[BrandonB]

I don’t have any experience with the Border patrol. Looking at the inside of it, I doubt it’s on the same level as the ANK. The parts in the ANK are about the best you can get. The ANK I have is still well detailed, with a really good image focus. I still need to get about 100 more hrs on it to see how it turns out. So far I like it a lot. It’s making me want to build the 5.1 which I’m sure will be a significant upgrade.

Because of your post I actually called ANK today and asked about the different models.  They said going up in  models wasn't necessarily an upgrade.  He said if  you listen to classic rock like LedZepplin etc stick with the 2.1 it is more forgiving and sounds great.  If you like classical  really dynamic stuff etc go for the higher models.  I tend to like soundstage, voice, piano and acoustical stuff.  I also like rock from the 70s 80s early 90s.  He also said the person who builds the DAC's for him has a 5.1 and a 2.1 and he listens to the 2.1.   

[jmimac351]

Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose.  I'm figuring out what I want.  I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising.  Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new.  All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk. 

I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.

• RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
• TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
• Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
• Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
• Schiit Modi Multibit
• Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
• Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)

[2001vermont@gmail.com]

When I first built the NX-Oticas, I was using a Parasound JC2 preamp and JC5 amp. These are fairly nice products, but as I got into building my own gear, I found I liked my DIY builds better. The preamp I am currently using is still solid state, although I have a couple of tube preamps under construction.

When I first built the Purifi monoblocks, I was using the Neurochrome input buffers and only later replaced these with tube-based buffers. I also used my SS preamp with the Pass XA60.8 amps on the NX-Oticas, as well as the Neurochrome Mod286 monoblocks.

I've heard some exceptional solid state gear and I'm sure I could find SS equipment I'd be happy with. I will probably try to build more of my own in the next few years. In fact, I am currently building a pair of class A amps based on the new F5m design that Nelson Pass introduced at Burning Amp last year. I plan to use these to try out bi-amping my Line Forces with an active crossover.

The Terminator Plus is easily the best DAC I've owned, but not a huge difference over the original Terminator that I had before it. I haven't owned that many DACs, but over the past ten years, I've also used a Schitt Yggdrasil (which I still have in my workshop system), the Aurilic Vega G2 I have in my bedroom system, a Wyred4Sound DAC2, and a Levinson No 39 CD player (which I bought back in the late 90s).

The Terminator Plus has a very relaxed feel to it - very smooth yet detailed, with exceptional sound stage. I don't really have any complaints, and this is probably the last piece of gear that I would replace (except my Line Forces which are here to stay for good, at least until I have to downsize).

Nice job!

[Tyson]

Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose.  I'm figuring out what I want.  I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising.  Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new.  All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk. 

I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.

• RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
• TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
• Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
• Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
• Schiit Modi Multibit
• Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
• Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)

The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.

[BrandonB]

The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.

Tyson have you listened to the Ayre equipment before?

[WGH]

The Border Patrol DAC has a nice smooth sound with a laid-back presentation. It doesn't have the detail of higher-end DACs but is non-fatiguing and easy to listen to. It depends on what you are looking for. For me, the Border Patrol was too laid back.

I would imagine that the ANK DACs, particularly the upper models, would have the smoothness of the Border Patrol, but hopefully with more detail, sharper image focus, and a deeper/wider soundstage.

I learned a lot from reading posts by Ted Smith, PS Audio DirectStream’s lead developer.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518

In August 2020, Ted Smith talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip in the BorderPatrol NOS DAC (and still used in 2022). His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The SN Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight DAC I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs.

Ted wrote:
“It’s [Philips TDA 1543 DAC] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.

"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.

"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”


Three members in our audio club use ANK DACs, two 5.1s and a 2.1. The three systems are different so I can't hear the subtle differences between the 5.1 and 2.1. One member with the ANK 5.1 uses a Pass XA25 integrated amp with Magepan 1.7i speakers and a REL G2 sub. The sound is clear and detailed, not rolled off at all. Both 5.1 DACs use upgraded parts and cost between $5,500 - $6,000 to build.

