AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: aniwolfe on 30 Oct 2019, 07:05 pm
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https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf
Tried this method on my M3 TM and it was very positive. The sound stage which I thought was very good before, improved significantly. Center image and this slight wrap around effect from left to right is what I noticed the most. Soundstage width decreased just a smidge, overall a must try, these Speakers are so light, so no excuses.
If you have tried this method please let me know your results.
Thanks,
Tom
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I haven't tried that with my Spatial speakers, but it is a method that works well with horns.
Shakey
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This is about how I set up the M3TM except perhaps crossing over closer to face. Provided a stronger center image. Still very good off axis listening. M3TM are excellent at imaging especially when the recording is mixed for imaging. Well recorded chamber music really brings it out.
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I also perceive a more holographic presentation that I didn't notice before.
I didn't like pointing direct to head or ears, much preferred slight toe-in or straight, but this is much more desirable.
If your afraid your listening pleasure might increase by 10-20% then DON'T TRY THIS!
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Soundstage width of my m4tm has never been its strength, as sound hardly ever extends beyond the sides of the speakers. I have them now crossed facing me directly, but will give your suggestion a try since being holographic is definitely a plus. Rmbed I tried this in the past, but ever since adding a sub into the system, I've never experimented again.
The thing with this article is that these results are for traditional boxed speakers, and over the past year I've realised that open baffles react very differently to boxed speakers. They seldom load the room, and also 'first reflection point' issues off the sides of the speakers is hardly an issue, because the sides of OBs are basically null points as the front and back waves cancel each other out.
This may be why the soundstage doesn't extend very far off the side of the speakers, and also left me wondering at the start, why there was little to no improvement when I added diffusion panels at the first reflection points on the side wall (made a lot of diff when I had my bookshelves).
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Not to take away anyone’s thunder but this setup method has been around for a while, particularly promoted by Dr. Earl Geddes, Tom Danley, Duke LeJeune, Wayne Parnham, etc...
Bill Waslo has a pretty nice explanation:
http://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf
It’s also how I setup my speakers.
Best,
Anand.
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@poseidonsvoice
Thanks for posting the article here. Much appreciated.
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No Thunder stolen. :thumb:
Audio Enthusiasts talk a lot about things that have been around for many years. You will be surprised at how many things get forgotten. So its helpful to remind ourselves sometimes. I don't know anyone that currently sets up Spatials with this type of Extreme Toe-In setup. If anyone wants to come forward, please do and share your experience.
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I will probably give it a go this weekend. I currently have mine toed in to fire just behind my head. During the break in process, this seemed to be the best sounding configuration. Pointing them directly at me resulted in hard panned images coming directly off the face of the speakers. Now that they are probably(?) fully broken in I will play around with toe in some more.
Shakey
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For a couple of years I ran very wide mid-field setup with extreme toe-in:
1.) Single driver speakers;
2.) Room was (is) 13ft wide;
3.) Speakers were setup roughly 10ft wide and 6ft from front wall, listener 10ft from front wall;
4.) Speakers aimed to cross about 2ft in front of listener;
5.) Have 7ft long captive speaker cables so setup made possible by use of mono-blocks.
No loss of center sound stage, improved imaging.
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I also have my M3TS toed in but not to the extreme. To those who say they have not heard the soundstage go outside of the speakers, I have not had that problem, in fact, after I upgraded the crossovers on a Norah Jones cut, I heard sounds to my right and even in BACK of the perpendicular right of my listening position! But then again, this is with the upgrade AND using the DIY Hallowgraphs, which for me are essential in getting the soundstage right. It used to be as a general rule toeing them in (Hallowgraphs) made for a tighter sound and out for a more expansive sound, but much depends on where the mikes were placed at the time of the recording. Some classical orchestra's sound better with them toed in and other with it out, sometimes center--it varies.
I'm a big fan of the Spatial's ability to create pinpoint soundstaging--is only improved by the Hallowgraphs IMO.
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The way my X3s are currently set up, I get information outside the speaker locations. The SS width is the size of my room when the recording allows.
