Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release

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Marius

Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1340 on: 3 Dec 2015, 06:08 pm »
I'm certain that DLNA is bitperfect lossless provided that your controller and server are setup to not transcode. As a quick sanity test, I am streaming a 192/24 file with foobar2000 as the server and bubbleupnp as the controller at this moment. I haven't used Squeeze in a while, but I recall it being capable of bit perfect playback as well. Airplay is supposedly bitperfect at 44.1/16 but it has clocking issues (among others) that hinder the sound quality somewhat. That being said, I can definitely hear an improvement when comparing an airport express and BDP in shairplay mode when both are being fed to the BDA-2.

Thx Gary,

I'll check the transcode setting. It might also have to do with the server power. My Synology has issues playing movies now and then again , maybe hires audio shouldn't be an issue.

Still confuses sometimes , using 3 machines instead of 2... The bdp being the middleman.

Cheers Marius

vklyushnikov

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1341 on: 3 Dec 2015, 07:05 pm »
I'm certain that DLNA is bitperfect lossless provided that your controller and server are setup to not transcode. As a quick sanity test, I am streaming a 192/24 file with foobar2000 as the server and bubbleupnp as the controller at this moment. I haven't used Squeeze in a while, but I recall it being capable of bit perfect playback as well. Airplay is supposedly bitperfect at 44.1/16 but it has clocking issues (among others) that hinder the sound quality somewhat. That being said, I can definitely hear an improvement when comparing an airport express and BDP in shairplay mode when both are being fed to the BDA-2.
I would say that squeezelite instance provided by MM will never output  bit perfect audio because it is not configured to use any valid audio device - so it uses default ALSA output and goes through software mixer. Good news are that startup script allows to run squeezelite with any valid configuration settings - but this requires Linux scripting skills of course. I'm also a bit sceptical about DLNA capabilities of BDP - gMediaRender is buggy and outdated project. Did you ever measure its output for bit perfectness and jitter?

unincognito

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1342 on: 3 Dec 2015, 07:22 pm »
I would say that squeezelite instance provided by MM will never output  bit perfect audio because it is not configured to use any valid audio device - so it uses default ALSA output and goes through software mixer. Good news are that startup script allows to run squeezelite with any valid configuration settings - but this requires Linux scripting skills of course. I'm also a bit sceptical about DLNA capabilities of BDP - gMediaRender is buggy and outdated project. Did you ever measure its output for bit perfectness and jitter?

You can't get any more direct then ALSA unless you write software (not a script) to interface with the hardware directly

Marius

Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1343 on: 3 Dec 2015, 07:37 pm »
HI Chris,


Which means in terms of bit perfect hires audio..?
MPD is to be preferred? Since it is the only dedicated software for the hardware on the BDOP itself , the other options are software renderers?


Cheers,
Marius






 
You can't get any more direct then ALSA unless you write software (not a script) to interface with the hardware directly

gdayton

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1344 on: 3 Dec 2015, 07:53 pm »
UPnP isn't always bit perfect right out of the box. It depends a lot on your server setup and even options in the client. UPnP is also a giant standard that is implemented piecemeal by everyone. One of the many reasons we decided to focus on MPD with the BDP is that there are inherent instabilities with UPnP, but it's quite possible to setup a stable UPnP environment with the BDP. I've gone days and weeks with DLNA renderer on as the primary playback method with no trouble. I still use it as a quick and easy way to stream content directly from my Android phone to the BDP regularly.

No, we haven't and do not intend to measure the output quality of every offered service. To fully develop and maintain each of them would require a much larger engineering investment in a single branch of our product line than would make sense.

MPD is and shall remain our primary focus until Chris and the rest of the Bryston team decide to seek a better solution. However, we will actively maintain the other services with an appropriate amount of resource allocation. That Bryston even offers these as viable alternatives to our main intended use case is a major benefit to the small minority of users to whom it matters. I don't know of any other commercially available comparable unit that can satisfy the variety of use cases that can be addressed with the BDP. Hopefully among all the available control options, you can find one that suits you.

Let me know specifically what issues you have with the BDP and I'll be happy to try and help you work through them. We want all of our customers to be glad they own Bryston.

Marius

Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1345 on: 3 Dec 2015, 08:00 pm »
Not sure whether your addressing my post here, i didn't have real issues, was just responding to an earlier post in the thread.


But since you ask: it would be wonderful to be able to distantly operate our BDP, and read/write files to it, update the software etc etc. Ive asked Chris before, not sure its on the todo list though ;)


Bryston  can reach our Bdp's in service mode, i must be possible for us owners to do the same?


