[Guy 13]

Hi Danny.
What would be the simplest crossover for a pair of M130-16 (87.7dB)
or M165-16 (88.9dB) and a GR-T3 (92dB) tweeter?
I was thinking about a single Sonicap capacitor
and maybe a resistor to bring down the 92dB sensivity of the tweeter
to the same level as the woofers.
Will that combo get near 90dB efficiency?
I had in mind to take away from my wife the GR Research (Modify) N3
that she use for the Home Theater set up,
but she told me:
Over my dead body !
I wanted to tell her that it could be arranged,
but I did not wanted to start a third world war…
At first I had in mind the Parker Audio 95MKII
similar to the N3 but with 4 Ohms impedance
(Very good with my Decware SE84C+ amplifier)
and 95dB efficient,
(Very good for a 2wpc Decware SET amplifier.
But, why not buy from Danny?
He’s a good guy,
he’s been good with me in the past
and he’s certainly been patient with a pain in the neck like me.
The Parker Audio kit is 330 USD and your kit would be about
180 USD almost half the price of the Parker Audio kit,
but your with half the sensibility, but what the heck,
I don’t listen to my music at discotheque level.
What would you suggest?
That purchase if approved by my mister of finance,
who’s also my wife, will be done in October 2014.

Guy 13

[Danny Richie]

What would be the simplest crossover for a pair of M130-16 (87.7dB) or M165-16 (88.9dB) and a GR-T3 (92dB) tweeter?

He that is the way I always look at crossover design. I like to use the least (and most simple) crossover design that I can. I have a kit already using a pair of M-130/16's and the GR-T3 tweeter. See it here:

http://gr-research.com/av-3.aspx

I was thinking about a single Sonicap capacitor and maybe a resistor to bring down the 92dB sensivity of the tweeter to the same level as the woofers.

Nope, no way that will work well with just a first order crossover.

Will that combo get near 90dB efficiency?

The A/V-3 has 91db sensitivity.

I had in mind to take away from my wife the GR Research (Modify) N3 that she use for the Home Theater set up, but she told me: Over my dead body ! I wanted to tell her that it could be arranged, but I did not wanted to start a third world war…

Be careful Guy. We don't want to loose you.

What would you suggest?

Go with one of our kits and build it as per the plans. This gives you proven results. And the price of the kit is the same price as what the parts total. So I have taken all the guess work out of it. You get everything you need...

[Guy 13]

He that is the way I always look at crossover design. I like to use the least (and most simple) crossover design that I can. I have a kit already using a pair of M-130/16's and the GR-T3 tweeter. See it here:

http://gr-research.com/av-3.aspx

Nope, no way that will work well with just a first order crossover.

The A/V-3 has 91db sensitivity.

Be careful Guy. We don't want to loose you.

Go with one of our kits and build it as per the plans. This gives you proven results. And the price of the kit is the same price as what the parts total. So I have taken all the guess work out of it. You get everything you need...

Hi Danny,
thanks for your suggestion.
Your kit is still 149 USD more than the kit from Parker Audio.
I don't know why I write that?
I just contacted Parker Audio's owner because his website was down
to find out that he's shutting down his business, he's liquidating everything.
So much for that option.
Parker kit only use a single capacitor as a crossover for the tweeter
and he sold hundred of those kit, can't be that bad?
Yes, no, maybe ???
Therefore, are you still saying that it won't work well ? ? ?
I am not trying to start here argument,
(Minds you, sometimes; I do like arguments where they are conducted in a civilized matter.)
but I wonder why it works with someone and don't with other one.
My alternative to the Parker 95MKII kit is to buy your M130-16 or M165-16
with the tweeter and order from you or someone else the capacitor.
By the way, parker Audio use a Murdof brand capacitor.
Don't know the uF value of it.
By the way, I would prefer the M165-8 to the M130-16 for two reasons.
I prefer larger diameter woofers for more bass
and 4 Ohms (8 Ohms in parallel) because my Decware amplifier prefer/is more efficient with 4 Ohms load.
Please comment again, even if I think that you will still push your A/V-3 kit and that's normal,
it's a proven successful design, but that's not what I want
and it's 149 USD more and that small amount for you, is a big amount for me.

Guy 13

[Danny Richie]

I just contacted Parker Audio's owner because his website was down to find out that he's shutting down his business, he's liquidating everything. So much for that option.

