AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => AudioKinesis Loudspeakers => Topic started by: 226bw on 22 Mar 2010, 05:31 pm
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Hi Duke,
This is the same Chris that has been in contact with you regarding your speakers. Rather than asking you more questions in private emails I thought I'd use the forum, with the thought that others may also be interested in your answers.
Before contacting you I had been contemplating purchasing an Audio Space Ref 1, either the KT88 or 300b version. However I notice that you may "voice" your speakers using Atma-Sphere amps. These are not available for audition in my part of the world, so I was wondering if you could give me an overview of the amps sound and why you like to use them for testing your speakers (if that is the case). The S-30 would be within my budget, the preamp might have to wait.
I'd also be interested in other forum members impression of the Atma-Sphere line.
(I listen primarily to blues and blues based rock)
Cheers,
Chris
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Hi Chris, welcome!
Good question - I'd be interested, too.
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My website has details on my 40 some year history as a hobbyist, musician, guitar hawker, pro and hobbyist, some recording work.
I've heard many of the best amps and on the right load (not too much if at all below 8 Ohms, moderately flat above 100 Hz) Ralph's amps may be in a singular class. After Duke made an impedance flattening device for my monitors, about 86-87 dB sensitivity, the amp just flat out did any and everything I could possibly expect it to do. It absolutely played about twice the power of my Plinius SA-50 Mk3, 50Wpc pure class A, not a slouch power wise, will drive 2 Ohm loads, up to then my favorite SS. The OTL 30W played any desired SPL in my 3200cf room. I've considerable experience with very good transformer coupled tubes, including what would otherwise be about $30k/pr custom 845 tubes built with the best Asian sourced custom transformers (trans about $3k ea).
The OTL musicality, spatiality and top to bottom purity may be in a class by itself. Before the EQ device the sound was still good but the 20 Ohm peak @ 2.2 kHz just skewed up the FR too much. My friend who built the above described custom tubes is familiar with every noteworthy tube design. He swears by the OTL on the right load, saying nothing may beat it including his own transformer designs. He compliments zero to few commercial designs of any kind. He owns the Cary 300B; I saw it underneath and he mocked the grotesquely bad work and parts (his opinion; one part was actually completely senseless and not even in the circuit!).
If/when finances allow I will get the 30W OTL from Duke. IMO on the right load the OTL would occupy permanent hierarchy in your chain of system quality. You'd never consider a speaker requiring a different amp.
For its balance of cost/SPL/sound quality nothing touches the OTL. Again, 30W powering 86-87 dB speakers in a 3200cf room seemed to have endless headroom, sounding more like a 200-400W brute. The monitors have only a single ported 6.5", so results are unknown powering something with significant back-EMF.
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Hi Chris, good question!
The extent of the "voicing" you mention is actually only in the impedance curve. Briefly, the Atma-Sphere S-30 has an exceptionally high output impedance (low damping factor) so it is exceptionally difficult to find speakers for. Most speakers with a suitable impedance curve are well above the price category of the S-30. I figured that if my speakers worked well with the S-30 at one end of the spectrum, and a NuForce amp at the other end (those were the two I used in development of my first generation waveguide speakers), they'd also work well with just about everything in between.
Also, I thought the S-30 was such an elegant little amp that I really wanted to showcase it. From what I understand, S-30 sales have increased significantly since I've been using the amp at audio shows. Now in my opinion the M-60 is superior, but still the S-30 is pretty amazing in its price range when driving a suitable load.
So it's not that my speakers are voiced for OTLs but not SETs... I've also shown with SET amps from two different manufacturers (deHavilland and NTV). It's that the smooth, fairly high impedance curve works well with a wide variety of amps.
Now as far as "voicing" the speakers, there are two used-adjustable features that come into play. The first is the ability to change the port length, to account for room acoustics and/or amplifier interaction (the low damping factor OTL amps deliver considerably more power into the bass impedance peaks than a solid state amp would, so we lower the tuning frequency to compensate). Second, there is an outboard resistor in a terminal cup on the back of the speaker, and this resistor is bypassing a resistor in the crossover network. By changing the value of this external resistor we can adjust the tweeter's output. Actually the effect is partly shelving and partly tilting, such that the effect is greater at 10 kHz than at 2 kHz. This is a higher quality solution than all but the very best L-pads (which are over $130 each and only available as a custom-order item at 100 pieces minimum). And even then, an L-pad would function as a shelving-only control, with little or no tilting function.
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Count me in as another huge Atma-Sphere fan and supporter.
