is the last installment in the in the StarWars saga. I brought along a RadioShack spl meter when I went to see
The Revenge of the Sith. The opening space battle had a 105dB average for several seconds and the entire battle never went b ...
i agree that 20ms is mebbe to short for some ht applications. perhaps nuforce can explain a bit better what they mean when they state "average power per cycle", which would still seem to indicate akopperl will still be ok. i take it to mean one power signwave cycle, but i am not really sure what this means in practical terms...
also, while it's true that 89db efficient speakers require half the power to reach the same spl as 86db speakers, if werticus is being blown out of his room w/his speakers, w/headroom to spare, this still indicates to me that, (assuming similar room sizes), akopperl will still be ok w/the ref 8 amps in his rig. plus, ultimate spl is cumulative - if yure getting 105db from one speaker, two speakers at the same loudness will be giving you a bit more (108db?), and w/a third center channel, it will be even louder...
besides, even if it ain't as loud as it is in the theatre, this yust means ya don't need to wear earplugs, eh scotty? :wink:
doug s.
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Re doug s's observation: "if werticus is being blown out of his room w/his speakers, w/headroom to spare, this still indicates to me that, (assuming similar room sizes), akopperl will still be ok w/the ref 8 amps in his rig."
- I'd be a little cautious in accepting the gush of good ol' werticus, who seems to have some compulsive urge to endlessly evangelise in vaccuous hyperbole about his NuForce amp(s).
Consider his statement "i have 89db efficient speakers and the nuforce can play them loud enough to damage hearing easily. And with room to go louder. the scary thing is its crystal clear this loud."
Now werticus, old biscuit, exactly how loud is "loud enough to damage hearing easily"? Have you taken a dB measurement? Indeed, do you really know exactly how loud is loud enough to damage hearing, and how long the exposure at such a level must be? I put it to you that any cheap amp from, say, Kmart could damage hearing...so what is your point here?
Could it be that in your unending zeal to affirm, reaffirm and re-re-re-re-re-reaffirm that you have the holy grail of amps in your very own possession and that this somehow reflects gloriously on you as a person that you are grabbing mindlessly at any opportunity to spread the good word without pausing to properly consider whether your latest rave has any real substance?
I can only reiterate my findings that the 75watt NF ran out of guts and certainly could not handle hard rock at the sort of volumes I like. I have not yet auditioned the 100watters, and acknowledge that with the mods - which do sound very promising from what I've READ - my gripes with the 75s may have been addressed. So, I am not having a shot at NuForce. My problem is with posters who indiscriminately rave on in excessive terms that can only detract from their credibility as a reliable assessment source.
I don't have to look far back on this thread for further examples. In response to another poster's comment that he preferred to wait for NF upgrades to ensue such that the product "has some stability in its design", werticus declared "yeah sure but it already sounds better than anything else." Better than ANYTHING else? So, werticus, how about a bit of backup? Have you HEARD everything else? If not, on what basis do you make such an extravagant claim?
Trace this thread back to its beginning and you will see numerous raves from werticus, all virtually identical in their hyperbole concerning the 75 watt NF amps, the 100watters, and the 100 watters with mods. Yet he states a couple of days back that "I have the latest version of nuforce 8b its a fair bit of an improvement actually." So, does this mean you acknowledge you were over the top in your proclamations about the earlier versions, wert? Or couldn't you hear their shortcomings all by yourself? Are you really able to hear the difference now, or are you simply accepting that mods make it all sound better? You disputed my contention in an earlier post that the NF amps were flawed in the high frequencies, then along came Jason from NF with the admirably frank acknowledgement that this is an area that needs improvement, but that some people do not have the sensitivity to hear the HF flaws (flaws that may well have now been addressed with the mods that have occurred). My suspicion is that you have dug in with your opinion long ago and are no longer hearing anything but what you want to hear and want to believe. Why else would you keep coming out with outrageously extravagant and unqualified declarations like "it already sounds better than anything else"?
I state again, I am absolutely open to the possibility that the NF product may be extraordinary value, or at least have the potential to be so in time and with further development, but I find the indiscriminate gush of the werticuses of the audiophile world irritating to the point where sometimes I can't abide it another moment without resorting to venting my annoyance in posts like this.
Try counting to 10 before you post any more meaningless oneliners of superlatives, and ask yourself before you hit "submit" whether your rave has any substance in fact. You might find more satisfaction in joining some pentacostal church, or an appropriate variant of same, that gives an outlet to folk who like to burble on in tongues and faint in ecstasy.
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That's a pretty damn good post....nothing against werticus on my part, just thought it was a damn good post....
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well obviously, the nuforece amp (75w) was the best amp I had ever heard by a reasonable margin. Then the 100w was the best I had ever heard, now the nuforce amp with the latest upgrades is the best amp I have ever heard.
all very similar but improvements none the less.
As for it being better than ANYTHING ELSE... obviously this means every amp in the entire world as i have clearly been around and listened to them all.
:roll:
But if you must know its bel canto and aska that are worthy names of mention that I believe this amp beats.
In any case I dont need to re afirm that I have the holy grail in stereo's as im an audiophile and im subsequently never happy... however a good friend of mine recently said "HOLY FUCK YOUR STEREO SOUNDS SOOOO GOOOOD FUCCCKKKKK!!"...
im glad someone was happy. :P
anyways loose I dont know how loud it really is - these things you cannot really tell by ear alone, however I would like to point out, its loud.
and anyone's opinion is anyones opinion, geezus, maybe you have a learning disablility, in case you dont get it : I REALLY LIKE NUFORCE.
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I appreciate everyone's replies. I'm still unsure if they have enough power and also I am not thrilled with the idea of having to deal with 3 separate power cords.
I had a Bel Canto eVo 6 (1st genaration) in my system. I used it to power a 5.1 system (bridging 2 channles for the center) and it appeared to have enough power (rated at 120 wpc except for the bridged channel). I loved the amp, but decided to sell it after the gen II was released while it was still holding much of its value. Also, I had separates at the time and was changing to a 7.1 system and wanted a 7 channel amp.
Since the Bel Canto, I have tried several solid state designs and they just always sound a little too bright for my liking. I am interested in going back to a digital/switching design since the Bel Canto was probably my favorite amp to date - but the Bel Canto is a little pricey for what I am trying to do today. Fortunately, I only have to power the front 3 channels as I will use a receiver to power the 4 rear channels.
Right now I am considering the NuForce amps and a Butler 3150. The Butler is not digital, but has a tubed output stage and is supposed to be very smooth (non-fatiguing).
