AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Aspen Amplifiers => Topic started by: RonR on 14 Aug 2009, 03:23 pm
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After several false starts, I've finally got around to starting my Vsonics build.
For those who are interested, I'll keep a record of progress in this album: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2123 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2123)
The outer panels are 19mm Marine plywood with MDF internal baffles, externally they will be covered in white oak veneer.
I've departed from Hugh's construction details slightly by having a top-to-bottom front baffle to please SWMBO, but the all-important internal dimensions are as designed by Laurie. Biscuit joints are used throughout for strength and to keep panels lined up whilst the glue is curing.
I can't wait to hear them, but there's a long way to go yet:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21163)
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Hi Ron,
Truly magnificent build quality, congratulations! These look absolutely lovely......
We will be very interested to hear your views of the sound quality, Ron!
Not long now, perhaps a couple of weeks?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
A couple of weeks may be a bit optimistic what with work commitments at weekends and a car to fix, but I'll get a few days TOIL soon, so I can hopefully get on with it then.
Meanwhile, here's the latest pic with veneered fronts and driver holes cut out:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21242)
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I had the day off today, and fixed the baffles into the cabinets:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21311)
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Ron
Looking very nice, now if only I had the space time and money to get back into Audio.
I'm coming up to my "W" day and bought a Mazda MX-5 Mk1 on a whim so am strapped for cash, plus for some reason the AKSA is in the cupboard and I'm using a Denon AVR for noise atm :cry: I have no idea why I did this......
Nick.
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Very nice Ron :thumb:
I had been thinking about biscuit joints, but didn't want to have to get into the veneering business. Opted for Baltic birch ply and box joints with a 15 degree bevel on the corners. Interior panels of mdf of course. It'll do for now I guess. I'll probably have another go at cabinets at some point. I like your treatment of the port- a cabinet maker's nightmare from a design point of view.
The port bottoms will slide into the slots in bottom. A small trim piece will finish out the bottom front of the cabinet. The void underneath will be filled with a slab of 1 in mdf and the whole screwed to a black mdf plinth a bit larger than the speaker foot print all the way 'round. Those are Cardas "patented" binding posts. Quit a bargain for Cardas and high end posts in general.
My build stalled this summer, as we finally got a proposal funded and I have been spending a lot of time in the field. Hugh must be ready to disown me :bawl: Now off on vacation to the beautiful rocky Maine coast for two weeks. Can't wait to plunge into that cold water! If all goes well, My Vsonics will be well into break in by the end of September.
Cheers,
John
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21335)
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Hello again Nick,
Interesting choice of wheels you have there. Mazda vehemently deny it, but the rest of the world thinks that the MX5 (Miata) is a modern interpretation / shameless copy of the 1960's Lotus Elan, and all the better for it!
I'm a hopeless case I'm afraid, when the Audiophilia Nervosa subsides enough I get taken over by Automobilia Nervosa, and disappear into the garage with my Imperial Toolbox for some serious Elan tinkering.
BTW you really need to get that AKSA 55 out of the cupboard and playing tunes again!
All the best for the "W"
Cheers,
Ron.
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Hi John,
Those cabinets look excellent to me. Your construction must be spot-on if the Plywood is exposed, at least I get to cover my mistakes with veneer! The front baffle was the key to my build, because it's dimensions change depending on the thickness of the Plywood used if internal dimensions are to be kept accurate.
I also had the thought of making some kind of plinth, also in black, but I may just decide to go for 3 spikes per cabinet instead. The Soundcare ones look good: http://www.superspikes.com (http://www.superspikes.com)
The veneering isn't really that difficult to do. I use an 8' x 4' x 0.6mm veneer and sheets of iron-on glue. The Veneer is thin enough to cut with scissors, and edge trimming is done with a router and trimming blade.
Have a good holiday, and come back refreshed and raring to finish off those cabinets!
Cheers,
Ron.
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Nick,
Ron is on the money, this is an Elan if ever I saw one...... Tinker (aka Ben Williams, designer of the GK1 control system) has one and has changed the diff ratio for lower gearing, and the induction system for better breathing at lower speeds. Results are stunning, it's a lovely car. However, I have some difficulty fitting my more remote bits into such a tiny space, my motorcycle has more room to be frank. But oh, the handling, it's spectacular, and with your butt so close to the ground the perception of speed is almost feral.