I have owned/extensively auditioned some great tube and ss amps from the well known and little known vendors out there (Pass, BAT, Moscode, Plinius, VAC, Bryston, CI Audio, Audio Mirror, Bella Extreme, Jeff Rowland, McCormack, AVA, McAllister, and Rogue Audio to just name a few) and the Atma-Sphere MA-1's I am currently using with Vandertsteen 5A's are my favorite amps by far.
As Jim said above, the Atma-Sphere OTL design delivers musicality, detail, texture, and space in ways few amps can do. If you want an amp that gets you off the merry go round and just lets you enjoy the music, this is the amp for you. Check out the Atma-Sphere website and you read about all the accolades and awards. They didn't garner such universal praise by accident.
George
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Our very own TomS. has chosen the Atmasphere M-60 Mk III's as his reference amps for the Abbey's which are 95dB sensitive. He is completely smitten with them to put it lightly. I'm sure he'll chime in when he has the chance.
Anand.
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Our very own TomS. has chosen the Atmasphere M-60 Mk III's as his reference amps for the Abbey's which are 95dB sensitive. He is completely smitten with them to put it lightly. I'm sure he'll chime in when he has the chance.
Anand.
Yes, what Anand and George said...
Zybar and Earflappin turned me on to the M60's (thanks!) and they are as good as anything I've ever heard. They don't really sound like whatever you may think of a "typical" tube amp. They have the harmonic richness and tone you definitely want, but the sheer clarity of them will startle you, without the nasty side effects that such high resolving power sometimes brings with it. Very simple design and Ralph's service is great as well. Highly recommended!
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Since I got my M-60's five years ago I have not even thought about replacing them. How many of us can say that about ANY piece of equipment?
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We used MA 1 monoblocks in our live vs recorded demonstration at THE Show Las Vegas this past January.
The Atmasphere's drove the ribbon mid and treble sections of a single pair of RM50 speaker systems from 220Hz up, in a 28x32x9' ballroom outfitted with 30 listening chairs. With standees we had as many as fifty people on hand hearing a five piece band and two vocalists, recorded in hi-rez and DSD formats with two mics, no mixing board, and no signal processing. Playback was virtually an exact replica of the live performances.
I don't know what more can be expected of any amplifiers. I can tell you that a similar demo we held a year earlier, with all solid state electronics, did not come off as well.
So yes, I do think Ralph's electronics are the best I've heard in my 34 years of professional audio.
Brian Cheney
Pres VMPS Ribbon
www.vmpsaudio.com
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Now I wish I needed an amplifier! I really would like to hear these.
Unfortunately, my speakers are internally tri-amped. :( :duh:
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The only Atma-Spheres I've heard were Hmen's M60s driving the RM40s (mine until I sold them to him). I was amazed at the bass they could produce. Very clear sound. Not warm or euphonic at all.
I know as a philisophical design philosophy, I am not into the OTL topology due to the amount of feedback required, but those amps made me question my beliefs. Almost.
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Now I wish I needed an amplifier! I really would like to hear these.
Unfortunately, my speakers are internally tri-amped. :( :duh:
Russell - Funny, I am listening to International Guitar Night II on my M60's as I type. The tapping on the second cut (Celtic Medley) is spooky...
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Russell - Funny, I am listening to International Guitar Night II on my M60's as I type. The tapping on the second cut (Celtic Medley) is spooky...
Hmmm...Perhaps I should start looking through Audiogon for some used M60's that I can update. I was going to build a pair of GM70 SET's...
Anand.
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Hmmm...Perhaps I should start looking through Audiogon for some used M60's that I can update. I was going to build a pair of GM70 SET's...
Anand.
I have a feeling those are very different sounds. You might try to listen to a SET and an OTL. Those are as different as tube topologies can be. In theory/rule-of-thumb (which is broad generalizations that don't always hold), the SET will err on even harmonics, mostly H2 with little if any higher order harmonics. The OTL, via feedback will likely create less overall distortion but more higher order through IMD and due to PP canceling, err on the odd harmonics.
Pass has often said that in listening tests, people often pick the amp that sides on H3 over one that sides on H2. I think (this being my hypothesis) that the H3 (PP usually) amp typically sounds faster, more detailed, while the H2 amp sounds warmer more inviting. The truth will come in long term listening. I think I determined I prefer the amps that err on the H2 side, but I also believe it comes down to personal preference.
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Hmmm...Perhaps I should start looking through Audiogon for some used M60's that I can update. I was going to build a pair of GM70 SET's...
Anand.
