Trouble with Honda...

some young guy · « **on:** 12 Mar 2008, 07:38 pm »

So the quick and dirty version is this:

We bought an '06 Honda Pilot new in "06. We got it pretty well loaded for a good price and purchased the 10 year bumper to bumper warranted too. Less than 1 year after purchase, we started having a problem with the driver's side power seat. It moves on it's own... down and back (even while driving). I brought it in the first time and they replaced the switch, telling me it was defective. The problem persisted, so I brought it in for a return visit. This time they replaced the seat base. Well, the problem is still there, but now they tell me that they've replaced everything and they don't know what else to do. So my question is what should I do next? Can you consider a car a "lemon" after 2 years because of a problem with a power seat? All I know is that I don't want to be stuck with this problem, especially when I need to sell in the future.

JeffB · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 08:01 pm »

If you can't get a good answer here you might try the forums at
www.clubhonda.com.

I haven't actually tried clubhonda but I used to read
www.clubrsx.com

clubrsx is very active with knowledgeable people.

lt5dude · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 09:04 pm »

Maybe whatever controls the seat's position memory (the car's computer?) is screwed up. I wouldn't let them bail on the problem, especially since there is a safety issue involved.
Good luck!

ohenry · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 09:12 pm »

If you can't get satisfaction from the Service Manager or General Manager, the next step is to call Honda Automobile Customer Service. That number is 1-800-999-1009. Be prepared to give them all information (VIN, names, dates, etc.).

DaveC113 · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 09:26 pm »

I had a similar issue with my '06 Impreza... except it left me stranded twice. The dealer said they didn't know what happened and everything is fine, but he second time they said that I demanded a loaner until they fixed it, or told them they can buy the car back (a loaner was part of their service deal sold with the car). They found the problem the next day, it was just sticky thermostat.

Car dealers need some encouragement sometimes... and yes, they are required to fix the car, minor problem or not. Electrical issues in cars can be frustrating and take a long time to track down. When I owned an auto shop, I would never give a quote for an electrical problem.

Dave

electricbear · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 10:14 pm »

I would check with an attorney but I think this will fall under the lemon clause. If they fail to get it right after 3 attempts it's a lemon. I had a friend with a Saab that had transmission problems and he sued over it and won. He was refunded in full the price he paid for the vehicle and got his legal costs.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 10:23 pm »

I have access to an online company called "AllDataPro" and checked for TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins), and none show regarding power seats. "All Data" is an aftermarket information gathering company, so it's definitely not the last word in information, the dealer is. Many years ago, I worked at a Honda dealership, but have since lost track of the where-abouts of my old buddies. I was trying to find some 'inside' info for you. Meaning if they'd seen this problem before or not.

I have seen this behaviour in other makes of vehicles, and the repair for most of those turned out to be a reprogram of the control module that operates the seats. But in this day and age of auto repair, reprogramming is usually the first place the tech will attempt a repair. So I'd feel safe in saying your dealership has done this already.

Another odd thing I've seen happen with power seats that move "on their own", is the installation of some types of seat covers. When you sit down and wiggle your butt a little bit, it pulls the cover just enough to grab the seat buttons. This is obviously not your issue if you don't have seat covers. But bear in mind sometimes there are outside influences that create issues like this. Without becoming offensive, if you are a very heavy person, your ass may be overlapping the edge of the seat enough to engage the switch. This would engage the "down and back" condition you described.

One more to look for: Many modern vehicle have "Driver #1" and "Driver #2" settings. These setting alter everything from radio station preferences, HVAC settings, and yes....power seat positions. Something (your elbow?) maybe pushing this button. Now most vehicles I've seen will disable this feature unless the transmission is in Park. Honda may be an exception?

The whole Lemon law thing.....well....if you have a LOT of patience and a LOT of extra time on your hands, you could take this path. But you'll be chatting with Honda attorneys and they have every reason in the world to keep you in THAT car. Plus, they've probably got more money and time than you do. The will find every reason to make you NOT want to use the lemon law as an alternative.