I trust your big W goes well, but believe it, if it doesn't, and there are many variables such as weather, inlaws/outlaws, etc, I'm sure the marriage will!!
John,
High praise from Ron, who has also built sensational VSonics cabinets. I congratulate you on a beautiful build, thoughtful, precise, and well finished. And no, I realise that people are busy in their lives, and I look forward to resuming our chat when you have the time, so enjoy that freezing water off the coast of Maine!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Ron,
that's an awesome looking veneer job. I've been too afraid to try it myself - it seems messy and hard. If you don't mind sharing your secret, would you mind telling me what method you used? Iron on or vacuum press or something else?
Ben.
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Hi Ben,
The secret's in the glue - Sheet glue. You just cut a piece to fit the veneer, sandwich it between the work piece and veneer, and Iron. The glue sheet melts and then solidifies as it cools.
It's best to quickly clamp a piece of mdf over the veneer while it cools to stop it lifting.
Job done.
I'm not sure if it's widely available, but here's a link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rhino-Sheet-Glue-Film-Adhesive-Sold-Per-metre_W0QQitemZ290279580333QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Crafts_Cardmaking_Scrapbooking_Glue_Tape_EH?hash=item439602e2ad&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262) to some on Epay
Cheers,
Ron
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Hi All,
I have used adhesive film (similar to plastic lunch wrap) to glue wood veneer to MDF etc. This is the easiest way to glue a wood veneer to MDF, chipboard, plastics and even suitably prepared steel and aluminium. I have used products commercially from www.dryfilmadhesives.com in the US. Look up wood veneer adhesives and you will find hundres of suppliers and even more types of veneer adhesives. You can buy wood veneer with heat glue applied but then you can't always line up the grain as you like.
I prefer using a film adhesive because you can cover up any woodworking indiscresions particularly when building prototype speakers. Some speakers are screwed together and the screw head holes are filled with a polyester 2 pack woodworking filler which is easily sanded to give a blemish free surface to laminate over.
The general procedure of applying the veneer is:-
1. Clean the surface thoroughly then cut the adhesive film oversize so it over hangs about 2" all round the job. Place the veneer in place. It doesn't matter that the veneer is over size too as it will shrink slightly when heated.
2. Nick the cloths iron from the missus and set it to the appropriate heat. Use the highest temperature that does not show heat marks (scorch marks) on the veneer after say 20 seconds without moving the iron. First do a trial on some scrap to get the correct heat setting. When satisfied that the bond is good rub the iron with presure slowly over an area about the size of an A4 sheet of paper. Immediately apply pressure for about 30 seconds by rubbing over the area with a rag sufficiently thick so you will not get burned. Repeat the process untill finished. If you are unlucky enough to find blisters just make a pin hole in the blister to let the air out then re heat and apply pressure till cool.
3. Use about 60 grit sandpaper on a sanding block held at about a 45 degree angle to lightly sand any over hanging veneer so that it becomes paper thin then roll sand it flat over to the other surface and sand off smooth with about 300 to 400 grit paper.
4. If you have glue all over the sole plate of the iron, buy the wife a new one. No clean up job will ever be good enough.
Have Fun,
Laurie
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Thanks for all the wedding wishes, it should be interesting, we decided to have the wedding in October to pretty much guarantee poor weather :thumb:, thats one variable sorted. In-laws on the other hand :duh:
I agree that the MX-5 is a shameless Elan copy/clone, frankly I'd have one if the money was there along with Dodge Charger in full General Lee livery! :icon_twisted: :drool:
As it is I love my car even with the work she needs. Hugh I cant agree with you about the space available, I fit in so its more than enough, dont bother with luggage, just buy new clothes and keep driving.
Some sticky round bits and laser alignment to come as shes a bit twichy...
Minor on topic comment: I tried the veneer with my Rythmik sub, I've no tools as such and I built it in the lounge but I found it pretty eeasy to work with, even lining up the narrow sheets I bought.
now back to your regular programming.......
