AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: charmerci on 14 May 2018, 07:38 pm
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As a result of my speaker wire winding and separation thread - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156431.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156431.0)
I tried out some solid core copper wire - untwisted - 12 feet. (Two 16g and one 14g. per side. Yeah, long story.) The highs are more forward (as it sounds coming out of my speakers), there's more bass and more depth to the soundstage. I'm enjoying listening to my system even more.
It's cheap to test it out in your system, 20 cents/foot for 12g at my local hardware store.
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Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.
dave
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Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire.
You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? :lol:
I'll see. Our local hardware store's choice is pretty limited.
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Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.
dave
Without a doubt with many loudspeakers, this cable will sound different than reasonable speaker cables.
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You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? :lol:
I am Canadian.
I have tried many kinds of cables in the last 40 years or so. With the speakers common around here — mostly single driver FRs — we found that a single run of thin solid cable sounded better than other stuff we tried. I have totes with much fatter cable going unused.
All i can say is try it, wire is very system dependent.
dave
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Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.
dave
?????? depending on speaker and distance that makes zero sense
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It certainly goes against common knowledge, but if it works (which it does)…
Lengths sre sbout 2m.
dave
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?????? depending on speaker and distance that makes zero sense
Well it sure won't be accurate!
But in some cases it might add some interesting euphonic colorations. (if that's what you are looking for)
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It certainly goes against common knowledge, but if it works (which it does)…
Lengths sre sbout 2m.
dave
no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !
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You guya ew stuck in a rut. As long as the current demands do not exceed the current capaility of the wire you are fine. No violations of physics and it sounds better becaus eit is more accurate.
I say just try it — in your system it will work or it won't. A leftover length of CAT5/6/7 is likely free from the local compuyer shop (i fon’t mean best buy).
dave
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The more you increase resistance, the less reactive the speaker appears to the amplifier. You are effectively raising the QES (making the speaker less damped electrically). This has some advantages with the types of speakers Dave (P10) is all about. But you could also just put a fatty resistor in the speaker to do the same thing.
When you have untwisted wire you may get more RF into the feedback so it may create a more "airy" sound.
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you could also just put a fatty resistor in the speaker to do the same thing.
Not quite. There are other benefits as well.
The added R is signicantly less than that 1st choke in the XO,
dave
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You guya ew stuck in a rut. As long as the current demands do not exceed the current capaility of the wire you are fine. No violations of physics and it sounds better becaus eit is more accurate.
I say just try it — in your system it will work or it won't. A leftover length of CAT5/6/7 is likely free from the local compuyer shop (i fon’t mean best buy).
dave
The problem isn't whether the wire will flow the current. The problem is whether it'll go so hot it breaks into two with an explosion. You could use 36awg wire if you could stop it from over heating.
I prefer higher awg, twisted, and leave the other stuff to the design of the speaker itself and/or amp combo type. When the speaker wire is benign you don't have an extra factor, like you do when you start swapping speakers and amps, with more resistive wire.
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The 24g i’m using never even gets warm.
One could go thinner, but it is a PITA, breaking often.
dave
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Yep, I did cat 5.x 15 years ago. If you don't have money, it's pretty good. Then I tried extension cord. Better... no doubt better, even on efficient speakers. Give both a go, we all hear differently and we all don't play girl/guitar music.
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Not quite. There are other benefits as well.
The added R is signicantly less than that 1st choke in the XO,
dave
How many inductors do you have with your single fullrange drivers?
The impedance of the inductors might be higher, but it is reactive nearly in whole. If you use 8ft 24awg cables you're adding 0.41ohms. That's like adding two more inductors to the typical 2 way speaker, in DCR terms. For bass drivers in a 3 way it would be like adding one more inductor. But without the inductance.
Again, you can use a resistor to do at least the QES shift. It works pretty well but it's complicated for 2 ways because it changes the FR too much. With fullrangers it may bring back the bass like using a feedbackless amp can.
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You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? :lol:
I'll see. Our local hardware store's choice is pretty limited.
Dave amp looks to be a tube amp, among small tube amps users that use FR driver is common use a thin solid core speaker cable to increase the impedance the OPT see, this is the reason a thin solid wire offer better SQ than a regular speaker cable.
Worth mention Common Sense drivers connectors accept max 2mm cable.
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How many inductors do you have with your single fullrange drivers?
None in any of the FRs, but some seriously big ones in the 2 WAW that we have done passive XOs.
No inductors at all gives some latitude to how resistive the wire is. The 1st online calculator i found suggested my wire has 0.18Ω R.
I am currently using a PP EL84 triode amp, but it was just put in so we could demo the Pass ACA which have been in system for probably 10 months.
A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).
dave
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First all of this is dependent on:
a] the length of the speaker cable.
b] the impedance curve of the loudspeaker.
So:
1] it's not about the damping factor (the difference is trivial)
2] it's not about the current carrying capacity of 24AWG. It can carry 25 Amps of music for a little while (that's 5000 Watts)
It's about putting a resistor is series with a loudspeaker, that has an impedance that varies with frequency.
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..........
A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).
dave
I can understand it Dave, and agree, as there appears to be an optimal damping factor for each amp/speaker combo. Not only does optimal damping/fr occur in the woofer, but also in every driver of a speaker, if you have more than one driver (woofer, mid, tweeter etc.)