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So recently I read this article >> http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/ (http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/)
(http://thehighfidelityreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/EQT-Room-Fig22-193x300.jpg)
Tried this method on my M3 TM and it was very positive. The sound stage which I thought was very good before, improved significantly. Center image and this slight wrap around effect from left to right is what I noticed the most. Soundstage width decreased just a smidge, overall a must try, these Speakers are so light, so no excuses.
If you have tried this method please let me know your results.
Thanks,
Tom
I did not have my M3TS set up with this extreme toe-in, but do have my Tannoy's (also a 15" coaxial loaded driver) set up this way per their recommendations and they were right. They sound fantastic when crossed in front of the listener.
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I don't have Spatials(yet!) but I toe in my Tektons so they cross about a foot in front of the listening position.The soundstage is much wider and even taller now.
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I did not have my M3TS set up with this extreme toe-in, but do have my Tannoy's (also a 15" coaxial loaded driver) set up this way per their recommendations and they were right. They sound fantastic when crossed in front of the listener.
Thats awesome! I hope one day to hear a pair of Tannoys!
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I don't have Spatials(yet!) but I toe in my Tektons so they cross about a foot in front of the listening position.The soundstage is much wider and even taller now.
I had the Tekton before the Spatials. Nice speaker, wish I tried this method with them. Oh well! Thanks for the message.
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I also have my M3TS toed in but not to the extreme. To those who say they have not heard the soundstage go outside of the speakers, I have not had that problem, in fact, after I upgraded the crossovers on a Norah Jones cut, I heard sounds to my right and even in BACK of the perpendicular right of my listening position! But then again, this is with the upgrade AND using the DIY Hallowgraphs, which for me are essential in getting the soundstage right. It used to be as a general rule toeing them in (Hallowgraphs) made for a tighter sound and out for a more expansive sound, but much depends on where the mikes were placed at the time of the recording. Some classical orchestra's sound better with them toed in and other with it out, sometimes center--it varies.
I'm a big fan of the Spatial's ability to create pinpoint soundstaging--is only improved by the Hallowgraphs IMO.
I'm not saying the spatials don't produce sound outside of the speakers. I've also experienced 'knocking' coming from behind me on the right side (which is where my door is located), and sometimes get fooled into thinking someone was actually knocking on the door (Song: Airplane - Melissa Menago).
Soundstage does go outside the speaker around the room when it calls for, but I'm only describing my experience along the horizontal pane where my speakers are positioned. For me, it never extends more than 1 foot off the side of my m4tms, whereas I've heard spks that seem to extend beyond the boundary of my side wall, maybe 3-4 feet to the right of where my right spk stands.
Nonetheless, this could be a solo problem for myself as my listening room is very small, and for those of you who have space to the side of your spatials, the soundstage could extend further to the side than what I'm experiencing.
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I had the Tekton before the Spatials. Nice speaker, wish I tried this method with them. Oh well! Thanks for the message.
Interesting thing is I know of someone who sold off his M3TM in favour of some Tektons, when he had them both side by side in his setup. He mentioned the Tektons having a way more defined bass (which I kinda doubt), but to each his own.
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For a couple of years I ran very wide mid-field setup with extreme toe-in:
1.) Single driver speakers;
2.) Room was (is) 13ft wide;
3.) Speakers were setup roughly 10ft wide and 6ft from front wall, listener 10ft from front wall;
4.) Speakers aimed to cross about 2ft in front of listener;
5.) Have 7ft long captive speaker cables so setup made possible by use of mono-blocks.
No loss of center sound stage, improved imaging.
This sounds really interesting, how long was your room? Also 13ft?
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This sounds really interesting, how long was your room? Also 13ft?
Room is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios), includes (6) GIK 244 "full range" and (4) "range limiter" 2ft x 4ft panels, as well as three tall randomly filled bookcases on the side walls. Room was purpose built for solo 2 channel listening in the front and office setup in the back, is well insulated, drywall walls/ceiing, carpeted slab on grade floor, and has (3) 20 amp cryogenically treated hospital grade duplex receptacles for audio each on a separate 12 gauge/20 amp dedicated circuit and are grounded together/separate from the rest of the house.
