Need help setting up my new ST

cnm_mike · « **on:** 24 Feb 2009, 06:31 pm »

Just received my ST yesterday and I need your help with speaker placement. I may have an impossible task, but I thought I would ask the wisdom of this group.

I currently have the speakers placed 9.5 apart, 14.5 inches from the front wall and toed in by 1.5 inches. My room is pretty bass shy so I have moved the speakers closer to the wall than the recommended 18 inches Side walls are not an issue as I am in a 25x25 room. My sitting area consists of two lazyboys separated by a table. Our two heads are spaced about 5 feet apart. Our listening area is about 13.5 ft from the front of the speakers.

I have tried widening and narrowing the space between the speakers and have played with the toe-in but I can’t seem to get a vocalist to appear between the speakers. They always seem to come from two sound sources.

Seeing that I want to have a “sweet spot” that is 5.5 wide (so the wife and I can have equal pleasure) how do I go about setting up the speakers.

Thanks for your help,
Mike

DMurphy · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 06:43 pm »

Hmmmm. Have you tried listening exactly in the center, say standing behind the table? Is the soundstage centered then? If not, are you sure you have those puppies wired in phase? Does the bass sound full? Considering how far back you're sitting, it should be possible to get at least a somewhat centered presentation to either side of the table.

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 06:54 pm »

Hmm, the placement is very similar to mine, although my room is 23x16. I have perfect voice localization in the centre of the soundstage, but the width of the "sweet spot" on my coach is about 3 feet. As far as I know it is considered rather wide.

adydula · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 07:16 pm »

Hello,

I have had mine for a a few days now and went thru the toe-in dance, and found that it was very much sensitive to me in my room...I kept moving the two in by 1/2 increments measuered from the side wall to the from edge of the speaker....and make sure both are the same distances from the rear wall, I guessed at first and was off 2 inches!!

I set the tow in to an imaginary point just behind the listening positon, this is where you see both speakers point directly at you, this is according to Jims instruction sheets as well.

Then I sit in my chair's, two recliners, similar to yours...and I found 1/2 inch changed the illusion and either made it great or not so great.....

So when your in your chairs, the speakers are pointing to the spot in back of you..just a bit.

What music / track are u using?

Most recordings that I have listened to with the single or solo voice ( you can read my glowing reports) have been very, very good and in the middle....some are off to a side

Dennis question about polarity / phasing of the speaker wires is also something to check, are you bi-wiring?

Also are you listening to 2 ch audio / sterero or using a receiver and are you in one of the alternate DSP modes?

All the best
Alex

Nuance · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 07:28 pm »

Lots of great questions have been asked; all imperative to being able to help.

When you say you aren't getting the vocals to appear in the center, you are sitting in the center, right? If you are sitting off to the sides of the speakers, the center image will shift, thus the vocals won't sound as if they are coming from the center.

Also, you do have the receiver or preamp set to stereo and 2-channel, correct? Mono won't allow that centered vocal presentation because...well, it's mono.

Try sitting in the "sweet spot," centered exactly between the speakers with the toe-in of the speakers in such a way that the axis of the speakers come to a point just behind your head (as adydula suggested). From that point, experiment with toe-in to get the desired sound stage width and pinpoint imaging you prefer. The more toe-in, the more precise the imaging should be. The less toe-in, the larger the sound stage should be. Try to find a happy medium for both.

cnm_mike · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 08:03 pm »

The speakers are hooked up in the correct phase and I am listening in stereo. I guess what I am asking is what are the tricks for getting the widest sweet spot because I cannot sit in the center. Nuance mentioned a few. Should I try to get the speakers as wide as possible? How do I know when they are two far apart?

I got my laser level out to make sure each speaker is toed in to the same spot. I am aiming for a spot that is 3ft behind the table that is in between the chairs. I just haven't heard the magic as of yet.

thanks,
Mike

cnm_mike · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 08:58 pm »

I'm pushing the ST with an Emotiva XPA3 and using an HK AR80 as a preamp until the UMC1 comes out. I am using a Panasonic 35 BluRay as a CD player. I replaced a set of KEF 104ab.

At first I thought it might be the preamp and I got out my old Hafler DH101. Changing the preamp has not helped. I am using a mixture of my music and the excellent CD that Jim sends along with the ST to help with placement. I hear moments of greatness, so I hope it's a mater of tweaking in the placement.

MaxCast · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 09:01 pm »

When my speakers are too far apart I get an unreal left/right stereo image. Like the musicians have moved off the stage. It is distracting. That is when I feel I've placed them too wide. Hope that helps.

How wide have you tried them? Many mfgs recommend an equilateral triangle. Have you had them 13-14 feet apart? or wider? then try toe in/out.

Nuance · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 09:36 pm »

Quote from: cnm_mike on 24 Feb 2009, 08:03 pm

The speakers are hooked up in the correct phase and I am listening in stereo. I guess what I am asking is what are the tricks for getting the widest sweet spot because I cannot sit in the center. Nuance mentioned a few. Should I try to get the speakers as wide as possible? How do I know when they are two far apart?