I'll be happy to sell you a pair. :eyebrows:
George
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I know as a philisophical design philosophy, I am not into the OTL topology due to the amount of feedback required, but those amps made me question my beliefs. Almost.
The S-30 has 2 dB of global negative feedback. The M-60 has 1 dB of global negative feedback. The MA-1 and MA-2 have zero global negative feedback. Other OTL amp manufacturers sometimes use higher feedback which results in higher damping factors, making their amps compatible with a wider range of speakers.
On a somewhat different subject, occasionally you'll see a negative comment about Atma-Sphere amps claiming that they're thin or bright or something. Inevitably this is due to the way the amplifier interacts with that particular speaker's impedance curve. If I hadn't tamed the impedance peak in Jim Romeyn's speakers, I'm pretty sure the combination would have sounded bright.
I can go into some detail if anyone is interested, but briefly most speakers are designed for the way a constant-voltage amplifier behaves into their impedance curves, which is not the way a low damping factor amplifier behaves, be it SET or OTL or something cooked up by Nelson Pass.
Atma-Sphere was the first amplifier line I became a dealer for, based on the performance of their big amps driving SoundLabs. So compatibility with Atma-Sphere amps was high on my list of priorities for my own speaker designs. As of a couple of years ago Ralph Karsten had the largest collection of Golden Ear Awards of any manufacturer, but even if he didn't have any it would still be an honor to be associated with him and his amplifiers.
Despite the difference in circuitry, I think that OTL and SET amps have more in common than not. Both have low global negative feedback, low damping factors, benign distortion envelopes, relatively benign behavior in the early phases of clipping, and no transformer hysterisis (the slight loss of low-level energy - and thus low-level detail - when the magnetic field in the output transformer is collapsed and then reversed as the waveform crosses to the negative phase of the signal; SET amps simply modulate the field but never collapse and reverse it, while OTL amps... you know...). The types of speakers that work well with one also work well with the other, assuming the amp is powerful enough. Philosophically I do like the coherence of having a single output tube per side, but I'm not sure there's a real-world issue there. Maybe one day I'll make a high efficiency 32 ohm speaker that can use a single-tube-per-channel OTL amp.
Which brings up another interesting feature of the Atma-Sphere amps: They can be run with less than their full complement of output tubes. I used to do that in the summer in New Orleans.
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I have a feeling those are very different sounds. You might try to listen to a SET and an OTL. Those are as different as tube topologies can be. In theory/rule-of-thumb (which is broad generalizations that don't always hold), the SET will err on even harmonics, mostly H2 with little if any higher order harmonics. The OTL, via feedback will likely create less overall distortion but more higher order through IMD and due to PP canceling, err on the odd harmonics.
Pass has often said that in listening tests, people often pick the amp that sides on H3 over one that sides on H2. I think (this being my hypothesis) that the H3 (PP usually) amp typically sounds faster, more detailed, while the H2 amp sounds warmer more inviting. The truth will come in long term listening. I think I determined I prefer the amps that err on the H2 side, but I also believe it comes down to personal preference.
And if cost is no object, might as well have both :duh:
Anand.
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And if cost is no object, might as well have both :duh:
Or all three, SET, PP and OTL. All make me happy in various ways. :)
A friend has the Jazz modules and drives them with a Consonance Cyber 845 SET and the combination is really good.
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Ditto all the accolades. Again, after Duke built the impedance EQ device, the OTL got out of the way more than anything I've ever heard. In that way it was most remarkable and noteworthy and the sound was not as I expected because I had no other reference for something with so little sonic footprint, except to convey the musical emotion, forget about everything else and let the music come forth. Staging/imaging was silly good, more 3D than ever before (some of the wrap around sound effect of properly setup MBL Radiahlstrahler omnis).
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Or all three, SET, PP and OTL. All make me happy in various ways. :)
A friend has the Jazz modules and drives them with a Consonance Cyber 845 SET and the combination is really good.
You won't hear many contradictions to that! Are the Cyber 845s reliable?
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Russell - Funny, I am listening to International Guitar Night II on my M60's as I type. The tapping on the second cut (Celtic Medley) is spooky...
So you're probably hearing it better than I ever have!
That's the sort of sound I will use to judge the amount of delay to use on the spot mics (to match the arrival time of the sound at the main mic). When the delay is right everything snaps into focus, especially with percussive sounds and also especially with the relative distances and levels in that recording. The main stereo mic (Royer SF-12) was about 10 feet only from the spots and there was about as much contribution from the spots as from the main in the mix, so it was doubly important to get the delay right. In this case it would have been about 10 msec. One regret for me about that disc is not trying to persuade the principals to allow me to include the lengthy (and entertaining) intro to Aerial Discoveries. The player, Clive Carroll, keeps asking for more and more level from the PA guy, while asking the audience (and me, offstage) if it's too loud. When he finally has enough level, the house is singing like an echo chamber and off he goes into the tune. That's when I fade up, but I should have pressed to include the whole thing.
