AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: I.Greyhound Fan on 9 Jul 2018, 11:12 pm
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Frank loaned me this amp so I could write a review and compare it to my Pass Labs X250 amp. I have had it hooked up for 2 days now and I am very impressed. The SET 400 is 225wpc at 8 ohms and Frank says it will double its power at 4 ohms. My Pass amp is 250wpc and 500wpc respectively at 8 and 4 ohms. The rest of my system consists of a BAT VK-51se tube preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC running with a Regen powered by a Terdak LPS. Music source is a dedicated audio headless desktop custom built computer. Music player is Bug Head versions 8.6 and nontallion 10.04. Cables- WireWorld Starlight Red usb, Cullen Gold Power cord (amp), AQ Columbia 72v XLR's and Belden 8402 XLR's. Speakers are Magnepan QR 1.6's.
My dual Martin Logan subs were turned off as the SET 400 is single ended and my system is fully balanced, so I had to use my female XLR adapters from subs to use with the amp. To keep apples to apples, I listened to the music tracks with my Pass Amp without the subs.
Now for the sound. With the very first few notes, my son and I looked at each other and said "Wow, this sounds great". As we listened to the first album, Anne Bisson's Blue Mind, it was very apparent that this was a special amp. I hate to use audio cliche's but the sound is very natural and organic. It has great musicality and is extremely smooth and liquid sounding, more so than my Pass amp. However, it did not round the edges off like the Pass. Leading edges or attack if you will, were a tad crisper in a good and more natural way. The overall tone leaned just a shade to the warmer and darker side, although my BAT preamp may be responsible for the dark sound for those of you not familiar with the BAT sound. I also have my settings in Bug Head to lend to a slightly warmer, darker sound. Bass was deep and very well controlled. Drum kicks were powerful and convincingly real. There was just a hint of low end bloom contributing to the rich toned mid range and musicality. Speaking of the mid range, this is where it is at with this amp. It is tonally rich and there is good texture. Vocals and horns are full bodied. Piano sound delicate and full bodied at the same time. The notes had excellent decay. There was no harshness or glare. High frequencies like cymbals had good air and sounded real. Sibilants were tamed as well. For those of you familiar with Blue Coast Records, "Blue Coast Collection The E.S.E Sessons", Jayne Selke's song "Slow Day" is as sibilant as they come and the SET 400 did a great job of taming them without sounding rolled off.
Where my Pass amp had the edge was in texture, air and sound stage. The SET 400 has good texture, air and transparency with a wide sound stage but my Pass had more. The sound stage with the Pass extends beyond my 17' wide room and there is more front to back depth. Female vocals, horns and piano had a bit more texture. There was just more separation between instruments and vocals. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the SET 400 is bad in this area. It actually excel's in this area but the Pass just does it a bit better. But I would expect the Pass to at its almost $7,000 price point vs $2199 for the SET 400. I also own a Parasound A21 amp which now sells for about $2300. The A21 does not even come close to the SET's performance. The A21 sounds midfi in comparison.
I have to say that the SET 400 is my favorite AVA amp (although I have not reviewed the DVA 850 mono's) and on par with the R series amps. Tonally, the SET 400 sounds completely different from the R series amps.
If I ever have to replace my Pass X250, the SET 400 will be high on my list as a replacement.
Highlights of the amp are-
To die for tonally rich and musical mid range
Organic sound, smooth and liquid
No glare, grain or edginess
Tight, controlled, powerful bass
High frequencies like cymbals have good air natural sound.
Plenty of power
Black background with no detectable hiss.
Low points- None at this price point. I really could not find fault with the amp.
Music used for review purposes-
Charles Llyod and the Marvels with Lucinda Williams
Anne Bisson- Blue Mind
Blue Coast Collection- The E.S.E sessions
Paul Burner Band
Chris Jones- Roadhouses and Automobiles
Nils Lofgren-Acoustic Live
Sara Barelles- Brave Enough
Eva Cassidy- Live At Blue's Alley
and a few others
Best Regards,
Larry
Addendum-
I did some listening last night and I decided that I really love the sound of this amp. The mid range, musicality and liquid sound of this amp is intoxicating. I could listen to it if for hours without fatigue. It definitely conveys the emotion of the music. I could certainly see this amp selling in the $5,000 to $6,000 range in stores.
I also changed some settings on my Bug Head music player to a more neutral sound and was able to remove most if not all of the darkness. My BAT preamp certainly contributes to the dark sound and my Luxman DAC leans to a slight warmth.
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Thanks for the review Larry. Sounds like something to consider down the road, maybe trade in my old FetValve Ultra550, or the Insight 250+. Appreciate you taking the time to share, as I'm sure Frank does. 8)
JD
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I've never owned any AVA gear but I'm now wondering how much the 120 gets from the very nice 400????
Gene
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Thanks for the review Larry. Sounds like something to consider down the road, maybe trade in my old FetValve Ultra550, or the Insight 250+. Appreciate you taking the time to share, as I'm sure Frank does. 8)
JD
JD, I know the older Ultra 550 well. The SET 400 and the R series amps are a huge improvements. Both compete with amps costing twice as much.
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Larry, thanks much for the kind comments. If you try the amp with our new Fet Valve CFR vacuum tube preamp (loaner available) I bet the slight darkness will go away.
The Vision SET 120 has identical circuits and and sonic performance, just lower power and much lower price ($899). I have a loaner of this amp too.
Thanks again.
Frank
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Larry, thanks much for the kind comments. If you try the amp with our new Fet Valve CFR vacuum tube preamp (loaner available) I bet the slight darkness will go away.
The Vision SET 120 has identical circuits and and sonic performance, just lower power and much lower price ($899). I have a loaner of this amp too.
Thanks again.