Nick
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Thanks for the tips!
I've seen the preglued stuff but the nicer timbers are a bit sketchy because they are usually cobbled together out of smaller strips (I suppose this keeps the price down). There is a good local supplier of veneer round our way but the magic glues sheets seem to be hard to find. Now I know what to look for I'll go searching for these glue sheets. I'll post back if I find a source in Oz.
Thanks again.
Ben.
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Hi Ben,
There are a few adhesive film suppliers in Melbourne which I have used from time to time. Another product that is as good as adhesive film is heat web adhesive. I have used an number of suppliers in Melbourne for both adhesive film and heat web and timber veneers. Sometimes you might have to wait a few days to get the type of timber veneer you want.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Latest on the Vsonics build:
Nearly there!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22549)
Just need to veneer the tops (ran out of sheet glue), wire up the drivers and binding posts, a coat or two of oil or varnish, and fix the cabinet bases on.
Cheers,
Ron
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GO RON!!! :drool: :green: :thumb:
Hugh
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Nice looking speaker.. :drool:
Your hard work will pay off nicely with good sound. Well, I pay a short visit to Hugh's DIY treasure palace and had a little listen to the Vsonic. Surprise to find its off axis respond is as good as some 5". Music is full of life & details. The integration between the tweeter and midbass is superb. One thing I find is the high need a bit of getting used to, mainly because I am used to the mellow sound of OW1.
:thumb:
Sam
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Great work Ron! :thumb:.
You are only a few days away from aural bliss.
Laurie
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HI Ron,
Are you in aural bliss yet? Inquiring minds yadda yadda........ :drool:
Hugh
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Are you in aural bliss yet? Inquiring minds yadda yadda........ :drool:
Hi Ron,
Any progress?
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
I still have some cosmetics to complete but as of yesterday, the Vsonics are playing music! :guitar:
First impressions are of tonal and spacial accuracy throughout the frequency range. There's real punch when called for in the bass, but it's tuneful as well. The sound stage is definitely a plus-point. :thumb:
More later, I have some cabinet finishing to do.....
Cheers,
Ron.
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Ron,
This is great news!! Do please put up a few more photos, and let us know your thoughts - congratulations on finishing them, it's a decent project, and you've achieved the goal! 8)
Cheers,
Hugh
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Lotus Elan - Off topic.
Way back when Adelaide hosted the F1 Grand Prix a friends wife was one of the hostesses responsible for getting teams to functions etc. She actually drove Colin Chapman (chairman of Lotus) between functions in her hubbies Elan. Colin expressed amazement that everything electrical in the Elan worked reliably (something which is uncommon in Elans). She had to confess that hubby had crashed the Elan into a cliff sometime before and burned out the electrical loom. Subsequently her hubbies friend, Ginger, had rewired the entire electrical system from scratch, pretty much ignoring the original wiring methods and circuits. I used a loom and fold down fuse box from a Mitsubishi Gallant (original Lotus had 2 fuses for the entire vehicle) and took the opportunity to fit a Lucas breakerless ignition system at the same time so we were'nt forever burning our arms as we reached down between the extractors to access the distributor to set the timing. Why was the new wiring system so much more reliable? The Lotus is a fibreglass body with a tiny subchassis. I simply ran power plus earth return to everything instead of trying to rely on returns via that sub chassis. All earth returns to a common earth bolt back in the engine bay. In audio amp terms that means I "Star Earth" wired it.
Cheers,
Ian (Ginger)
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Ginger,
What a great story!! I can't remember how many times I fitted electronic ignitions to points distributors, they work so much better, and have transformed car maintenance.
I loved the Elan, hated the electrical system!! But all Pommy cars were like that, Joe Lucas, Prince of Darkness.....
Ron,
Hows the VSonics? Pleased with them?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Oi, Ron We recon that you must be transfixed with the music machine. C'mon take a break and let us know how you are finding the VSonics.
Cheers,
laurie
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Transfiguration of the Night, Ron?
:lol:
Hugh
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Gentlemen,
Sorry for not responding earlier, but I've been snowed under with that 4-letter word "work", spending many evenings and weekends there lately. Playtime was suspended while project deadlines loomed!