I just finished mixing a recording you would probably like, if you like that one. It was a local young man who plays a phenomenal flamenco guitar. I recorded a concert he did a month ago for his second CD. I did his first 1 1/2 years ago. This time they hired a real Spanish "cantaor" - Antonio de Jerez, based now in Los Angeles, and the energy level stepped up a big notch. The recording is on its way to LA as we speak, to get Antonio's approval for release.
Gareth Owen is his name and he is a bit of a sensation in Jerez, being a blond Welsh/Irish kid and playing so authentically.
http://www.flamencoguitar.ca/
There are sound samples there, but the new one sounds thinner and more authentic and better to all of us, although they were thrilled with the sound of the first one at the time.
I guess that's an embarrassingly long OT diversion - sorry, but I would not start a new thread for this info! :oops:
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Duke...
Which brings up another interesting feature of the Atma-Sphere amps: They can be run with less than their full complement of output tubes. I used to do that in the summer in New Orleans.
Duke....how many did you remove ? :scratch:
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I had MA-2s on SoundLabs, twenty tubes per side, and went down to fourteen, simulating MA-1s. Later with different speakers I experimented with eight per side, simulating M-60s. I've long since sold my MA-2s, alas. Here in Idaho on my 16-ohm speakers I've pulled tubes on my S-30 and gone down to three per side (five is normal).
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Duke,
Have you tried the Paul Speltz ZERO impedance autoformers (http://www.zeroimpedance.com/story.html)? I believe he originally designed them with OTL's in mind and has sold many to Atma-Sphere owners.
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I have listened to many OTL's for the last 35 years and I never heard a bad one.
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The S-30 has 2 dB of global negative feedback. The M-60 has 1 dB of global negative feedback. The MA-1 and MA-2 have zero global negative feedback. Other OTL amp manufacturers sometimes use higher feedback which results in higher damping factors, making their amps compatible with a wider range of speakers.
I didn't know that. I assumed all OTLs had lots of feedback to lower their Zout.
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I have a pair of Zu speakers at 12 ohm impedance. Any benefit to using the Autoformers to double the 12 ohms to 24 ohms? What would a 24 ohm load do to the S-30 amplifier?
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OK, I'm convinced!
Before posting I read a number of glowing reviews of Atma-sphere amps by the audio press, however enthusiastic endorsements from knowledgeable owners are even more meaningful.
Clearly I need to hear these amps.
When I first contacted Duke about purchasing a pair of his speakers, I hoped they would be an exit level speaker - the last speaker I'd purchase. I was hoping the same for amplification but was less optimistic. After reading the rave reviews and comments re Atma-sphere amps, I'm much more confident (at least that is what I'm telling myself and more importantly my wife :D).
Thanks!
Cheers,
Chris
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You won't hear many contradictions to that! Are the Cyber 845s reliable?
His will be. :) They used to be my amps and when I received them they worked but one of the PS caps had failed. This was due to a failed bleeder resistor. I rebuild the PS with higher voltage/higher wattage bleeders in addition to replacing all the caps. It's been a very happy camper since then.
Back to the OTL topic now. :)
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So you're probably hearing it better than I ever have!
That's the sort of sound I will use to judge the amount of delay to use on the spot mics (to match the arrival time of the sound at the main mic). When the delay is right everything snaps into focus, especially with percussive sounds and also especially with the relative distances and levels in that recording. The main stereo mic (Royer SF-12) was about 10 feet only from the spots and there was about as much contribution from the spots as from the main in the mix, so it was doubly important to get the delay right. In this case it would have been about 10 msec. One regret for me about that disc is not trying to persuade the principals to allow me to include the lengthy (and entertaining) intro to Aerial Discoveries. The player, Clive Carroll, keeps asking for more and more level from the PA guy, while asking the audience (and me, offstage) if it's too loud. When he finally has enough level, the house is singing like an echo chamber and off he goes into the tune. That's when I fade up, but I should have pressed to include the whole thing.