Frank
Frank, that darkness is due in part to my preamp but the settings in my music player contributed to the majority of that. And it really was just a hint of darkness which I tend to prefer.
Last night I did some more listening and I changed the settings and was able to get rid of almost all of the darkness.
By the way, I am going to addend the review a little bit for the better after doing some more listening.
Larry
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Just wish more of Frank's products were balanced as I have my rack to the side as we all should. I am using 25' xlr's now, seems a long way for single ended runs.
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I can build you a mono pair of Vision SET 400 amps, each with a single XLR input. The amps will then be true balanced designs with about 300 watts each output.
Now what is your excuse? 🤨
Frank
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aaaaaand Frank goes for the mic drop :lol: :thumb:
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So are the Vision SET amps output stage single-ended as well, or is it still push-pull? If push-pull, is it running on a bipolar power supply or single-ended supply and capacitive coupled to the output like the FetValve R amps? Just curious.
-Ron
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The high current output section is very similar to the Fet Valve power amps which as given us very reliable and musical audio performance.
Frank
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Frank I've been throwing around some thoughts between the new SET 400 and the FET Valve 400r Hybrid. Can you explain and noticeable differences in the two, regarding the low's, mids, hi's soundstage etc.. I would be using a AR LS27 pre and KEf 201/2 speakers, room size 21x19x12
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Frank I've been throwing around some thoughts between the new SET 400 and the FET Valve 400r Hybrid. Can you explain and noticeable differences in the two, regarding the low's, mids, hi's soundstage etc.. I would be using a AR LS27 pre and KEf 201/2 speakers, room size 21x19x12
PM sent
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A lot will depend upon the basic sonic quality and balance of your speakers.
If they tend to be on the bright side, then the 400R will be a better match.
The SET 400 is a very "high energy" amplifier preserving and playing back every nuance of the micro dynamics of the music. If your speakers are voiced toward the "hot" side, the SET 400 might overwhelm them. With a well balanced and very transparent set of speakers, the SET 400 will simply amaze you as Larry has reported in his review above.
I know that Mike Levy loves the amp with his huge and very expensive Alta Titanium Hestia speakers. :)
http://alta-audio.com/collection/titanium-hestia/
Frank
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Larry, not sure why you replied to marv52 with a PM? Others may be interested in your comparison as well, particularly after you tempted us with, "Tonally, the SET 400 sounds completely different from the R series amps."
The 400R has been identified as a great match for Janszen speakers. But now Frank followed up, "With a well balanced and very transparent set of speakers, the SET 400 will simply amaze you". I consider the Janszens to be well balanced and very transparent, so all this is confusing, if the amps do sound completely different. :scratch:
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Larry, not sure why you replied to marv52 with a PM? Others may be interested in your comparison as well, particularly after you tempted us with, "Tonally, the SET 400 sounds completely different from the R series amps."
The 400R has been identified as a great match for Janszen speakers. But now Frank followed up, "With a well balanced and very transparent set of speakers, the SET 400 will simply amaze you". I consider the Janszens to be well balanced and very transparent, so all this is confusing, if the amps do sound completely different. :scratch:
I sent a personal PM because it is easier to talk about systems and have follow up questions. Bottom line, in my system the R and SET amps sound completely different. R series in my system had my Pass beat in air and transparency but it was not organic sounding like the Pass or SET. Treble was forward and had more air but it was not warm enough for me. I prefer a slightly colored sound with a hint of warmth, darkness and bloom. The R series amps have good detail and good texture, probably a bit more than the SET from what I remember of the R amps. The SET amp does not have the air and transparency of the R series in my system. The SET has beautiful tone and mid range, different than the R series. It is smoother and more rounded but still has crsip attack on leading edges of guitar and strings. Sound stage is not as deep or wide in my system. I found the R series to also be a bit more dynamic. Keep in mind that I am not saying that the SET does not have a wide sound stage as it does but just not to the extent of the R series or my Pass.
The SET amp sounds just beautiful for lack of a better term. It does not sound SS except for the tight, fast bass. And at $2199, I can find no faults. And believe me, my BAT preamp and Magnepans will let you know when an amp or dac is not up to snuff.
Both the R series and SET amps are excellent just different flavors. Bear in mind that I have not had an R series amp to review for at least 1.5 years or so. And system matching is important so as usual, YMMV.
Larry
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I have ordered a Vision SET 400. I'm an older hifi guy and I really like Frank's philosophy and way of doing business. I know the amp will do well with my Salk Song3 speakers, providing a good level of driver control. I'll post results as soon as appropriate. Thank you friends of Frank and Frank.
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I would be interested in having this amplifier listened to by someone who has a 400-600R (single ended) system. The comparison would be very interesting. Who is next to hear the review amp?
Best
AL Nozak
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Frank,
Can the SET amps be built into any Dyna or Hafler chassis?
Thanks,
Ron
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Larry - thanks for the review and comparison. I should probably schedule a trip to RMAF to hear the SET amp if Frank is going to be there, maybe he will bring his ABX Switch Comparator. I have heard the 600R in my system with the Salk HT2-TL speakers, the 600R was perhaps a little more detailed, a smidge less warm than the Synergy 450 but that was about it. I kept the Synergy 450.
Wayne
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Hi Ron,
No the SET 400 or 120 circuits won’t fit in a Dyna or Hafler chassis.
Frank
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Is it possible to describe the amount of heat :oops: the Vision SET 400 radiates vs. the Fet Valve 400R? How about compared with another, average solid state power amp (if there is such a thing)? I would think the heat output will vary with how hard the amps are working, but what I am asking about is a relative comparison given similar operating conditions.
Thank you.
Peter
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Frank,
Have you done an A/B comparison between the SET 400 and the DVA 4/2? I’d like to know the differences.