I got my laser level out to make sure each speaker is toed in to the same spot. I am aiming for a spot that is 3ft behind the table that is in between the chairs. I just haven't heard the magic as of yet.

thanks,
Mike

I just noticed you have the speakers closer together than they are from the listening position. Try the equilateral triangle method and move them as far apart as you are from each one of them if you'd sit dead center between them. Does that make sense?

Edit: I see maccast already recommended this.

Honestly, I think the issue is that you aren't sitting dead center. The image will always shift if you sit off-axis. To get the full experience I highly recommend moving the furniture around so you can sit dead center. Also, keep experimenting with toe-in and speaker placement. I know you want more bass so you've moved the speakers closer to the back wall, but try moving them closer to you and see what it does for imaging and sound staging.

Just so you know, the ideal location in a room for a wide soundstage and pinpoint imaging is usually not the same location for ideal bass response. Perhaps you will get lucky and find a good place for all of the above, but it's likely you won't and will have to chose one (or two) over the others. Finally, you can always cross over to a subwoofer to give you more low end grunt; something I wouldn't hesitate doing if you find the ideal spot for sound staging and imaging but still aren't thrilled with the in-room bass response.

Hope that helps. Best wishes to you.

P.S. Make sure your speaker wires aren't corroded. This will ruin the resistance and really limit what the speakers can do. I had to learn this the hard way once. If they are corroded, snip off the corroded parts and reconnect them to your banana/spade plugs and hook them up again.

fishinbob · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 09:44 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 24 Feb 2009, 07:28 pm

Analog won't allow that centered vocal presentation because...well, it's analog.

what?

fishinbob · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 09:56 pm »

cnm_mike
My experience was similar. The solution for me was to move my RTs closer together. I used some solo piano for imaging adjustments. I listen at ~11 feet with the Songs spread at 7 foot ctr to ctr. I'm using about 10 degrees of toe in but I'd be hesitant to say the sweet spot is any more than 3 foot wide.

cnm_mike · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 10:13 pm »

I've spread the speakers out to 11ft and brought them back into the room to 18 inches and they sound better. I never have been happy with the bass in this room. Since we moved into this house (6 years ago) I have thought about building a subwoofer. I told myself to wait until I bought a new pair of speakers because you never know. I've given up on the bass and am concentrating on getting everything else to sound right.
thx,
Mike

adydula · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 10:25 pm »

You will know when the speakers are too far apart when the the is a distinct 'hole in the middle'.....this is pretty drastic, others refer to this when the piano sounds 20 feet wide...if you can find a friends setup that sounds good ie the soundstage is one that allows you to pick out instruments in certain positions...and is well balanced with a known recording that is well mic'd, mixed and mastered...then you can go back and play with your stetup.

I think Nuance maybe correct in not being able to sit in the middle or sweet spot...if your trying to set up a sweet spot off center this is not a great situation.

All the best
Alex

Philistine · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 10:47 pm »

http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf

Try the above resource, may or may not help.

Nuance · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 11:35 pm »

Quote from: fishinbob on 24 Feb 2009, 09:44 pm

what?

I meant mono. Did someone spike my drink?

I guess I have mono on the brain today...hope I am not coming down with a case. haha. Thanks for pointing out my booboo, Bob. I corrected it.

Nuance · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 11:38 pm »

Quote from: cnm_mike on 24 Feb 2009, 10:13 pm

I've spread the speakers out to 11ft and brought them back into the room to 18 inches and they sound better. I never have been happy with the bass in this room. Since we moved into this house (6 years ago) I have thought about building a subwoofer. I told myself to wait until I bought a new pair of speakers because you never know. I've given up on the bass and am concentrating on getting everything else to sound right.
thx,
Mike

That's a great idea sir! I am happy to hear that moving them around has helped.

If you are looking for a DIY subwoofer that has already been built, shoot me a PM.

fishinbob · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 12:02 am »

Are your speakers centered in the 25 foot dimension. From what little I know about acoustics your 25ft square room is one strike against you. Possibly part of the bass issue too. Do some research, you might be better off with the system positioned to one side or the other if possible.

Good luck.
Bob

adydula · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 01:28 am »

Bob,

I agree with your post 110%. My M1 Mirages worked better in a rectangular room at one end of the longer side.

Alex

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 01:56 am »

cnm-mike,
I basically second Nuance, but to make it quick--

get rid of the table between the chairs!

after all it is not a bad thing to sit closer to your other half!

Art

Gord_Toronto · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 02:57 am »

Quote from: fishinbob on 25 Feb 2009, 12:02 am

Are your speakers centered in the 25 foot dimension. From what little I know about acoustics your 25ft square room is one strike against you. Possibly part of the bass issue too. Do some research, you might be better off with the system positioned to one side or the other if possible.

Good luck.
Bob

I've always heard the square rooms are to be shunned like the plague

Gord