Agree 100% with your post though, and certainly glad to own a (full) Bryston (setup)  :thumb:


Cheers,
Marius






UPnP isn't always bit perfect right out of the box. It depends a lot on your server setup and even options in the client. UPnP is also a giant standard that is implemented piecemeal by everyone. One of the many reasons we decided to focus on MPD with the BDP is that there are inherent instabilities with UPnP, but it's quite possible to setup a stable UPnP environment with the BDP. I've gone days and weeks with DLNA renderer on as the primary playback method with no trouble. I still use it as a quick and easy way to stream content directly from my Android phone to the BDP regularly.

No, we haven't and do not intend to measure the output quality of every offered service. To fully develop and maintain each of them would require a much larger engineering investment in a single branch of our product line than would make sense.

MPD is and shall remain our primary focus until Chris and the rest of the Bryston team decide to seek a better solution. However, we will actively maintain the other services with an appropriate amount of resource allocation. That Bryston even offers these as viable alternatives to our main intended use case is a major benefit to the small minority of users to whom it matters. I don't know of any other commercially available comparable unit that can satisfy the variety of use cases that can be addressed with the BDP. Hopefully among all the available control options, you can find one that suits you.

Let me know specifically what issues you have with the BDP and I'll be happy to try and help you work through them. We want all of our customers to be glad they own Bryston.

gdayton

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1346 on: 3 Dec 2015, 08:22 pm »
Sorry Marius, I meant it for vkylushnikov as well. I should have been more clear.

Remote operation would be fun - especially for starting up some music while my wife is asleep in bed and I'm traveling  :lol:
You can use BubbleUPnP server to share your BDP's library to the internet which would make it possible to access your music remotely. You can configure transcoding and so forth that way as well.

At my house, I host my library on an NAS (a home-rolled version built with otherwise obsolete computers) and let other interested machines access it locally or over the internet. On the LAN, I let 2 BDPs access it as well as a tablet computer my daughter uses.

I also run subsonic (www.subsonic.org) so I can access my library remotely. Besides library access, what remote features would you like on the BDP that you couldn't get by setting up a VPN on your router or on an always-on computer on your LAN?

Marius

Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1347 on: 3 Dec 2015, 08:34 pm »
No worries, just made sure i wasn't missing out on your question.


I also have my library backed-up/copied om my NAS, which i can reach remotely without issues. Dedicated Synology apps make that possible among others.


Made me want to reach the drives attached to the BDP in the same way. Also it would be nice to be able to update the settings/firmware remotely, since often things take a while to finish (updating databases, creating Artist view images etc etc)


Even better would be to send commands to the BDP, and play the files on whatever handheld you're holding. Of course thats something else, but Chris hinted he'd be checking on that some time. Imagine sitting behind your laptop, firing up MM (locally and remotely) and play the music on your laptop (replace laptop with Mobile phone/ PC/ tablet or what have you) I now use Plex for that playing the files on my NAS. Hope Plex can be an inspiration for the further development of MM.




just some of the things that would be really wonderful.


You say i can do some of these things already, setting up a VPN on my router. I'm not sure how that would enable me to reach my BDP just yet, maybe you could clarify a bit more? Of course i would love to be able to do al this from within MM, and not have to rely on yet another third party. Lets keep things simple as possible.


Cheers,
Marius


Sorry Marius, I meant it for vkylushnikov as well. I should have been more clear.

Remote operation would be fun - especially for starting up some music while my wife is asleep in bed and I'm traveling  :lol:
You can use BubbleUPnP server to share your BDP's library to the internet which would make it possible to access your music remotely. You can configure transcoding and so forth that way as well.

At my house, I host my library on an NAS (a home-rolled version built with otherwise obsolete computers) and let other interested machines access it locally or over the internet. On the LAN, I let 2 BDPs access it as well as a tablet computer my daughter uses.

I also run subsonic (www.subsonic.org) so I can access my library remotely. Besides library access, what remote features would you like on the BDP that you couldn't get by setting up a VPN on your router or on an always-on computer on your LAN?

vklyushnikov

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1348 on: 3 Dec 2015, 08:48 pm »
You can't get any more direct then ALSA unless you write software (not a script) to interface with the hardware directly
Chris, I don't quite understand your message. What I mean is that running squeezelite in bitperfect mode requires passing in command line ALSA device name with hw: prefix. Without it player uses so called ALSA default output - and audio goes through additional software mixer level so it is never considered bitperfect. It is very easy to verify even by ears - sound is quiet and flat.