--------------- General audience.
If one does a thevenin equivalent circuit, the damping factor for most speakers is limited mainly by the DC resistance of the voice coil, inductor in the crossover, speaker wires, output Z of the amplifier etc.
If the driver's voice coil has a typical impedance of 4 ohms and DC resistance of 3 ohms, and all else is zero ohms, the maximum damping factor is simply 1.333333. (The standard, easy way is to use speaker impedance (Z) divided by the amplifier output Z, assuming the wire has zero impedance. Then we come up with huge numbers for the damping factor.)
We all know that altering the amp's output impedance (Z) (changing amplifiers) makes a bass difference due to a very small difference in the real damping factor. We discuss the effects all the time. Speaker wire also alters the damping factor to some extent, just as the output Z of the amplifier does. In fact, the wire resistance can be much larger than the output Z of some amplifiers, so the effect is just as perceivable. I found for my personal system (~ 0,4 ohm output impedance (Z)) that 10 parallel 18 gauge wires is optimum, while 12 or 8 degraded the naturalness/realism.
One caveat. The speaker wire has both XL + Rdc resistance, so a little non-linearity with frequency. However, if XL of the wire is near zero, as in Charmerci's example, then Rdc is the only factor to consider. Charmerci found it helped his system. Dave's, on the other hand, has much more resistance vs XL but it helped his system's reproduction in his opinion. So it is trial and error.
By the way, changing the amplifier also changes the Rdc (reactance). However, it is difficult to find a proper ohmage, non inductive resistor to fit the exact bill in one's system.
Cheers and continued success Charmerci and Dave.
steve
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First hand reports as these from Charmerci and Dave are very important to clear doubts from music lovers, I will follow this thread.
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no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !
Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
I hope you will reconsider your comments.
steve
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So I bought some door bell solid copper wire - I think they are 24g. I coupled the 14g with two 24g (four sets total, +/- twice to each speaker) and as someone said, there was a definite rise in high frequencies (possibly less bass) with my New Philharmonitors, it was not a pleasant result. Added the two 16g apexjr wires to each connection and that was much better.
Rosa Passos' Amorosa album sounded amazing! Better than ever before. But interestingly other albums sounded less better than with my previous (threaded) speaker wire.
So many possibilities!!! Do I have to change speaker wire for every album??? :scratch:
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Maybe you would try UPOCC Neotech awg 12 or 14 (there is PVC or Teflon) from Jeff-Sonic Craft or OCCMetal:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=92305
http://www.occmetal.com/
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no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !
Whenever someones goes on about 'the rules of physics' as a rebuttal all it tells me is they have no actual knowledge of physics.
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We can go beyond the (known) laws of physics, but can never violate them.
Used CAT5 years ago (lacked bass which isn't an issue with Planet 10's small FR drivers), switched to cryo'd single strand CAT5 which made an improvement. Have moved on since.
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None in any of the FRs, but some seriously big ones in the 2 WAW that we have done passive XOs.
No inductors at all gives some latitude to how resistive the wire is. The 1st online calculator i found suggested my wire has 0.18Ω R.
I am currently using a PP EL84 triode amp, but it was just put in so we could demo the Pass ACA which have been in system for probably 10 months.
A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).
dave
Regarding speaker wire resistance and the effect on damping factor (with some math):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157603.0
Also, regarding "better speaker wire", I'd like to see MEASUREMENTS (THD+N, SNR, etc.) showing the improvement (or not) of various wire. I've done experiments showing a small distortion difference in the midrange with certain (can't say, or I'll be accused of advertising) speaker cables and certain amplifiers, using a resistive load at the end of the speaker wire.
For audio frequencies and beyond, skin effect is arguably negligible. Here's a handy calculator:
http://chemandy.com/calculators/skin-effect-calculator.htm
I could go on and on, but any decent speaker wire at audio frequencies looks like a simple resistance. You do need enough "girth" to keep from killing damping factor, assuming your amps have respectably low output impedance across the audio band (hint: most don't). Science is the key to understanding wire. Thanks.
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Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?
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Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
I hope you will reconsider your comments.
steve
OK, gotcha , therefore....overall 'system dependent' and for that your saying Ohm's Law has no bearing ?
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Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?
How about a link?
Math and science are always welcome to me (:
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OK, gotcha , therefore....overall 'system dependent' and for that your saying Ohm's Law has no bearing ?
I am saying a couple of things. First I apologize if I came off strong Dave (twitch54). I have just heard "breaking Physics" too many times on
other forums.
1. The first point is that I am saying that whether the dc resistance is in the wire or amplifier output makes no difference. The speaker sees it.
2. With that said, I am able to state that an amplifier can have output Z/dc resistance, and still have the sound un-altered, a perfect amplifier via special listening tests, not measurements.
3. Speakers are problematic due to inaccurate sources, preamplifiers, and amplifiers. If the source, pre, and amp were perfect, the speaker could be a lot more accurate. As such, Dave's system might actually be more accurate with the small wire. I know my system sounded better with ten 18 gauge solid wires in parallel than with 12, or 8 of the wires, or one large 9 gauge wire. It could be either way, and there may be a critical damping factor that is most linear, not just the highest damping factor.