But I'm not tempted to switch from my HoloAudio May KTE. The May may not be the best when used as purely a NOS DAC playing Redbook recordings but feed it hi-res PCM or DSD and it becomes an A+ DAC. I usually (but not always) prefer the sound of DSD (usually upsampled) compared to PCM and the ANK DACs don't do DSD or hi-res PCM. Sound Liaison has been releasing some nice music lately. Their recent Visual Sound Sampler ($13) is a nice introduction to their recordings. The sampler is in the original one-mic recording format DXD 352kHz (PCM WAV). All other formats are converted versions of the original. A FLAC-96kHz download compatible with ANK DACs is also available. With all the money I put into my stereo I like to hear what the producer intended instead of a downsampled copy.

... if  you listen to classic rock like LedZepplin etc stick with the 2.1 it is more forgiving and sounds great.

A buddy has the NX-Studio, go with the ANK 2.1.

[Presb4]

I had some Schiit before BF2/64 and Modi MB, and the Bifrost2/64 was very detailed but a bit glassy and harsh with my speakers Ina near-midfield setup. Great with headphones though. But the MHDT was a lot more natural and 3 dimensional sound even if slightly less detailed. I have upgraded some of the parts inside and plan to do more later. Definitely good dac for tinkering (cap and resistor swaps, rca plugs, tube rolling, etc).

I have a Bitfrost 2/64 and totally agree, it is a detail monster. Normally I love it, but sometimes I want to take it down a notch, that's when I switch out my SS amp for my push pull EL34 tube amp and it smooths out the sound a bit.

Looking to chase that smooth sound even further down the rabbit hole, I am currently building a Kegger Design, SE UL KT88 amp with some ISO iron.

Schiit Heads Rule 

[BrandonB]

I learned a lot from reading posts by Ted Smith, PS Audio DirectStream’s lead developer.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/r2r-dacs-vs-chip-dacs-vs-fpga-dacs/11518

In August 2020, Ted Smith talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip in the BorderPatrol NOS DAC (and still used in 2022). His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The SN Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight DAC I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs.

Ted wrote:
“It’s [Philips TDA 1543 DAC] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.

"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.

"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”


Three members in our audio club use ANK DACs, two 5.1s and a 2.1. The three systems are different so I can't hear the subtle differences between the 5.1 and 2.1. One member with the ANK 5.1 uses a Pass XA25 integrated amp with Magepan 1.7i speakers and a REL G2 sub. The sound is clear and detailed, not rolled off at all. Both 5.1 DACs use upgraded parts and cost between $5,500 - $6,000 to build.

But I'm not tempted to switch from my HoloAudio May KTE. The May may not be the best when used as purely a NOS DAC playing Redbook recordings but feed it hi-res PCM or DSD and it becomes an A+ DAC. I usually (but not always) prefer the sound of DSD (usually upsampled) compared to PCM and the ANK DACs don't do DSD or hi-res PCM. Sound Liaison has been releasing some nice music lately. Their recent Visual Sound Sampler ($13) is a nice introduction to their recordings. The sampler is in the original one-mic recording format DXD 352kHz (PCM WAV). All other formats are converted versions of the original. A FLAC-96kHz download compatible with ANK DACs is also available. With all the money I put into my stereo I like to hear what the producer intended instead of a downsampled copy.

A buddy has the NX-Studio, go with the ANK 2.1.

I read that article you sent.  Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter.  Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing.  Do you know anything about that.  The guys on the PS Audio forum's say it best the PS Audio MK2 and Terminator 2 etc.. 

[WGH]

Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter.  Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing.  Do you know anything about that.

I don't know how ANK DACs work. One of the guys in our group has a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK2, he used their trade-up program so no JK Richardson Mods in our audio gang.

[BrandonB]

I don't know how ANK DACs work. One of the guys in our group has a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK2, he used their trade-up program so no JK Richardson Mods in our audio gang.

Thanks for the info.  They are talking like that modded DAC is better than the MK2

[Presb4]

Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose.  I'm figuring out what I want.  I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising.  Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new.  All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk. 

I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.

• RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
• TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
• Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
• Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
• Schiit Modi Multibit
• Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
• Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)

jmimac351,
I would love to hear your opinion on the differences between the Schiit Bitfrost 2/64 and the Yaggy GS2. I was thinking of trading up from my Bitfrost 2/64 to the GS2, but just dont know how much of a change it would be.