I just finished mixing a recording you would probably like, if you like that one. It was a local young man who plays a phenomenal flamenco guitar. I recorded a concert he did a month ago for his second CD. I did his first 1 1/2 years ago. This time they hired a real Spanish "cantaor" - Antonio de Jerez, based now in Los Angeles, and the energy level stepped up a big notch. The recording is on its way to LA as we speak, to get Antonio's approval for release.
Gareth Owen is his name and he is a bit of a sensation in Jerez, being a blond Welsh/Irish kid and playing so authentically.
http://www.flamencoguitar.ca/
There are sound samples there, but the new one sounds thinner and more authentic and better to all of us, although they were thrilled with the sound of the first one at the time.
I guess that's an embarrassingly long OT diversion - sorry, but I would not start a new thread for this info! :oops:
A fan of the art and having listened to the samples, I'm purchasing. Tho, the samples are of the first one, no? And I welcome a singer.
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Hi Duke,
Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid you lost me a little on part of the technical explanation (tilting and shelving) but I think I caught the gist of it, to paraphrase:
Your speakers have been design to work with a wide verity of rooms and amplification systems. The speakers are also tunable via user adjustable features to better accommodate variance in acoustic space and amplification. Close?
Cheers,
Chris
PS I'm still hope to make it down your way latter this spring.
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Hey Russell:
Were you using the Oktava 012s at the guitar? Did you have them modded? Was it running into a ULN-8? :o
Now that's a ribbon sound I like. :wink:
Rocket_Ronny
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I have a pair of Zu speakers at 12 ohm impedance. Any benefit to using the Autoformers to double the 12 ohms to 24 ohms? What would a 24 ohm load do to the S-30 amplifier?
Estimating here, I'd say that the S-30 is a 35-watt amp into a 12-ohm load and a 45 or 50-watt amp into a 24 ohm load. That being said, my inclination would be to not purchase an autoformer unless you really think you need the extra power. Try it without first, and see. Thirty-something watts into 97 dB (or whatever) is an awful lot.
At RMAF 2007 I showed my 16-ohm, 94-dB ballpark Dream Makers driven by an S-30. Lynn Olsen, speaker guru dude, played his torture test classical CD at an estimated 110 dB peak at the listening position. The estimate is arrived at like this: He sets the level so that he can barely hear the tape hiss, and said that was probably 40 dB. The CD has 70 dB of dynamic range. Nothing blew up, and he said mine was the only system he tried that on at the show that didn't compress or distort. It was very loud. The numbers favor your Zus over my setup even without the autoformers.
Your speakers have been design to work with a wide verity of rooms and amplification systems. The speakers are also tunable via user adjustable features to better accommodate variance in acoustic space and amplification. Close?
Yup, you got it. Nice job of translation into English!
One more story I'd like to relate. I was talking with Ralph the other day and he described an incident from RMAF 2006. I had a now-discontinued speaker called the Stormbringer showing in a room with his S-30. Stormbringer was a chunky 93 dB, 8-ohm stand-mount with a 12" woofer, and I think I claimed extension to the mid-30s. But with the high output impedance of the S-30, the bass extended considerably deeper. Ralph and a reviewer were together in another room where a megabuck speaker failed to reproduce the 25 Hz note less than a minute into Peter Gabriel's soundtrack from "The Rabbit-Proof Fence". Ralph invited the reviewer into the room with the Stormbringers and S-30, and that note shook the room.
There aren't many "free lunches" in audio, but a high output impedance amp on a low-tuned vented box is one of them.
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Were you using the Oktava 012s at the guitar? Did you have them modded? Was it running into a ULN-8? :o
Now that's a ribbon sound I like. :wink:
Rocket_Ronny
Thanks, Rocket. I'll PM you to keep from derailing the topic.
You, too, Jim and thanks for your comments.
Russell
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Hey Russell, ya'll are more than welcome to have that conversation here. Others might be interested. I haven't had anything to add, as I've been busy doing other stuff, but don't leave on my account.
Duke
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At RMAF 2007 I showed my 16-ohm, 94-dB ballpark Dream Makers driven by an S-30. Lynn Olsen, speaker guru dude, played his torture test classical CD at an estimated 110 dB peak at the listening position.
That same year I walked in with my CD (can't remember which track I played) but also said I want to play it loud. You said "have fun". That moment still sticks in my head as it was insane how loud it would play without any hint of distortion. I never play music that loud but that speaker just wants it. It has such a happy factor it's crazy hard to explain unless you hear it for yourself. :drool:
Thanks!
His Royal Highness
Supreme Emperor and Dictator-For-Life
the One, the Only
Duke
(yes, this is what Duke wants to be called) I've NEVER forgotton!!!! :lol:
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Yes, I remember hearing them at RMAF too and was very impressed. I didn't know much at all about Atma-Sphere at that time but it was an amazing demo. The Dream Makers were quite appropriately named for sure.