I hope this helps twitch.
I could go on and on, but any decent speaker wire at audio frequencies looks like a simple resistance. You do need enough "girth" to keep from killing damping factor, assuming your amps have respectably low output impedance across the audio band (hint: most don't). Science is the key to understanding wire.
Not exactly. It may be that the optimum damping factor is not the highest. We also wish to consider the highs and low inductance.
Most descent speaker wire (let's call it X) has inductance at audio frequencies. That is why I suggested using multiple wires in parallel. Twisted speaker wires actually has more inductance than ~3 parallel wires, depending upon X wire size which determines the spacing from wire center to center. Besides that, if the + and - speakers wires (for clarity) are separated, the capacitance is also negligible for parallel wires.
From a previous post I created on another forum. Notice I am only using 5 wires in parallel, inductive reactance is at 20khz.
Single Single Single 5 parallel
18 ga. 13 ga. 11 ga. 18 ga. parallel wires
.0325 .0104 .0066 .0065 DC resistance
2410 nh 2232 nh 2162 nh 482 nh Inductance
.30 ohms .28 ohms .27 ohms .06 ohms Inductive reactance 20khz
I kept the capacitance to minimal, near zero which is almost always good (never say always). So while the 5 parallel 18 gauge wires equate to an 11 gauge wire in DC resistance, the inductive reactance is only 1/4.5th that of the 11 gauge wire.
Notice while the single wires vary in gauge, the straight wire inductance is fairly close. Paralleling drastically reduces the inductance while the DC resistance is close to the 11 gauge wire.
cheers
steve
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Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
I hope you will reconsider your comments.
steve
Note that an amplifier's output impedance is NOT the same animal as speaker wire impedance. NOT interchangeable!
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Not exactly. It may be that the optimum damping factor is not the highest. We also wish to consider the highs and low inductance.
Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.
Regarding inductance, how much is acceptable to you as far as speaker wire goes, and how do you calculate that? Thanks.
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Note that an amplifier's output impedance is NOT the same animal as speaker wire impedance. NOT interchangeable!
It actually is in context I used it. Dc resistance has flat response over the audio band, basically no phase shift over the audio band. Most amplifiers have output impedance that has flat response over the audio band, and does not phase shift over the audio band.
True, there are some amps that vary, are wild, but that is up to them.
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Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.
Which may be better if the total Qts of the woofer/box, the system is low, say 0,6, 0,5 or 0,3 etc. By raising the number, to say 0,7, we still have nice control of the woofer, and we did at least two things.
1. We extended the low frequency response. I like having a Qts of woofer/box, say, 0,707 or so, and Harbeth has even higher. I don't necessarily care for the Harbeth as the ultimate, but they are excellent.
2. The lower numbers, 0,6, 0,5, 0,3 will alter the relationship between the fundamental and its harmonics, with the harmonics dominating more, deteriorating the sound. The instrument will sound too thin, not natural. (I am leaving out the room's acoustics.) I prefer to have proper harmonic relationships to the fundamental for natural sound. Some may prefer different, that is their choice.
Regarding inductance, how much is acceptable to you as far as speaker wire goes, and how do you calculate that? Thanks.
I tried different numbers of 18 gauge solid wires in parallel until I found the proper number for optimum sound from my system. I used door bell wire, 2 conductors per, so I paralleled 5 jackets worth for 10 wires. 8 or 12 did not sound right in my system.
The inductance may not be precisely 1/10th that of just one wire due to proximity, haven't actually measured it. Different drivers, with different impedance (Z) curves may require a different number of wires in parallel. 10 in parallel is just slightly smaller than an 8 gauge wire, about 8.1 gauge. Ten provided the best overall response, including tight bass. I might experiment with 9 or 11 in parallel and see.
Here is a link to examining the inductance of a straight wire. You can take it from there.
http://chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-inductance-calculator.htm
cheers
steve
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Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.
That depends a bit on what you define as control. In terms of linearity, yes (not always with subs), in terms of SPL no. Over dampening can lead to almost no SPL on some speaker types in the bass, that otherwise can put out a lot. Underdamped can reduce SPL in BR boxes.
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Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.
Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.
Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.
dave
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Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.
Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.
dave
Dave, thank you for your experiments and information.
cheers
steve
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Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?
Ooops. I don't often post over there so I didn't think about it. If you guys want....
Probably no more changes in my system until Monday or Tuesday.
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I am saying a couple of things. First I apologize if I came off strong Dave (twitch54). I have just heard "breaking Physics" too many times on
other forums.
LOL Steve, no apologies needed, I am not one of those 'thin skinned' forum types. Many, if not most here are more techno-savvy than myself. I just couldn't buy into a generalized statement of a 24ga piece of wire improving ones speaker connection to amplifier without supporting info. Regardless, my Pass Labs X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's will never be subject to such.
keep the dialogue going, I'm enjoying the read.
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LOL Steve, no apologies needed, I am not one of those 'thin skinned' forum types. Many, if not most here are more techno-savvy than myself. I just couldn't by into a generalized statement of a 24ga piece of wire improving ones speaker connection to amplifier without supporting info. Regardless, my Pass Labs X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's will never be subject to such.
keep the dialogue going, I'm enjoying the read.