Thanks
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Right now I am considering the NuForce amps and a Butler 3150. The Butler is not digital, but has a tubed output stage and is supposed to be very smooth (non-fatiguing). ...
Interestingly, I'm comparing the Nuforce Ref8b amps to the Butler 2250 right now. I'm using a TacT 2.2x preamp and have been switching between them today. All this gear is on loan from my dealer (http://www.hometheaterdoc.com).
My preliminary thoughts on the sonic personality of the 2 amps is a bit surprising. The Nuforce pair is more tube-like in its presentation than I expected. It has a good 'kick' to it as well... and it has PLENTY of power in my room. (only 11x13) It's like a good combo of SS and tubes.
The Butler is similar but has a 'softer' sound to it. It's not as punchy but it is powerful. If you want more of a pillow-satin-smooth sound, this is it. If you want a tight, punchy sound that's also smooth, the Nuforce's are likely a better option.
I haven't heard either amp run out of gas in my room, on my speakers. Either has more than enough power. I haven't decided which I'd prefer yet. I wouldn't be upset with either.
With the gear in my room right now, there's no real loser... But with the room correction and amps I'm demo'ing, there's more 'flavors' than I've ever had possible in one sitting.
Look for more feedback about this gear from others in the NC Circle after tomorrow.
Hope this helps a little,
Carl
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Hi,
Just thought i'd add my 2 cents worth and comment on the post from loose and werticus' response :). I really think it is up to the individual to read between the lines and ascertain the merits of a persons posts. Hey, i've been guilty of upbeating particular products because i was excited by the sound i was obtaining, however look at my comments regarding the stock ps audio hca - 2.
Anyway i really like the nuforce 75watter and my comments were in regard to its price of $1500au which was amazing value. At those prices in australia you can only buy nad/rotel/denon.
I think the nuforce ref8's have replaced the bel canto evo gen2 monoblocks at the local dealers shop in perth.
Anyway back to my fully modded ps audio hca -2 and no i'm not going to compare it to the nuforce amp, i'm off the merry go round for a while :) .
Regards
Rod
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...As WerTicus said, anyone can use a linear power supply to upgrade Ref 8 for higher power and it is easy to do. But then you're stuck with some ugly transformer and by the time you're done, you probably spend too much time on it to be worth the effort. And you can't stack them nicely for multichannel setup or bring it to your friends house to show off :P
Actually, all things being equal (i.e. rail voltages), there are some rather compelling reasons, both technical and economic, to prefer switching powersupplies for producing bass frequencies below 2xline frequency (100 or 120hz). A major reason linear supplies have such honking big capacitors on the rails is that these are what provide power for bass. These provide the joules of energy to power bass excursion, but they are recharging only 100 or 120 time a second. Energy storage of caps is linearly related to the charging frequency, and as switching supplies recharge their caps at frequencies orders of magnitude higher, they can have tremendous advantages. This may well a factor in users reporting excellent bass performance in the Nuforce, in spite of less than spectacular rms characteristics.
And furthermore, I don't find transformers ugly at all, I find them rather charming in a retro sort of a way......
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hehehe retro, thats funny occam :)
but yes i have never heard anything that comes even close to the bass performance of nuforce, they make EVERYTHING sound slow.
but i wonder if the hi frequency 'issues' some people are having would be solved by having a traditional supply... hrmm.
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I was away for the whole weekend and saw quite a few posting. Occam is exactly right about the reason for switching power supply's performance. We elaborated it more on our website under power faq.
With Ref 9 (see spec on website), I think combinning it with Ref 8 will be a very good match for home theater use. By the way, all Ref 8 users will be receiving 1/4" faceplate for free!
There is no need for existing Ref 8b or Ref 8 users to rush to upgrade it to the so called "Ref 9" spec. The amp as it is now is very good and what we have done to Ref 9 is pushing the limit further.
Jason
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I can't help but jump in here. I really don't have any real experience with high-end amps, but I think damning the Nuforce based on what other people say is a mistake. If you listen to it, you will know it is something special. Currently, I think I have a later version in one channel and an earlier version in the other. Could I live with this? Most certainly, but these guys are saying an even better version costs $15. Doesn't anybody get it? These guys are the Ford Model T(was that the correct model?) of amps. They are bringing extremely high-end sound to the masses.
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Now stick with me here-no matter what your politics are. I remember C-Span playing about twenty speeches in a row, where Clinton said reducing the deficit was the most important thing. When it actually happenned, people said it was Greenspan or the Republican Congress. But guess what happenned when he left office(remember that he actually created a surplus). Greenspan and the Republican Congress were still there. I understand where he put Cuban cigars weren't the best place, but he actually did what he said he would(which is unusual for politicians). This(if you are still with me) is analogous to when you hear Nuforce. Take your most familiar cd's(although I don't believe in cd.) or records, and when they sound better than you've heard before, don't ascribe it to the speakers, cable, or source. Keep your skepticism, but don't automatically ascribe the situation to other things.
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makshak
Who's "damning the Nuforce based on what other people say"? 98% of this thread is raves. I can't recall a single instance of anyone "damning" the NF. A very few, like me, have rejected the over-the-top claims of serial hyperbole-merchants like werticus - and in my case, this was based on a critical appraisal through auditioning the product - and called for more measured responses.
Far from "damning" the NF, most of this thread has served to elevate it to an impossibly rarified status with extravagantly bloated praise. This detracts from the credibility of the posters concerned, and also possibly the product, since anyone reading the unqualified gush of the Holy Grailers will in all likelihood bring unrealistic expectations to any subsequent audition. Fortunately, the word from the horse's mouth - Jason - is more tempered, while still being fired with excitement and enthusiasm over his company's product. A lesson here, for some.
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We at NuForce are perfectionists. For those who think NuForce is good, but not quite there, I challenge you to evaluate Ref 9 (or the updated Ref 8). Oh well, you can't evaluate Ref 9 yet until after August 15. A few pre-production units are out there...but we have just posted the production Ref 9 photo. If you are willing to pay extra color setup charge (varies from color to color and depending on number of units), you can have it in any color. May be your wife will let you display a stack of pink color Ref 9s :lol:
I will start another subject on NuForce Reference 9 to contain the rumors, get fresh new feedbacks etc. I think people like audiojerry should audition Ref 8 again as it has come a long way.
Jason
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oh dear its happening again :)
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Pretty natural state of things that in a thread dealing with a new product you will find an overwhelmingly number of praisals. Critics and bashers will be in minority. For this reason nothing to lift even an eyebrow over or you're being naive. And even more natural is that in this case we are dealing with a product, more or less revolutionary in its design and at great value for the money! Suddenly hi-end became affordable to more or less common people and a secluded market is challenged at its core. This doesn't sit well with some folks who want to preserve the secret handshake club.