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Hey Russell:
Were you using the Oktava 012s at the guitar? Did you have them modded? Was it running into a ULN-8? :o
Thanks, Duke!
I have already answered Ron and Jim, but for anyone who is interested - yes, the mics on the guitars were (self) modded Oktava 012s with the hypercardioid heads. I don't have and may never get the ULN-8, although if I had the money I would have one already (no-brainer!) and have sold my True Systems 8 channel mic preamp, since the ULN-8's pres are probably better, from what I've seen written. This was recorded into (and mixed in) my Metric Halo MIO 2882+DSP - a stunningly competent box, for those who don't know - the total center of my studio.
As to the sound, Jim, the Gareth Owen samples are from the first CD which we all liked at the time (Gareth wanted the guitar to sound as big as possible), but this time we opted for a more realistic, less "bottom-y" flamenco guitar sound, and to take some of the body out of the stage thump from the dancer's heals.
Having Ron and Jim's home emails addresses, I sent them a short clip of the new CD in mp3 form.
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Hey Duke:
Can you explain a bit more about the difference between the Atma 30 and 60 in terms of sound and the impedance thing.
Thanks.
Rocket_Ronny
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That same year I walked in with my CD (can't remember which track I played) but also said I want to play it loud. You said "have fun". That moment still sticks in my head as it was insane how loud it would play without any hint of distortion. I never play music that loud but that speaker just wants it. It has such a happy factor it's crazy hard to explain unless you hear it for yourself. :drool:
Thanks!
His Royal Highness
Supreme Emperor and Dictator-For-Life
the One, the Only
Duke
(yes, this is what Duke wants to be called) I've NEVER forgotton!!!! :lol:
Member Bill Berndt is a lucky Jazz Module owner. Last visit to his place he played an Ozzy Osbourne LP l-o-u-d. I worked at the Record Plant with 2x JBL 15s and a huge horn lens in each of four corners of a mid-size control room, biamped with a stereo Crown DC300 per corner. Sly Stone would walk in and just crank up the level as high as it would go without distorting (one of the nicest guys you'll meet...wonder how is ears are). I'd run from the control room.
Back to Berndt: Source was the custom TT he built with Empire motor/bearing/platter and the rest all new custom (63 lb brute), 200W Jolida Music Envoy monos with transmitter output tube. The level was beyond discerning the words of someone shouting next to you. We were about 10-12' away in a moderate sized living room. It was just a thick, creamy, visceral fog of sound which seemed to move all the exposed hairs on your body. It was as if the sound became a semi-solid. No audible distortion whatsoever, like the speakers were yawning and able to do it all day (that was one of the most remarkable items about the experience). We sat on the sofa looking at each other and back to the system in awe grinning. I can't say I own any music like that, but would consider buying such after that experience. It was crystal clean and much fun.
I looked at the mid-size floorstanders, thinking the output would require something 4ft wide and floor to ceiling. The mad scientist Dr. Frankenstein aspect to Duke's otherwise normal persona is on record (lucky us). :lol:
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James - the music on your website is outstanding and the Thorell guitars look absolutely beautiful! :thumb:
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Duke - any chance the Dreamakers are coming to LSAF with you? :drool:
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James - the music on your website is outstanding
I agree. Are these tracks available or simply from your own collection. As good as it sounds on a laptop, I can only imagine how it would sound on a system.
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Hey Duke:
Can you explain a bit more about the difference between the Atma 30 and 60 in terms of sound and the impedance thing.
Thanks.
Rocket_Ronny
I've only heard them side-by-side once, and it was on my Dream Makers. So power was not an issue - either one has plenty of juice. The M-60 sounded more refined, tighter control. It's not like you'd listen to the S-30 and go, "hmmm... not refined enough"; it's just in an A/B that's the impression I got.
Duke - any chance the Dreamakers are coming to LSAF with you? :drool:
Hi Arthur, I don't yet know what I'll be bringing to LSAF but it won't be the Dream Makers. They are heavy and a pain and I think well above the price range that LSAF is geared towards.
That being said, I have a Dream Maker style speaker that is a candidate for LSAF. Here's a picture:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=CloudChaserFront.jpg)
Sixteen ohms; 95 dB; bass extension to about 43 Hz with solid state and probably mid 30's with an S-30; $3900 a pair.