Thank you twitch, much appreciated. Frankly, I have never heard of anyone using 24 gauge speaker wire before now. But Dave likes to experiment and has a pretty good head on his shoulders. I ought to try one 18 gauge wire sometime and see what happens. Never hurts and one learns, even if not successful in my system.
One thing I learned is that with my stereo, I have to wait nearly 3 hours to fully warm up, literally, before the sound settles. Starts a bit full but as it warms up, the sound thins out. I would like to keep my test amp cooler, need to place the power transformers outside the chassis. Bad layout on my part but been too lazy and taking care of mom to make the change.
Cheers and all the best twitch.
steve
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You turn your hifi off?
dave
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You turn your hifi off?
dave
Yep. I just can't see spending $320.00 for output tubes every year or two. Driver and preamp tubes add another $100.00. Add electric bill for AC etc in the summer and ouch.
cheers
steve
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Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.
Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.
dave
It's a simple fact. A science and math thing, not an opinion. It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog. Doesn't matter if it's raining, of if the dog is hungry, or when the dog's next vet appointment is, or the color of the dog. Your statement about trans-impedance experiments doesn't have enough information to be conclusive, even if you feel the experiments were in your opinion. No information on parameters, test set up, specs of the amp, what was measured (if anything), or even the types of speakers used. It's like saying you drove a car around town and didn't need to step on the gas that much, so more horsepower is never necessary.... Hey, I'm "mister analogy" tonight. Higher damping factor = better, always (:
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To me it is significant that both of the people who, to my knowledge, have spent the most time actually listening to the effects of different materials and configurations used in conductors and elsewhere in the system (Denis Moorecroft of DNM and Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade) have settled on small diameter, single conductor cables as optimal.
http://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerwires.php
http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html
Resistive power loss is compensated by a miniscule adjustment of the gain control, is it not?
The reduced damping factor effects caused by higher cable resistance may well be less audible than smeared arrival times and distortion caused by diodic effects and other effects resulting from multistrand cables. Also the added resistance would be trivial when compared to the output impedance of the typical tube amp, wouldn't it?
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Yep. I just can't see spending $320.00 for output tubes every year or two. Driver and preamp tubes add another $100.00. Add electric bill for AC etc in the summer and ouch.
cheers
steve
Steve, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind leaving tube gear 'always on' , especially power amps.
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Steve, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind leaving tube gear 'always on' , especially power amps.
Many tube amps manufacturers say in the owner manual to dont let the amp on alone, they know that the current tubes has low reliability.
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Well, I'm not . . .
...convinced about the benefits of solid core wire. In fact, just the opposite. I used s/c wire in my GR Research LS-9s to begin with but was put off by a "whang" sort of effect in the midrange and treble. I replaced it with (damned) expensive) Marigo wire (Litz configuration) and experienced immediate relief. Sounds wonderful now.
I know what you're thinking: "I thought it was going to sound better; therefore it did." But my hard-headed audio buddies think so too.
S/C wire is fine for subs, but not (in my system/experience) mids and tweets.
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I think it is significant that you are talking about litz wire which neatly side steps a couple of the supposed problems with mutistrand associated with the fact there are multiple contact points between the conductors. It seems the Litz configuration provides the main benefit of single strand small diameter conductors while adding better conductivity to the mix, at the expense, only, of complexity.
My best microphone cables and all my analog interconnects in my studio are of Litz construction, partially (there are large gauge wires intended to pass bass frequencies). It took me a full 1/2 hour to strip and prepare for silver soldering each end. In other words, terminating with XLRs or 1/4" balanced connectors took 2 hours for a stereo pair.
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To me it is significant that both of the people who, to my knowledge, have spent the most time actually listening to the effects of different materials and configurations used in conductors and elsewhere in the system (Denis Moorecroft of DNM and Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade) have settled on small diameter, single conductor cables as optimal.
http://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerwires.php
http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html
Resistive power loss is compensated by a miniscule adjustment of the gain control, is it not?
The reduced damping factor effects caused by higher cable resistance may well be less audible than smeared arrival times and distortion caused by diodic effects and other effects resulting from multistrand cables. Also the added resistance would be trivial when compared to the output impedance of the typical tube amp, wouldn't it?
Russell, totally agree, materials make a difference. Correct me if I am wrong, you were discussing inside the chassis? If so, I think the OP was discussing outside the chassis. Just a mention in case you missed it (tucked in one of the previous posts), one of the benefits of multiple solid wires is improved high frequency response, differing relationship between fundamental and harmonics etc (See Olson's work). As such FR changes the spacial aspects etc. as well. Been working with such for a long time. Power loss is minimal, so not an issue, as you have indicated.
Inside my preamplifier/amp, phono stage, I use Jenalabs 6n, I believe, stranded copper wire and testing demonstrated accuracy/naturalness.
Cheers and all the best Russell.
steve
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Well, I'm not . . .
...convinced about the benefits of solid core wire. In fact, just the opposite. I used s/c wire in my GR Research LS-9s to begin with but was put off by a "whang" sort of effect in the midrange and treble. I replaced it with (damned) expensive) Marigo wire (Litz configuration) and experienced immediate relief. Sounds wonderful now.
I know what you're thinking: "I thought it was going to sound better; therefore it did." But my hard-headed audio buddies think so too.