But then again, in audio specs are one thing and personal prefs are another. If you don't like the sound of Halcros you don't.
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For those who don't recall, or were not around at the time, I was one of the early auditioners. In short, my review included some positive comment on its virtues, but the bottom line was that the Nuforce was not in line with my preferences and did not compare favorably to my personal amp.
Jason and Nuforce deserve credit for accepting my criticisms in stride. Instead of becoming defensive or trying to discredit my ability to listen, a tactic that other manufacturers on this forum have resorted to, Nuforce went back to the drawing board and have continued to try to refine and improve.
I try to keep an open mind, and I'd be interested in finding out how far Nuforce has come.
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Hi audiojerry,
You're more than welcome to come down and audition the Ref9's once they arrive. I'm putting in the order today for the new units having already heard the beta Ref9 and expect them to be here mid August.
You're only a little more than an hour a way so PM me if your interested.
Joe
JAM'n Audio
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Audio is very complex but so far we have been able to corelate the listening experience with the science. There is no perfect amp yet and everyone has a preference. So, even for a very good amp such as NuForce, we find that a lot of people raved about it because of a good bass, sound stage etc. High freq imaging WAS a weak point (compare to some of the best) and it has been pointed out by a few people. Sure, there are many who find that it is good enough due to their setup, music preference, ear characteristic or whatever. We enjoyed bathing in their praises :) . But the science doesn't lie. I wonder why icepower datasheet doesn't show THD+N vs Freq at various power rating :lol: . And the spec only showed THD+N at 1Khz, etc up to about 7khz. hmm...
For those who follow the plots, each upgrades showed significant improvement in measurement and that corelate to listening feedback.
With the latest upgrade, we have taken measurement that showed THD+N at 0.03% at 20khz at 10W for example, with a 40khz filter (ie no cheating). As a comparison, the version that was first audition by some people has THD+N at 0.16% at 20khz at 10W (even this number is highly respectable). I doubt any other switching amp or few linear amp can achieve 0.02x% THD for 20Khz. Recent listening test have confirmed the improvement in high freq imaging.
But good sound reproduction is more than just THD+N and freq. Harmonic and power plays an important part too. We didn't just bring down the distortion and noise to an astonishingly low level (we are still trying to confirm our SNR of 90+ to 100db and that's amazing for a switching amp with switching power supply), harmonic has cleaned up. Many people wondered why NuForce with 100W rms sounded as loud as some 300W linear amp and that's due to the fast response time of the SMPS.
Someone demo NuForce Ref 8 recently at a show in Chicago (related to AV123) and someone was wondering where did we hide the tube.
NuForce has zero phase shift and near zero output impedance at ANY frequencies and that's the reason it matches well with many speakers. We know that Current hungry speakers (Apogee) will not be a good match for Ref 8 due to its SMPS Current limit of 2.1A. The amp's power can be estimated with V square / 2*load but SMPS will current limit even though it seems that there is enough power if you rely on voltage for power calculation. To address this problem, we put in a 350W RMS SMPS in Ref 9 with voltage limit at 52V and current limit at 7.3A.
With all the rapid improvement, we're exhausted and need to chill out for a while :sleep:
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I would say you've earned the right to take leave with pay for a while, and should! Congratulations on an auspicious entry into the market.
Russell
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We know that Current hungry speakers (Apogee) will not be a good match for Ref 8 due to its SMPS Current limit of 2.1A. The amp's power can be estimated with V square / 2*load but SMPS will current limit even though it seems that there is enough power if you rely on voltage for power calculation. To address this problem, we put in a 350W RMS SMPS in Ref 9 with voltage limit at 52V and current limit at 7.3A.
Jason
I have Quad 989 speakers. They have sensitivity of about 87db but are not easy loads due to their impedance curve which I understand drops well below 8 ohms. I am planning on auditioning a pair of 8Bs. 100 watts is enough for 87db (my current amps - Aleph 2s - are 100 wpc) but I'm not sure how "current hungry" the 989s are.
You have to forgive my technical ignorance but does a difficult load in terms of impedance equate to being current hungry and might, therefore, the 8Bs be a bad match for my 989s and other such "difficult loads" ?
BTW the Alephs are great amps and I will be very impressed if the 8Bs can better them!
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ESL-989
If it drops to 1 ohm, then you will find Ref 8/8b inadequate.
The spec said the impedance is 8 ohm.
Jason
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Jason
The spec does say 8 ohms but its said that that is not the full story . .
I very much doubt though that they go down to 1 ohm.
Just for my clarification, does current hungry equate to low impedance?
Thanks
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Just for my clarification, does current hungry equate to low impedance?
In general yes, but a speaker's impedance and current requirement is more complex then a simple explaination so I included a response from our CTO below. Follow the speaker manufacturer's recommendation for amp power requirement.
Jason
From more technical people at NuForce:
What matters is whether there is any clipping of output voltage to the speaker due to its dynamic loading and instantaneous current.
What is the instantaneous current going in or out of the speaker? That depends on the amplified audio voltage applied to the speaker, its reaction (Back EMFs) and its impedance, which is very complex and not constant in time due to the speaker’s interaction with the room’s air and walls. Yes a speaker is also a receiver of room’s acoustic energy and one can actually see voltages across its terminals when it is exposed to sound waves.
Because of multiple drivers in a typical speaker, there’re many back EMFs due to the existence of coils moving in magnetic fields. Depending on the time, the biggest back EMF generator is the woofer, its back-EMF can have the same phase as the driving voltage and effectively makes the speaker current higher than the simplistic formula I = V/Z would indicate. The measurable speaker current is the vectored sum of many (V-EMF)/Z, keeping in mind EMF is not in phase with V which is the reference phase. Now V is not a sine most of the time, but most critically an impulse at the attack of a sound segment. That creates an impulse of sound wave that gets reflected by the walls of the room back to the speaker membrane which in turn generate an impulse of EMF not in phase with V, perturbing V. The control loop then tries to correct to maintain V at what it should be at that particular instant. And that may result in a very high speaker current virtually impossible to predict by simple vector math, but can be measured.
In all this the rail voltage has little to do with the speaker current except if the storage capacitor gets drained of its charge and droops its voltage sufficiently to cause “clipping” in the sense of not allowing the control system to maintain the speaker voltage at what it should be at that instant, therefore the speaker voltage wouldn’t match the audio source voltage.