I listened to a podcast once where Jason Stodderd said that he felt the Bitfrost 2/64 now has much of the technology/sound that made the Yaggy special. I have been very happy with the Bitfrost 2/64 in my system. But the GS2 version has me thinking that it might be a more cost effective way to step up and provide an upgrade path in the future.

I would be pairing it with the Tyr's and some other tube amps and the GR Brutes for good old rock n roll. So something that helps to deal with less than perfect recording would be an upgrade for me but hopefully still maintaining the sound stage and attack I currently have.

[BrandonB]

Right now, I have the following DACs under the roof... on purpose.  I'm figuring out what I want.  I've been swapping units in and out... and the results have been surprising.  Prices range from $143 used to $4850 new.  All but 1 was bought used and I can still return the new one... so it's been a pretty good test without too much risk. 

I haven't finished swapping them in and out but I've formed pretty clear opinions about this and I'm pretty sure of exactly what I'm going to do. Sure enough that I'm actively looking for one.

• RME ADI-2 DAC FS (AKM4493)
• TEAC UD-505 (AKM4497)
• Schiit Audio Modius (AKM4493)
• Schiit Audio Yggradrasil+ GS2 (Multibit)
• Schiit Modi Multibit
• Schiit Bifrost 2/64 (Multibit)
• Ayre Acoustics QB-9 Twenty (ES9038Q2M)

So is the Ayre winning?  I was looking at the Ayre preamps.  They are really nice.  Even the x series.

[jmimac351]

The Ayre is just in a different class than the rest of the gear, would be my guess.

The Ayre is what I owned prior to this other gear.  It started with the RME unit... and then I decided to bring in a number of other pieces and really try to figure out what I like.  It has been very interesting.  I've been switching between units in Real Time... which has really helped to experience differences.

The Yggdrasil is being returned.  It sounds good, but I can hear the transformers hum from 12' away.  There is a fix for it, but I shouldn't been popping the lid for a brand new product.  And given what I've experienced with the other gear, I don't think the value is there, ultimately.

Comments elsewhere about the Bifrost 2/64 being very / too detailed... that hasn't been my experience.  Different speakers, different preamp / amp... it sounds good to me.  I like the way the Bifrost sounds.  It uses the same chips as the "Less Is More" Yggdrasil, which is said to be a smooth sound.  Smooth, but still has detail.  I agree. 

The Modius is an AKM4493 DAC (same chip as RME) and it sounds good... and is so inexpensive.  I will be keeping that one, no matter what.  However, just because it has the same chip as the RME does not mean it "is an RME".

The last piece I will put back into the party is the Ayre.

Here is what has been very illumnating, and I would never have considered trying it if not for a friend with a pair of Wilson Audio Duette just like mine.  He's a 2 channel guy and can buy whatever he wants.  He raved about the RME and kept telling me I had to try it. He's replaced gear costing 10X what it does.

Well, it's been a revelation.  Mine has the AKM4493, but it's different that the Modius... and every one of these other DACs.  There is something different going on with the dynamics.  There is a feature called "Auto Reference Level" that makes automatic adjustments according to volume level that still gets 100% of the dynamic range of the chip.  You can hear it clicking It has to be experienced to be appreciated.  It makes the other DACs, so far, sound flat by comparison.  It's not a volume level difference thing... it's just some sort of voodoo magic, I guess.

Plus, it can drive an amp directly, has 5 band PEQ, plus separate configurable bands for Bass & Treble.  20 EQ presets plus EQ preset designed for each individual Digital Filter. System-wide DAC configuration setups can be saved.  It goes on and on... I think it will make a ham sandwich.

I am going to visit GR Research next week.  The unit is small enough to put in my helmet bag on the plane.  I think I'm going to bring it and let Danny & Hobbs hear it.

I am absolutely an "analog / tube-ish" guy... but I also know if something makes me happy.

[mkrawcz]

I read that article you sent.  Does the ANK DAC's have some sort of output filter.  Also I was reading and have ran across The JK Richardson Mods on the PS Audio direct stream mk1 DAC's that is suppose to be amazing.  Do you know anything about that.  The guys on the PS Audio forum's say it best the PS Audio MK2 and Terminator 2 etc..