With the warranty you've got, you should be covered for a long time. Plus, you've got a papertrail pretty early on in the life of the vehicle so even if you manage to get out of the warranty, you "should" still be taken care of. Have patience man. This is my career. Twice to the dealer for an intermittent electrical problem is an everyday occurrence in a modern car.
Unfortunately.

Bob

some young guy · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Mar 2008, 11:38 pm »

Thanks for the replies guys. I picked up the Pilot today and the manager told me that they were once again (for the 4th attempt) unable to find/fix the problem. They even went a step further and told me they will not make another attempt to fix it. I was given the number for Honda (as ohenry has posted here) and told to take it up with them.

While I don't have seat covers, we did look at the possibility that my ass was the culprit. However, I'm not a large man, so that one didn't pan out. Besides, this also happens when there's no one in the vehicle. There's no "Driver positions", so that's not it either. I told the manager very clearly that I understand and appreciate their position on this. I know they've done what they can do. But they insist that if they don't see it happen with their own eyes, they won't do anything further. When I asked what they might do if they did see it, all I could get from him was "I don't know.". So here I am, in my own little circle...

Len_Dreyer · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 02:01 am »

Two thoughts, if possible get someone to video the moving seat while you have both hands on the steering wheel. Send a copy of the video to Honda management with your written complaint. Also, for safety reasons, consider disconnecting the power to that seat.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 02:32 pm »

Quote from: some young guy on 12 Mar 2008, 11:38 pm

But they insist that if they don't see it happen with their own eyes, they won't do anything further.

In a dealership situation, this is highly unusual. Their next step "should" be to call Honda Technical Assistance and start a "TAC Case" (Technical Assistance Center). Being a dealer (the representative of the manufacturer) they are the end of the line for diagnostics and repair. After all, if they can't fix it, who can? Honda Corporate would be interested in hearing the dealerships position on the matter. Especially due to a possibly safety/liability issue. I've heard of one situation where a seat moved ALL of the way foreward, thereby pinning the legs of the driver against the accelerator pedal. No harm was done, but the police officer on the scene was not amused and the woman received a ticket for almost 100 MPH. It took her awhile to regain her composure, but eventually she shut the key off and coasted to the shoulder. Fortunately, this happened on a highway. Imagine the possibilities if it were in town, or a subdivision.

You are not obligated to keep taking it to the same dealer. You factory warranty is valid at any Honda (and maybe Acura too?) dealer in the country. Feel free to roam. You also have the freedom of calling other Honda dealers to see if they have seen your symptom as well. Keep in mind another dealer may see you as "fresh meat" and want to impress you by doing something radical like fixing your car to steal your future business from the other dealer. The other side of the coin is that a new dealer may see you as somebody dragging in yet another "clusterf__k" nobody else can fix and blow you off too.

Bob

Levi · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 03:37 pm »

They should have replaced the wiring harness. I would take it to another shop.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 04:45 pm »

Quote from: Len_Dreyer on 13 Mar 2008, 02:01 am

Two thoughts, if possible get someone to video the moving seat while you have both hands on the steering wheel. Send a copy of the video to Honda management with your written complaint. Also, for safety reasons, consider disconnecting the power to that seat.

Above is the best advice. Video evidence backing up a signed statement would not be denied by any jury. Forget thinking about this in any other way than a jury case. It may NOT become a jury case, but ACTING as if it will FORCES H to immediately handle your complaint as if they are facing a loosing litigation case; that means they MUST settle before that event occurs & BEFORE YOU HIRE AN ATTORNEY.

A first week attorney would have to work to loose your case. This means Honda, after your two visits already, will be almost certainly forced to fix the problem for an absolute certainty on the next repair (overseen by a H FACTORY TECH REPRESENTATIVE) OR replace your car.

Your case, as described, could cause an MCI (multiple casualty incident) by causing loss of control. H CAN NOT ignore the problem w/o major financial liability/exposure.