So while (V-EMF) can be higher than V in absolute value, Z can be smaller than the speaker’s nominal impedance due to different LC combinations, therefore the externally measurable speaker current can be very high, much higher than say Vrail/R, R being nominal speaker impedance which is really meaningless in most cases. Using an ohmmeter to measure a speaker impedance only shows its DC resistance, typically of the woofer coil, but not its real Z which is very complex.
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Hmmm... back EMF is by definition out of phase with the original signal. Its the result of the original signal pushing the coil through the magnetic field and the resulting flow of current is opposite the original. How could it be in phase?
Oh... I see. Your talking about multiple drivers. The back EMF is probably only an issue as woofers as you say.
The best way to reduce back EMF is to have a smaller coil. I'll beat my own drum here.... it's one of the advantages of our XBL^2 motors. The coil and inductance is MUCH smaller which decreases the back EMF effects.
If you want some reading to make your head hurt.
http://www.klippel.de/download/bin/AN11%20-%20Flux%20modulation.pdf
Overall speaker impedance is not that complex though and the only way you get more current without changing voltage is by lower impedance. Period.
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I just got my updated amp back yesterday. Right at first it sounded closed in. That changed. I think it challenged me to come clean(based on my feeling that policies that benefit just the few are doomed to failure-my moniker). I'm preaching to the converted here, probably. First off, get a Rega Planar 3 or 2(depending on finances). This has a state of the art arm. Get albums produced before 1983(pre-digital, with a few exceptions). Get a Nuforce 8. This will change the brain waves, which is why we listen to music. I don't own the Rega, but most people don't know how to set up a turntable. The arm, I believe is not height-adjustable, hence no 180-gram records. I should mention that 8.01 is incredible(beyond my capacities to describe).
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after getting my updated ref 8s back from NuForce for weeks now, i finally had a few moments to hook them up...been out of town for the last 4 wks...
i hooked them up to a pair of Omega Mini Me speakers...WOW!!! sound is so liquid and effortless. very natural, fast, and transparent. the Ref 8s make the Mini Me really sing! :thumb:
can't wait to hook them up to the Hyperion 938 and Von Schweikert VR-4Jrs...
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I have been listening to a pair of Ref 8b's for the last couple of days, loaned to me by someone that wanted to hear them used with my speakers(I am now hoping he forgets :D ).
Even in my modest system, I am impressed with the transparency and control that the Ref 8's exhibit. Very nice!
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I have been listening to a pair of Ref 8b's for the last couple of days, loaned to me by someone that wanted to hear them used with my speakers(I am now hoping he forgets :D ).
Even in my modest system, I am impressed with the transparency and control that the Ref 8's exhibit. Very nice!
get a pair of Endler attenuators for ~$160 and you'll be able to hear what the Nuforce amps can really do...i think you'll be surprised to hear how much your P-965 colors the sound...
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I have been listening to a pair of Ref 8b's for the last couple of days, loaned to me by someone that wanted to hear them used with my speakers(I am now hoping he forgets :D ).
Even in my modest system, I am impressed with the transparency and control that the Ref 8's exhibit. Very nice!
get a pair of Endler attenuators for ~$160 and you'll be able to hear what the Nuforce amps can really do...i think you'll be surprised to hear how much your P-965 colors the sound...
Or...you can try the Ref. 8's with a cdp that has a volume control. That's what I'm doing now...amps, cdp, speakers...nice easy system. Enjoy !! :)
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Jason,
I would like to know the DC offset of your amplifiers as I'm thinking of using them in an active setup on Apogees (ribbon loudspeakers). Just want to know if I would have to place a capacitor before the MRT panel as ribbons hate DC as they are permanently magnetised at a low level, and under such conditions will drift to the limit of their mechanical resistance.
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Thanks for the tip Fo. The P-965 will probably go away within the year, and the Ref 8's will go back to their owner next week, so I won't have the chance to mess around.
That said, I am really enjoying the amps, to the point where I am almost trying to justify buying a pair or seven. :)
I have been listening to a pair of Ref 8b's for the last couple of days, loaned to me by someone that wanted to hear them used with my speakers(I am now hoping he forgets :D ).
Even in my modest system, I am impressed with the transparency and control that the Ref 8's exhibit. Very nice!
get a pair of Endler attenuators for ~$160 and you'll be able to hear what the Nuforce amps can really do...i think you'll be surprised to hear how much your P-965 colors the sound...
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I would like to know the DC offset of your amplifiers as I'm thinking of using them in an active setup on Apogees (ribbon loudspeakers).
DC offset is half of the supply voltage, ie 24V.
csc and others: if you're buying 7 units for HT, contact us or your dealer for special deals (warranty voided if you break them up and resell it) :).
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excuse my ignorance, but isn't that a huge offset and what implications does that have for any drivers that don't have a high pass filter? Does that mean the bass driver will be pushed in or out almost to the limits of excursion whenever the amp is powered up?
Russell
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DC offset is between +ve and gnd or -ve and gnd of the speaker terminals. Icepower has the same behavior.
The DC between +ve and -ve is less than 0.1V
Jason
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get a pair of Endler attenuators for ~$160 and you'll be able to hear what the Nuforce amps can really do...i think you'll be surprised to hear how much your P-965 colors the sound...
Hey Mad Dog dont you have an Aesthetix Callisto pre? How do these Endler Attenuators compare to that with the Nuforce?
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get a pair of Endler attenuators for ~$160 and you'll be able to hear what the Nuforce amps can really do...i think you'll be surprised to hear how much your P-965 colors the sound...
Hey Mad Dog dont you have an Aesthetix Callisto pre? How do these Endler Attenuators compare to that with the Nuforce?
hello Agisthos,
you are correct. i am running the Aesthetix Callisto Signature...the Endlers are quite good, but can't compare in terms of drive, dynamics, slam, and soundstage separation.
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csc and others: if you're buying 7 units for HT, contact us or your dealer for special deals (warranty voided if you break them up and resell it) :).
Might be giving your offices a call....
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NuForce just received another all out endorsement from Sweden's component.se
http://www.component.se/docs.php?page=artikel-nuforce_reference8.php
We translated the conclusion:
"...We recommend warmly the Nuforce Reference 8, listen to them and be amazed and surprised. With the latest upgrade, there is no other way for us than to purchase the reviewed amplifiers. At present it is our new reference power amplifier"
Yes, NuForce has become another reviewer's reference amp.
Reference 8 reviews are in various stages of completion (some just started :O).
More reviews are coming .... :) and Reference 9 reviews will begin soon.
Jason
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DC offset is between +ve and gnd or -ve and gnd of the speaker terminals. Icepower has the same behavior.