The ANK DACs are 1x oversampling. Meaning they are NOS DACs, so they have no filter.

[Jaytor]

The ANK DACs are 1x oversampling. Meaning they are NOS DACs, so they have no filter.

1x sampling does not preclude the use of an output filter. The ANK DACs use a transformer I/V converter. This, combined with a shunt capacitor after the transformer forms a low-pass filter. It is not a very steep filter, but will still provide some reduction in higher order harmonics.

[mkrawcz]

Just noticed that PS audio is selling the BHK250 half off right now in case anyone interested.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-250-amplifier

[BrandonB]

I wanted to know the feedback of my new amplifier.  I didn't know anything about feedback until this thread.  I texted the designer Steve McCormack online and he replied that it has about 6db of negative feedback.  He said beyond that it starts to affect the sound.  Im not sure what 6db of feedback is.  If anyone can explain let me know.

[Jaytor]

I wanted to know the feedback of my new amplifier.  I didn't know anything about feedback until this thread.  I texted the designer Steve McCormack online and he replied that it has about 6db of negative feedback.  He said beyond that it starts to affect the sound.  Im not sure what 6db of feedback is.  If anyone can explain let me know.

6db of feedback means that half the voltage gain of the amplifier is fed back to the input. The McCormick DNA has a voltage gain of about 38. Assuming this is with 6db feedback, the gain without feedback would be about 76x This is fairly modest feedback, but is enough to improve the THD and damping factor and increase effective frequency response.

All amplifiers have reduced gain as the frequency goes up once you get past the dominant pole of the circuit. Applying negative feedback will improve the frequency response by reducing the effective gain below this pole. In the case of the McCormick DNA, the -3db point with 6db of feedback is spec'ed at 250Khz. With zero feedback, the -3db point would be approximately 200Khz. This is still pretty good.

But because the amp's gain falls off above this point, the feedback is less effective at reducing harmonic distortion components at higher frequencies. In this case, the bandwidth is pretty high, so it's unlikely you'd be able to hear this effect since the harmonics that would have less reduction would be many octaves above human hearing limits.

For amplifiers with lower open-loop dominant poles, this can have a more pronounced effect since it's likely more feedback will be required to achieve reasonable frequency response, and this feedback will knock down the low order harmonics (particularly  2nd and 3rd) much more than higher order harmonics.

[BrandonB]

6db of feedback means that half the voltage gain of the amplifier is fed back to the input. The McCormick DNA has a voltage gain of about 38. Assuming this is with 6db feedback, the gain without feedback would be about 76x This is fairly modest feedback, but is enough to improve the THD and damping factor and increase effective frequency response.

All amplifiers have reduced gain as the frequency goes up once you get past the dominant pole of the circuit. Applying negative feedback will improve the frequency response by reducing the effective gain below this pole. In the case of the McCormick DNA, the -3db point with 6db of feedback is spec'ed at 250Khz. With zero feedback, the -3db point would be approximately 200Khz. This is still pretty good.

But because the amp's gain falls off above this point, the feedback is less effective at reducing harmonic distortion components at higher frequencies. In this case, the bandwidth is pretty high, so it's unlikely you'd be able to hear this effect since the harmonics that would have less reduction would be many octaves above human hearing limits.

For amplifiers with lower open-loop dominant poles, this can have a more pronounced effect since it's likely more feedback will be required to achieve reasonable frequency response, and this feedback will knock down the low order harmonics (particularly  2nd and 3rd) much more than higher order harmonics.

From a layman reading this it sounds like Steve McCormack did a decent job at controlling the negative effects of negative feedback.  Do you also prefer the sound of no negative feedback?

[Tyson]

McCormack makes very good sounding amps, IMO.  The low/moderate feedback is one of the reasons, IMO. 

The problem with a lot of SS gear is some manufacturers are spec driven and using a lot of feedback helps to get THD+N lower.  The problem, IMO, is that the feedback pulls out the lower order harmonics (primarily 2nd and 3rd) and that makes them sound sterile, to my ears. 

Part of the reason the FirstWatt amps sound so good, is their use of no/low feedback. 

Lots of feedback to reduce THD+N is a case of 'measuring better' not equaling 'sounding better'.