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Is it possible to describe the amount of heat :oops: the Vision SET 400 radiates vs. the Fet Valve 400R? How about compared with another, average solid state power amp (if there is such a thing)? I would think the heat output will vary with how hard the amps are working, but what I am asking about is a relative comparison given similar operating conditions.
Thank you.
Peter
Hi Peter and Nightfall- the SET just got slightly warm playing moderately loud for 1 hour in my system driving my Magnepan 1.6's.
NF- I had the DVA 700 and reviewed it.. The SET has a better mid range and is more organic and natural sounding. The DVA has more air and transparency with a wider sound stage. The DVA 700 is a great amp as is the SET 400. Vocals with the SET are pushed slightly back in the sound stage (not in a bad way, just a different flavor) and cymbals are more forward just the opposite of my Pass amp. I don't believe that vocals were pushed back with the DVA. Of course a lot will depend upon your preamp and music source.
Not sure if this helps,
Larry
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Thanks. Wondering if the Fet Valve 400R gets as warm as the SET 400? More? Less?
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Thanks. Wondering if the Fet Valve 400R gets as warm as the SET 400? More? Less?
I believe it gets warmer due to the tubes. The SET is SS. I had a 600R for review and it got warm but I would not call it hot and certainly not like my Pass that gets up to 120F or my BAT preamp with 8 tubes that is a space heater. The SET got luke warm.
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Thanks Larry!
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I just received my Vision SET 400. I know it is really brand new but my impressions are all super positive. I listened to a recording that I’ve known since I was in high school, Brubeck’s Take Five. Simply terrific. Very good synergy with my Salk Song 3s. Plus the thing looks great.
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Hey folks. Let me add a little something to my previous post on the SET 400. My younger son is a very good acoustic guitar player. When he was playing at school I was naturally in his corner. When the judges talked about his playing they would say his musicality set him apart. It seems to me that this is a chief characteristic of this amplifier. It draws the listener into what’s going on on the record. It’s a beaut!
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Hey folks. Let me add a little something to my previous post on the SET 400. My younger son is a very good acoustic guitar player. When he was playing at school I was naturally in his corner. When the judges talked about his playing they would say his musicality set him apart. It seems to me that this is a chief characteristic of this amplifier. It draws the listener into what’s going on on the record. It’s a beaut!
I am glad to see that your experience mirrors my review :)
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Frank loaned me this amp so I could write a review and compare it to my Pass Labs X250 amp. I have had it hooked up for 2 days now and I am very impressed.
cant tell you how many times in the past that i thought the sound of an amp after 2 or 3 or 4 days sounded incredible - only to be disappointed after a month - please dont call this a review - its very deceiving
not saying this amp isnt incredible - i love franks products in general
be a little bit more responsible - before posting so called reviews
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cant tell you how many times in the past that i thought the sound of an amp after 2 or 3 or 4 days sounded incredible - only to be disappointed after a month - please dont call this a review - its very deceiving
not saying this amp isnt incredible - i love franks products in general
be a little bit more responsible - before posting so called reviews
This definitely was a review. I don't need to have a piece of gear in my system for weeks to decide if I like it or not or to be sure of what I am hearing unless the gear is not broken in or I am unfamiliar with a piece of music. The amp was fully broken in and I used music that I was very familiar with and like. I can usually tell in the first few minutes of a song as to whether or not I like a piece of gear. In addition, I have my reference system as a point of reference. And if you have read all my reviews of Frank's gear, I am always comparing it to my gear which costs thousands more. It is not hard for me to tell whether the amp has the same musicality, detail, resolution, sound stage, separation between instruments, tone, bloom, bass, treble, brightness, warmth, PRAT as my reference gear.
I loved the sound of the SET 400. It's mid range was much better than my Pass. However, I felt the amount of separation between instruments was better with the Pass. The sound stage was also wider and deeper. I could tell this after just a few songs.
People can take my reviews with a grain of salt as every review should be, especially from the Pro reviewers that rely of income from the ads that the audio companies take out in their magazines. In addition, you never know how a piece of gear will sound in your own home with its own acoustics and how it will match up with your own gear.
I think that most people that have read my reviews and bought that piece have agreed with my reviews from the private emails that I have received.
I can certainly see your point about having a piece of gear in your system for a month or two and you find out that you may not like it as much. I have only had that problem with my Parasound A21 amp which I found fatiguing with some types of music. But that is why I don't like bright sounding gear. I reviewed the 600R amp and it has many attributes that I like but it was a little bright sounding in my system and I posted it. I have 2 friends that have that amp and it certainly is not bright in theirs. I knew right away that that amp was not for me and keeping it in my system for a month would not have changed my opinion. Same goes for the Spatial Audio speakers that I had on loan. My Maggies were better plain and simple from the first song.
You don't have to read my reviews and you are not giving the people that read them enough credit to see the review for what it is.
People on this forum are very knowledgeable.
One other thing to note with my reviews, I usually try and have a few audiophile friends over to listen to the gear and get their opinion. For the SET review my 27 year old budding audiophile son reviewed it with me and agreed with every thing I heard.
There's my 2 cents and I won't respond any further.
Best Regards,
Larry
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There can be a caution with long term reviews. I've been in this hobby for decades and while generalized, this has been a pretty consistent observation for me.
When I insert component B into my system in place of component A I can immediately notice many of the sonic changes. Then as I progress through a few more of my standard evaluation recordings I can pick out more differences. Sometimes these changes are for the better, sometimes worse. This process can continue for a couple of days.
However if I leave component B in my system for several days my brain seems to acclimate to this new "normal" sonic experience. If I think back on the sonic differences from A I certainly remember the major ones, but my system no longer sounds so different as it did initially. The ear/brain has substituted and I accept this new sound.
