Thiel 22

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XMAN

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Thiel 22
« on: 13 Aug 2016, 02:14 pm »
I have a pair of Thiel 22 i bought back in the early 90's and thought i would freshen them up with a new or rebuild tweeter and midrange.  I open it to the floor for any ideas or advice.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #1 on: 13 Aug 2016, 02:27 pm »
I have a pair of Thiel 22 i bought back in the early 90's and thought i would freshen them up with a new or rebuild tweeter and midrange.  I open it to the floor for any ideas or advice.
These drivers are damaged or bad sound?
If not dont fix what is not broken, wait they break.

opnly bafld

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #2 on: 13 Aug 2016, 02:52 pm »
A friend had his crossovers redone and they went from unlistenable to pretty good to my ears.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #3 on: 13 Aug 2016, 03:04 pm »
These drivers are damaged or bad sound?
If not dont fix what is not broken, wait they break.

The drivers are not damaged but i thought it might improve the sound if i did a rebuild they are a bit on the bright side.

Doublej

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #4 on: 13 Aug 2016, 03:43 pm »
I would try them with different components. Thiels can sound VERY different based on the electronics used. If you don't like the sound then I would just sell them and buy something more to your liking.

In my audio youth I listened to a pair of Thiel 1.x with Aragon/Clase level components (I forget the exact electronics) and thought they were blase. When I told the salesman he switched to a Forte amp/preamp combination. I forget if he also changed the CD player.

Un f'ing believable. If I wasn't in the room I would have sworn he changed speakers. Night and day. At 3?x the price for electronics of course but the point being IMHO they are really sensitive to what feeds them.

Thiel crossovers are not simple beasts to be able to simply pop in different drivers. If there are crossover components that have reached end of life then rebuilding would improve the sound. Otherwise I wouldn't mess with crossovers but that's just me.

It's odd that there is no one that specializes in Thiel aftermarket work (that I know of) as there is with so many other brands of audio significance. Nor is their any owner's forum that I know of.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #5 on: 13 Aug 2016, 03:48 pm »
I would try them with different components. Thiels can sound VERY different based on the electronics used. If you don't like the sound then I would just sell them and buy something more to your liking.

In my audio youth I listened to a pair of Thiel 1.x with Aragon/Clase level components (I forget the exact electronics) and thought they were blase. When I told the salesman he switched to a Forte amp/preamp combination. I forget if he also changed the CD player.

Un f'ing believable. If I wasn't in the room I would have sworn he changed speakers. Night and day. At 3?x the price for electronics of course but the point being IMHO they are really sensitive to what feeds them.

Thiel crossovers are not simple beasts to be able to simply pop in different drivers. If there are crossover components that have reached end of life then rebuilding would improve the sound. Otherwise I wouldn't mess with crossovers but that's just me.

It's odd that there is no one that specializes in Thiel aftermarket work (that I know of) as there is with so many other brands of audio significance. Nor is their any owner's forum that I know of.
I have been in contact with Thiel directly and they can rebuild the tweeters i just wonder if it is money well spent.

opnly bafld

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #6 on: 13 Aug 2016, 03:59 pm »
they are a bit on the bright side.

Crossover work mentioned above fixed that.

Doublej

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #7 on: 13 Aug 2016, 04:15 pm »
I have been in contact with Thiel directly and they can rebuild the tweeters i just wonder if it is money well spent.

Did they say why one would consider rebuilding the tweeters, i.e. what is the benefit of doing so, and how much it will cost?

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #8 on: 13 Aug 2016, 05:30 pm »
Did they say why one would consider rebuilding the tweeters, i.e. what is the benefit of doing so, and how much it will cost?

I inquired they said it would lead to better sound $250 US each

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #9 on: 13 Aug 2016, 05:30 pm »
Crossover work mentioned above fixed that.

Is that a do it yourself cap upgrade or a replacement? 

opnly bafld

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #10 on: 13 Aug 2016, 06:48 pm »
DIY cap upgrade; some of the old caps were way off in value and today's caps are generally thought to sound better than the ones Thiel used back then.

timind

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #11 on: 13 Aug 2016, 07:01 pm »
I inquired they said it would lead to better sound $250 US each
Pricey considering the speakers are worth $500 if ur lucky.
If there's nothing faulty with the tweeters, I'd look at reworking the crossover as a means to lessen their brightness. Also, if they rebuild the tweeters, aren't they going to bring them to spec? That would do nothing to reduce brightness.

Donald

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #12 on: 13 Aug 2016, 07:49 pm »
Maybe try an inexpensive tube buffer as an alternative. Just a thought.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #13 on: 13 Aug 2016, 07:50 pm »
Pricey considering the speakers are worth $500 if ur lucky.
If there's nothing faulty with the tweeters, I'd look at reworking the crossover as a means to lessen their brightness. Also, if they rebuild the tweeters, aren't they going to bring them to spec? That would do nothing to reduce brightness.
I guess that's part of my question can tweeters get brighter as they age?  Don't get me wrong the speakers sound good just thinking maybe they can be improved.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #14 on: 13 Aug 2016, 07:52 pm »
Maybe try an inexpensive tube buffer as an alternative. Just a thought.
I thought of this but auditioning would be required a little difficult where i live.  I thought a tube preamp might be a good idea.

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #15 on: 13 Aug 2016, 07:53 pm »
DIY cap upgrade; some of the old caps were way off in value and today's caps are generally thought to sound better than the ones Thiel used back then.
\

Where is the best place to buy hi grade caps?

timind

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #16 on: 13 Aug 2016, 09:14 pm »
Check Sonic Craft. They have a circle here. Jeff offers sound advice there.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #17 on: 13 Aug 2016, 09:23 pm »
Check Sonic Craft. They have a circle here. Jeff offers sound advice there.
+1 Jeff is a gentleman and expert in xovers and run the best custumer service shop in audio, since I started to buy audio parts(1970s).

XMAN

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Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #18 on: 14 Aug 2016, 12:34 am »
Thanks all I see a project coming on

*Scotty*

Re: Thiel 22
« Reply #19 on: 14 Aug 2016, 02:48 am »
If the speaker under discussion is the Thiel CS2.2 then the frequency response graph from the Sterophile review done in 1993 may partially explain where the brightness is coming from.

This graph shows the averaged frequency response in John Atkinson's listening room at the listening position.
John mentions that there is "prominence" in the mid-range's passband which may make the speaker fussy if partnered with amplifiers which themselves are bright sounding. I would say that the 3dB "hump" centered at about 1.8kHz is the heart of brightness you hear. The quasi-anechoic response curve clearly shows this 3dB hump at 1.8kHz as well as the somewhat ragged response contributed by the tweeter in the upper octaves, which may or may not be part of the problem. See image below.

 If the speaker is bright sounding and I were using these speakers in a system with a computer to play back music files,
I would use jRiver's parametric equalizer capability to flatten out that mid-range hump and fix the speakers response aberrations.
 A rebuild of the crossover with new caps won't do anything to the hump in the mid-range and it also won't alter the tweeter's inherent response curve.
Here is a cut-away image of the Thiel CS2.2 showing some of the crossovers complexity.

Scotty