The DC between +ve and -ve is less than 0.1V
Jason
Hi Jason,
This DC offset has always been the one thing that bothered me about my Nuforce amps. While <0.1v probably isn't an issue, its more than seen on most other amps. Any chance the nuforce team will be coming out with a mod to bring this down to the <10mv range?
Thanks,
---Gary
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Better would be to have no DC offset at all as all Cardioid or Cardioid/standard ribbon arrays will suffer from this and age prematurely or even worse..
As to ICE based amps, a solution has been found to get DC offset to zero. Maybe Nuforce can provide a mod to do this also. It would make going truly active with those amps on ribbon speakers, a viable solution.
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What effect does the DC offset have? Will it cause any damage to speakers or result in loud pops when you power up the amp?
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For possible damage regarding active setup for ribbonspeakers with amplifiers which have DC offset follow these links where that subject has been debated.
http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/004070.html
http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/004216.html
With a passive setup (capacitor in place) there is absolutely no problem whatsoever.
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DC offset is between +ve and gnd or -ve and gnd of the speaker terminals. Icepower has the same behavior.
The DC between +ve and -ve is less than 0.1V
Jason
Hi Jason,
This DC offset has always been the one thing that bothered me about my Nuforce amps. While <0.1v probably isn't an issue, its more than seen on most other amps. Any chance the nuforce team will be coming out with a mod to bring this down to the <10mv range?
Thanks,
---Gary
0.1V refers to production spec. Let us know if you need to have extremely low DC offset and we will accomodate.
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Jason,
Yes I would like to have a DC offset of zero Volt. This way Nuforce can be taken into consideration to actively drive ribbons without the need for placing capacitors which sort of negates the benefits of truly going active. The ribbons will be Apogee's Duetta's Signature driven by nuforce 9 if they can give the necessary current.
Kind Regards
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My Definitive Technology BP7004 can only accomodate 25V DC offset of speaker-in to ground with LFE connected. 24V is too close, so NuForce is no go for me unless the offset is zero.
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My Definitive Technology BP7004 can only accomodate 25V DC offset of speaker-in to ground with LFE connected. 24V is too close, so NuForce is no go for me unless the offset is zero.
Sorry for the confusion.
The DC offset that matters, between +ve and -ve terminals is less than 0.1V. Both speaker terminals sits on 24VDC to ground. This is common to switching amplifiers using a single supply rail (1/2 Vcc = virtual analog ground).
In general, only Apogee users have to be concerned with the 0.1V DC offset, this is not an issue with all other speaker types.
The 24VDC to ground limit with the Definitive Technology is because of its built-in subwoofer amp tapping signals from the speaker leads. If the BP7004 has a line level input, then it's better to route a line level signal directly to its built-in subwoofer. Or if it allows for a separate woofer speaker connection, wire a 200-300uF bipolar capacitor in series.
Casey
NuForce
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I have the Nuforce 8.01 balanced amplifiers. They are very sophisticated amps and require that I set up my turntable(so at least the armboard is flush with the top plate) and speaker placement properly. My point here has little to do with the Nuforce. What I want to discuss is the assumption that ribbon tweeters or electrostatices have the treble perfectly correct. Raise your hand if you have ever met perfection in audio. To assume that ribbons or electrostatics have treble correct is incorrect(only God is perfect). I challenge those people with that assumption to tell me what ribbons or electrostatics are lacking in the treble.
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My comments about tweeters don't belong here. I do believe the Nuforce 8.01's have become a very sophisticated amplifier. It is more harmonically correct now, I believe. But now the work begins. I am forced to correct my inadequate setup.
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My comments about tweeters don't belong here.....
they make a hell of a lot more sense than your comments about god. :o
doug s.
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What part of the comment about God didn't make sense? He only made one comment and it made sense to me!
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dont start talk about religion it can only end badly.
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What part of the comment about God didn't make sense? He only made one comment and it made sense to me!
god is perfect? this makes sense to you?!? what planet are you living on? :o
only one thing for sure that i know about god. it's dog spelled backwards. everything else is pure speculation on anyone's part. of course good christians like pat robertson may disagree w/me! :lol:
and, werticus, i agree w/you - most anything about religion - organized religion anyways - ends up badly. arguing about god is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend. :wink:
doug s.
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"and, werticus, i agree w/you - most anything about religion - organized religion anyways - ends up badly. arguing about god is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend. "
What's religion got to do with God? Not much.
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"and, werticus, i agree w/you - most anything about religion - organized religion anyways - ends up badly. arguing about god is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend. "
What's God have to do with religion? Not much.
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What's religion got to do with God? Not much.
couldn't agree more. try to convince all the "religious" folk that.
:o
doug s.
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earth :) - you know the one God created.
(in response to your question)
thanks for asking,
bill
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its begun!
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I request God be given his own forum in the manufacturers circle!!
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If you people keep going with the discussion about God and religion in this topic, I will have to play the NuForce Circle god and start making things disappear!
:nono:
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My reference to God was to make a point that nothing is perfect. Nothing else intended here. Let's continue with the Nuforce discussion(twice I've messed up continued dialog).
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Let's continue. I thought that the main difference between the 8b and the 8.01b had to do with high frequencies and dynamics(my comments about ribbon tweeters and electrostatics had to do with my DCM Time Windows only being good until about 18 khz). Any insights or comments?
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I think we should forget about 8, we have moved on to 8.01 :)
The improvement is on the high freq, especially 10K to 20K range. 8.01 has lower THD in that region. But not everyone can detect it as ability to hear high freq is very much ear dependent.
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I may not hear it(the 8 versus the 8.01), but I don't believe that anyone can now object to the high-frequency performance.
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I detect a clear improvement with the 8.01; I had some concerns about my version 8.0, but absolutely none regarding my 8.01. These amps are subtle, sweet and beautiful from top to bottom, with a huge soundstage. Currently running with a custom tubed pre, but I have had a Sonic Euphoria passive in the system too; the two preamps have different presentations but I could be very, very happy with either.
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I am seriously missing the triple Ref 9's that I had the opportunity to demo for four days. The music no longer has that deep bass and full soundstage. Cannot wait to move my Aragon 8008 to power the surround. I will count off the days until the Ref 9's that I ordered arrive in early October. Hopefully, they will be on time.
The only downside was that the tuner section on my Arcam AVP-700 is useless with the NuForce amps in play. Jason has indicated that the Ref 9's need to be 3 meters away from the tuner and or antenna. This is impossible for me to do with my system setup. Is there anything that I can do to alleviate this issue. The only things I listen to on the tuner are the Patriots and the Eric In The Evening jazz show on WBUR in Boston (it is a fabulous jazz radio show). The Ref 9's are so good I will give them up, but there must be something else that I can do to deal with the interference.