Perhaps this is just a longer-winded version of what Larry said. :wink:
Note this assumes component B is broken in when initially installed. I do believe in burn in for speakers, capacitors, cartridges, etc. and changes can continue beyond just a few days.
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Stay tuned for a review on the SET 120 amp that I had for about 2 weeks.
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Stay tuned for a review on the SET 120 amp that I had for about 2 weeks.
Now we're talking!!! :thumb:
Gene
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Stay tuned for a review on the SET 120 amp that I had for about 2 weeks.
Looking forward to this, I'm really interested in the SET 120. Keep those reviews coming.
Cornelis
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There's my 2 cents and I won't respond any further.
Best Regards,
Larry
What you wrote is misleading and irresponsible - reviews after 3 days are not based in reality - you giving yourself 2 cents is aiming too high
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What you wrote is misleading and irresponsible - reviews after 3 days are not based in reality - you giving yourself 2 cents is aiming too high
Seriously, leave it alone. He clearly said he listened to it for 2 days. Nothing misleading about that. Plus, you're insulting.
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There can be a caution with long term reviews. I've been in this hobby for decades and while generalized, this has been a pretty consistent observation for me.
When I insert component B into my system in place of component A I can immediately notice many of the sonic changes. Then as I progress through a few more of my standard evaluation recordings I can pick out more differences. Sometimes these changes are for the better, sometimes worse. This process can continue for a couple of days.
However if I leave component B in my system for several days my brain seems to acclimate to this new "normal" sonic experience. If I think back on the sonic differences from A I certainly remember the major ones, but my system no longer sounds so different as it did initially. The ear/brain has substituted and I accept this new sound.
Perhaps this is just a longer-winded version of what Larry said. :wink:
Note this assumes component B is broken in when initially installed. I do believe in burn in for speakers, capacitors, cartridges, etc. and changes can continue beyond just a few days.
Thanks, I have had the same observations when evaluating a new piece of gear. You can clearly tell the differences in the short term but audio memory can be short and it can get a little muddled after time trying to remember the attributes of your reference system or gear.
I am always upfront about how long I have listened to a piece of gear. In relation to the SET 400, I listened to it for roughly 7-8 hours and my son listened for at least 5 hours and had the same thoughts about the SET. But as ususal YMMV.
I said that I would not respond to Smargo but some one who recently bought the amp emailed me and said my review was spot on.
Nuff said on that!
I will post the review on the SET 120 sometime within the next 5 days when I have time to further discuss the amp with my son who used the amp for 2 weeks comparing it to his Parasound A21 amp.
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IMO, I.Greyhound Fan explains his methodology satisfactorily. Anyone is then free to interpret accordingly. IMO, lively debate is desirable but hopefully in a civil manner.
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Thanks for these reviews, I enjoy them and don't need to read them for a month to know that either! :icon_twisted:
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@I.Greyhound Fan - any thoughts on the SET 120?
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@I.Greyhound Fan - any thoughts on the SET 120?
See he & his son's review here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159180.0
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See he & his son's review here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159180.0
Thanks!
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Frank, I just bought a new pair of PSB T3 speakers, $7700pr. If you want me to do another review in a month when they are broken in, let me know. These speakers are compared to speakers in the $15K-20K range.
Larry
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Frank, I just bought a new pair of PSB T3 speakers, $7700pr. …
Pics or it didn't happen. :wink:
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Pics or it didn't happen. :wink:
They ship out on Tuesday and I should have them in about 6-10 days :D I would love to hear the new amp with them.
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They ship out on Tuesday and I should have them in about 6-10 days :D I would love to hear the new amp with them.
Yes, that would be quite awesome. Congrats on the new speakers! :thumb:
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Larry, by the time you have your new speakers broken in, I should have a pair of new DVA SET 600 monoblocks available for you to play with.
They are really something else!
Frank
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Larry, by the time you have your new speakers broken in, I should have a pair of new DVA SET 600 monoblocks available for you to play with.
They are really something else!
Frank
Sweet. :drool:
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Larry, by the time you have your new speakers broken in, I should have a pair of new DVA SET 600 monoblocks available for you to play with.
They are really something else!
Frank
I am looking forward to reviewing them with the new speakers. Let me know when they are ready.
Larry
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Frank, I received my new PSB T3 speakers and have almost 20 hours on them in 2 days. I should have them broken in the last week of September. Let me know when the Mono blocks are ready.
Larry
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We will need to build a new set of DVA SET 600s. The set we built has been shipped out.
We won't have time to build them until we are more caught up with pending orders.
In the meantime your are welcome to use my demo SET 400 to run with your new speakers for a while.
Frank
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Smargo, the reviewer for Audiophila who wrote the following review:
http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2018/9/13/the-van-alstine-vision-set-400-stereo-amplifier
Actually purchased the SET 400 amplifier and kept it for himself. He got a 15% discount, that is all.
Was that "misleading and irresponsible"?
Note that we have never advertised in Audiophilia.
Frank
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Larry, the reviewer for Audiophilia is keeping and purchased the pair of SET 600 monoblocks.
http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2018/10/13/audio-by-van-alstine-dva-set-600-mono-block-amplifier
Mike Levy of Alta Audio also wants the next pair we build.
So it will be a while before I have a pair of them for you to take home.
Sorry about that, well kinda, but the line for them is not all that long right now. Better than for a Tesla 3 now anyway. :)
Frank
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Frank, with easy to drive speakers - is there much difference in sound between the 400 and 600 monos?
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With easy to drive speakers all you really need is the Vision SET 400 power amplifier ($1999).
This is the amp we normally use here testing other equipment with our ABX Comparator. The comparator is available again at $1099.