S/C wire is fine for subs, but not (in my system/experience) mids and tweets.
It appears that your findings agree with ours in that each system, venue etc is unique. Was that just one wire, or multiple that the OP, me, and others tested in our systems.
cheers
steve
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It appears that your findings agree with ours in that each system, venue etc is unique. Was that just one wire, or multiple that the OP, me, and others tested in our systems.
cheers
steve
Seriously, throwback's speakers are LS9's!!! :o Mine's just a two driver two way. Comparing apples and oranges perhaps?
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It's a simple fact. A science and math thing, not an opinion. It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog.
While my personal experiment results are anecdotal, all of the background information i have posted has been known for sometime (and refutes your claim of simple fact,) one only has to look far enuff back. When almost the whole industry made a right hand turn to transistors, much of this info became obscure so one had to consiously dig for it. It is only in recent times that the best transistor amps & the best tube amps are getting closer together.
Class D amps have come a long, long way since i heard the then new Infinity. Hard to beat the price/power that is now extant. Dealing with artifacts due to the switching frequency of a Class D amp have been hard to overcome. I have yet to hear all the contenders for best Class D amp so i cannot speak to how far they have come. But that is a topic different from th epremise of this thread.
While much of the commercially available kit had painted itself into a corner, the diy world is not nearly so restricted.
dave
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Cripes. I have 4 22g and 2 14 g wires hooked up to the left speaker and five 14 g wires hooked up to the other and there are differences between those two. The left has less bass, a more prominent/forward mid-range but less smooth high frequencies. The possibilities are endless!!!
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It sounds bizarre to me but what I seem to be hearing is that small gauge wire seems to be better at transferring high frequencies and lower gauge wire is better at transferring low frequencies? :scratch:
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Higher damping factor = better, always (:
Would that it were so simple....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rDw2YBUz6A
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Thorsten Loesch , formally at TNT Audio mag, am ultimate tweekster and now the designer of AMR and IFI electronics says this about speaker wires.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
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Thorsten Loesch , formally at TNT Audio mag, am ultimate tweekster and now the designer of AMR and IFI electronics says this about speaker wires.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
He provides some useful information, but my example of paralleling multiple wires is superior to the bottom of the page; virtually zero capacitance and extremely low inductance.
cheers
steve
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Seriously, throwback's speakers are LS9's!!! :o Mine's just a two driver two way. Comparing apples and oranges perhaps?
Oh, I was not comparing speakers Charmerci. In fact I had no idea of what Throwback was running. I was a bit confused what he was discussing. No comparison meant. I just meant that different systems will require their own unique speaker cables for optimum sound.
cheers
steve
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It's a simple fact. A science and math thing, not an opinion. It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog. Higher damping factor = better, always (:
Ah planet 10 was correct. And we must include all the science, and variables. It is possible to over damp the woofer, generally less than .7 or so. There are two ways to dampen a driver, mechanically (Qms) and electrically (Qes). That is how one arrives at the Qts of a driver and speaker as a whole.
Any time we alter the electrical damping factor, we alter the lower frequency response, and response of all other drivers as well. One of the big problems in designing a speaker is the lack of electronic component accuracy.
What was the output impedance (Z) of the amplifier the designer used to test his speaker? We don't know. You want to use a different damping factor than what the speaker designer used? Optimizing the total speaker Qts will rarely be simply the maximum damping figure possible.
cheers
steve
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Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."
My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"
https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/
With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs
Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk
EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M
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Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."
My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"
https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/
With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs
Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk
EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M
I already performed a simple analysis, and I found that it was simply based on the quality of our hearing across the audio spectrum. Nothing magical. Adjusting for predominately high frequency perception heard one word while those whose low frequencies dominated heard the other word because one name contains more high frequency information while the other does not.
Of course cochlea fatigue becomes a factor, with losing highs easier if one repeatedly does back and forths in one setting. But then that is manipulating our perception.
This test was similar to the dress "test" which involved relative weaknesses in one's individual sight spectrum; this audio test involved weaknesses in the audio spectrum. As such, it has virtually nothing to do with this string.
cheers
steve
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Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."
My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"
https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/
With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs
Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk
EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M
What are you smoking man? These words sound too different to be confused.
I do not believe a normal person confuses this two words, in all videos the difference at these words is very clear audible and my ears are not teenagers.
I though it was a joke...
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...we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni.”...
While it has been shown that altering the frequency balance can sometimes alter the perception of the clip, i believe it is more complicated than that.
What we have is a digital clip where a huge amount of information has been removed (ie it is heavily compressed). The brain fills in the missing bits so that it can be understood. But this sample has so much missing info, that it is easy for the brain to supply differing information to fill in th emissing bits yielding a different sound.
This not only happens with poor digital signals, it is also part of the whole hifi experience. A better system will supply more information, and the brain will not have to work as hard. That the brain does this is one of the reasons why it can be so hard to make valid quality judgements. If one could directly measure how hard the brain was working at filling in the missing information one would have a non-biased metric for system quality (of course there is still a balance and differences in the kind of information being filled in). The less info the brian has to supply, the more relaxed a listening session can be.
dave
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Interesting thread!