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The only downside was that the tuner section on my Arcam AVP-700 is useless with the NuForce amps in play. Jason has indicated that the Ref 9's need to be 3 meters away from the tuner and or antenna.
3 meters?
Even if you don't have a tuner in your system, the fact that the amps put out enough EMI to require that much distance makes me wonder how they will affect other components and cabling in the system. Aren't the amps shielded??
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Jason has indicated that the Ref 9's need to be 3 meters away from the tuner and or antenna.
3 meters does seem a bit excessive. I'll have Jim plug in the same units you used this evening and see what happens with a tuner going.
-KJ
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There is no interference with any of my other components or interconnects, including my hyper-sensitive turntable. Generally, unless the tuner in a receiver or pre-pro is well shielded, they will not generate a good acceptable signal quality due to normal RF interference. As my tuner antenna is RF based, its' proximity to the NuForce amps (which do promote more RF noise/interference than normal amps) is problematic. But this does not mean that any other component is being affected. IMO, they were otherwise silent except for the tuner issue. And, they were the best sounding amps that I have ever had the opportunity to use.
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FM tuner uses very low power RF and even if an amp passed FCC/CE certifications, it can still generate sufficient RFI to interfer with FM reception when the antenna is close to the amp. Therefore we recommend you bring the shielded FM antenna (the tuner and amps can be close together) as far away as possible. Those people with roof top antenna reported no problem with their reception. 5 meters away should allow you to receive most of the channels.
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FM tuner uses very low power RF and even if an amp passed FCC/CE certifications, it can still generate sufficient RFI to interfer with FM reception when the antenna is close to the amp. Therefore we recommend you bring the shielded FM antenna (the tuner and amps can be close together) as far away as possible. Those people with roof top antenna reported no problem with their reception. 5 meters away should allow you to receive most of the channels.
Um... I've used a variety of amps over the years and I've never had one interfere with an FM tuner, even when the tuner, a dipole antenna and the amps were inches apart. Requiring things to be spread over ten feet apart is extreme.
Devices that put out noise RF really should have internal shields - no exceptions. Especially if you ever want European sales - if I remember, they get stringent on this point. Would it really take more than a metal foil lining inside the case?
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I think you're right about the European strictness re: RF behaviour.
I wonder if in this case the RF is being radiated from the box or from the wires attached, in which case ferrite chokes around all the attached wires at the closest point to the amplifier should help. If RF is being sent down the interconnects, power cord or speaker wires any of these will serve as a transmitting antenna.
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FM tuner uses very low power RF and even if an amp passed FCC/CE certifications, it can still generate sufficient RFI to interfer with FM reception when the antenna is close to the amp. Therefore we recommend you bring the shielded FM antenna (the tuner and amps can be close together) as far away as possible. Those people with roof top antenna reported no problem with their reception. 5 meters away should allow you to receive most of the channels.
Well, I do use a rooftop antenna (my OTA HD antenna) with a splitter that runs coaxial cables to my satellite receiver and to my tuner.
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Jason,
Tell Casey to make sure the AC safety ground coming from the power cord is shorted to the chassis as close to the chassis entry point as possible. We're talking no more than a few millimeters here. DO NOT allow a "pig-tail" length of it jumper over to the PCB ground-plane first. That's probably were the problem is if you're bussing your ground over to the board. Then, just ground the PCB to the board stand-offs. Star grounding at one point may not work - wavelengths are too short and will radiate from board traces before reaching the chasis ground point. You may have to tie the plane to the chassis at as many stand-offs points as possible..
You can try the chokes, ferrite beads and all, but you're likely to just push the radiated spectrum around like trying to hold an air buble under water - it just pops up somewhere else. As long as you get rid of the internal pigtail ground wire and as long as any holes in the chassis are smaller than the radiated waveleghts, you should be able to clean it up with little more than a common-mode choke in the IEC mains connector. If not, well...please excuse and then quickly forget this posting. Sorry.
Don't mean to tell you guys how to design, just trying to help. I've worked with VERY LARGE switching power cicuits in the past. The biggest was 40 kWin a space the size of 2 shoe boxes that ran (fixed frequency) at 2MHz. I had the task of cleaning up that very problem in one project - and that's what I found that worked - only after playing around with chokes, beads and caps ad infinitum.
Good luck, I hope this helps.
-Bob
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Gostan,
We need to investigate this further. I use Denon AV recevivers (48xx and 53xx) and have no problem with using a FM antenna about 15 feet long.
Here's what I extracted OUT OF Arcam AVP 700 manual:
THE AVP700 IS A DIGITAL AUDIO DEVICE WHICH HAS BEEN DESIGNED TO VERY HIGH STANDARDS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC COMPATIBILITY. THE UNIT CAN RADIATE RF (RADIO FREQUENCY) ENERGY. IN SOME CASES THIS CAN CAUSE INTERFERENCE WITH FM AND AM RADIO RECEPTION. IF THIS IS THE CASE, KEEP THE AVP700 PLAYER AND ITS CONNECTING CABLES AS FAR FROM THE TUNER AND ITS AERIALS AS POSSIBLE. CONNECTING THE AVP700 AND THE TUNER TO DIFFERENT MAINS SOCKETS CAN ALSO HELP TO REDUCE INTERFERENCE
http://www.arcam.co.uk/prod_diva_AVP700_intro.cfm
May be with NuForce and AVP the RFI got too high? We're not the only one recommending using long FM antenna :)
Can you try using the FM ribbon cable that came with AVP700 to see if there's any different ?
Or switch to XM radio :wink:
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Gostan,
We need to investigate this further. I use Denon AV recevivers (48xx and 53xx) and have no problem with using a FM antenna about 15 feet long.
Here's what I extracted OUT OF Arcam AVP 700 manual:
THE AVP700 IS A DIGITAL AUDIO DEVICE WHICH HAS BEEN DESIGNED TO VERY HIGH STANDARDS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC COMPATIBILITY. THE UNIT CAN RADIATE RF (RADIO FREQUENCY) ENERGY. IN SOME CASES THIS CAN CAUSE INTERFERENCE WITH FM AND AM RADIO RECEPTION. IF THIS IS THE CASE, KEEP THE AVP700 PLAYER AND ITS CONNECTIN ...
Jason:
Thank you for this information. I suspect that this may be a fairly normal disclaimer as I have had issues with FM tuning sensitivity with other built in tuners in receivers. My demo Ref 9's have now been returned to Jim P. at NextLevelAV, so I will have to await your delivery of my own triplet Ref 9's in early October to experiment with this issue. FYI, the tuner sensitivity/reception issue has not stopped me from purchasing and awaiting delivery (very anxiously) of these wonderful sounding amps. Early October (I hope they are on time) cannot come soon enough. I am sure that when I get my own Ref 9's that I can find some type of a work-around.