There could be a reason for that. In contrast I have sold hundreds of A/V-3 kits.

Parker kit only use a single capacitor as a crossover for the tweeter he sold hundred of those kit, can't be that bad? Yes, no, maybe ???

I have been doing this a long time, and rarely do I see any application where a first order crossover works well for the tweeter to mid-bass crossover. I simple frequency response measurement will tell the tale.

And he sold hundreds of them? Really? I have never heard of them.

Therefore, are you still saying that it won't work well ? ? ? I am not trying to start here argument,

You can put a first order crossover on anything and make it play. However, in most cases it is far less than ideal. And more likely than not the speaker will suffer from problems associated with the effects it causes.

(Minds you, sometimes; I do like arguments where they are conducted in a civilized matter.) but I wonder why it works with someone and don't with other one.

Applications where first order slopes work are low crossover points (below 300Hz) or used with tweeters in a waveguide that has a natural knee in the response allowing a 1kHz or lower crossover point. Other than that there are typically out of phase cancellation above the crossover point and in the vertical off axis. Usually when you see them used they really don't work (or don't work well), but the designer doesn't know how to do anything else.

My alternative to the Parker 95MKII kit is to buy your M130-16 or M165-16 with the tweeter and order from you or someone else the capacitor. By the way, parker Audio use a Murdof brand capacitor. Don't know the uF value of it.

I can use a first order crossover with those drivers, but it will not be ideal and performance will be a long way from where it is with a well designed crossover. The Mundorf caps are a decent brand, but that alone doesn't change anything. The speaker will still have problems.

By the way, I would prefer the M165-8 to the M130-16 for two reasons. I prefer larger diameter woofers for more bass

Bigger drivers do not necessarily mean more bass. Because of the transmission line loading of the pair of M-130's in the A/V-3 design they will play as low and have just as much bass as the larger M-165 woofers in a ported design. And the M-130's are a little lighter and faster.

I do have some X-MTM classic kits and X-MTM Encore kits that are lower priced. See them here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90911.msg991903#msg991903

and 4 Ohms (8 Ohms in parallel) because my Decware amplifier prefer/is more efficient with 4 Ohms load.

I hope that amp works out for you. I have one customer that has had a lot of problems with his and can't get rid of a hum when using it. It's the only amp he has that he gets a hum with.

Please comment again, even if I think that you will still push your A/V-3 kit and that's normal, it's a proven successful design, but that's not what I want and it's 149 USD more and that small amount for you, is a big amount for me.

I will only recommend what I know will give good results.

If you are on a tight budget then look at the X-Series kits.

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi Danny

I agree with you,one capacitor crossover for the tweeter,man it's over done and cheap..!

[S Clark]

Years back one of my students used a M-130 woofer and the T1 tweeter with only a cap on the tweeter and a coil on the woofer- classic first order crossover.  It worked quite well from about 300 Hz to 10K Hz.  If you don't need bass, then ignore the baffles step loss and build what ever you want.   Designers don't use multiple parts in crossovers just because they like complexity- usually it's just the opposite.  Just don't think that slapping a MTM together with a cap is likely to be successful at a level acceptable to most members at AC.

[Captainhemo]

What's the sensitivity of the X CS  or X CS Encores ?  Must be close to the AV3 / N3's ...
Maybe look at building a pair of those  Guy ?

-jay

[Danny Richie]

What's the sensitivity of the X CS  or X CS Encores ?  Must be close to the AV3 / N3's ...
Maybe look at building a pair of those  Guy ?

-jay

90 to 91db sensitivity.

[Guy 13]

Hi (Again) Danny.
I don't know how to do like you, so I will do my best so you know who wrote what.

There could be a reason for that.
The reason for him to close down his business is probably known only to him.
So, please let not speculate on that.

In contrast I have sold hundreds of A/V-3 kits.
How can you compare you with him, when you don't know how many kits
and complete speakers he sold, maybe thousand ????
Please Danny don't say something like that.

I have been doing this a long time,
Maybe he also did ? ? ?

 and rarely do I see any application where a first order crossover works well for the tweeter to mid-bass crossover. I simple frequency response measurement will tell the tale.
All audiophiles are not all like you and many AC members.
Some find that set up (Single capa. Xover) good for them.
Not everyone have the same expectation from a speaker.
What is not too good for you, might be good and even very good for some else.
The proof to that is that he sold lots of his speaker sand so are other manufacturers...