IME everyone has some amount of truth in their thoughts, but the subject is too complex and variable to make generalizations. A few of my own thoughts...
- Higher damping factor is only better for some systems, in others that use drivers with stiff suspensions high DF amps actually don't work at all. The original 4.5" Omega hemp driver was an example, along with many older single drivers designed to be used with SET amps. Amps with low output impedance simply don't work and in this case a small gauge speaker cable can indeed make things far better. Steve's explanation here is very good imo. Most modern wideband drivers have moved to very soft suspensions and often class D actually works well.
- Solid core wire doesn't always work, THROWBACK's example of a "whang" effect does happen sometimes. It sounds like a ringing, something is just off. If you want to experience this try 12g solid-core magnet wire, this produces the ringing effect very often.
- Stranded wire often isn't best either, it can add grain to tweets but is often better for bass.
- Litz wire is great IF it works. It doesn't always work. In some systems it will produce some sort of phase-shift effect that makes the highs sound soft and attenuated in a weird way.
- Geometry does matter a lot and in no case have I found separate runs for +/- or side-by-side runs either close together or spaced apart to work best.
Like all cables wire quality is key but there's so many factors, so much not defined, and so much variability in speaker cable applications it's difficult to predict results or say definitively what's best without far too much experimentation. Over time you can develop cables that work well in a broader range of applications but this is mostly driven by trial and error unfortunately.
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While it has been shown that altering the frequency balance can sometimes alter the perception of the clip, i believe it is more complicated than that.
What we have is a digital clip where a huge amount of information has been removed (ie it is heavily compressed). The brain fills in the missing bits so that it can be understood. But this sample has so much missing info, that it is easy for the brain to supply differing information to fill in th emissing bits yielding a different sound.
This not only happens with poor digital signals, it is also part of the whole hifi experience. A better system will supply more information, and the brain will not have to work as hard. That the brain does this is one of the reasons why it can be so hard to make valid quality judgements. If one could directly measure how hard the brain was working at filling in the missing information one would have a non-biased metric for system quality (of course there is still a balance and differences in the kind of information being filled in). The less info the brian has to supply, the more relaxed a listening session can be.
dave
I'd agree, and add that lack of fatigue is also due to components NOT adding artifacts that overly stimulate the nervous system. Also, many things we find beneficial are due to adding missing information, especially extending decay that is truncated by recording and/or playback. This missing information that the brain expects to hear can be added back by vibrational feedback via tubes and components, room acoustics, vibrating speaker cabinets, specially made resonating devices added to the speakers or rooms, etc. as well as a playback system that is actually capable of reproducing fine detail, which is rare. IMO this is what makes the difference between a good system and one that is extraordinary. Even those that eschew the use of anything that is additive have systems that do just that whether they realize it or not, and without it their systems would not be nearly as enjoyable. Don't believe me? Put soft sorbothane under everything and see what results you get...
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I was going to settle on four 14g + two 22g wires per terminal but most of my music are somewhat harsh (rock and pop from the 70's just lots of old music but obviously more than those) and don't sound like Sheffield Labs' Dave Grusin Discovered Again, so I think I'll add another 14g wire then compare it again tomorrow with my braided cables.
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most of my music are somewhat harsh (rock and pop from the 70's just lots of old music but obviously more than those) and don't sound like Sheffield Labs
So avoid use Silver, occ copper would be great.
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I compared the stranded vs. solid core (as above, six wires per terminal) and well, the differences aren't as great as I initially thought. However, the highs are still more forward - but not anymore harsh - and less veiled, there is more bass and on piano (on one recording) seemed more localized than diffuse. Still sounds better.
Whether I'll do any more comparing. Kind of doubt it, for now.
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My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up. Here's the deal.... With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves. So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data. If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
OK, I got that off my chest. (:
Back to work.
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I compared the stranded vs. solid core (as above, six wires per terminal) and well, the differences aren't as great as I initially thought. However, the highs are still more forward - but not anymore harsh - and less veiled, there is more bass and on piano (on one recording) seemed more localized than diffuse. Still sounds better.
Whether I'll do any more comparing. Kind of doubt it, for now.
I think six was too much, do you would test 4 wires?
(1 for bass and 2 or 3 for treble)
What was the diameter from your cable?
(the raw six cores diameter)
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[/quote]My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up. Here's the deal.... With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves. So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data. If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
E pur si muove: Galileo
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My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).
.....................................
OK, I got that off my chest. (:
Back to work.
Yep, it comes down to total end-to-end resistance of the cable in respect to the loudspeaker's impedance curve.
In some special cases (like Apogee) it's the cable's impedance not resistance that matters.
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My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up. Here's the deal.... With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves. So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data. If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
OK, I got that off my chest. (:
Back to work.
If our audio purchase decisions could be made by merely evaluating measurements, then an audiophile's life would be easy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have similar experiences that consistently defy measurements. Cables sound different, period. And those differences in sound aren't always attributed to measurements. Sure, there may be some placebo effect at work in some cases, but not likely in all cases.
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If our audio purchase decisions could be made by merely evaluating measurements, then an audiophile's life would be easy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have similar experiences that consistently defy measurements. Cables sound different, period. And those differences in sound aren't always attributed to measurements. Sure, there may be some placebo effect at work in some cases, but not likely in all cases.