The Vsonics are sounding great at the moment, though I may have overdamped the lower chamber by completely lining it in 1mm felt. The bass is certainly there, but it's not as visceral as before. When I'm sure the drivers are mechanically run in, I'll remove the felt piece by piece until it's right.
Things haven't been helped by an "upgrade" I performed a few weeks ago, replacing Opamps in my DAC with the latest and greatest. The first one I did made a good improvement, but the second resulted in sibilance. Needless to say, I couldn't re-install the old one again, as the leads were snipped to get it out. I'm just waiting for a new (old) one to arrive, then normal service can be resumed.
Ginger, that Elan must have been one-of-a-kind, I don't think I've ever seen one where everything works, even newly restored they have their quirks. It's good to know "The Old Man" as Colin was known actually saw one Elan where the electrics worked properly!
Lotus did a fantastic job on suspension, brakes, steering, roadholding, etc, but electrics were the weak point, as with many Fibreglass cars. The earthing is definitely the key. In addition to using the Chassis as earth, connecting at points that were prone to rust, Lotus used loads of "Bullet" connectors in the earth leads which weren't sealed against the elements, with the resulting "Bad Earth" problems becoming all too familiar in the soggy climate here.
I intend to do something like you did, by using a 15-fuse box and proper sealed earth connections throughout the loom. Given your experience, I think I'll also run a length of thick cable from engine bay to the rear electrics rather than relying on the Chassis earthing.
Cheers,
Ron.
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Gentlemen,
Things haven't been helped by an "upgrade" I performed a few weeks ago, replacing Opamps in my DAC with the latest and greatest. The first one I did made a good improvement, but the second resulted in sibilance. Needless to say, I couldn't re-install the old one again, as the leads were snipped to get it out. I'm just waiting for a new (old) one to arrive, then normal service can be resumed.
Cheers,
Ron.
Hello Ron
Which Opamps did you used in the first and the second upgrade ?
Thank
Bye
Gaetan
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Hi Gaetan,
Slightly off-topic but....
I have a Musical Fidelity DAC which had MC33079P Quad Opamp as the IV, and NE5532AN converting the Balanced IV outputs to single-ended.
I replaced the NE5532 with a metal-cased LME49720HA to great effect.
Replacing the MC33079 with 2 x LME49720HA was a step too far. :duh:
The LME49720 bandwidth is 55Mhz, with Slew rate of 20V/uS,
the MC33079 bandwidth is 16Mhz, with slew rate of 7V/uS.
Either the IV stage is letting through loads of cr*p from the DAC chip, or it's oscillating.
Cheers,
Ron.
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The Vsonics are sounding great at the moment, though I may have overdamped the lower chamber by completely lining it in 1mm felt. The bass is certainly there, but it's not as visceral as before. When I'm sure the drivers are mechanically run in, I'll remove the felt piece by piece until it's right.
Congratulations Ron :thumb:
Hope you have your gear sorted out and the Vsonics nicely tuned and broken in.
At last word, no carpeting is suggested in the lower vent chamber, but a thicker bottom panel may be beneficial. This can be easily accomplished with the addition of a plinth. I plan to make this slightly oversized in order to improve stability and lend a more traditional and pleasing silhouette (to my eye).
I'm curious about how you deployed the batting. I assume the woofer sheet just arcs around the back of the chamber behind the woofer, as it appears to do in your photos. Did you use all the remaining material behind the tweeters, just wadded up loosely throughout the space or something?
One last question, if you don't mind. Did you use a gasket or sealant on the tweeter flange? I'm not convinced that the metal to wood contact will be lossless. On the other hand the system, as designed, may have been voiced with losses at this location...
I'm very close now, and have the weekend more or less off to work on my Vsonics :whip:
Cheers!
