Electric car talk

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Russell Dawkins

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #60 on: 3 Feb 2011, 06:10 am »
I've decided to stay out of this thread.  Have fun guys  :thumb:
Charts, graphs, percentages, statistics and numbers should all have links to sources.  If not, then they really don't mean much.  Please back claims with support.

Hmmm. I sense someone who has a weakness for debate!  :D

persisting1

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #61 on: 3 Feb 2011, 06:12 am »
Hmmm. I sense someone who has a weakness for debate!  :D

Ha, you got me  :lol:

django11

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Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #62 on: 3 Feb 2011, 12:56 pm »


I believe that we will one day look back at the whole global warming nonsense as a bigger joke than the Y2K bug. So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.
 



Dare I say " flat earthers and naysayers"? :green:  Have you put in much time looking for evidence?  It always amazes me when people just flippantly reject the work of literally thousand of scientists.  Their evidence:  it's cool outside.  "Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the 20th century".  I am not sure you could come to that conclusion with  casual observation.

"The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic global warming is occurring." Wikipedia   That is a lot of scientists who agree...

Hey they could be wrong but I would bet that if they are it is by a matter of degree and not kind.

I am willing to keep an open mind on speaker cable but not global warming...

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #63 on: 3 Feb 2011, 02:38 pm »
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Dare I say " flat earthers and naysayers"?

That's funny! I love that response.

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I am willing to keep an open mind on speaker cable but not global warming...

I am willing to keep an open mind to both, but so called scientist that falsified information about the whole thing has me pretty put off. And there are credible scientist that feel that solar flares are making a larger contribution to changing climate than we are. To many of the experts are split or disagree. So time will tell who was right. In the mean time we need to be responsible but not make rash decisions based on the most popular belief that the wind blew in at the moment.

JLM

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Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #64 on: 3 Feb 2011, 02:55 pm »
Yes, we have limited petroleum resources (and ability to extract them).  With China, India, and the 3rd world’s increasing demand for petroleum there is obvious case of demand exceeding supply coming upon us.  And wake up, we have some of cheapest energy costs in the world.  How long do you expect that to last in this global economy?

Yes, Virginia there is a global warming, decades of measurements from all over the world has confirmed it.  Whether its man made or not really doesn’t matter, so don’t take it personally, just accept it and deal with it.

The overall environmental impact, cradle to grave, of electrics or hybrid electrics is higher than an efficient/comparable petroleum or alcohol fueled car.  (My Toyota Corrolla gets 36 mpg, costs thousands less than a Prius, and won’t need $5,000 worth of new batteries every 125,000 miles).  Battery production and disposal is a very nasty environmentally hazardous business. 

Batteries must become cheaper, lighter, much easier on the environment, quicker to charge, and have longer usable lives before electric or electric hybrid vehicles make sense.

Mass transit for urban areas must be promoted that can easily be supplemented by iGO or Zip cars (monthly leasing of limited use shared cars).  How does a monthly transit pass plus $15 per month (includes everything) for 5 hours of a car sound?

The far better long term solution is fuel cells (another energy storage like batteries, not a fuel burning mechanism).  Fuel cells refill quickly, don’t weigh much, and don’t pollute excessively to create.  This is where R & D should be going (to reduce up front cost and extend their useful life).  Look at the Honda Clarity.

The same fuel cell technology could be used at home to produce hydrogen during non-peak hours and then stored for use in vehicles or for domestic needs.  Hydrogen tanks are no more dangerous than gasoline or propane tanks.  Solar powered hydrogen stations (that look like a big Coke machine) are already in service in Norway.

Batteries (or fuel cells) are charged from large power plants, most of which burn coal (still available in great quantities).  Atmospheric emissions from coal plants are actually quite low as these big, fixed, steady operating machines, thanks to the EPA now burn very cleanly.

I’ve worked on and in nuclear power plants and am an advocate, but in the current domestic political setting it would take decades to open a new one, and of course there is always the concern for how to dispose of the waste.

But the U.S. electrical infrastructure is antiquated and overloaded.  Adding more large energy generating nodes (where cooling and rail services, let alone the grid to handle it) to address our increasing demand or even to replace existing sources won’t be easy to do.