Right now we have a lovely set of Alta Rhea speakers to evaluate here.
http://alta-audio.com/collection/rhea/
If you have system electronics that trends toward the hot side, these are the rationally priced speakers to own.
Frank
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Hi Frank. Following the logic above, would the SET 120 deliver the same quality to a pair of very easy to drive speakers?
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Hi Frank. Following the logic above, would the SET 120 deliver the same quality to a pair of very easy to drive speakers?
Yes, I reviewed them both. Both are excellent amps and are heavy hitters, way above their price points.
Larry
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Hi Frank. Following the logic above, would the SET 120 deliver the same quality to a pair of very easy to drive speakers?
Yes. I would LOVE to know the answer to this. Is the SET 120 the SET 400 minus the watts?
I have 97db very easy to Drive ZU Audio Omen speakers and am VERY close to pulling the trigger on a new amp under the $1000 price tag. This SET 120 looks to be VERY special.
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Yes, the SET 120 has identical audio circuits as the SET 400.
It just has lower power supply voltage and lower power to fit in the smaller chassis and require lower voltage part ratings.
The sound is identical. You would hear no difference at all with efficent speakers.
Frank
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Yes, the SET 120 has identical audio circuits as the SET 400.
It just has lower power supply voltage and lower power to fit in the smaller chassis and require lower voltage part ratings.
The sound is identical. You would hear no difference at all with efficent speakers.
Frank
Well you sold me then!!!!!
I am in. Finally a member of the AVA family! :D
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And by the way, thanks for the prompt response Frank.
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You can order directly from our web site. Build time for you is 2 - 3 weeks with Thanksgiving taking a long weekend from our schedule and many other orders ahead of you.
It won’t be like waiting for a Tesla though.
Frank
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Love my SET 120. Thanks Frank!
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Well my situation has changed since the last time I posted here. I still have the ZU's so the SET 120 would be an excellent match for them but I now have a pair of Magnepan LRS's which I am told love power and current. So I might be saving some more pennies for the 400.
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Well my situation has changed since the last time I posted here. I still have the ZU's so the SET 120 would be an excellent match for them but I now have a pair of Magnepan LRS's which I am told love power and current. So I might be saving some more pennies for the 400.
Yes, I think the 400 is the clear choice between the two now that the LRS has entered the picture.
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Yes, I think the 400 is the clear choice between the two now that the LRS has entered the picture.
YEP! It's at the top of my list for end game amplifiers.
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Yes, I think the 400 is the clear choice between the two now that the LRS has entered the picture.
Hey Mick, I have one of those on order and yea, I can bring it over in about 8 weeks. Frank is busy.
Another local amp tour, what else are retired guys gonna do when it's 110 degrees outside?
Wayne
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Hey Mick, I have one of those on order and yea, I can bring it over in about 8 weeks. Frank is busy.
Another local amp tour, what else are retired guys gonna do when it's 110 degrees outside?
Wayne
Love to hear it. Timing is good as well. Bring it on over. :)
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Yes, I think the 400 is the clear choice between the two now that the LRS has entered the picture.
So I am trying to get a higher quality amp into my system for my LRS's sooner than later and was wondering how the SET 120 would do, "for now?"
Once I do get the SET 400, I plan on moving the SET 120 to the home theater room for a pair of VERY efficient ZU Audio Omens.
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So I am trying to get a higher quality amp into my system for my LRS's sooner than later and was wondering how the SET 120 would do, "for now?"
Once I do get the SET 400, I plan on moving the SET 120 to the home theater room for a pair of VERY efficient ZU Audio Omens.
I just received my LRS's a week ago and have been using a Belles Model 1 (100 wpc at 8 ohms, no idea about 4!) and a Sansui AU-5900 (45 at 4 and 8 ohms) and both of them have no problem at all at moderate (concrete apartment cave levels).
If you get the 120, please post! I'm looking at it as well.
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After having the SET 400 and Alta Audio Titanium Hestia's for a few weeks I can truly say they are a synergistic match. The sound fills a large living area with ease and authority. The imaging is uncanny and bass is full with out ever getting in the way. I have tried the 400R with the Alta's and there are more things that are similar than different. The 400R has a little deeper soundstage with a slightly liquid sound compared to the SET 400. The Set 400 is more forward with the air of the recording well into the room with you. I could live with either and be happy for a long time. For speakers that need some balancing in frequency response, either because they are built like that or room interactions, I would go with the 400R as tube rolling allows you to dial in your sound. However, the Hestia's are so well balanced that the SET 400 is perfect for them. The SET amp definitely has a unique sound that should be heard by any of you that think a fully transistor amp can't convey the emotion of the music. A $2000 amp running $32000 speakers, blasphemy, I know, but I don't think I could do much better for 5 times the price. The guy I bought the Hestia's from ran them on the SET 600 monoblocs and said they sounded better than the SET 400. I might consider trading up one day but I have plenty of power now and am enjoying the combination
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I can build you a mono pair of Vision SET 400 amps, each with a single XLR input. The amps will then be true balanced designs with about 300 watts each output.
Now what is your excuse? 🤨
Frank
Is the same doable for the Vision SET 120?
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I just received my LRS's a week ago and have been using a Belles Model 1 (100 wpc at 8 ohms, no idea about 4!) and a Sansui AU-5900 (45 at 4 and 8 ohms) and both of them have no problem at all at moderate (concrete apartment cave levels).
If you get the 120, please post! I'm looking at it as well.
The amp I am using right now is putting out about 125 watts per channel into 4ohms. And like you, at moderate volumes, it has no problems powering the Maggie's but when I want to really get dynamic, 125 watts is not close to enough. More headroom with theses Maggie's is MUCH needed!
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The amp I am using right now is putting out about 125 watts per channel into 4ohms. And like you, at moderate volumes, it has no problems powering the Maggie's but when I want to really get dynamic, 125 watts is not close to enough. More headroom with theses Maggie's is MUCH needed!