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Here is my setup. You Spatial owners need to try this....sound is unbelievable.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200407)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200409)
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Here’s what I recommend.
Pull your speakers out as far as possible into the room, and keep them at least 3’ away from the side walls. The more room you give them to breathe the better they sound.
A wide soundstage is much better than a narrow soundstage so the listening position needs to be situated relatively closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers. The closer you sit, the broader the soundstage. For example, my speakers are 12’ apart from each other and my listening position is a little more than 8’ away from the speakers. At this intersection the angle between the two speakers is about 90 degrees, which is similar to the arrangement used by recording and mixing engineers in the studio. This creates a front row center experience.
After you have sorted out the above, turn the speakers so they are on axis pointed directly at you. Then relaxed listen with your eyes closed and make incremental adjustments to one speaker at a time. Take your time, listen carefully and be patient. You should be able to hear a difference even a very small / slight adjustment makes.
It took me 2 months to settle on what I believe is the best possible placement in my room. After much experimentation I have found that the height of the speakers in relation to the ears also makes a difference. So after much experimentation I settled on the ideal height and built my own risers that also serve as isolation platforms.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200411)
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Here’s what I recommend.
Pull your speakers out as far as possible into the room, and keep them at least 3’ away from the side walls. The more room you give them to breathe the better they sound.
A wide soundstage is much better than a narrow soundstage so the listening position needs to be situated relatively closer to the speakers than the distance between the two speakers. The closer you sit, the broader the soundstage. For example, my speakers are 12’ apart from each other and my listening position is a little more than 8’ away from the speakers. At this intersection the angle between the two speakers is about 90 degrees, which is similar to the arrangement used by recording and mixing engineers in the studio. This creates a front row center experience.
After you have sorted out the above, turn the speakers so they are on axis pointed directly at you. Then relaxed listen with your eyes closed and make incremental adjustments to one speaker at a time. Take your time, listen carefully and be patient. You should be able to hear a difference even a very small / slight adjustment makes.
It took me 2 months to settle on what I believe is the best possible placement in my room. After much experimentation I have found that the height of the speakers in relation to the ears also makes a difference. So after much experimentation I settled on the ideal height and built my own risers that also serve as isolation platforms.
Thats great advice. However did you try this extreme toe-in method? I just want to hear from at least one Spatial owner that has tried it? Good or Bad results
Within the constraints of my room this is the most I can bring out my speakers (23"- 37"). I have tried your method and how I have it setup is the best I have heard the Spatials. I have a wide soundstage that is very addictive to listen to. Center image is locked and very holographic.
Anyone want to join S.E.T.C.? SPATIAL EXTREME TOE-IN CLUB? Its FREE just like the speaker setup method.
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Thats great advice. However did you try this extreme toe-in method?
I spent two months doing this. When you take your time making systematic incremental adjustments you’ll know when you’ve swung too far one way or the other. This method allows you to hone in on the best possible result but it takes time and requires patience, it’s not something you do in few hours. Subtle adjustments make a difference to the discerning ear. Most people put far too little effort into placement without ever coming close to getting the optimum result. Cookie cutter methods like the equilateral triangle and Cardas method etc are fine as starting points, hell anything is better than simply putting them wherever one thinks they otta go.
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I spent two months doing this. When you take your time making systematic incremental adjustments you’ll know when you’ve swung too far one way or the other. This method allows you to hone in on the best possible result but it takes time and requires patience, it’s not something you do in few hours. Subtle adjustments make a difference to the discerning ear. Most people put far too little effort into placement without ever coming close to getting the optimum result. Cookie cutter methods like the equilateral triangle and Cardas method etc are fine as starting points, hell anything is better than simply putting them wherever one thinks they otta go.
Windchaser...Did you try this extreme toe-in method?
