[DogFish]

I'm looking for replacement towers in a large living room with tile floors and an entire wall that is two large sliding glass doors.  Glass treatment like drapes aren't an option.  An area rug is possible.  Realistically I'm not able to get more than about a foot between speakers and back wall.  My question is whether certain speaker technology is better in a room that has lots of reflections?  For example, a waveguide tweeter provides a wider soundstage but would it be more difficult to dampen in a room like this?  I'm assuming a hard dome tweeter would, in general, appear 'brighter' than soft dome or ribbon - is this effect amplified in a room with lots of glass or tile?  Are there similar things I should consider regarding the midrange?  I know the room has a tremendous amount to do with audio quality and I'm trying to figure out at what speaker price point I stop seeing improvements due to limitations of the environment.

Thanks,
Brian

[JLM]

Welcome to Audio Circle Brian!

Good questions.  Glad you recognize the room as an important factor in accurate in home sound reproduction.

Recommend reading up on Controlled Directivity design.  The theory is to limit room interaction via narrowing mid/high frequency dispersion.  Many use waveguides (shallow horns to match mid/woofer and tweeter dispersion at the crossover frequency.

And with your placement limitations recommend a bass limited speaker and add sub(s) if desired (that can be adjusted). 

Suggest looking into Amphion monitors.  They market their speakers as being very room/placement friendly.  Their waveguide approach was developed before Controlled Directivity became a thing. 

[Saturn94]

I also recommend you check out Controlled Directivity designs.

Soundfield Audio has some great room friendly designs

https://soundfieldaudio.net/

They also do custom work if you desire.

I have a pair of their original Monitor 1 speakers (passive coax mid/tweeter, active bass driver).  I was pleasantly surprised how much alike they sound in different rooms (one of the designer’s goals).

[Dieterle Tool]

Your price point will have a big effect on what we can suggest.

How about Audio Kinesis' Jazz Modules or the Gina's with the Swarm subwoofer arrangement? Also thinking of Pi Speakers. They can custom build controlled directivity, bass reflex designs and low frequency modules to suit your needs. Both of these designers have a wealth of knowledge and are a pleasure to work with. Also, Duke, from Audio Kinesis is an "industry participant" here on the 'circle.

Dieter

[SoCalWJS]

Welcome to AC!
Headphones.  Nearfield main listening position.

[DogFish]

I will read up on Controlled Directivity - to be honest I've never heard of it.  Thanks for the recommendations.  I was hoping to stay under $5k for new fronts but trying to decide if its better to put it all towards speakers or split it so that $2-3k is for speakers and similar amount on room treatments.   It will be a shared use room (home theater and stereo) but I'm more concerned with stereo quality.

Thanks again,
Brian

[Tyson]

Agreed, something with controlled directivity is going to be ideal for your setup.  JTL Audio, Klipsch Heritage, Audio Kinesis, all have great speakers.  I like the Klipsch Forte III because it's voiced to be placed near walls and still sound good. 

Also, re: the glass - even medium/heavy drapes will help.  Or some nice clean/crisp looking roman shades. 

Or maybe time for a new spouse....

[youngho]

Realistically I'm not able to get more than about a foot between speakers and back wall.

If you can get about a foot (or even a bit more) and stretch your budget, consider the Gradient 1.4. These are amazing. Gradient also makes less expensive speakers designed to be positioned to be close to walls like the Six.

My question is whether certain speaker technology is better in a room that has lots of reflections?  For example, a waveguide tweeter provides a wider soundstage but would it be more difficult to dampen in a room like this?  I'm assuming a hard dome tweeter would, in general, appear 'brighter' than soft dome or ribbon - is this effect amplified in a room with lots of glass or tile?  Are there similar things I should consider regarding the midrange?

High directivity designs have already been brought up, but the Gradient 1.4 has a cardioid dispersion, which had the additional benefit of limiting the effects of the back wall.