Grit

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1349 on: 3 Dec 2015, 10:54 pm »
I get the value of a web-based interface. It saves programming time. And the BDP interface is light years ahead of what it was when initially released.

The present interface works just fine on my desktop and I have no problems. I WOULD prefer that when I hover over an icon with my mouse, I get a pop-up window telling me what the icon will do. Unfortunately, the BDP interface seems unoptimized for cell-phone size use. Even on my tablet, I get problems when I overscroll or zoom the page and run into a blue background. That's one advantage of writing a specific app and creating your own graphics.

Perhaps a mobile vs desktop web version would be a good solution?

- Garrett

hipp

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1350 on: 4 Dec 2015, 03:25 am »
Thanks Gary for that info. I don't have the techno to operate the BDP without the Mpad or MM. So my post was not to knock MM, but to see why a Bryston ios App was not forthcoming. James kindly responded with the reason, and it is noted.
Care to elaborate? Well I could compare the use of Mpad to MM with for example simply looking for a random song to play within my entire collection in alphabetical sequence, but I feel that I can just use the Mpad, although I am really trying to work with the MM. Maybe I don't have a full understanding of its operation. (My artwork for example on MM appears on only about 50% of the albums, and not on individual tracks and sometimes the album artwork shown when playing the track is different to the artwork when I look at the album). But MM also has some nice features that are not available on Mpad. Its really the sound that counts to me and the upgraded BDP-2 is, to my ears anyway, quite brilliant. I will continue to learn and work with MM as it it evolves.
Thank You
Howard

vklyushnikov

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1351 on: 4 Dec 2015, 10:30 am »
I get the value of a web-based interface. It saves programming time. And the BDP interface is light years ahead of what it was when initially released.

The present interface works just fine on my desktop and I have no problems. I WOULD prefer that when I hover over an icon with my mouse, I get a pop-up window telling me what the icon will do. Unfortunately, the BDP interface seems unoptimized for cell-phone size use. Even on my tablet, I get problems when I overscroll or zoom the page and run into a blue background. That's one advantage of writing a specific app and creating your own graphics.

Perhaps a mobile vs desktop web version would be a good solution?

- Garrett
This is what I talked about some times ago. Native IOS apps provide much better user experience then web UI - I cannot even compare MM with JRemote or IPeng 9.  Unfortunately I feel that Bryston is unable to develop some sophisticated mobile app - simply because they are not software development company and have limited resources for this.  Solution is to provide more choice for third party controllers. MPD ecosystem is not very popular between third party app developers but I see a great alternative - Logitech Media Server and Squeezelite. LMS provides enormous number of functionality, very strong album database and great choice of mobile controller apps such as IPeng 9. This solution is a base for several great audio Linux distributives such as Daphile and Vortexbox  and already used in some well-known hi-end servers. I already experimenting with running this staff from BDP startup script, seems that BDP-2 has enough processor power to run both server and player locally. Hope Chris and Gary will pay attention to this direction in future because more choice is great for customers and should be great for Bryston.

Marius

Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1352 on: 4 Dec 2015, 11:14 am »
whether dedicated app or web sockets, i think James, Chris and Gary stated their viewpoint in this extensively by now. As much as id love an app, sockets work fine most of the time, MM needs some ironing out here and there, esthetically and functionally, then again Mpad has its quirks too...


What i don't understand as of yet is how eg Ipeng, mentioned by vklyushnikov, has all the services included for a mere 9 dollars, while Bryston can't/won't add most of these like Tunein, Qobuz, Spotify, and the likes. I feel that flexibility is the biggest leap between other software products and the current MM, integration to services, we now have to stream from our mobile devices to shairplay (with its inherent loss of quality) instead of direct login from within the MM software.


     
Even the very modest Cantata app has some of these:


 

Hope this could be an extra effort on Brystons behalf.
Thanks for the continuing progress being made!