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I just tried this with my M3TMs and not good for me. I have experimented all over the place for almost 50 years and keep coming back to a triangle with speakers aimed at my head. Only exception is when I toe out to alleviate a too hot tweeter. This is probably room dependent. What does work for me is my QOL unit. Expands stage to well outside speakers with no downside to my ears. Too bad it isn't made any longer.
If you find one, buy it.
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With my M3TS, I DID try extreme toe-in AND toe-out, and I agree with WindChaser that incremental movements over time work best to allow you to hear and adjust and REMEMBER what you are hearing. I have no doubt that WC's setup works great for his room, BUT, rooms are different, ears are different etc., and you have to decide. For myself, I tend to get ear fatigue (listening to subtle differences) so it's best to let things settle in.
In my space I have the speakers about 8' apart and sit about 9' from the respective speakers. They are toed in a bit which means where I sit there is a partial wall about 18" behind my head, using a laser pointer I have the outside edge of the speaker/plane pointed about 15" on each side of the wall, where my head position is, if that makes any sense. Don't know about the math.
Just do what works best for you in your room and you should hear pin point imaging and with the right recordings huge sound stage!
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With my M3TS, I DID try extreme toe-in AND toe-out, and I agree with WindChaser that incremental movements over time work best to allow you to hear and adjust and REMEMBER what you are hearing. I have no doubt that WC's setup works great for his room, BUT, rooms are different, ears are different etc., and you have to decide. For myself, I tend to get ear fatigue (listening to subtle differences) so it's best to let things settle in.
In my space I have the speakers about 8' apart and sit about 9' from the respective speakers. They are toed in a bit which means where I sit there is a partial wall about 18" behind my head, using a laser pointer I have the outside edge of the speaker/plane pointed about 15" on each side of the wall, where my head position is, if that makes any sense. Don't know about the math.
Just do what works best for you in your room and you should hear pin point imaging and with the right recordings huge sound stage!
Thanks Ric for your response. I like to keeping an open mind about things regardless about what I am told I should do from experts or reviewers. I have tried for months making many adjustments...ET is so far my favorite for my room.
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I just tried this. Hated it. It was as if the image went from solid between the speakers to being somewhat confused in my setup. Center image still held but soundstage just went out of whack. (That is the only way to describe it.)
I also lost some depth, despite my setup not being able to provide depth in the soundstage much. Which is not what I would expect.
Just another data point for you.
-dave
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I've only finally managed to find time to try this extreme toe in method. Toed in prior to any music playing and after toeing in, then I started up a couple of tracks.
Unfortunately, this method didn't work in my room either. The centre imaging sounded compressed and diffused at the same time, not sure how that's possible. It just sounded hollow, yet congested, as if the singer was having a flu - almost sounding out of phase. Soundstage got narrower and though I expected the depth to increase, that wasn't the case. Depth actually decreased, and everything else wasn't coherent enough for me to enjoy it..
Oh well.. least I tried.
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I tried it too. Didn't work for me either. The most natural position in my room is with the speakers crossing just behind my head.
Shakey
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HAHAHA made you do it :lol:
M3 Sapphires on order.... I will try with those as well.
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May I suggest trying them as far apart as possible firing straight ahead. Keep moving apart the center image is lost then move back until back. Then move your listening chair about the same distance as center to center between speakers. Then play with toe-in. Also should be a minimum of 1/3 out into room. Have fun.
charles
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HAHAHA made you do it :lol:
M3 Sapphires on order.... I will try with those as well.
In my room I had the M3TM with fairly aggressive toe in crossing a few inches in front of my face. So far with the M3 Sapphires I am using less toe in aimed more near the ears. Of course that may change some as I am still early in the process.
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I am glad I came across this thread. I tried the extreme toe-in with my X1’s, It worked great in my 18x17 room!
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Thread resurrection…
I am just today doing the extreme toe-in with my M3 Turbo S speakers. A worthwhile setup in my room. I had always used a laser measure to get everything just ‘right’ for toe and distance. I went from aiming at my ears to crossing in front about 2.5 feet.