Natural gas extraction, a new technology just now coming on board, will provide over 100 years of energy domestic demand from reserves right here in the U.S.  Smaller natural gas turbine plants could be more easily located, cheaper to build, with almost negligible environmental impact.

So the smartest short term move would be to convert our coal/diesel/gasoline economy to natural gas for power plants and vehicles.  (We had a propane truck growing up, which was more powerful than gas, but we kids had to pump it into the tank.)

It’s always best to produce electricity close to point of use and to use “free” energy (solar, wind, wave/current, and geothermal).  With on-site storage and natural gas fired peaking plants a more efficient/distributed solution will soon be available.

Geothermal in its many variations can improve heating/cooling efficiencies in buildings by up to 20 fold and by doing so reduce overall electrical demand.  With solar/wind sourcing and on-site hydrogen storage, most households (houses and cars) could be energy self-sufficient.

sts9fan

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #65 on: 3 Feb 2011, 03:59 pm »
Watch Gasland and get back to me.

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #66 on: 3 Feb 2011, 04:44 pm »
Good post JLM.

I am a little iffy on fuel cells working out though. For one, a solar Hydrogen generating station the size of a small convenience store only produces enough Hydrogen (from Water) for a single car being used all week for daily driving. Plus the fuel cells are super expensive to make right now.

I completely agree though with all of this...

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Natural gas extraction, a new technology just now coming on board, will provide over 100 years of energy domestic demand from reserves right here in the U.S.  Smaller natural gas turbine plants could be more easily located, cheaper to build, with almost negligible environmental impact.

So the smartest short term move would be to convert our coal/diesel/gasoline economy to natural gas for power plants and vehicles.  (We had a propane truck growing up, which was more powerful than gas, but we kids had to pump it into the tank.)

It’s always best to produce electricity close to point of use and to use “free” energy (solar, wind, wave/current, and geothermal).  With on-site storage and natural gas fired peaking plants a more efficient/distributed solution will soon be available.

Geothermal in its many variations can improve heating/cooling efficiencies in buildings by up to 20 fold and by doing so reduce overall electrical demand.  With solar/wind sourcing and on-site hydrogen storage, most households (houses and cars) could be energy self-sufficient.

Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.

BobRex

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #67 on: 3 Feb 2011, 07:15 pm »
Well, distributing the energy from Jellystone would be an issue.  The current infrastructure couldn't handle it.

But, if we start extracting heat energy from the earth, will there be any unintended consequences?  I can see it now - Mankind is responsible for global cooling! Weather patterns changing! Manhattan flooded! The entire east coast buried under massive snow!  No wait... that was just a dumb movie, it can't really happen!

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #68 on: 3 Feb 2011, 08:53 pm »
Watch Gasland and get back to me.

That was an eyeopening documentary on the new way that Natural Gas is harvested,  Exempt from EPA oversite.  It is a very controversial process, Fracking. 

People don't even see these sites.  Now that I know what they look like you can see them when you fly across the country and drive outside of the area. 

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #69 on: 3 Feb 2011, 09:03 pm »

I agree with JLM.  It is a combination of energy souces that will fuel our needs. 

While labor is cheap in China today they will find they want "Money for Nuthin and Chicks for free" and a better standard of living.  When a billion Chinese start thier cars in the morning look west for the cloud coming your way. 

The cost of energy will be going up. 

Would you drive an electric auto that was reasonably priced?  If it cost you 3 Cents a mile to operate? 

 

Russell Dawkins

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #70 on: 3 Feb 2011, 09:15 pm »
Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.

I have thought for decades now that the solution lies in advanced geothermal - advanced in the sense that the drilling technology is developed to the point that we can get down to very deep (by current standards) depths and tap into the heat of the earth's massive molten core. I really don't think our demands would make a significant difference to such a thermal mass.

If the drilling technology were appropriate, it would be cost effective for every populous region to have its own power plant, regardless of proximity to geothermal hot spots, such as Yellowstone, thus eliminating many long distance transmission challenges. One problem that would emerge, since the assumed common denominator would be electricity, is that of how short term storage of power is managed.