Why do you rule out, ears only listening evaluations?
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My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up. Here's the deal.... With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves. So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data. If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
OK, I got that off my chest. (:
Back to work.
agreed, but your '2 cents' is worth far more !
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I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance ...
Sadly there is very little in audio that has been scientifically proven. To do a proper test is costly and needs to be well enuff documented so that it can be replicated.
I have been paying attention for over 40 years, and the only work that stands out is Kunchar’s work on temporal response showing that human’s have a time response recognition of less then 5µs. There are also experments that are half finished (ie done by one organization/person but never replicated). Those that stand out to me are Toole/Olive work on human preferences to loudspeaker performance (which whle very good, only studied a subset of the possible permutations) and Geddes work that shows that THD is a meaningless specification.
That last points out a significant flaw in many objectivists take on proof. One has to make a subjective assumption that the numbers are meaningful and the little evidence we have is that these assumptions ar efull of holes. On the other hand subjective quantifications on quality are fraught by lack of proper training (ie the 10,000 or so hrs of serious training needed to become an expert) and the many biases & illusions that can happen. ABX is often used to “prove” that DUTs are not different, but that is an invalid application of the test which is designed to only — with a high degree of assurance — show that 2 DUTs are different. A null test is only applicable to the listening session in which the test was performed and has no broader application.
To further complicate things, the transducers we use (i am talking about speakers for us at the listening end) are so crude that one can have 2 equally vaid loudspeakers where the set of compromises made by the designer are such that the speakers sound very different.
In the end the only thing that is important is whether one can sit down and be emotionally connected with the music. And that comes down to a personal set of criteria for each ear/brain/person.
dave
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Sadly there is very little in audio that has been scientifically proven. To do a proper test is costly and needs to be well enuff documented so that it can be replicated.
....................................... ..................
dave
Everyday differences in audio are proven.
In fact the listening tests have gotten so sensitive, that these small differences arn't audible when listening to music.
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I think six was too much, do you would test 4 wires?
(1 for bass and 2 or 3 for treble)
What was the diameter from your cable?
(the raw six cores diameter)
If you read my posts, I've described them. Didn't like the two 22g + 1 14g. set up. (So that means this is done four times - two to the negative terminals and two to the positive terminals.)
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My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up. Here's the deal.... With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves. So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data. If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
OK, I got that off my chest. (:
Back to work.
Just want to say that for decades, I heard/read and believed that there were no differences in the way cables sounded. You know those crappy IC's that come with the BB Sony/Pioneer receivers? I used to use them. One time, I bought monoprice IC's. There was not supposed to be any sound differences in my mind - but it was pretty damn obvious that there was! That's what changed my mind.
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Everyday differences in audio are proven.
In fact the listening tests have gotten so sensitive, that these small differences arn't audible when listening to music.
Examples of scientific tests?
I personally believe that the ear/brain is still the most sensitive test instrument available (and that many unproven differences exist), but it can be easily fooled so turning that into a valid scientific test is a real challenge.
dave
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If ears consistently hear things that "scientific tests" do not, then the problem is likely with the tests. I.E., not measuring the right things; not sensitive enough; something.
In an earlier post, I mentioned that I heard a "whang" sound when I used solid wires in my system. I can not even describe that in scientific terms. I have no idea how one could measure it. But that does not mean that it doesn't exist.
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If you read my posts, I've described them. Didn't like the two 22g + 1 14g. set up. (So that means this is done four times - two to the negative terminals and two to the positive terminals.)
OK, if possible use bare wire contact to avoid additional connections.
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Everyday differences in audio are proven.
In fact the listening tests have gotten so sensitive, that these small differences arn't audible when listening to music.
AmplifierDesigner333.
If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.
I see no proof, just opinion. By the way, some of those really pushing tests on other forums (not AC forums) have patents whose revenue is tied to those patents. Conflicts of interest for sure. Please provide the evidence that proves "everyday differences in audio are proven".
Please explain how one obtains 95% confidence that a difference is perceivable when 50% of the test group is in the bass increasing mode area while 50% is in the bass decreasing mode area of the venue.
If one cannot answer these questions, then one does not know whether the tests were performed correctly, and the only responsible scientific response is you do not know.
By the way, I have already demonstrated, more than once, that a wire and a twisted cable has inductive reactance on top of the dc resistance. So you left out some basic scientific fact. Please state all the facts gentlemen.
cheers and happy Memorial Day Speed.
steve
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I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference…
Yet you say this and expect to be believed? Not that i has a view either way, but isn’t it a bit disingenuous?
The DAC DAC 2 sound is more textured. Deeper imaging, blacker background. It's simply amazing! Maybe it's the lower noise. Maybe it's the lower distortion. I can say without a doubt that the DAC DAC 2 combined with the MEGAschino is the sweetest sounding setup I've heard yet!
dave
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OK this is getting into industry people sniping at each other, which never ends well. Stop it. Just agree to disagree.
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In good listening tests, it's easy to confirm that differences were heard, although in very sensitive tests uncontrolled variables can mess up the results.
But on the other hand it's hard (or impossible) to prove a negative.
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In good listening tests, it's easy to confirm that differences were heard, although in very sensitive tests uncontrolled variables can mess up the results.