I MUCH prefer the presentation this way. My room is an odd shape, and always a challenge; not only did the extreme toe-in really anchor the center image, it seems to have done so without hampering soundstage width. Depth increased too. I wish I’d have done this sooner. Aesthetics plays a role though- my room opens to the dining room, and only an audio buff will appreciate seeing more of the back of the M3’s…
I’ve tried the off-axis seats and couch, where I do most of my listening, and the center image seems pretty solid there too.
So, preliminarily, I’ve got to agree with aniwolfe, though it’s been four years since he espoused this.
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Thread resurrection…
I am just today doing the extreme toe-in with my M3 Turbo S speakers. A worthwhile setup in my room. I had always used a laser measure to get everything just ‘right’ for toe and distance. I went from aiming at my ears to crossing in front about 2.5 feet.
I MUCH prefer the presentation this way. My room is an odd shape, and always a challenge; not only did the extreme toe-in really anchor the center image, it seems to have done so without hampering soundstage width. Depth increased too. I wish I’d have done this sooner. Aesthetics plays a role though- my room opens to the dining room, and only an audio buff will appreciate seeing more of the back of the M3’s…
I’ve tried the off-axis seats and couch, where I do most of my listening, and the center image seems pretty solid there too.
So, preliminarily, I’ve got to agree with aniwolfe, though it’s been four years since he espoused this.
You're making a good point each and every room is different, so unless you open your mind and try something you never know. In audio speaker setup, you have to "learn" how the speakers interact with your room and you can only do that by playing with them because the acoustics of a given room impact the sound we hear. It never ceases to amaze me how much it does and when I see pictures of systems where $$$$ or more is spent and see little money spent on room acoustics, with a couch butting up to the speaker's sides, chairs on the other, open glass windows and so on, and I ask why to spend so much on the gear and so little to make a good listening room. I recently changed my listening room acoustic panels to freshen up the room after painting, I had to learn on they would impact the sound and place them in the best spots. The sound could go from huge and transparent but lacking deep bass to lots of bass but lacking air, so we have to find the in-between and after 3 years I nailed it. On mono recording the image is just open between the speakers with believable imaging, but the scary thing is when you hear a vocalist, they are so tone right and real you picture faces in your head that is the brain connecting to the face and seeing the artist on video and saying that is that person. Stereo is spread out evenly from speaker to speaker and is rock solid and stable with deep and natural transparency with brightness. So, in short, the speakers now are lock on and working together and a speaker I enjoyed before is now something special, no gear changes or cables just $900 in new panels. and I used a few of the old panels, the corner bass traps, and absortion panel on the front wall and 3 in my windows, with the sides walls a combination of absorption and diffusion panels.
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Day 2- still digging the imaging and depth that this provided.
Some measurements so we’re comparing apples to apples- the Turbos are 7 ft apart, tweeter to tweeter. My listening chair is about 9.5 ft from each speaker. The left speaker has a true corner, the right opens to a dining room.
The speakers are 2’11” from the inside corner, 3’10” from the outside corner to the front wall. This shows the fairly extreme toe-in.
It’s a living room, so it’s pretty well damped- curtains, couch, 2 chairs, 9x12 rug. Room size itself is approximately 12’ x 16’ with a vaulted ceiling. But it opens to a dining room, and the entire back opens to a hallway and a short set of stairs.
I don’t think extreme toe-in would work as well with a wide dispersion tweeter- the Turbos I believe have an 80 degree dispersion pattern. This is major, as I am pretty sure that ‘modern’ Spatials don’t use the compression tweeter and it’s dispersion pattern. That would explain the varying results.
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Another thing, an interesting side effect is that I’ve turned down my subs one hash mark each- maybe I was compensating with bass for the extra tweeter output directed at my listening position.
Everything matters in this hobby/obsession/fixation/neurosis…
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Another thing, an interesting side effect is that I’ve turned down my subs one hash mark each- maybe I was compensating with bass for the extra tweeter output directed at my listening position.