This speaker is called the Cloud Chaser, and I'll be starting a separate thread about it soon. More than likely either the Cloud Chasers or Rhythm Prisms (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78557.0) will be at Lone Star.
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I agree. Are these tracks available or simply from your own collection. As good as it sounds on a laptop, I can only imagine how it would sound on a system.
Well....I can find Frank Vignola, I just can't find the songs he is playing on James site... :(
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Hi Arthur, I don't yet know what I'll be bringing to LSAF but it won't be the Dream Makers.
:cry:
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Sorry about that, Arthur! But you would be able to get a pretty good idea of what to expect from the Cloud Chasers (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79325.0), assuming that's what I bring. The larger box of the Dream Makers gives them about 1/3 octave deeper extension. When I brought the Dream Makers to Lone Star in 2008, the biggest problem was too much bass in that small room. The round waveguide of the Dream Makers is a bit smoother, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how uncolored the rectangular waveguide horn is.
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A sincere thanks for the compliments about the site and the music therein. Sorry I won't have time to address the questions about the site's music jukebox till tomorrow; possibly the artist names were mixed up.
The live Frank Vignola Trio CD (2009, www.FrankVignola.com (http://www.FrankVignola.com), #FV9) was well worth the $25 I paid. Besides drawing you in to Frank's light and poignant touch on his Thorell FV arch top, the sound quality is very good. The occasional, involuntary, not-too-loud, "oooh", "ahhh", and "yes" from the audience intensify the live effect.
Hoping to have pictures posted shortly at my site of the Thorell arch top going to Tommy Emmanuel for his upcoming tour (at least one show with Vignola).
Sorry for OT; please return to your normal programming.
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Why design high efficiency speakers, and then drive them with an amp with a power consumption of 400 watts? :green:
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Hi Arthur, I don't yet know what I'll be bringing to LSAF but it won't be the Dream Makers. They are heavy and a pain and I think well above the price range that LSAF is geared towards.
But they do sound very good..... :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22016)
RMAF 2007...... :D
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Why design high efficiency speakers, and then drive them with an amp with a power consumption of 400 watts? :green:
Because that's how we kill two birds with one stone and heat our homes in winter?
Seriously, running an amplifier in Class A triode mode has definite benefits, but electrical efficiency is not one of them.
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But they do sound very good..... :thumb:
My speakers are always on their best behavior when honored with the presence of the Lonewolf.
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(http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=CloudChaserFront.jpg)
Duke's tidy "Cloud Chaser" pictured above has even more appeal in person. I had the pleasure of seeing (empty) enclosures about a month ago. The shape, finish, and proportions are pleasing and inviting. I love the Dream Maker, but its new, smaller, lower priced cousin with similar DNA rates higher in WAF and overall cosmetic appeal unless one prefers the beefier presence of the original. An AudioKinesis offset bipole for lower cost (IIRC) than the monopole Jazz Module seems like a good proposition. The multiple enclosure angles must add complexity and cost.
My cosmetic preference (CL vs. DM) would depend on the room volume. I've tired of oversize speaker/room matches. IIRC my favorite sound at 2009 CES (Duke did not display) was Allan Perkins' Immedia room with $2800/pr Anima standmounts by Sonics by Joachim Gerhard in one of the small Venetian Hotel rooms (his superior $25k TT obviously helped). I later learned Joachim makes a special $2500 deluxe XO upgrade, and wonder if it was installed in that system. Some single XO inductors cost multiple thousands USD but don't ask me why.
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I appreciate the feedback on the Atmas-sphere amps. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with their preamps and the optional built in phone stage? Specifically the MP-3 but any thoughts on their phono sections would be appreciated.
Also wondering if you can use an external phono stage with RCA rather than balanced (XLR) output with their amps?
I've checked the reviews but for some reason built in phono sections rarely get much copy.
Cheers,
Chris
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Met Ralph K. several years ago at a Minneapolis audio shop. Very, very nice guy.
But wanted to know if anyone at AC has had experience with the much smaller OTL amps from Transcendent Audio? I always thought they were the cheaper way to try out the topology.
Lyndon
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Because that's how we kill two birds with one stone and heat our homes in winter?
Seriously, running an amplifier in Class A triode mode has definite benefits, but electrical efficiency is not one of them.
Years ago I owned a pair of AtmaSphere M60 monos. Probably the best amp I have ever owned--along with some Class A SET, maybe. I sold them cause at the time I lived in a hot NYC apt and I just couldn't deal with the heat in the summer. But no doubt, great amps sonically. With the right speaker and robust A/C I would own them again. 8)
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I was wondering if anyone has had experience with their preamps and the optional built in phone stage? Specifically the MP-3 but any thoughts on their phono sections would be appreciated.