And he sold hundreds of them? Really? I have never heard of them.
Because you never heard of him does that means his products are not (Too) good.
He was exhibiting at some shows, I am surprised you did not see his room, but of course you stick with different type of people.

You can put a first order crossover on anything and make it play. However, in most cases it is far less than ideal. And more likely than not the speaker will suffer from problems associated with the effects it causes.
That's you opinion and his your opinion word of God ?
Please step down from your podium when you talk to me, I am a peasant,
not and hi end audiophile.

Applications where first order slopes work are low crossover points (below 300Hz) or used with tweeters in a waveguide that has a natural knee in the response allowing a 1kHz or lower crossover point. Other than that there are typically out of phase cancellation above the crossover point and in the vertical off axis. Usually when you see them used they really don't work (or don't work well), but the designer doesn't know how to do anything else.
How come on Parker Audio's website there are plenty of satisfied customers, are they all ignorant about good sound ??? Or are they paid to promote the Parker Audio products. I think not !

I can use a first order crossover with those drivers, but it will not be ideal and performance will be a long way from where it is with a well designed crossover. The Mundorf caps are a decent brand, but that alone doesn't change anything. The speaker will still have problems.
I just happen to mention that brand because that's what he use.

Bigger drivers do not necessarily mean more bass. Because of the transmission line loading of the pair of M-130's in the A/V-3 design they will play as low and have just as much bass as the larger M-165 woofers in a ported design. And the M-130's are a little lighter and faster.
So, what you are saying is that in a equivalent enclosure the M165 will not play lower or have more bass, if that's so, why do you offer them ?
What's the best application for the M165 ?

I do have some X-MTM classic kits and X-MTM Encore kits that are lower priced. See them here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90911.msg991903#msg991903

I hope that amp works out for you. I have one customer that has had a lot of problems with his and can't get rid of a hum when using it. It's the only amp he has that he gets a hum with.
You cannot judge a product based only on one customer.
Come on Danny, you should know better than that.
I had the Decware for 5 years now and sure I had one problem, the output transformer went on the fritz, I got it rewinded here for 10 USD and now it works fine and not hum, even if I put my ear against the Omega 7F - 93db driver. 

I will only recommend what I know will give good results.
I agree with that, but you should also sell what the customer wants,
even if you don't think it will work 100%,
if a customer like me keep modifying your original design,
but still say that he's very satisfied with the sound
(Like my highly modified N3) then why not do it his way.
Did I ever complain to you that I was not satisfied with the sound of my modified speakers that were not according to your original design?
I think not !

If you are on a tight budget then look at the X-Series kits.
You are trying to help me by making me change my original idea and what I had in mind, I know, it's for my own good.
After spending some time on your website, I think the following is within my budget and close to the specifications I am looking for.
The X-CS Classic at 79 USD/each.
Don't need the X-MTM option, I have those items here.
Of course I will go with the floor stander cabinet.
Now, I really want 4 Ohms, can you substitute the M130-16 for M130 I would believe that the already fully assembled xover would have to be modified, is that possible by you or me?
The reason for that is that the Decware gives more power at 4 Ohms than 8 Ohms and since the Decware is only 2wpc, I like to get for for the same price.
What do you think?
By the way, nothing above is said aggressively, I am just trying to be direct without being impolite. You are entitle to your opinion based on your long time experience. Take everything I wrote with a grain of salt. O.K. ?

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Years back one of my students used a M-130 woofer and the T1 tweeter with only a cap on the tweeter and a coil on the woofer- classic first order crossover.  It worked quite well from about 300 Hz to 10K Hz.  If you don't need bass, then ignore the baffles step loss and build what ever you want.   Designers don't use multiple parts in crossovers just because they like complexity- usually it's just the opposite.  Just don't think that slapping a MTM together with a cap is likely to be successful at a level acceptable to most members at AC.

Hi S Clark.
Quote:
Just don't think that slapping a MTM together with a cap is likely to be successful at a level acceptable to most members at AC.
Unquote.
Here is the thing:
Outside the AC members community it's not the end of the world.
What is acceptable for none AC members is unacceptable for AC members, two different world.
I would say, I am between those two worlds.
Anyway, I am waiting for danny's comments
and then decide which way I will go.
If I decide to go the single capacitor way,
then all the AC members will be horrified by my decision
and will have an hart attack...