I think my definition of "moderate" is different than everyone else's!
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I think you need a SET 400 to get the best out of your speakers.
Frank
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Matthew, as I am a long time Maggie owner, I can tell you that your LRS's will sound better with more power. The music becomes more dynamic and fuller. Bass will also hit harder. I run 500 wpc with my 1.6's and 250 wpc with my original MMG's.
The SET 400 would make your Maggies sing beautiful music.
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I can build you a mono pair of Vision SET 400 amps, each with a single XLR input. The amps will then be true balanced designs with about 300 watts each output.
Now what is your excuse? 🤨
Frank
Frank, can you do this with the SET 120 as well?
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Mono versions of SET 120 amps?
Can't be done with the current generation of small chassis. There just is not enough internal heat sink to support bridged mono very high power into 4 ohm or 2 ohm loads.
The Set 120 is great in stereo mode into normal 8 ohm or 4 ohm loads, but bridge mode triples the power and cuts the speaker load in half and very high power into 2 ohms is a bit much for the heat sinks.
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Mono versions of SET 120 amps?
Can't be done with the current generation of small chassis. There just is not enough internal heat sink to support bridged mono very high power into 4 ohm or 2 ohm loads.
The Set 120 is great in stereo mode into normal 8 ohm or 4 ohm loads, but bridge mode triples the power and cuts the speaker load in half and very high power into 2 ohms is a bit much for the heat sinks.
Thanks for that quick answer.
I need xlr inputs as my amp is 30 feet from source and I use balanced cables. Would it be possible to build the SET 120 with xlr inputs? If so, I can contact you via email for details.
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The SET 120 chassis is not tooled for XLR jacks and with room for the necessary XLR to single ended circuits to convert balanced inputs to in-phase operation in the stereo mode.
If you need XLR Inputs, choose the SET 400 with this option.
Frank
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Thanks.
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As an apartment dweller, I'll never see the full potential of the LRS's, with 45, 100 or 200 wpc.
In his review of the LRS, Herb Reichert used a number of low-power amps and had no complaints. Again, I understand wpc and current capability are totally different.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0 (https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0)
My interest in the AVA SET 120 (and 400) is the SET and Class A part, something nobody else seems interested in, and is what immediately caught my eye.
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I think a few years back Parasound was promoting using just one channel of a 60-80 watt stereo amp as a mono-block pair. The advantage touted as separate amps for better separation and 2 channels of power supply for one channel. Not higher continuous output but maybe a little more headroom. Given the "value" price of the SET 120, is there any value to setting them up like this? A pair, each one only driving one channel.
BTW, does the bridging box for the U70 work with the SET 120?
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As an apartment dweller, I'll never see the full potential of the LRS's, with 45, 100 or 200 wpc.
In his review of the LRS, Herb Reichert used a number of low-power amps and had no complaints. Again, I understand wpc and current capability are totally different.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0 (https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0)
My interest in the AVA SET 120 (and 400) is the SET and Class A part, something nobody else seems interested in, and is what immediately caught my eye.
I am VERY interested in the amps running in Class A mode at normal listening levels. I do a lot of low level listening when the family is sleeping in on the weekends. So Class A mode will be a nice bonus. I've even been looking at the Schiit Audio Aegir's for that reason. Heard them at RMAF in the Salk room and was VERY impressed. However I am still sold on the SET 400 due to I want my Maggie's to really sing and open up. I want high power and high current. And I have noticed this too, with high powered amps, even at low level listening, they sound great. I don't know if it's because they are barely breaking a sweat or what, but the power I am putting to my ZU's is the most they have ever seen and the low level listening details are the best I have ever heard on them. You could always get a SET 400 and let it coast in Class A mode all day long.
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You would be very surprised at how little wattage you use with Maggies. My Pass amp plays in Class A up to about 20-25 wpc. The meter on the front of the amp tells you when you leave Class A. If it crosses over to the right side then it is leaving Class A. It is a rare occurrence that it leaves Class A, even at loud volumes. With dynamic passages you will see the needle move to the right of 12:00 position.
With that being said, they still sound better with high watts and high current. The depth of the music and dynamics greatly improve.
I believe that the SET 400 plays in Class A the first 10 or 15 watts or so. Correct me if I am wrong Frank.
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You would be very surprised at how little wattage you use with Maggies. My Pass amp plays in Class A up to about 20-25 wpc. The meter on the front of the amp tells you when you leave Class A. If it crosses over to the right side then it is leaving Class A. It is a rare occurrence that it leaves Class A, even at loud volumes. With dynamic passages you will see the needle move to the right of 12:00 position.
With that being said, they still sound better with high watts and high current. The depth of the music and dynamics greatly improve.
I believe that the SET 400 plays in Class A the first 10 or 15 watts or so. Correct me if I am wrong Frank.
Yes, if Frank can chime in and let us know how many watts it goes up to until leaving Class A mode.
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The SET 400 runs Class A for about 10 - 20 watts depending upon the speaker load. The complete single ended voltage amplifier section is always operating Class A, the full complimantry current amplifier output section runs Class AB at high power. You will never hear any difference.
Frank
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The SET 400 runs Class A for about 10 - 20 watts depending upon the speaker load. The complete single ended voltage amplifier section is always operating Class A, the full complimantry current amplifier output section runs Class AB at high power. You will never hear any difference.
Frank
Can you please post the same info for the 120? Thanks!
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Can any Vision Set 400 Owners confirm that there is a break in period with this amp and if so at how many hours?
