BDP-2 Digital Player

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SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #240 on: 10 Feb 2013, 09:29 pm »
An internal drive will receive its power via the mainboard.

Cheers,
Chris

Thanks Chris.  What would be the advantages, if any, of independent power supply to the SATA SSD? Is this something you considered at all?


unincognito

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #241 on: 11 Feb 2013, 02:59 am »
Well I suppose we could have isolated the hard drives power supply to a linear one; however that would have increased the cost and the data from the drive would have been sent through the main board regardless.  In the end effectly undoing any potential advantages of the linear supply, not that I can think of any advantages as the data is stored digitally.

Cheers,
Chris

Napalm

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #242 on: 11 Feb 2013, 03:56 am »
At the BDP price point you can definitely have a boatload of power supplies inside, the problem is that eventually you'll have to connect them together. Which pretty much defeats the point of having so many.

Check this for starters:

http://e2e.ti.com/support/data_converters/precision_data_converters/w/design_notes/1390.aspx

it basically says that if you have a DAC or ADC in your design you're pretty much doomed.

For more fun google for "analog vs. digital ground" and check the PDF application notes from folks like Analog Devices & Texas Instruments.

Digital schmidgital.

 :lol:

SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #243 on: 11 Feb 2013, 09:06 am »
I need to do some reading and also understand better things like galvanic isolation.  My question was prompted by a post by Paul Hynes in his circle on this website.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104425.0

"I have been asked by a number of CAPS 2 audio server builders about providing a linear power supply option for the server.

This can easily be set up within the SR7EHD multi rail chassis to provide a 12v rail for the Jetway motherboard, a 12v rail for the SotM USB card, a rail for a SSD hard drive and a rail for an external hard drive for file storage. All the rails are galvanically isolated to avoid any ground loop interaction problems.

This Caps 2 linear supply will give first class performance as the linear voltage regulators use my best ultra low noise wide bandwidth regulator topology with each rail configured and optimised for the intended load."

My initial reaction was the same as Chris's but perhaps this is more complicated. Or marketing spiel!

Napalm, not sure I follow you given the BDP-2 is a pure digital device and the DAC is completely separate (in my case a Theta Casablanca III HD) but perhaps I need to do some reading first.

SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #244 on: 11 Feb 2013, 11:40 am »

Check this for starters:

http://e2e.ti.com/support/data_converters/precision_data_converters/w/design_notes/1390.aspx

it basically says that if you have a DAC or ADC in your design you're pretty much doomed.

For more fun google for "analog vs. digital ground" and check the PDF application notes from folks like Analog Devices & Texas Instruments.


Okay Napalm, I've done a bit of reading of the papers by  Analog Devices but it would seem to me to be more of an issue for the design of, in my case, the Casablanca III HD (which has both analogue and digital components) than a discussion of the BDP-2.  What am I missing?

wappinghigh

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #245 on: 11 Feb 2013, 11:48 am »
I'd also like DSD. And sure, the hardware inside this player might be capable of DSD, but I must admit what is the point of Bryston developing the software for DSD on this player?

It doesn't have any way I can tell of getting the native DSD signal *out* of the player as far as I can tell... There are no Analogs out.. (This is not a DAC folks..) Nor is there I2S or Asynch USB out.

So what's the proposed output? Via the spdif port?.. I didn't know Digital coax could actually transmit DSD. Same with the XLR output port...
And even if Brston could get DSD transmission out via these ports, what DAC with these inputs does everyone intend to plug the BDP-2 into to play these DSD files?

Am I missing something here..? Please enlighten me. Cheers.

Napalm

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #246 on: 11 Feb 2013, 01:38 pm »
Okay Napalm, I've done a bit of reading of the papers by  Analog Devices but it would seem to me to be more of an issue for the design of, in my case, the Casablanca III HD (which has both analogue and digital components) than a discussion of the BDP-2.  What am I missing?

Your observation is correct up to the point that eventually you'll have to connect the BDP to some other box containing a DAC.