The fact that this would contribute to the autonomy of various challenged regions of the world who now depend critically on outside sources for fundamental energy needs would make this, if it became feasible, a political hot potato due to the power the oil lobby now wields.

As far as I know, Japan is the only country developing ultra-deep drilling technology, although I think many more might be and keeping quiet about it - or they should be. Japan has a history of energy awareness since they realized how critically dependent they were on outside sources for oil.


Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #71 on: 3 Feb 2011, 09:44 pm »
Hey Russell,

Here in Sonoma we have two companies that are using geothermal to produce power and interestingly enough dispose of sewage.  Here in Santa Rosa we send them treated sewage via a pipeline and they send us electricity.


Occam

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #72 on: 3 Feb 2011, 10:08 pm »
....
Geothermal is the most overlooked. There is enough heat under Yellow Stone National Park to power the whole US for 100's of years.

OT-
Indeed... Actually, there is enough heat under the Yellowstone Caldera to wipe out human civilization. Yellowstone sits atop a supervolcano. Luckily, its been about 640,000 years since it last blew, the third time in the last 2.4 million years.
The stats are with us, but when she blows, it could be game over for those still residing on Earth.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/08/yellowstone/achenbach-text

Cheeseboy

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #73 on: 4 Feb 2011, 01:17 am »
I think I saw that movie.  It was The Day after Tommorrow, Y2K or 2012 I can't remember which. 

I think Steam Engines could make a comeback.

JLM

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Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #74 on: 4 Feb 2011, 02:24 am »
Shallow geothermal is available almost anywhere and uses the thermal mass of the ground, with little net heat gain or loss.  The only energy input is pumping.  There are four kinds:

1. Non-contact pass thru (if you have a river nearby)
2. Non-contact recirculating (horizontal or vertical) using the Earth or a pond as a radiator
3. ATES (uses one side of an aquifier for heat and other side for cooling)
4. BTES (similar to non-contact recirculating, but uses the Earth as a thermal battery


Deep geothermal uses the heat of nearby magma which obviously limits where it can be obtained.  In these cases a power plant is built so that electricity can be produced locally.

JLM

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Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #75 on: 4 Feb 2011, 02:28 am »
Cheeseboy,

Is 3 cents per mile the average life cycle cost? 

I'd rather pay 4 cents per mile and have 4 wheels (I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.)   :roll:

But up here in the great white north, and driving 40,000 miles per year (wifey does another 30,000 miles per year), I'd need a minimum 100 - 200 mile range.

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #76 on: 4 Feb 2011, 02:32 am »
Russell, I completely agree. Drill deep enough and you'll have plenty of heat. Pump water down the hole and get steam out the other end.

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Indeed... Actually, there is enough heat under the Yellowstone Caldera to wipe out human civilization.


That could well be true.

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Yellowstone sits atop a supervolcano. Luckily, its been about 640,000 years since it last blew, the third time in the last 2.4 million years.

I am personally not one to believe that the earth is anywhere near that old. That to me is too much speculation and takes too much of a blind leap of faith to believe.

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #77 on: 4 Feb 2011, 02:33 am »
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(I've seen the Top Gear episodes of the 3 wheeled Robin tipping over.)
   

Jeremy was hilarious in that episode.  :thumb:

mfsoa

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #78 on: 4 Feb 2011, 03:10 am »
The earth is at least one thousand times older than 2.4 million years.

The great leap of faith is to tell thousands and thousands of scientists, studying dozens of different disciplines, at practically every one of the universities on the planet, that you have more evidence than they do for the age of the earth.

Danny Richie

Re: Electric car talk
« Reply #79 on: 4 Feb 2011, 03:21 am »
The earth is at least one thousand times older than 2.4 million years.

The great leap of faith is to tell thousands and thousands of scientists, studying dozens of different disciplines, at practically every one of the universities on the planet, that you have more evidence than they do for the age of the earth.

To each his own. My evidence comes from the one that created us all, the heavens and the earth. I live in "one nation under (him)". All of my currency says that it is "in (him) that we trust".... Maybe you've heard of him. I can't think of a greater authority. I'll stick with him.