John
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Hi All,
Ron, I think that you have found that by "carpeting" the lower vent the bass has been recuced to some extent. It will be interesting to know your impressions when you begin to remove the "carpet"
John, Crapeting is not suggested in the lower vent chamber as A/B listening tests indicate that the bass is down slightly but drier. Certainly none of the slam and impact is lost, the carpet just makes the bass sound different. If you want to play with the carpeting in this position don't glue the carpet in place before you make permanent decision to glue it in. You may even like to put carpet in place when playing various CDs and vice versa. Hugh's VSonics has no carpet and mine does. But the listening rooms are different and I can't be bothered to take the carpet out.
By all means go for a larger plynth, what ever turns you on. But I suggest that you should not make a plynth any thicker than about 25mm (1") thick as the tweeter should be about the height of the listeners ear in an average listening position. Some VSonic builders have even contemplated using basalt, marble etc for the plynth.
The batting (stuffing) should be loosely folded lengthwise and placed below the woofer about half way down the chamber. Do NOT place it directly behind the woofer as stuffing in such a placement tends to muddy the sound the slight restricting of the movement of the drivers cone. Placement of the tweeter stuffing should be above the tweeter and not behind it either.
By all means use some sealant behind the tweeter. The VSonics have not been voiced allowing for any air losses at all.
Have fun,
Cheers,
Laurie.
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Johnny,
It's nice to hear that another pair of V-sonics are nearing completion. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what they can do (how's that for understatement!). I used a small bead of blu-tak around the tweeter flange, as I've not finished playing with the drivers yet. It seems to work well, but I will eventually use "Plumber's Mait", which seals but never hardens. I made up some 3/4 inch plinths around an inch wider than the cabinets, which will be going on when the lower chamber is sorted out. As for the stuffing, the lower piece was arranged into a tube just below the bass driver, and the upper piece behind the tweeter, but I'll be changing that having seen Laurie's last message.
Laurie,
My V-sonics still have the 1mm thick felt in the lower chamber, but it won't be there for long.... I'll be removing it this afternoon! I'll also make some adjustments to the stuffing, bringing it in line with your recommendations above.
Cheers,
Ron
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Laurie and Ron,
Thanks for your replies.
I'm very pleased to have some of these details sorted out.
Cheers,
John
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Hi John,
Back from the Maine event?
I hope you fire up your VSonics very soon...... your build is very well done, and you should get quite a surprise!
Hugh, in blistering 35C today!
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Hugh, Laurie and all,
Here are the results of yesterday's tweaking:
1. Move stuffing to Laurie's suggested locations:
Difficult to put your finger on, but it sounds like there's better integration between the drivers.
2. Removal of 80% of the felt lining in the lower chamber:
4 of the 5 pieces of felt were removed, leaving the top piece in place so as not to disturb the crossover.
The bass is back :thumb: - and better than before, as the drivers are now well run in.
3. Removal of sealing on the tweeter:
Suffice it to say that I put the blu-tac back PDQ!
Thanks Hugh and Laurie for your patient help and guidance, I think I'm now listening to these speakers as they were intended to sound. aa
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Ron,
It's been a pleasure, I hope you did not find it frustrating.....
I will incorporate all the points you make in the latest instructions.
Would you like to pen a small review, give us your considered thoughts compared to other speakers you have owned?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hugh,
The only frustrating part was not having enough time to dedicate to speaker building!
I learned a lot and with Aspen's help built some truly excellent loudspeakers.
Review to follow when I've had a chance to play some CDs and LPs.....
Cheers,
Ron.
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Guys,
I assume the tweeter terminal painted white is the hot one?
Spec sheets don't seem to indicate :scratch:
Since I'm asking, you KNOW what stage I'm at :drool:
Best,
John
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Hi John,
Yes, if the other terminal is BLACK or unmarked, as I think it might be.
No, if the other terminal is RED, but I don't think you have that series!
Nearly there!!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Well I figured white was the new red and went ahead with a test run. But as always, I'm grateful for confirmation. My Vsonics logged about 5 hours this afternoon, apparently in correct phase and definitely churning out more tuneful bass and mid to upper range timbre than the diminutive Ruarks they so recently replaced. JJ Cale (bass) is rock'n my listening room, and some spanish guitar that happened to come up on the FM was holographic in the timbre department...
What do I need for full bloom- 20 hours?