Thanks
AJ
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The Vision Set 400 sounded excellent from the beginning, I did not not notice any break in phenomenon. In fact all AVA electronics can be enjoyed from the from the first moment they are turned on, even the tubed stuff. Both my AVA preamp and DAC are tubed, do they sound different after 5 minutes or 30 minutes? I don't think so.
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Jeff
I don't know how many hours the one I got from you had but haven't noticed any real difference since. I have changed preamps, speakers and DAC combos several times so there is change obviously then but the amps character is always consistent.
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How does the SET 400 do with 16ohm speakers? 101db efficient.
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The SET 400 runs Class A for about 10 - 20 watts depending upon the speaker load. The complete single ended voltage amplifier section is always operating Class A, the full complimantry current amplifier output section runs Class AB at high power. You will never hear any difference.
Frank
So with 16ohm speakers and a 101db efficiency, what are we looking at?
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Over 100W/Ch running almost always Class A into a 101 dB efficient speaker.
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Over 100W/Ch running almost always Class A into a 101 dB efficient speaker.
I bet that would sound phenomenal!
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Can a SET 400 be ordered with balanced inputs ?
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Can a SET 400 be ordered with balanced inputs ?
That’s a great question. I’ve wondered why it’s not an option. My main system is balanced from end to end.
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Yes, you can order the SET 400 with balanced inputs.
Switchable XLR/RCA inputs option is $200.
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Yes, you can order the SET 400 with balanced inputs.
Switchable XLR/RCA inputs option is $200.
Awesome, thank you for the response
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anyway to see the owner's manual?
I have one on order and always like to read up before anything arrives.
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anyway to see the owner's manual?
I have one on order and always like to read up before anything arrives.
E-mail Frank, maybe he can help.
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Email me at: frank@avahifi.com and I will send you a .pdf file of any of our current user manuals.
Note that we have discontinued the XLR option with our two channel stereo amplifiers. Since the amplifiers can't run balanced (that requires four active channels) this option provides no useful sonic improvement.
Our mono amps are full differential amplifiers and XLR inputs with these is standard.
Note that we will have final production prototypes of a fully balanced digital preamp available within a couple of weeks. This has both balanced XLR outputs and RCA outputs and five digital inputs.
Frank
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thanks Frank..sent you an e-mail.
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Frank....does this mean that the digital preamp will have its own built in DAC? Also, will it have any analog inputs?
Thanks.
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Yes, built in DAC.
If you need to use 2 channel analog sources, we will offer a low cost A to D external adaptor with two sets of analog inputs. It sounds great with our Vision Q phono preamp as an input.
Frank
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Looking forward to reviews of your digital preamp! What is the status of a new stand alone DAC?
Email me at: frank@avahifi.com and I will send you a .pdf file of any of our current user manuals.
Note that we have discontinued the XLR option with our two channel stereo amplifiers. Since the amplifiers can't run balanced (that requires four active channels) this option provides no useful sonic improvement.
Our mono amps are full differential amplifiers and XLR inputs with these is standard.
Note that we will have final production prototypes of a fully balanced digital preamp available within a couple of weeks. This has both balanced XLR outputs and RCA outputs and five digital inputs.
Frank
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amp shipped yesterday will be arriving Tuesday... :D
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EZ PZ set up and very back friendly..lol. What would you say is the break in time period?
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Frank has said elsewhere that his solid-state equipment needs little to no break-in, and his tube equipment needs a few minutes, just to bring the tubes up to temperature. As an owner of his solid-state stuff for ten years or so, I agree.
Cornelis
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thank you....excuse the disarray until I complete my Spring madness
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223945)
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I look forward to reading your impressions of the amp.
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after a week of listening and comparing I have decide to send the amp back. It is quite good, beautifully built, easy on the back weight, and impressive sound to boot. However I am going to stick with the A21 with the balanced inputs, gain controls, and 12v trigger that fit my needs/wants. Sound wise both are top notch , I just feel the A21 works better with the Mac 2300 in my set up. Others might find it the other way around they are both that good. if anyone wants me to ship the amp to them instead of back to AVA let me know ASAP.
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Hi Gene,
I know you have been a user of AVA products for many years now so we regret the SET 400 did not have the features you wanted.
I might suggest our brand new M225 mono amps we are finally able to ship right now after a long development period.
These are fully differential balanced designs with XLR inputs only. They are very small for their power and authority, just 9” wide, 10” deep, 4” high and 16 pounds.
They are Class A-B designs running Class A up to about 20W. The M225 is rated at 225W/Ch into 8 ohms, near double that into 4 ohms and safe operation into 2 ohms.
Sonically, they are probably the best we have ever done. We have review samples out to Parttimeaudiophile and Audiophila right now. The Audiophile reviewer called and purchased the review samples. Expect two over the top reviews soon. Huge stable image, amazingly natural, transparent, dynamic, and resolving.
Price $1699 each and worth a hell of a lot more.
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oh boy....I will look into those..I just shipped back the 400 today...it's never easy sending back a quality product. Thanks...
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:D can you get the 225's single end ? :D
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:D can you get the 225's single end ? :D
You can use XLR to RCA converter that Frank built and see if it is available for sale now. I reviewed the amps and they sound great.
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Stereo RCA to XLR unit is in final testing here right now.
Will be about 30 days to have chassis designed and produced.
It will take about the same time to have final PC card produced and populated.
We are putting a lot into this to make sure it is really transparent.
Frank
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:D one box unit with rca inputs will fit the bill. I need an amp in the worse way. Canada is like a wasteland with no shops here. But i need an amp NOW !!!! I HAVE NO MUSIC !!!! :D
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I have a demo SET 400 power amp with the black faceplate available at 10% off ($1799).
RCA stereo inputs and ready to go with full new warranty.
Frank
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I just shipped back a pristine 2 week old silver face plate that will be back in Frank's hands 5/7.. I never used the power chord or anything else in the box but the amp and it was used with very high end gear, Furman protection and battery backup.