Guy 13

By the way: Even if you don't care,
I don't like your:
Just don't think...
You talk like you were my father or my boss.

[Guy 13]

Hi Danny

I agree with you,one capacitor crossover for the tweeter,man it's over done and cheap..!

Hi Georgopoulos.
That's your opinion, thank God, not mine.
 

Guy 13

[S Clark]

 I'll not post in your threads again.... a waste of my time.  Good luck with that MTM.

[Guy 13]

I'll not post in your threads again.... a waste of my time.  Good luck with that MTM.

Hi S Clark.
No problem with me.
It just confirm what I thought:
Your way is the only way.
If I don't think like you, it's no good.
Fine with me.

Guy 13

[corndog71]

Hi Guy,
I have to ask why do you even bother with Danny's speakers?  Why bother with international shipping?  Why make a fuss on the forum?  Just do what you want and order the parts you want and build what you want to build. 

I just hope you recognize that in a way you're disrespecting Danny and his expertise.  That is where the contention lies.   Nobody is saying you CAN'T do it.  But Danny and the others are saying it probably won't sound good based on their experience. 

I don't consider Danny a god.  Nobody is perfect.  But I respect his expertise based on the evidence provided by the years of successful speakers he's produced and satisfied customers.  His speakers sound fantastic.  They are ridiculously good for the money. 

Perhaps this is all a big misunderstanding due to differences in culture.  Maybe where you're from people don't respect experts and like to do things their way. 

Good luck with your speakers.

[Danny Richie]

In contrast I have sold hundreds of A/V-3 kits. How can you compare you with him, when you don't know how many kits and complete speakers he sold, maybe thousand ???? Please Danny don't say something like that.

Guy, if he was that popular then I would have heard of him before.

All audiophiles are not all like you and many AC members. Some find that set up (Single capa. Xover) good for them.

Most (not all) of the people that go with a first order crossover design do not have the means or the tools to do anything else. I see it all the time even from well known companies. I have had several bring their designs over for measuring and testing because they were not quite happy with them only to see that their speakers were riddled with more problems than they imagined. I have all their measurements to prove that. One company owner embarrassingly began to beg me to to tell anyone how his speakers really measured.

So it is not just a matter of one person liking one over another. First order designs have limitations.

Not everyone have the same expectation from a speaker. What is not too good for you, might be good and even very good for some else.

That's true that my expectations are different.

The proof to that is that he sold lots of his speaker sand so are other manufacturers...

I really don't know that he sold any real quantities. If you do a Google search on that speaker you mentioned it is hard to find more than just a few mentions of it. That says a lot.

Even so, Bose sold a lot of speakers. That doesn't mean they are great. It means they were well marketed.

You can put a first order crossover on anything and make it play. However, in most cases it is far less than ideal. And more likely than not the speaker will suffer from problems associated with the effects it causes.

That's you opinion and his your opinion word of God ? Please step down from your podium when you talk to me, I am a peasant, not and hi end audiophile.

The problems that I refer to are not a matter of opinion. They are fact. Provable, repeatable, measurable, and easy to see cause and effect.

How come on Parker Audio's website there are plenty of satisfied customers, are they all ignorant about good sound ??? Or are they paid to promote the Parker Audio products. I think not !

Where are they? I Googled the design got little to nothing. And for no more than he charged for that kit I wouldn't imagine expectations to be real high. I am sure that for the money it sounded fine. I am sure that the customers got what they paid for and are very satisfied. I have not knocked him or his speakers. I just can't find much on them. My remarks that you may have taken negatively were regarding the use of first order crossovers.

Bigger drivers do not necessarily mean more bass. Because of the transmission line loading of the pair of M-130's in the A/V-3 design they will play as low and have just as much bass as the larger M-165 woofers in a ported design. And the M-130's are a little lighter and faster.

So, what you are saying is that in a equivalent enclosure the M165 will not play lower or have more bass, if that's so, why do you offer them ?

Guy, it is all about the application. Note that the A/V-3 uses a transmission line. It effectively increases the output in the tuning range (40Hz).