Attached, some photos. WAF is in evidence :thumb:
The paint is still drying on the plinths, yet to be installed. As I anticipated, I'm happy with ~ 2" increase in tweeter hight from my listening position, not that I am above average hight.
Cheers,
John
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23971)(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=23972)
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
Yes, if the other terminal is BLACK or unmarked, as I think it might be.
No, if the other terminal is RED, but I don't think you have that series!
Nearly there!!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi John,
Beautiful work, really like the fit, finish - and the port looks better than the original, I think......
Thank you for showing us this beautiful speaker, and I'm so glad you like the sound. The bass is more placed in the room, than played - and it's an indefinable quality of all TLs, they are just so musical.
The resolution of these two drivers is something extraordinary, hats off to Peerless for getting the detail so precise. The crossover, Laurie's design, is absolutely a work of art. The crossover took more than twelve months to get exactly right, and it's a masterpiece.
Thanks for sharing, John, 20 hours is about right!
Is the standing lizard sticking it's tongue out at us?
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Well I figured white was the new red and went ahead with a test run. But as always, I'm grateful for confirmation. My Vsonics logged about 5 hours this afternoon, apparently in correct phase and definitely churning out more tuneful bass and mid to upper range timbre than the diminutive Ruarks they so recently replaced. JJ Cale (bass) is rock'n my listening room, and some spanish guitar that happened to come up on the FM was holographic in the timbre department...
What do I need for full bloom- 20 hours?
Attached, some photos. WAF is in evidence :thumb:
The paint is still drying on the plinths, yet to be installed. As I anticipated, I'm happy with ~ 2" increase in tweeter hight from my listening position, not that I am above average hight.
Cheers,
John
Mmmm, John,
I think the position of your VSonics leaves something to be desired. Maybe you have to buy your wife an expensive diamond ring ... or beat her over the head!! :lol:
(I recommend diamonds ... and for her latest b'day, I have bought wifey some custom-made gold jewellery. Hence I don't get much hassle in the WAF department! :o )
Comparing your location with Hugh's "Master Set" setup ... you could do with the speakers being more out. Can I suggest you research the posts about the Master Set?
Alternatively, if your room is fairly symmetrical (which Hugh's is not), try placing:
* the centre of the woofer exactly 1/5th the length from the front wall
* exactly 1/5th in from the side walls, and
* point the VSonics directly at your ears.
And report back! :D
Regards,
Andy
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Ah Andy, You've anticipated my next post! I was hoping to get some advice on placement without going through the whole masterset thing, which I have read :scratch:
At the moment the speakers are in a resting position while they break in, and the wife, cat and kids get used to their presence. Soon, they will mysteriously begin to creep out into the room in increments of 2.5 inches over successive nights. Maybe no one will notice :icon_twisted:
The room is very symmetrical- a nearly perfect golden ratio shoe box. Interesting, 1/5 from the side walls? That's really into the corners, which should indeed lift the bass. Interestingly, what you suggest would put the speakers and my listening position in an equilateral triangle, another rule of thumb :thumb:
And you are also suggesting the speakers should toe in? Is that the general consensus for the Vs?
I will definitely report back!
Cheers,
John
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Ron,
I will incorporate all the points you make in the latest instructions.
Hugh
Hugh,
I have a layout diagram for the interior damping material (felt/carpeting) and templates for the driver layout. The latter make quick work for setting up the front panels for machining the driver rebates (rabbets) and cutouts. Especially nice if you blow it the first time :duh: :oops:
You're welcome to these as well, if you think they might help clarify the instructions.
Would very much like to see revised editions as they become available.
Cheers,
John
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John,
I'm particularly grateful to you for your perseverance and willingness to make this material available to me, yes, please!!
And I will share the revised notes with great pleasure, indeed, I suspect I will defer on writing style as well.......
Watch those speakers. Walking speakers are curiously infective......
Cheers,
Hugh
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Ah Andy, You've anticipated my next post! I was hoping to get some advice on placement without going through the whole masterset thing, which I have read :scratch:
Cheers,
John
John,
You spent How Many Hours Building The Speakers and letting them run in?????????????????????????
And you don't have any time to set them up????????????????????????????????????
And you want some quick 5 minute method??????????????????????????????????