Cheers,
Marius


 
This is what I talked about some times ago. Native IOS apps provide much better user experience then web UI - I cannot even compare MM with JRemote or IPeng 9.  Unfortunately I feel that Bryston is unable to develop some sophisticated mobile app - simply because they are not software development company and have limited resources for this.  Solution is to provide more choice for third party controllers. MPD ecosystem is not very popular between third party app developers but I see a great alternative - Logitech Media Server and Squeezelite. LMS provides enormous number of functionality, very strong album database and great choice of mobile controller apps such as IPeng 9. This solution is a base for several great audio Linux distributives such as Daphile and Vortexbox  and already used in some well-known hi-end servers. I already experimenting with running this staff from BDP startup script, seems that BDP-2 has enough processor power to run both server and player locally. Hope Chris and Gary will pay attention to this direction in future because more choice is great for customers and should be great for Bryston.

unincognito

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1353 on: 4 Dec 2015, 02:49 pm »
Chris, I don't quite understand your message. What I mean is that running squeezelite in bitperfect mode requires passing in command line ALSA device name with hw: prefix. Without it player uses so called ALSA default output - and audio goes through additional software mixer level so it is never considered bitperfect. It is very easy to verify even by ears - sound is quiet and flat.

Thats not true, if you look at the alsamixer, the default audio device is just the first listed audio device and you have the same advantages/disadvantages if you specified an individual output device.  Even if I did specify an individual hardware device in the command, it wouldn't sound any better or worse then selecting "use the default".

unincognito

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1354 on: 4 Dec 2015, 02:50 pm »
whether dedicated app or web sockets, i think James, Chris and Gary stated their viewpoint in this extensively by now. As much as id love an app, sockets work fine most of the time, MM needs some ironing out here and there, esthetically and functionally, then again Mpad has its quirks too...


What i don't understand as of yet is how eg Ipeng, mentioned by vklyushnikov, has all the services included for a mere 9 dollars, while Bryston can't/won't add most of these like Tunein, Qobuz, Spotify, and the likes. I feel that flexibility is the biggest leap between other software products and the current MM, integration to services, we now have to stream from our mobile devices to shairplay (with its inherent loss of quality) instead of direct login from within the MM software.


Hope this could be an extra effort on Brystons behalf.
Thanks for the continuing progress being made!


Cheers,
Marius

Hi Marius,

thanks for the suggestions

unincognito

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1355 on: 4 Dec 2015, 02:53 pm »
Thanks Gary for that info. I don't have the techno to operate the BDP without the Mpad or MM. So my post was not to knock MM, but to see why a Bryston ios App was not forthcoming. James kindly responded with the reason, and it is noted.
Care to elaborate? Well I could compare the use of Mpad to MM with for example simply looking for a random song to play within my entire collection in alphabetical sequence, but I feel that I can just use the Mpad, although I am really trying to work with the MM. Maybe I don't have a full understanding of its operation. (My artwork for example on MM appears on only about 50% of the albums, and not on individual tracks and sometimes the album artwork shown when playing the track is different to the artwork when I look at the album). But MM also has some nice features that are not available on Mpad. Its really the sound that counts to me and the upgraded BDP-2 is, to my ears anyway, quite brilliant. I will continue to learn and work with MM as it it evolves.
Thank You
Howard

So you'd like us to provide a way to narrow a search down to a single song and continue improving cover art support?

Cheers,
Chris

vklyushnikov

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1356 on: 4 Dec 2015, 03:11 pm »
Thats not true, if you look at the alsamixer, the default audio device is just the first listed audio device and you have the same advantages/disadvantages if you specified an individual output device.  Even if I did specify an individual hardware device in the command, it wouldn't sound any better or worse then selecting "use the default".

Chris, believe or not but it really sounds bad with default output and I don't think that this is something special  for my BDP2 - it has latest version of firmware :) You can always check by yourself. You are correct - it uses first listed device but includes software mixer into signal path - seems that this is a cause of reduced volume. But I don't mind very much about this - because I start my own instance of squeezelite 1.8 in startup script - with correct output device and other settings. And there are some more serious issues with squeezelite on BDP2 - it sounds worse under root and better under 'bryston' user. Don't understand why - because it uses realtime thread priority under root and should sound better with it in theory.
« Last Edit: 4 Dec 2015, 09:37 pm by vklyushnikov »

James Tanner

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1357 on: 4 Dec 2015, 03:25 pm »
December 2015

Hi Folks,

We have made a lot of improvements in the ‘WEB’ based ‘Manic Moose’ interface which comes pre-installed on the Bryston BDP Digital Players.

Please see the attached – my thanks to Gary for putting this together.

James Tanner




Rarely do all people agree on the quality of a particular user interface. Reference the great Windows vs. Macintosh debate for an excellent example.

Of the many features that set audiophile music players apart are the equal number of unique user interfaces that are designed for each player. Most players require a proprietary interface designed along with the hardware. Regardless of the merits the hardware brings, many players live or die by how well you relate to their user interface.