What's the best application for the M165 ?

It works great in a sealed or ported design. I can even put them in a large transmission line and get them to hit a -3db of 30Hz or less, but the box size would exceed five cubic feet. So it wouldn't be practical.

I had the Decware for 5 years now and sure I had one problem, the output transformer went on the fritz, I got it rewinded here for 10 USD and now it works fine and not hum, even if I put my ear against the Omega 7F - 93db driver.

If you have had it that long and had just one problem that was repaired then that's great. You apparently have fixed a known problem with them.

if a customer like me keep modifying your original design, but still say that he's very satisfied with the sound (Like my highly modified N3) then why not do it his way. Did I ever complain to you that I was not satisfied with the sound of my modified speakers that were not according to your original design? I think not !

Guy, you can do whatever you want. And you can change the design of my kits if you want. But I'd also like to see you get the most from my designs. I want you to have the best sound possible. I work long and hard to tweak each design. I'd love for you to experience.

If you are on a tight budget then look at the X-Series kits. You are trying to help me by making me change my original idea and what I had in mind, I know, it's for my own good. After spending some time on your website, I think the following is within my budget and close to the specifications I am looking for. The X-CS Classic at 79 USD/each. Don't need the X-MTM option, I have those items here.

The X-CS is an MTM design.

There is a standard version. The X-LS Classic kit is just $109 for the pair.

Of course I will go with the floor stander cabinet. Now, I really want 4 Ohms, can you substitute the M130-16 for M130 I would believe that the already fully assembled xover would have to be modified, is that possible by you or me?

Yes, changing out the drivers would require the crossover be redesigned.

I do offer a 4 ohm kit just for guys that want a 4 ohm speaker. Here it is: http://gr-research.com/av-2.aspx

By the way, nothing above is said aggressively, I am just trying to be direct without being impolite. You are entitle to your opinion based on your long time experience. Take everything I wrote with a grain of salt. O.K. ?

Yes I know, and because you are a nice guy I am really hanging in there and trying to help you.

Imagine if I were buying a camera and I asked you about a really cheap brand. And you tell me that it doesn't take great pictures and that you have one that will take a much clearer higher resolution picture. And I say, but many people buy this cheap camera and are really happy with it. Are they ignorant about good pictures? And how do you know yours takes a clearer picture? What if I am just as happy with less? Are you the picture taking God?

And you know, if I were taking pictures in low light and you told me that I could use the flash that comes with your camera and it would take better pictures then I wouldn't act resentful of you telling me that. Even if I were happy with the pictures I'd still appreciate you offering something to me that would make it even better.

[jazyes]

I was very lucky to find a like new AV-123 X-CS for the cost of shipping! Thank You to A/C member KevinK. I purchased the Encore upgrade (Sonicaps, Peerless tweeter
and tube connectors) from Danny. I gutted the inside and lined the walls with industrial floor tiles and fiberglass insulation. The stock version is very good, but the upgrade
is a giant leap at a great value and a fine compliment to my X-LS Encores. As always, Danny's help and advice were invaluable.

Danny, your patience and diplomacy are also enviable -John

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi Georgopoulos.
That's your opinion, thank God, not mine.
 

Guy 13

Hi Guy13, dont take it personal, i only comment on what i think is simple and good
do you know alot of speakers dont even have a first order crossover filter for the woofer,
just a cap only!!!for tweeter!!!

How's the weather on planet vietnam?hot...

cheers

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy,
I have to ask why do you even bother with Danny's speakers?  Why bother with international shipping?  Why make a fuss on the forum?  Just do what you want and order the parts you want and build what you want to build. 

I just hope you recognize that in a way you're disrespecting Danny and his expertise.  That is where the contention lies.   Nobody is saying you CAN'T do it.  But Danny and the others are saying it probably won't sound good based on their experience. 

I don't consider Danny a god.  Nobody is perfect.  But I respect his expertise based on the evidence provided by the years of successful speakers he's produced and satisfied customers.  His speakers sound fantastic.  They are ridiculously good for the money. 

Perhaps this is all a big misunderstanding due to differences in culture.  Maybe where you're from people don't respect experts and like to do things their way. 

Good luck with your speakers.