Jim P. advised me last evening that he conducted a simple experiment with an Arcam AVR-300 and a SN P-965 and that he received fm signals (varying degrees based on the strength of the individual stations) by moving each unit about 2 or 3 feet away from the Ref 9's.
Stan
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NuForce Reference 9’s Review: My triplets have arrived.
System: Arcam AVP-700, Denon DVD-2900, B&W N803, HTM1, N805 & ASW-850 and Aragon 8008ST with Kimber 8TC and Cobalt speaker cables and a combination of Kimber, Audioquest and Apature interconnects.
Packaging & Aesthetics: Each of the three Ref 9’s each came packed in its’ own “plain jane” box just a little larger than their minute’ form factor with the power cord at one end of the box. As I unpacked them and lifted each out of the box, I could not believe how light and small they are. The black versions are well milled and pleasing too look at. The face plate is plain with a blue power on diode in the middle and no power switch on the front, as it is located in the rear.
Hook-Up: I checked to make sure that the toggle switch on the back was pointed to RCA and not the balanced connections. My Ref 9’s came with the upgraded Eichmann Cable Pod connectors and these provide for a very clean and tight speaker wire connection at the amplifier end.
Initial Observations: Right from the get go it is apparent that these very fast switching amplifiers are very musical in nature with a very low quick bass. They are dynamic and extremely detailed. The soundstage is full, but retains its realism. These comments are made in direct comparison to how my system sounded when being powered by the Aragon amp, and formerly, by a Rotel RMB-1075.
Music Demonstrations:
Julia Fordham-That’s Live: A great test as the combination of Larry Klein’s bass and Julia’s vocals provide a beautiful but difficult to power low-hi instrument-vocal recording. The first thing that I noticed is the deep deep bass. The response speed between Julia’s vocals and the instruments and the individual nature of the sound of each simply sounded wonderful. I could hear the individual strings of Larry Klein’s bass twanging back and forth. The guitars and vocals on Concrete Love with India Arie and the vocals on Lovin’ You, a Minnie Ripperton composition sounded like I had never listened to either before. Not different, but more noticeable and realistic.
Super Session: Mike Bloomfield’s guitar on His Holy Modal Majesty has always been a favorite of mine. Soulful and jazz-like, the Ref 9’s definitely bring this recording to another level.
John Coltrane-Blue Train: I listened to this on SACD and on an Analogue Productions 45rpm recording. Coltrane’s sound is very different and the reproduction of his tenor sax is true to both recordings. Kenny Drew’s piano solo on Blue Train again sounds full, dynamic and just like he was sitting and playing in my living room. For me, the Ref 9’s helped to reproduce this historic recording with a very deep soundstage, when directly compared to other amps.
The Chronicles Of Riddick: The soundtrack on this one is definitely superb. A first test of the DD/DTS capabilities of my Arcam AVP-700 when mated with the NuForce amps across the front. The speed and transient responses of the Ref 9’s really shines with this soundtrack. I heard individual sounds like the pounding of metal on metal, or a warrior hitting the floor, etc. which I had never heard sounding so real on previous viewings.
Summary: The amps only been running for about 45 hours. When I initially demoed them, my comment was that they brought a new speedier and lower bass response and a clearer and more dynamic mid-range to my B&W’s. My opinion has not wavered. The NuForce Ref 9’s are small in size, but produce a deep and detailed soundstage. I am just beginning to realize how musical sounding they are. They definitely do not change the recording, but I am now able to listen to certain recordings in a different light, as a veil has been lifted, and the recordings have come alive. Only negatives are the lack of power switch on front (I leave them on 24-7) and the rf interference with built in tuner in my pre-pro (I am going to try relocating them further away). Easy to install and move due to their size, and easy on the pocketbook at a fabulous price point, when compared to many other more expensive amplifier options; the NuForce amps have been worth waiting for.
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Gostan,
We need to investigate this further. I use Denon AV recevivers (48xx and 53xx) and have no problem with using a FM antenna about 15 feet long.
Here's what I extracted OUT OF Arcam AVP 700 manual:
THE AVP700 IS A DIGITAL AUDIO DEVICE WHICH HAS BEEN DESIGNED TO VERY HIGH STANDARDS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC COMPATIBILITY. THE UNIT CAN RADIATE RF (RADIO FREQUENCY) ENERGY. IN SOME CASES THIS CAN CAUSE INTERFERENCE WITH FM AND AM RADIO RECEPTION. IF THIS IS THE CASE, KEEP THE AVP700 PLAYER AND ITS CONNECTIN ...
I'm also having problems with FM reception. I've got an outdoor aerial with a modern tuner (Sony STSDB900) as well as a Leak Troughline and a Quad FM4. Basically the Ref 9 killed my reception stone dead and I'm having to use a different amp for radio listening. It's not bad enough to want to give up with the amps but if there is a mod, I'm interested.
I'm using a fully grounded power supply with a transormer separating the amps from the power supply.
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I'm also having problems with FM reception. I've got an outdoor aerial with a modern tuner (Sony STSDB900) as well as a Leak Troughline and a Quad FM4. Basically the Ref 9 killed my reception stone dead and I'm having to use a different amp for radio listening.
Out of curiosity, I plugged in a generic dual-ear antenna to my receiver and sat it directly on top of the Ref 9s. The only way I could interject radio interference was if the antenna base was sitting directly on top of the amps. I only had to move it 1-2 inches away and everything cleared right up. What is the proximity of your tuner to the amps Timothy? BTW, welcome to AC!
-KJ
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Out of curiosity, I plugged in a generic dual-ear antenna to my receiver and sat it directly on top of the Ref 9s. The only way I could interject radio interference was if the antenna base was sitting directly on top of the amps. I only had to move it 1-2 inches away and everything cleared right up. What is the proximity of your tuner to the amps Timothy? BTW, welcome to AC!
-KJ
Hi KJ,
About 1.5 feet diagonally in an Arca cabinet. I'm actually going to go to the trouble of having a new aerial mast erected with new shielded down line. Hopefully the extra shielding will help.
Really impressed with the amp but it feels like a defeat to turn it off and switch to the T amp when I need the radio! I'll try what you suggest with the aerial on top of the chassis.
I can get digital (DAB) radio but the audio quality is poor when you move away from the analogue format. DAB isn't really hifi.
While the problem remains, it would probably prevent me from moving forwards and bi-amping at some later stage.