Everything matters in this hobby/obsession/fixation/neurosis…
Yes, you were trying to balance the tweeter and how it was positioned towards you with the sub and get a better balance. Now it's not needed. Good news because it means you are trying new things and learning about your speaker's inaction within your room and when they sound their best. Now enjoy your work.
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I found this video from Ron at NRD > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1NP-s2p_pw
I am still using this method today with great results with my X2's. Anyone with a waveguided driver (i.e. X3 and X4 etc) should try this. I feel I get 100% of the speaker with extreme toe-in. Center image is locked and reduces the small sweet spot that was annoying. Also reduces side wall and first reflection issues. Everything from lows to highs is more real. Free tweak and Happy Holidays to all here.
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I’m still enjoying the extremely toed-in M3 Turbo S. Glad you brought it up…
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Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.
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Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.
Yep. Extreme toe-in sounds different, not necessarily better. I did it for a while, then put them back either straight ahead or slightly toed in.
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Another benefit with Extreme Toe-In...I don't need to use my L&R Balance Control anymore!
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Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.
This!
Every tweeter's horizontal dispersion is different, every room is different
Same room different speaker/tweeter - Toe in changes for best sound staging.
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So recently I read this article >> http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/ (http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/)
When I click on that link it takes me to the "Black Cat Cable" website...
Interesting thread though.
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When I click on that link it takes me to the "Black Cat Cable" website...
Interesting thread though.
Yep old links sometimes change. But check this one out! https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf
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I tried extreme toe-in last night after reading this thread with interest. It didn’t work with my M3S’s in my room. Center image was less defined, soundstage shrunk, and I lost quite a bit of bass impact. Still, it was free and fun to try. Just thought I’d circle back with a data point.
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I tried extreme toe-in last night after reading this thread with interest. It didn’t work with my M3S’s in my room. Center image was less defined, soundstage shrunk, and I lost quite a bit of bass impact. Still, it was free and fun to try. Just thought I circle back with my experience.
You are right. Every speaker is different, my Sapphire M3 sounds the best in my open loft area where the tweeter is right between my neck and shoulder, closer to my neck area. One thing you learn is that all rules of speaker setup are general at best as a start then you move them in and out to learn about the speaker's sound changes then the toe-in the same, so you will understand how the speakers react and when they sound their best. On toe-in when I think I got it right I will then toe-in 1/4" each way and so if I lose the magic when I do I know where I have them is correct for my room and back they go to the spot that sounded best. Now I have peace of mind.
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I happened to have a work friend over to listen- he likes music but isn’t a gear head, and doesn’t know the lingo we use…
First thing he commented on was that it sounded like the music was coming out of the fireplace (M3 Turbo S are on either side).
Next he said it didn’t sound like anything was coming out of the speakers themselves.
So, imaging and disappearing act: check.
I use the extreme toe-in and I’d approximate they cross two feet in front of the listening chair. I guess with a laser pointer and some cardboard I could measure the plane exactly.
So overall, still enjoying the hell out of extreme toe-in, and got some validation from a civilian…
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This is interesting and I had never seen this video before but I came to this same conclusion with my speakers. I have Cube Nenuphar Minis, which are 8" single drivers. I've loved everything about the speakers except they tend to present the headphone effect where sound, especially vocals, can beam out of one speaker or the other. I had never toed in speakers very aggressively and one day, being frustrated with the image, I moved the speakers a little closer together and then toed in so the right speaker pointed to the left outside edge of the listening position and the left speaker pointed to the outside edge of the right of the listening position. Essentially, the speakers cross probably 2' in front of the listening area. And, holy moly! The sound was awesome. Speakers disappeared, deep detailed image, no loss in bass. Only issue was the image was so locked in to the middle it was a bit narrow. Over time I slowly pulled the speakers out wider and another 6" into the room and it has continued to improve. To make sure I wasn't nuts I went back to traditional position that's worked with other speakers with a touch of toe in, and I tried no toe in, and again the sound was very L/R dominant. So, maybe depending on the room and speakers this method works. Certainly is working for me.