But on the other hand it's hard (or impossible) to prove a negative.
A listening test is like going to a restaurant and asking the waiter to conduct a taste test with the strangers at the next table so you determine what to order. It's a useless charade.
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In good listening tests, it's easy to confirm that differences were heard, although in very sensitive tests uncontrolled variables can mess up the results.
But on the other hand it's hard (or impossible) to prove a negative.
So where is your evidence? I certainly have not seen nor heard about these easy to confirm sonic differences via good listening tests. How do you know the tests are good? Please provide an example that we can all read, because all I have ever heard is that all capacitors, wiring schemes, resistors, materials sound the same.
I have yet to see anyone on any forums explain how one obtains 95% confidence that a sonic difference exists when 50% of the test group is in the bass increasing mode area while 50% is in the bass decreasing mode area of the venue. Please explain in detail.
cheers and happy Memorial Day.
steve
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So where is your evidence? I certainly have not seen nor heard about these easy to confirm sonic differences via good listening tests. How do you know the tests are good? Please provide an example that we can all read, because all I have ever heard is that all capacitors, wiring schemes, resistors, materials sound the same.
I have yet to see anyone on any forums explain how one obtains 90-95% confidence that a sonic difference exists when 50% of the test group is in the bass increasing mode area while 50% is in the bass decreasing mode area of the venue. Please explain in detail.
cheers
steve
This is an interesting read about that.
https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-alstine-abx-comparator-review-part-1-audio-store-wiring/
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This is an interesting read about that.
https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-alstine-abx-comparator-review-part-1-audio-store-wiring/
Unfortunately the article does not include any variable confounds that skew the testing results. Maybe one. Covering only a very small portion of all the testing procedure, material etc. does not procure an accurate result.
1) Does testing procedure mimic actual normal listening? Does the test itself mimic normal listening? If it does not, one is comparing apples to oranges and attempting to push there error results upon all of us.
2) What materials are used in the test? Is it silver, copper, bronze that is used?
3) What is the venue's characteristics?
a. Is the bass heavy, bass light, how heavy are the bass modes?
b. Are there echo's in the venue?
c. What types and very important is the quality of recordings are being played?
4) How is the procedure performed?
5) Has medical experts, 3rd party, ever been consulted?
6) Does one us a circuit, even if it is just like a passive? Is it perfect, or does it degrade the signal as well?
etc, etc, etc.
As one can see, simply performing a test with little consideration to any variable confounds will skew, 100% of the time, toward a conclusion of no sonic difference. In fact, leaving out even one variable confound will skew the results toward no sonic difference.
I don't call that an accurate test.
The more one knows, the more power one has.
cheers and happy Memorial Day.
steve
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I have yet to see anyone on any forums explain how one obtains 90-95% confidence that a sonic difference exists when 50% of the test group is in the bass increasing mode area while 50% is in the bass decreasing mode area of the venue. Please explain in detail.
It is much easier to staistically show DUTs are different. And many of the “these sound the same” are extending a null ABX test to where it cannot go. ie many of those results are bogus. We have David Clark to thank for the broad misuse of ABX tests to “conclude" that many DUT do not sound different.
dave
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It is much easier to staistically show DUTs are different. And many of the “these sound the same” are extending a null ABX test to where it cannot go. ie many of those results are bogus. We have David Clark to thank for the broad misuse of ABX tests to “conclude" that many DUT do not sound different.
dave
Virtually all testing is inaccurate due to major procedural problems, as I have mentioned previously. Almost all testing does not include even two confound variables, not even two. Not addressing all the variable confounds will tend to skew the results. If the testees understood the confound variables involved, I do not believe they would have never become involved in David Clark's comparative tests. Again, the confound variables skew, to some extent, every single time.
cheers
steve
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Virtually all testing is a fraud due to major procedural problems.
Indeed. A valid blind test is harder than many think.
dave
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Indeed. A valid blind test is harder than many think.
dave
I agree, very difficult and takes much time, not a session or two, or even dozen. Of course the marketers won't tell the public, or they don't understand the problems themselves. I also know of some, pushing the agenda hard on other forums (not AC), who have paid for patents (in perception) so a huge financial incentive. So the public never learns of the problems, thinking their position is fact/all the science.
Cheers and all the best Dave.
steve
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I'd like to say that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. IF you believe that people believe that they are "hearing" differences in speaker cables that are not there - then that can also mean that those that believe that there are no measurable sound differences in speaker cables are not hearing differences that are there!
Also us audiophiles (sorry to those that don't like that term) are generally an extraordinarily intelligent group. We are scientists, engineers, etc. We are not all dumb, follow the standard line ordinary folk. Just using me as one example, I never wanted to believe that IC's and speaker cables made a difference in the sound. I DON'T WANT THEM TO!!! I don't want cables that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to sound better than $10 monoprice cables. (I'm cheap and have low income.) I wish, I wish, I wish! I want a $300 receiver to sound fantastic but when I crank up a new component or cheap set of cables and my ears scream - TURN IT DOWN!!! - every time, it's hard to believe those people that say that IC's, (for example) don't change the sound of my system. Again, this isn't a one time (period) thing, it's been happening to me - and us - for decades. But because "we" can't measure it - we must be fooling ourselves.