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after a week of listening and comparing I have decide to send the amp back. It is quite good, beautifully built, easy on the back weight, and impressive sound to boot. However I am going to stick with the A21 with the balanced inputs, gain controls, and 12v trigger that fit my needs/wants. Sound wise both are top notch , I just feel the A21 works better with the Mac 2300 in my set up. Others might find it the other way around they are both that good. if anyone wants me to ship the amp to them instead of back to AVA let me know ASAP.
I just shipped back a pristine 2 week old silver face plate that will be back in Frank's hands 5/7.. I never used the power chord or anything else in the box but the amp and it was used with very high end gear, Furman protection and battery backup.
Hi gene9p,
Saw your note on needing those other features which I don't care about or need, but wondering why you felt the A21 was worth sticking with sonically? I tried the new "+" addition A23+ reportedly designed by John Curl and was surprisingly undwhelmed, even with a really good 6SN7 tube preamp in front of it. Sold it a month after giving it a shot as a backup amp to my tube mono amps. Fwiw, I've owned many other Class A/AB SS amps to compare to in the past. Yes, we realize function and synergy is important and likely why you kept the Mac 2300 / A21 amp setup. Hope you can answer another question and no offense meant.. i would figure the SET 400 would sound better than your A21 and wondering if you felt your current Mac 2300 preamplifier was a limiting factor in not achieving the best results with the SET400. And wondering if you focused on one aspect of the sound like bass vs the entire soundstage, midrange, imaging...
Did you try any other preamps with the SET 400 amp before sending it back, anything more you care to share with us, please?
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I had the A23+ as well with my Vinnie Rossi LIO and had Amperex 7308 white labels as well as green labels and thought it was quite good. I never felt the A23+ was underwhelming at all. As far as the A21 , it just sounds better with my "new"setup using the Mac 2300. It was a tough call but it did sound more to my liking, a bit smoother than the 400 but that's not a knock, just the way I listen to my music these days. I did not try the 400 nor the A21 with the LIO. Perhaps down the road but right now I am committed..lol..to the Mac. The Mac with the new Tung Sol 12x7 gold pins is quite beautiful sounding, much better than the original 12x7 's. I sold my Genalex 12x7 Gold Lions a while ago when I sold my Mac C220. The only limitations with the Mac 2300 is it is hard to swap tubes compared to the C220 and the ease of the VR LIO. In your set up you might hear things differently and the 400 is the better fit. Cables as well as speakers make a difference as well. ..not to mention I will be 70 at the end of the year and I KNOW my hearing has changed and not for the better. As far as comparison between the A21 and the A23+...build quality is outstanding now on the 23+, much better than the older one and better in some ways than the original A21. The new 21+ has taken the build quality to a higher level as well along the lines of the JC5. Sound wise the original 21 I have is better overall... sound stage, bass, everything over the 23+, it's just that good. Not so when comparing the 21 to the 400..both are excellent and give so much great sound and detail. Both are quality built . So it comes down to a gut decision. If I could keep both..I would...this was a tough tough decision.
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Gene, I owned an A21 that I gave to my son. We recently sold it. We compared the A21 to the SET 400 that I reviewed and the 400 was smoother, more musical and it was not even close.
It could be system matching with preamps and DAC's or we just hear things different.
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exactly.....
same with the Pass Labs XP 10..so loved but didn't work for me....better adjust my meds..lol
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exactly.....
same with the Pass Labs XP 10..so loved but didn't work for me....better adjust my meds..lol
Sounds like you are trying different things to find the best fit for your system and that's what it's all about.
That whole saga about the XP10 vs the later version 12, 22, 30 seemed to be an expensive trial & error venture and many went through that, and still are. Others trying vendor preamps including various tube preamps to find the synergy with their Pass amps. For a while there, NP was actually recommending people try really good tube preamps with his amps. Some have with great reward. Then out came the NuTube Korg, some tried that too. Finding a good match can be super rewarding when it happens, particularly when it raises the result for all components within the system to sound their best. For those who can swing it, sure seems like it would be worthwhile to pair up one of the AVA preamps with the AVA amps to give it a fair review if the current preamp one has might be in question. Best of luck to all on these units, good fun.
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duplicate, deleted.
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Agree, I had an X1 preamp with my X250 amp and sold it for a BAT VK51se tube preamp and have never looked back.
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We now have a perfect like new demo Vision SET 400 power amp with the premium silver faceplate available for 10% off.
Frank
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I stopped by AVA this spring and picked up a SET 400. It has been everything I hoped. Plenty of power. It runs cool. Ten hour sessions are handled with aplomb. Sound is dynamic and clear. Music has details I haven't heard before. I'm definitely a fan! But I'm afraid I may have contracted g.a.s. Anyone have recommendations on a pre to go with the SET 400? I am eagerly awaiting your updated lineup Frank!
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I stopped by AVA this spring and picked up a SET 400. It has been everything I hoped. Plenty of power. It runs cool. Ten hour sessions are handled with aplomb. Sound is dynamic and clear. Music has details I haven't heard before. I'm definitely a fan! But I'm afraid I may have contracted g.a.s. Anyone have recommendations on a pre to go with the SET 400? I am eagerly awaiting your updated lineup Frank!
My Yamaha C4 pre is getting long in tooth.
I am also starting to consider a new pre-amp to pair with my SET 400.
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Either our Vision RB solid state preamp or our Transcendence 10 vacuum tube preamp will work great with the SET 400 power amp.
It just depends on whether you would like a small touch of romantic tube sound or a bit closer to the real world for your choice.
Both are the same price and both look identical using our brand new much upgraded silver faceplates. Remote control standard, phono section optional.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=244779)
Frank