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This is interesting and I had never seen this video before but I came to this same conclusion with my speakers. I have Cube Nenuphar Minis, which are 8" single drivers. I've loved everything about the speakers except they tend to present the headphone effect where sound, especially vocals, can beam out of one speaker or the other. I had never toed in speakers very aggressively and one day, being frustrated with the image, I moved the speakers a little closer together and then toed in so the right speaker pointed to the left outside edge of the listening position and the left speaker pointed to the outside edge of the right of the listening position. Essentially, the speakers cross probably 2' in front of the listening area. And, holy moly! The sound was awesome. Speakers disappeared, deep detailed image, no loss in bass. Only issue was the image was so locked in to the middle it was a bit narrow. Over time I slowly pulled the speakers out wider and another 6" into the room and it has continued to improve. To make sure I wasn't nuts I went back to traditional position that's worked with other speakers with a touch of toe in, and I tried no toe in, and again the sound was very L/R dominant. So, maybe depending on the room and speakers this method works. Certainly is working for me.
Every room is different which is why you have to experiment and all speakers no matter the design you have to take the time to learn how they interact within your room and how the sound changes as you move in and out and toe in. It takes time, my Shappires M3's can sound defused, bright if not setup right, once I got that correct it was like a totally different speaker, setup matters and your room acoustics matter.
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Every situation is different. I have three X3s up front (surround audio) plus two older SVS bookshelf speakers in the rear (ITU format). The X3s are five feet out from the front wall. The MLP is 10 feet from the X3s and 9 feet from the rear bookshelves. The X3s are 10 feet across (from the middle of the baffle). There are three recliners and the MLP is the center recliner.
I tried extreme toe-in. My intention was to make the soundstage roughly equal along the three recliners. It kind of worked but I thought the MLP sound was a bit degraded. As I thought about it, I decided that extreme toe-in was not worthwhile for me. My two sons only visit once every few months. My wife (who sits in the left recliner) typically puts on her headsets and watches YouTube videos. The reality is that I am the only one who cares about superb audio (for music). I listen virtually every day while seated in the MLP. So, I quit extreme toe-in. In fact, with the wave guides, I keep my three X3s pointed straight ahead. Soundstage width and depth are fantastic. Sometimes, I need to move around my listening area. Music sounds great no matter where I am located. Of course, the MLP is the place to be for the best sound. When my sons visit, I invite one of them to sit in the MLP (they love my surround audio collection).
We use my system for home theater. No one has ever complained about the sound in each of the three recliners. I suspect running Audyssey XT32 helps (movies only). Music is routed differently and does not employ Audyssey.
My 2 cents.
Marcus
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Every situation is different. I have three X3s up front (surround audio) plus two older SVS bookshelf speakers in the rear (ITU format). The X3s are five feet out from the front wall. The MLP is 10 feet from the X3s and 9 feet from the rear bookshelves. The X3s are 10 feet across (from the middle of the baffle). There are three recliners and the MLP is the center recliner.
I tried extreme toe-in. My intention was to make the soundstage roughly equal along the three recliners. It kind of worked but I thought the MLP sound was a bit degraded. As I thought about it, I decided that extreme toe-in was not worthwhile for me. My two sons only visit once every few months. My wife (who sits in the left recliner) typically puts on her headsets and watches YouTube videos. The reality is that I am the only one who cares about superb audio (for music). I listen virtually every day while seated in the MLP. So, I quit extreme toe-in. In fact, with the wave guides, I keep my three X3s pointed straight ahead. Soundstage width and depth are fantastic. Sometimes, I need to move around my listening area. Music sounds great no matter where I am located. Of course, the MLP is the place to be for the best sound. When my sons visit, I invite one of them to sit in the MLP (they love my surround audio collection).
We use my system for home theater. No one has ever complained about the sound in each of the three recliners. I suspect running Audyssey XT32 helps (movies only). Music is routed differently and does not employ Audyssey.
My 2 cents.
Marc, the 3 speakers in the front take care of having a solid center image. This setup was big in the late 50's. So in your case, toe-in is a different set of circumstances. You got a great system, enjoy!