Though there are certainly some universally accepted standards included in everyone's definition of a quality UI (such as stability and speed), most people judge UI quality in terms of intuitiveness, attractiveness, and feature access. Each of these criteria can only be judged by an individual.

When Bryston designed Manic Moose, we knew we wanted to stick with a web-based UI.

Everybody who's a potential BDP owner has devices with web browsers ranging from desktops computers, laptops, iOS, Windows, and Android portables. By having a web based UI, we avoided a serious pitfall—
requiring a user to purchase a device to control the BDP. Furthermore, we avoided the ever changing whim of operating system programmers which often requires re-writes of programs with every major OS revision.

Bryston's BDP lets you use whatever device you're already comfortable with to control it.
We spent over a year developing the new UI for Manic Moose before we ever released beta versions into the wild, and have been making continuous improvements since it's introduction in 2014 based not only on our own usage patterns but the copious detailed feedback obtained from our customers on forums, phone calls, e-mails and customer support sessions. At this point, we are very proud of Manic Moose and its ease of use, feature set, stability, and more.

Yet, some people never warmed up to it just like others haven't warmed up to the software provided by any number of other audiophile companies. A huge advantage of Bryston BDP players which may well be unique to us is that you can use a vast array of other third party software to control your BDP by selectively enabling options in the Services menu. Many of these options may already be familiar to you.
In the BDP's default configuration of using MPD as the audio engine, you can use the excellent mPaD and mPoD apps for iPad and iPhone/iPod Touch respectively. Many BDP users have been using these since the early days of the BDP-1 at the end of the last decade and have enjoyed their units immensely.

Android offers many different MPD clients as well. Perhaps the best of them is MPDroid. A new player for Windows computers and handhelds is called Chimney. It is a beautiful player with superb usability. You can also configure the BDP to be used with the DLNA standard. The UPnP and DLNA universe is full of great control options. The BDP can independently act as a DLNA client, server and renderer meaning that whether you host your music library on a DLNA enabled NAS or even via locally connected hard drive, you can use software such as BubbleUPnP available on Android to play back your music. This app for Android is particuarly excellent in that it is intuitive, stable, and is feature rich.

Those of us who began our digital audio involvement with the early days of Squeezebox will be glad to see that the BDP can be configured as a Squeezebox emulator meaning that if you run Logitech Media Server (a free software) on your computer, you can use a variety of available Squeezebox control apps available on nearly all common operating systems.

If you remain steeped in the Apple Macintosh universe, you can even setup the BDP as an Airplay target using the "Shairplay" service. Doing so allows you to use the Apple Remote app, or even to stream audio directly from iOS devices to the BDP.
DLNA and Squeezebox can both play bit perfect high resolution audio, and Shairplay through a BDP still sounds better than an Apple TV or Airport Express.

As digital audio playback matures, we are all learning that music downloads are so much more than CD replacements. As our virtual libraries expand, we require user interfaces that match our individual ideals of easy and enjoyable. Though the BDP's built in Manic Moose UI has proven popular in the nearly 2 years since release, those who find it less than appealing should enjoy the excellent variety of other control options available.

Gary Dayton
Product Specialist
Bryston Ltd.

blueheaven

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1358 on: 4 Dec 2015, 05:32 pm »

Bump

I have a 9BSST-2-which I love- and I have just ordered a BDP-1 USB. I am replacing my seven year old Mac Mini with the BDP-1. All my Apple Lossless music is stored on a NAS and I plan to configure MM to access if from the NAS. I would like to import my iTunes playlists into MM. I know I can export them from iTunes as m3u but I can't find any information on the web or this forum about how to import them into MM. Is this possible? Any suggestions?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: 6 Dec 2015, 07:48 pm by blueheaven »

cmarinsr

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Re: Manic Moose (S2) - BDP's third major firmware release
« Reply #1359 on: 4 Dec 2015, 09:20 pm »
Hi James,

I agree that the BDP offers a rich set of options allowing to be controlled by a variety of control apps. The only trouble is that MPD if far ahead in terms of SQ. In my system, DLNA lacks acoustic weight and Squeezelite is only marginally better. I'm quite happy with MPaD, but having to switch to MM interface to access Tidal is a big inconvenience. Furthermore, having to make sure that the queue is empty and the inability to mix local tracks with the ones from Tidal in the same playlist just makes things worse. Not to mention that moment when trying to access artist discography, in Tidal, and the web page start flickering while loading images... Please don't get me wrong... I love my BDPs SQ with MPD... After all, it fully replaced a CDX-2, in my system...

Carmen