1. Get video evidence on date-marked video.
2. Send narrative of all actions so far + video copy simultaneously to H factory rep & the prior dealer w/ 3-business day ultimatum to either take the car & fix it in a timely manner w/ a free replacement vehicle during the repair OR replace the vehicle w/ a new car OR purchase the vehicle back from you. You COULD, if you desire, possibly, because you already brought it in twice w/ no repair, & because it is so urgently related to your personal safety, force the issue & order them to re-purchase your car. This may not be as succesful but you could try it.
3. The ultimatum includes your promise to turn it over to an attorney three business days after H factory receives the evidence.
4. Mail it w/ signed return receipt required to both H Factory & the dealer service rep.

From the perspective of H factory & the dealer, it is within the realm of possibility that your problem as described is NOT actually happening.

The video absolutely completely eliminates the above perspective off the table. You will be in almost complete control after you get the video.

Addendum: lighting & camera sensitivity may make it difficult to perceive the movement. Consider putting some temporary markings/coverings/line markers on the door panel, floor mat & seat itself to increase visibility when the seat moves, even while the driver is seated if necessary. Set it up w/ the camera plugged into the DC power jack so the camera battery won't die on standby so you can pull over & get it recorded quickly. You don't need a passenger if you do it like that; it would be best to include your one free hand in the video but you'll have to practice to include your free hand AND the seat movement.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 04:54 pm »

GRRRR!!! BARK BARK!!! ARRGGGG!!!! GROWL!!! yea! what he said

Turk · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 05:23 pm »

"Lemon Laws" vary from state to state. Here is a link to the CA "Lemon Law". http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon.php If the operation of the vehicle poses a threat of loss of control of the vehicle, please remember that if you have knowledge of the problem, continue to operate the vehicle, loose control and injure someone else, you open yourself to possible liability. Yes, the manufacturer and dealer will be sued, but you will be brought into the action.

CA has some of the strongest consumer legislation in the country related to motor vehicle sales. While no manufacturer likes to repurchase a vehicle, if the problem exposes them to substantial liability and as ro7939 explains, you can safely attempt to capture the problem on tape, they will beat feet to fix or provide another vehicle.

Call Honda Customer service, also and explain the serious nature of the problem.
By Phone
toll-free number: 1-800-999-1009

All else fails, call a lawyer.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 05:31 pm »

Quote from: Turk on 13 Mar 2008, 05:23 pm

...If the operation of the vehicle poses a threat of loss of control of the vehicle, please remember that if you have knowledge of the problem, continue to operate the vehicle, loose control and injure someone else, you open yourself to possible liability. Yes, the manufacturer and dealer will be sued, but you will be brought into the action...

Ooops, didn't think of that angle. Very true. The more you "proove" the facts as you state them above, the more you are responsible if you continue to operate the vehicle.

That's a conundrum for which I have no good advice. Once you get the video, either unplug the power cable to the seat motor (should be easy/under the seat) or stop operating the vehicle.

If the seat moves sans power cable, I'll listen for your story on the Rusty Humphrey show.

Levi · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 05:58 pm »

Yup. Stop using the car until this is fixed.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 06:01 pm »

OR........ Before you call for a military aerial strike, and a crime scene investigation complete with forensics, you could focus on having the car fixed.

Oh why didn't I think of that.

Assuming you still live in the zip code I found in your profile, there's a truck load of Honda dealers in your area.
Pick one.
Focus on the ones that have earned awards from Honda Corporate:

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/dealer-locator/results.aspx?address=&city=&state=&zip=94566&dealername=&filters=

The dealer you're currently going to may be lax in training requirements, the place may have moral issues, who knows.
Simply take the car to another dealer. No need for posturing, threats, bla bla bla.....

some young guy · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 06:20 pm »

Thanks guys! Lot's of good advice here... that's why I posted about my auto issues in an audio forum

Don't worry about me continuing on this... Once I dig my teeth into something, I don't let go until it's done. This is our only vehicle for the family, as I don't sell enough Thingamaknobs to buy a second one... yet

So I'll probably try filming it, then I'll unhook the seat until things get figured out.

Thanks again y'all... I really appreciate all of your thoughts and time.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 06:22 pm »

You have to promise to tell us what the repair was.....ok?

Bob

some young guy · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Mar 2008, 10:57 pm »

I won't for get all the people that helped me along the way... I promise.