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In general, only Apogee users have to be concerned with the 0.1V DC offset, this is not an issue with all other speaker types.
The 24VDC to ground limit with the Definitive Technology is because of its built-in subwoofer amp tapping signals from the speaker terminals ...
I will use a TBI active sub (via speaker terminals, no alternatives)and Fostex speakers which have no crossovers and caps to filter out DC...
so do I have both issues to deal with??? I will receive my ref 8 soon..
is it possible for me to change the opamp mysel? I read something says that the DC offset is from the opamp?? If this opamp is not a Surface mount part, I will really like to do it myself...
any dc from amplifier speaker outputs can be SEEN on my tiny fostex derivers, which have very short p-p linerty.....
:nono:
thanks..
thanks... :mrgreen:
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I will use a TBI active sub (via speaker terminals, no alternatives)and Fostex speakers which have no crossovers and caps to filter out DC...
The small DC offset between the TWO speaker terminals should not hurt your speakers (we have no complain at all so far). The power from 0.1V DC is too small to cause any problem.
BUT, the 24V DC offset between EACH speaker terminal and ground will present problem for some active sub. I believe it is a problem for TBI active sub. Don't connect it to your TBI directly. Connect each speaker terminal to a capacitor to block out DC that can reach the TBI.
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Alright, another reviewer has chosen NuForce as his reference amp.
Erik Vermeulen, hifi.nl
"...The NuForce amplifiers have stolen my heart. They will no longer leave my house. I will use them as my reference amplifier from now on. Every amplifier which I will listen to in the future must be compared to NuForce."
http://www.hifi.nl/recensies.php?id=2429
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I bought four NX series Black gate 1000uf 25v..... I guess that's ok!??? they will not cut off any low frequency I guess??
Can i purcahse the litz wire from nuforce at all?? what brand is it??
thanks
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Jason,
Tell Casey to make sure the AC safety ground coming from the power cord is shorted to the chassis as close to the chassis entry point as possible. We're talking no more than a few millimeters here. DO NOT allow a "pig-tail" length of it jumper over to the PCB ground-plane first. That's probably were the problem is if you're bussing your ground over to the board. Then, just ground the PCB to the board stand-offs. Star grounding at one point may not work - wavelengths are too short and will rad ...
Has anyone from NuForce acknowledged Bob's thoughtful advice? If not, why not?
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I bought four NX series Black gate 1000uf 25v..... I guess that's ok!??? they will not cut off any low frequency I guess??
Can i purcahse the litz wire from nuforce at all?? what brand is it??
Oh well, after consulted with Casey, we realize that TBI subwoofer has a passive summing network and cap in series will not work.
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I rewired my entire system today and now have fm reception again. Apparently there was an issue with my four directv cables, ota antenna cable fim antenna cable and internet cable, all of which are rg6 or rg59 and were previously bound together. A swap out of one cable and a separation of the other cables has apparently solved the problem
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I rewired my entire system today and now have fm reception again. Apparently there was an issue with my four directv cables, ota antenna cable fim antenna cable and internet cable, all of which are rg6 or rg59 and were previously bound together. A swap out of one cable and a separation of the other cables has apparently solved the problem
I also now have FM radio. It took rebuilding the external aerial to do it (at some considerable cost).
I am also quite aware that when I walk in the door with a walkman radio on, I can hear the interference from the amps starting to kick in.
Clearly this is going to be affecting my neighbours (though I have no intention of letting them know that) . Third party responsibilities do also come in to play.
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The RFI should be low about 15 ft away from the amp and the walls will help to block the airborn RFI. I think your neighbor should be fine :). FM signal has very low energy and RF switching noise from the amp is enough to interfer with the weak stations. To improve FM reception in the house, use a shielded antenna and route if far away from the amp. The RFI is also tuner dependent. Some tuners are better at locking in the FM signal and placing an antenna 2 feet away from the amp is enough (according to one customer). But for others, you need a long shielded antenna.
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Question to Jason/nuforce... what's the frequency coming out of nuforce??
I wonder why people keep mentioning EMI problems with nuforce, It didn't cause any problem in this regard the first second I turned them on without any ERS paper..and my antenna was still few feet away from nuforce and my HDTV, computer and Nuforce are all from the same power conditoner...
I have ERS paper in it now... just don't know how much this is helping the EMI issue......
difference in sound quality from ERS!!?? I think it's better.... more organic feelings... a calmness....
but that's just my thinking...and it could be my hallucination...
I don't use F words lightely, but Nuforce is Fabulous!!! I like how "peaceful" the sound is now.. they are extremely accurate and have very good PRAT speed and detail... but still this calmness and grace is fantastic with cyberlight ICs+nuforce....
after 8/9 years in this never ending quest, i think I am happy finally with my amps, speakers and ICs..
It just so damn hard to have the absolute PRAT/speed and beauty all in one... but I am getting there with nuforce and cyberlight ICs..
..
MMM
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I wonder why people keep mentioning EMI problems with nuforce, It didn't cause any problem in this regard the first second I turned them on without any ERS paper..and my antenna was still few feet away from nuforce and my HDTV, computer and Nuforce are all from the same power conditoner...
You most likely did not notice anything due to a) your antenna was not directly next to the amps and b) you aren't using an old CRT tv. If you have your amps on and they sit within proximity of an older CRT tv you will encounter static in the image at certain frequencies (channels).
difference in sound quality from ERS!!?? I think it's better.... more organic feelings... a calmness.
Interesting. Where did you have your ERS placed relative to the amps themselves?
-KJ
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I don't use F words lightely, but Nuforce is Fabulous!!! I like how "peaceful" the sound is now.. they are extremely accurate and have very good PRAT speed and detail... but still this calmness and grace is fantastic with cyberlight ICs+nuforce....
Welcome to the club! 8) I have been running direct from my source to the Ref 9's via Cyberlights for some time now. Its a great way to go.
BTW, ERS hasn't done much with my Ref 9's. It probably does not attenuate the radiated frequencies of the Nuforces.
Cheers!
Mike
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one big piece to cover the under side of the top cover... one one inch strip of the paper plaed between the power supply unit and main circuit boad... this strip reachs aLL THE WAY TO THE SPEAKER WIRES/DONUT SHAPE STUFF, so the the paper is also in between the power supply and the the speaker wires/choke....another strip placed from between the speaker terminals and RCAs to between power supply and main circuit board...
this is because the speaker wires there... well just do whatever you want..hard to explain
this was done with new caps placed on the DC wires from power supply borad to the main circuit board... this is the best tweak sooo far!!..
I guess the caps have a whole lot more to offer than the paper.. ref 9 has this extra caps...but Ref 8 doesn't...