Hi corndog71.
Quote: why do you even bother with Danny's speakers?
Unquote.
Because I bought from Danny a few kits and I have to admit that they are good,
not necessarily 100% to what I like, but good and very good for the price.
My only complaint, if it can be called a complaint, is the low efficiency.
Around only 90dB I would prefer 95dB that's because of mu 2wpc Decware
and no, I will not upgrade to a more powerful amplifier, because I can't afford it.
International shipping you say?
I get all my stuff bought from USA suppliers ship to my wife's nephew in Seattle
and he re-ship them to me via relatives free of charge and no Vietnamese custom duty tax.
Obviously, you have not been following with interest my posts, otherwise,
you would know that as I wrote that many times on my posts.
O.K. I understand your point, not all my post have great interest to some of the AC members.
Make a fuss ??? What fuss. You call that a fuss, because that's what you see, but for me, it's laying down my opinion with my (Limited) English vocabulary and my style.
Don't like it? Don't read it and don't comment it !
Quote:
Just do what you want and order the parts you want and build what you want to build. 
Unquote:
Well that's what I did in the past and that's why I might do this time.
But in order to do that, I need Danny's opinion, even if I don't follow 100% his directions.
He's not loosing his time, because I do order from him and I modify to my taste and you know what?
I love the results...
I do not and I repeat, I do not disrespect Danny.
I admire his success in life, his success in business and his expertise.
My post don't look like that, well that's your problem.
One thing I must say about Danny is that he's got lots of patience with a pain in the neck like me.
That's a quality I admire from him.
Thanks Danny for supporting me.
I can't say the same with some AC members.
You say: Nobody said I can't do it, in those words, but it sure look like that to me.
I know that Danny's proven designs will be better sounding than my modified contraption,
but that's a risk I am ready to take.
I've been told many times by AC members, that this hobby is about experimenting, well, you know what?
That's what I do and then, I ask you : What your fuss about my experimentation.
You can't realize that you are loosing your time and you are being more or less disrespectful to me, minds you I don't care about that, because I understand you want to help and I thanks you for that.
Quote: 
Perhaps this is all a big misunderstanding due to differences in culture. 
Maybe where you're from people don't respect experts and like to do things their way.
Unquote:
My culture is very similar to yours since I am a Canadian, you know Canada that big country just about the USA.
Where I come from we do respect experts.
I had receive great education from my parents.
I don't like to read what you wrote, it not nice and it's just to make you point.
You know, people can have different points of views, you know that, right ?
Keep reading my posts, you might be surprised with the final ending.
Thanks for taking your precious time to express you opinion, it's appreciated, even if I don't like the words you use.

Guy 13
 

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy13, dont take it personal, i only comment on what i think is simple and good
do you know alot of speakers dont even have a first order crossover filter for the woofer,
just a cap only!!!for tweeter!!!

How's the weather on planet vietnam?hot...

cheers

Hi Georgopoulos.
I rarely take it personal, even if it looks otherwise.
The Parker Audio only have a good single capacitor as a crossover for their tweeter
and the same from many other manufacturers.
So, what's wrong with that?
What's the big fuss about that.
I have in my listening room extended range driver, therefore, no crossover,
I have Sony 2 ways one capacitor bookshelves speakers,
I have Danny's V1 with quite elaborate crossover, that being said,
I know about all those ways of doing.
Each one have their strength and weakness and yes, the V1 as his own weakness and NO,
I will not tell you what ii is to avoid a third world war of words...
Now, what the weather on planet Vietnam.
(If you mention Vietnam as Planet Vietnam, that means you have been following my posts
 and I have to thank you for that.)
Now we have rain every second day and the thermometer is around 37C/88F.
After almost 20 years here, I am almost use to it.

Guy 13

 

[Guy 13]

I was very lucky to find a like new AV-123 X-CS for the cost of shipping! Thank You to A/C member KevinK. I purchased the Encore upgrade (Sonicaps, Peerless tweeter
and tube connectors) from Danny. I gutted the inside and lined the walls with industrial floor tiles and fiberglass insulation. The stock version is very good, but the upgrade
is a giant leap at a great value and a fine compliment to my X-LS Encores. As always, Danny's help and advice were invaluable.

Danny, your patience and diplomacy are also enviable -John

Hi jazyes.
I have to agree 100% with you on Danny's incredible patience and diplomacy,
I must say a quality that some AC members don't have.
Thanks.

Guy 13