What you should note is that:

- digital circuits work by switching; this is what produces signals of extremely large bandwidth, up to RF domain

- once you got into RF noise, and its wavelength is comparable to the length of the conductors/traces on your PCB, it will happily propagate inside your box as EMI without any need for galvanic connections

- the RF noise is proportional to the power drawn by the digital component producing it (you have to check the power consumption of that SSD drive to understand how much noise it could make)

- digital circuits by themselves are pretty tolerant to the above noise

- in a pure digital box you can easily get away with just one power supply and local decoupling / good PCB design no need for multiple sources

- the largest amount of noise is usually generated by the digital components not by the power supply itself (even if it's of the switching type)

- you get into trouble when you need to connect the digital circuit to an analog one

- if you have a DAC / ADC you are forced to have some kind of galvanic connection between the digital part and the analog one (as mentioned by TI note) (remember that a DAC is also a digital component that does a pretty good amount of switching inside the case)






SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #247 on: 11 Feb 2013, 02:02 pm »
Your observation is correct up to the point that eventually you'll have to connect the BDP to some other box containing a DAC.

- if you have a DAC / ADC you are forced to have some kind of galvanic connection between the digital part and the analog one (as mentioned by TI note) (remember that a DAC is also a digital component that does a pretty good amount of switching inside the case)

Then I am confused as to the focus on galvanic isolation in the other thread (BDP-2 - no sound card). People seem very concerned with USB connections, for example, because galvanic isolation is not achieved and quick to highlight that galvanic isolation is implemented with SPDIF/AES-EBU.

- the largest amount of noise is usually generated by the digital components not by the power supply itself (even if it's of the switching type)

I have asked Paul Hynes as to why he there is so much focus on splitting the rails in the PSU versus focusing, for example, on the clock on the motherboard.  Of course, he is in the business of selling PS rails and this is why I mentioned "marketing spiel" above.

BTW if this is going too off-topic for this thread I would happily receive notes by PM as this is an area I would like to understand much better (including what really are the advantages of linear power supplies in a fully digital device).

Napalm

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #248 on: 11 Feb 2013, 02:24 pm »
Then I am confused as to the focus on galvanic isolation in the other thread (BDP-2 - no sound card). People seem very concerned with USB connections, for example, because galvanic isolation is not achieved and quick to highlight that galvanic isolation is implemented with SPDIF/AES-EBU.

I have asked Paul Hynes as to why he there is so much focus on splitting the rails in the PSU versus focusing, for example, on the clock on the motherboard.  Of course, he is in the business of selling PS rails and this is why I mentioned "marketing spiel" above.

BTW if this is going too off-topic for this thread I would happily receive notes by PM as this is an area I would like to understand much better (including what really are the advantages of linear power supplies in a fully digital device).

The designer of an audio component is pretty much in control of the noise inside his box, but cannot control what a PC computer would present on its USB port. The PC designer is only concerned to meet USB specs i.e. make his thing able to digitally talk to another certified USB device. Analog / audio issues are very low on his priorities list.

Isolation between the audio box and the PC is also desirable from a ground loop perspective especially the kind that fries components. Laptops normally have an isolated power supply (or you can run them on batteries just to make sure), but every desktop system I've seen connects chassis to safety (earth) ground either directly or through some capacitors. Taking into account that many audio component manufacturers follow the same practice, this is a recipe for disaster.

SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #249 on: 11 Feb 2013, 02:51 pm »
Perhaps my mention of USB is a bit of a red-herring.  The BDP is a computer with a better PSU and nice (half of a) sound card. Yet galvanic isolation is a focus for this also for SPDIF and AES/EBU.

So on one level we want complete isolation and on the other we want the digital and analogue on the same ground plane? 

Never the twain shall meet?

In summary, though, it seems like Paul is talking up his sales...?  It will be interesting to hear when and if he responds to my email.

Napalm

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #250 on: 11 Feb 2013, 03:40 pm »

So on one level we want complete isolation and on the other we want the digital and analogue on the same ground plane? 


We don't *want* them on the same ground plane. We're forced to have them like that.

As for power supply "upgrades". If the equipment doesn't come from factory with an adequate power supply then it's probably inadequate in some other areas too. I'd skip buying it altogether.

My fav DIY upgrade proposition that I keep seeing in various forums is the direct replacement of a linear standard regulator (say a LM7812) with an LDO "equivalent" "because it has better specs" (and the poster quotes some from the data sheet, usually line regulation, load regulation, output noise voltage and ripple rejection, "demonstrating" thus that the proposed alternative is vastly superior).

What the proponents of such replacements fail to mention is that an LDO can and will oscillate if the decoupling capacitors are mismatched. If you see such propositions, skip them unless you either a) have an oscilloscope and are willing to experiment with various capacitor makes; or b) the proponent is really serious, has already done the experimenting and is quoting the mfg part numbers of the capacitors that will work in that application.


SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #251 on: 11 Feb 2013, 04:17 pm »
Well remember this digression stemmed from my question as to what Bryston had implemented, versus claims from well-recognised suppliers of LPSUs to people building their own versions.  I'm not looking to "upgrade" a Bryston BDP-2!  I'm just trying to understand if this is a design compromise or simply a situation where nothing is gained from it and hence it's completely unnecessary. Thanks for the help.  Very much appreciated.

(In event, it would seem the challenges you highlight would exist for both single-rail PSU to MB and multi-rail PSUs supplying MB, SATA etc)

Napalm

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #252 on: 11 Feb 2013, 05:19 pm »
Well speaking strictly of the BDP and its power rails noise you have to look at:

- how much noise it will inject into the next audio box that's connected to it via a signal cable; if the next box is digital only (say a sound processor) then you can afford quite a lot of noise up to the point where you get errors in the digital transmission or generate malfunctions in the receiving box; if the next box is mixed signal (digital+analog).... then the can of worms is opened;

- "hidden" mixed signal components inside the BDP itself; like a clock based on a Voltage Controlled Oscillator where noise on the rails and especially the control input could create clock jitter;

SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #253 on: 11 Feb 2013, 06:09 pm »
My next box is a Theta Casablanca III HD, a surround processor and DAC.

On your second point, I have indeed wondered if Bryston have ever evaluated upgrading the clocks on the motherboard.

http://pcaudio.tistory.com/375

SGK

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #254 on: 11 Feb 2013, 06:15 pm »

It doesn't have any way I can tell of getting the native DSD signal *out* of the player as far as I can tell...

Nor are there legal ways for you to get much of the desirable content *in* there!

Samurai7595

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #255 on: 11 Feb 2013, 11:41 pm »
I received my Bryston BDP-2 digital player today :D and I would like to install an SSD drive inside the unit.

I noticed that at the back of the unit, there is a small rear cover with 2 screws (left side, if facing the back of the unit).  Is this where I install the SSD drive or do I need to remove the top cover?

If it's via the top cover, then what is that small rear cover for?

By the way, once I install the SSD drive, how do I format it (if I need to) and what are the procedures for copying music to it?

 

James Tanner

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #256 on: 11 Feb 2013, 11:47 pm »
I received my Bryston BDP-2 digital player today :D and I would like to install an SSD drive inside the unit.

I noticed that at the back of the unit, there is a small rear cover with 2 screws (left side, if facing the back of the unit).  Is this where I install the SSD drive or do I need to remove the top cover?

If it's via the top cover, then what is that small rear cover for?

By the way, once I install the SSD drive, how do I format it (if I need to) and what are the procedures for copying music to it?

You have to remove the top the rear cover is for future updates.

You have to format the drive (fat 32 or NTSF) and transfer your music files to it before you install it in the BDP2

James

Samurai7595

Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #257 on: 11 Feb 2013, 11:57 pm »
You have to remove the top the rear cover is for future updates.

You have to format the drive (fat 32 or NTSF) and transfer your music files to it before you install it in the BDP2

James

Great, thanks James!

By the way, it's one beautiful & heavy digital player!   :thumb:

unincognito

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #258 on: 12 Feb 2013, 03:21 am »
I'd also like DSD. And sure, the hardware inside this player might be capable of DSD, but I must admit what is the point of Bryston developing the software for DSD on this player?

It doesn't have any way I can tell of getting the native DSD signal *out* of the player as far as I can tell... There are no Analogs out.. (This is not a DAC folks..) Nor is there I2S or Asynch USB out.

So what's the proposed output? Via the spdif port?.. I didn't know Digital coax could actually transmit DSD. Same with the XLR output port...
And even if Brston could get DSD transmission out via these ports, what DAC with these inputs does everyone intend to plug the BDP-2 into to play these DSD files?

Am I missing something here..? Please enlighten me. Cheers.

We can output DSD via the USB ports on the back of the BDP and another one of our more senior engineers, Dan is working on givin the BDA-2 async DSD USB in via a software update for the BDA-2.  Also due to the hype of DSD a protocol has been developed to wrap PCM around DSD so that PCM devices can play DSD files. The thin I don't get it where do you get DSD files from (besides SACD a format that never took off)? 

Cheers,
Chris

SHV

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Re: BDP-2 Digital Player
« Reply #259 on: 12 Feb 2013, 03:50 am »
"The thin I don't get it where do you get DSD files from (besides SACD a format that never took off)? "
********
One source:
http://www.channelclassics.com/dsd.html

Steve