I know the room has a tremendous amount to do with audio quality and I'm trying to figure out at what speaker price point I stop seeing improvements due to limitations of the environment.

Well, these are not towers, but given the constraints you describe in terms of placement and room acoustics, there's the Dutch & Dutch 8C (https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system) and the Kii Three (https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker), both of which can be positioned extremely close to the wall.

[A_shah]

Not sure about controlled directivity , but I replaced passive Kef LS 50 in my home office upstairs with active Kef Kef LS50W they sound wonderful and can be tuned to be placed close to the wall in my case they are on 4 post iron  stands from monoprice . The passive LS50 now serve as the two front channels in a large room ( 16 x 34 X 9 foot to 15 foot vaulted ceiling) for my home theater system have no problems with SQ or distortion they are been powered by Wyred4Sound MC 7150 the Subwoofer in the corner is HSU VTF 15H -MK2

[HAL]

Another option is looking for a pair of Allison CD-9 speakers. 

Have a friend that had to have the speakers on the front wall and these worked extremely well in his setup.

Good luck with your search.

[sebrof]

Am I wrong to immediately think of Ohm speakers? Surprised they haven't been mentioned yet.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

You might want to consider Audio Note.  They are made to be placed in the corners of a room.  Martin Logans may work.

[witchdoctor]

Get an amp that has room correction software like the Paradigm PW Amp (on sale now for around $249 a 50% discount):

Anthem Room Correction is a game-changer
The shape of your room, the height of the ceiling, the material covering the floor, the thickness and texture of the walls, the presence or absence of windows (and window coverings),  and other architectural factors will have a significant impact on your audio system’s performance—no matter how great your speakers, amplifier, and other components might be. It’s why the speakers you buy don’t sound the same at home as they did in the showroom.

“Playing the room” describes the time-consuming process of placing, listening, repositioning, and repeating those steps ad nauseum until you’re satisfied with your audio system’s sound. A few people enjoy this process, but most of us don’t. Fortunately, technology offers an easier way: Calibration tools like Anthem Room Correction (ARC—but don’t confuse it with HDMI’s Audio Return Channel) can analyze a room’s layout and automatically change amplifier settings to compensate for the room’s shortcomings. Such tools aren’t a substitute for poor speaker placement, but they can help address many of the adverse effects of speaker-room interaction. That’s why they’re called “room correction” solutions.

The presence of ARC in Paradigm’s PW Amp is a game changer in multi-room audio systems—it raises this product head and shoulders above the competition. None of the competing solutions from Blue Sound, Denon (Heos), Yamaha (MusicCast), or several others—integrate a room-correction tool in their streaming solutions. Sonos has a rudimentary system that relies on the microphone built into iOS devices, but it's results are not nearly as dramatic as what ARC can do.

Many of today’s mid-range and higher A/V receivers come with some kind of room correction, too, but few compare to ARC—and I don’t know of any reasonably priced model that will allow you to apply room correction to any zone other than the main listening room.

And if that’s not enough, you can run ARC’s calculations via Wi-Fi. Unlike most other room-correction systems, you aren’t limited by a 20-foot cable that has to plug back into your A/V receiver. You can run ARC across your house and even from a different floor. I was able to EQ my family room speakers a good 60 feet away from where I installed the Paradigm PW Amp.



https://www.techhive.com/article/3153229/paradigm-pw-amp-review-a-dts-play-fi-amplifier-that-will-bring-out-the-best-from-your-speakers.html

[witchdoctor]

Next consider speakers using  technology that adapts the sound to the room such as Ohm Speakers:

https://ohmspeaker.com/technology/

With Ohm Acoustics speakers, all the listeners in the room hear a balanced 3-D image. Wherever you sit in the room, the extra distance the sound has to travel to reach you from the speaker is exactly offset by that speaker’s louder output from that direction. If the same level of sound is fed to both speakers, the listeners on the far left hear both speakers at the same level, even though they are much farther from the right speaker than the left.