Also wondering if you can use an external phono stage with RCA rather than balanced (XLR) output with their amps?
In my experience there is a really, really sweet synergy between Atma-Sphere amps & preamps. I definitely recommend the regulated power supply upgrade for any MP-3. I don't have a turntable so can't comment on the phono stage based on ownership, but Ralph listens to vinyl all the time so that tells you where his priority lies. The Atma-Sphere preamps each have two tape loops, and the RCA inputs on the tape loops can be used as the inputs for anything that needs an RCA jack.
...experience with the much smaller OTL amps from Transcendent Audio? I always thought they were the cheaper way to try out the topology.
My understanding is that Transcendent Audio amps use considerably more global negative feedback than Atma-Sphere amps do (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), which implies that speaker matching would be less of an issue but then from a purist standpoint you'd be making a tradeoff.
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Years ago I owned a pair of AtmaSphere M60 monos. Probably the best amp I have ever owned--along with some Class A SET, maybe. I sold them cause at the time I lived in a hot NYC apt and I just couldn't deal with the heat in the summer. But no doubt, great amps sonically. With the right speaker and robust A/C I would own them again. 8)
John nailed the two "challenges" associated with the Atma-Sphere amps (neither of which have to do with sonics):
1. Heat produced - all Atma-Sphere amps run in pure Class A and they will raise the room temp (especially in the summer)
2. Electricity use - takes a lot of electricity to run all those tubes in pure Class A
If you can work around these two challenges, you will be rewarded in a big way.
George
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Thanks for the reply Duke.
I did find the following from a review in SoundStage. It is in reference to the MP1 but it does speak to the quality of the Atma-Sphere phono sections.
"Listening to the Audio Research PH7 connected to the Atma-Sphere line stage versus using the MP-1 Mk III’s native phono section, there were times when I had to double-check which one I was using. They each have their sonic traits, but differences are very subtle and not ones of fundamental character. The faintest of layers appeared when switching to the PH7 -- one more petticoat, one more mattress between the princess and her pea. Call it a thin brushing of warmth. I was equally impressed with each unit’s fine-spun delineation of pianissimo violins -- a high compliment to the MP-1 Mk III, as until hearing it, I’d heard no finer than the PH7 in this department. "
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/atmasphere_mp1iii.htm (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/atmasphere_mp1iii.htm)
And this from Enjoy the Music re MP3
"This excellent-sounding phono section adds just $550 to the price of a line-stage-only MP-3. I suspect it would be hard to find a separate phono stage near that price that would deliver the impressive combination of glorious dynamics, timbral fidelity, imaging precision and voluminous soundscaping that I heard from the MP-3 with record after record."
Cheers,
Chris
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In another thread I posted some comments Ralph Karsten made about one of my discontinued models, the stand-mount Stormbringer. He claims that, on the S-30, their bass extends quite deep - actually somewhat deeper than I would have expected. I think I claimed extension down into the upper 30's or lower 40's, and he claims the combination demonstrated extension into the upper 20's.
Here's (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79762.msg762486#msg762486) the link.
My point is, when the synergy is right between Atma-Sphere amp and speaker, there's a possible "free lunch" available in the low bass department. One could expect similar results from other amplifiers having a similarly high output impedance, but I think such amps are quite rare.
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Hi Duke,
First I apologize if my question will look rather stupid.
Don't have experience with OTL, alltough I read only good things about it.
I have Magnepan 20.1 speaker, with very low efficency. They are a rather simple( constant ) 4 Ohm load. Is there any chance or possibility to be driven by OTL. Maybe the lower end would still have to be on SS or you have any experience on that?
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Duke,
First I apologize if my question will look rather stupid.
Don't have experience with OTL, alltough I read only good things about it.
I have Magnepan 20.1 speaker, with very low efficency. They are a rather simple( constant ) 4 Ohm load. Is there any chance or possibility to be driven by OTL. Maybe the lower end would still have to be on SS or you have any experience on that?
Thanks in advance.
A large OTL like the Atma-Sphere MA-1 works fine on Maggies. Give Ralph Karsten a call and ask him, as my memory has grown foggy, but my recollection is that Wendell Diller made an amazingly favorable comment to him after hearing MA-1s driving Maggies.
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Thanks, I am a bit nervous to change from ss to all tube especially to otl.
Have also found a Graaf gm200 which could work fine, maybe a zero transformer would have to be the last step to make the perfect conditions...