This acoustical technique is called Controlled Directivity, and it takes advantage of the fact that humans localize the source of sound using different cuing mechanisms at different frequencies. It isn’t enough to merely aim speakers diagonally across the listening area. In each frequency range the output level and directivity must be carefully regulated to achieve the desired results. This Full Room Stereo capability allows everyone in the room to enjoy the performance as much as the person sitting in dead center. All Ohm speakers are designed to deliver Full Room Stereo.

Review:

https://youtu.be/Y_8xUDYBgZQ

[witchdoctor]

Am I wrong to immediately think of Ohm speakers? Surprised they haven't been mentioned yet.

You are 100% right

[JLM]

Ohm speakers are omni-directional, the exact opposite of Controlled Directivity, and are intended to interact with the room.  The Ohm website is misleading.  This is exactly the opposite of what the Original Poster is correctly after.

Room correction software, should be considered as the final tweaking step after getting the right room (size, shape, materials) first; synergistic speakers to the given room second; and appropriate treatments - contact GIK here at Audio Circle (third).  Software correction of mid/high frequencies will change the character of the chosen speakers, so most recommend limiting it to bass frequencies (below 200 Hz).

In this case the room size and shape are good, but too many hard surfaces and the described speaker placement is less than ideal.  GIK absorption panels can be customized to complement nearly any aesthetic.  Area rug is a good idea.  Mid/near-field listening would help reduce room effects but don't know if a 4-10 ft equilateral triangle listening setup is feasible.  Headphones are always an option.  The Amphion monitors I mentioned fit in your price range, but hard to find a dealer for an audition.

[youngho]

JLM, it sounds like the Ohm Acoustics speakers aren't totally omnidirectional, due to the presence of padding, at least from what I've read here: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/687ohm/index.html

Technically, however, a totally omnidirectional speaker has constant directivity.

[witchdoctor]

Ohm speakers are omni-directional, the exact opposite of Controlled Directivity, and are intended to interact with the room.  The Ohm website is misleading.  This is exactly the opposite of what the Original Poster is correctly after.

Room correction software, should be considered as the final tweaking step after getting the right room (size, shape, materials) first; synergistic speakers to the given room second; and appropriate treatments - contact GIK here at Audio Circle (third).  Software correction of mid/high frequencies will change the character of the chosen speakers, so most recommend limiting it to bass frequencies (below 200 Hz).

In this case the room size and shape are good, but too many hard surfaces and the described speaker placement is less than ideal.  GIK absorption panels can be customized to complement nearly any aesthetic.  Area rug is a good idea.  Mid/near-field listening would help reduce room effects but don't know if a 4-10 ft equilateral triangle listening setup is feasible.  Headphones are always an option.  The Amphion monitors I mentioned fit in your price range, but hard to find a dealer for an audition.

If he doesn't like Ohm speakers he can send them back, NP.

[rollo]

  Gradient. Take a look. www.gradient.fi  Not a gradient dealer.


charles

[poseidonsvoice]

JLM, it sounds like the Ohm Acoustics speakers aren't totally omnidirectional, due to the presence of padding, at least from what I've read here: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/687ohm/index.html

Technically, however, a totally omnidirectional speaker has constant directivity.

Youngho is right.

Remember that constant directivity and controlled directivity are different. Most speakers are neither. Some have one or the other and very few have both over a *given frequency range*. It is important to know which frequency ranges where each are important. This is the basis of the psychacoustic research done by Toole, Geddes, etc...

Companies like Dutch&Dutch, JBL, Kii Audio, Genelec, KEF, etc...use both methods to their advantage and have an understanding of the enormous benefits in small rooms (pretty much all the rooms “we” audiophiles use).

Most totally omnidirectional speakers have no control of directivity (they are 360 degrees) but may be constantly directive over a given angle and over a given set of frequencies. It is impossible to know where without good measurements.

But I think this is getting way too technical for the OP and probably confusing to boot.

Best,
Anand.