A day, a week, a month, a year, etc, after you do Master Set, even if you do a couple after tweaks, you won't remember the time you spent doing it.
Set up is as important part of making a speaker work right as gluing the sides together on the cabinet.
Something to think about....
Steve
PS. I happen to be visiting my brother and I see that I have posted on his moniker.
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Defer?
To me? :oops:
But your prose are so much better than mine :notworthy:
Anyway, looking forward to it!
Cheers,
John
John,
I'm particularly grateful to you for your perseverance and willingness to make this material available to me, yes, please!!
And I will share the revised notes with great pleasure, indeed, I suspect I will defer on writing style as well.......
Watch those speakers. Walking speakers are curiously infective......
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Ron,
You mentioned 1mm felt in the lower chamber. Did you use this in the rest of the enclosure, or did you mean 10mm? I ask because I used ~10mm thick wool Berber carpeting in mine, which I suspect might have a little bit more damping power than ordinary synthetic carpet, though perhaps similar to felt of the same thickness. While I'm thoroughly enjoying my new speakers, the bass does seem a bit reticent on some source material. I'm thinking about taking the lower stuffing out, then adding some back in stages...
Cheers,
John
Hugh, Laurie and all,
Here are the results of yesterday's tweaking:
1. Move stuffing to Laurie's suggested locations:
Difficult to put your finger on, but it sounds like there's better integration between the drivers.
2. Removal of 80% of the felt lining in the lower chamber:
4 of the 5 pieces of felt were removed, leaving the top piece in place so as not to disturb the crossover.
The bass is back :thumb: - and better than before, as the drivers are now well run in.
3. Removal of sealing on the tweeter:
Suffice it to say that I put the blu-tac back PDQ!
Thanks Hugh and Laurie for your patient help and guidance, I think I'm now listening to these speakers as they were intended to sound. aa
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John,
You could well be correct here. It is possible to overdamp these speakers, and the use of carpet, as a generic, does not cover the range of absorbance and is a tad problematic..... some indication that this might happen should be written into the instructions so that people are forewarned that removal of some carpet in the lower chamber may be needed.
Judicious removal from the lower chamber (near the vent) and bass heavy road testing would be a good idea. You can expect these speakers to have very marked impact and slam in the bass.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi John,
By all means alter the amount of stuffing and placement of it in the front chamber. But make sure that there is a hole through the centre of the roll of stuffing about the size of your arm. What you will be doing now is tuning the VSonics to your listening room. This is a very subjective area and the configuration of the stuffing may not be the same for all. A good wool Berber is very absorbent. VSonics with a synthetic carpet don't seem to sound as clean and true to the source CD.
Now be carefull of the CD, vinyil etc you are using to tune the bass. Unfortunately a lot of CDs have been clipped at the top and bottom ends where as the better ones have the full dynamics of the music usually providing a full punchy bass.
To overcome the deficiency of bass on some source material a Transmissionline bass extender (Ben) has been designed to seamlessly extend the bass of the VSonics. If you want a pipe organ and electric bass guitar in your listening room this speaker will do that all very musically.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Hi John,
I have 10mm thick wool looped Berber carpet as the damping material in all but the lower chamber. There I have a 1mm felt covering on the underside of the baffle (the panel that the crossover is fixed to), otherwise the lower chamber is undamped. This gives the punchy bass, and it's slightly more articulate than no damping at all.
One thing I discovered is that it's much easier to stick self-adhesive felt than it is to remove it :duh:, but soaking in IPA softens the glue enough to get the felt off in one piece.
Cheers,
Ron.
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Thanks Hugh,
Oh, and I've been taking notes on the Vsonics sound :inlove:
Stay tuned aa
and Laurie,
Ah! I actually rolled the lower front chamber stuffing in spiral fashion with no free passage down the center, so I will alter that asap. Do you roll it on the long axis or the short axis, resulting in a taller or shorter cylinder? A shorter cylinder might be placed between the bottom of the woofer frame and the top of the exit port- is this desirable? Should it not go all the way to the bottom? Is this what you mean by placing it "half way down below the woofer"?
Sorry to be obsessing about this, but it seems you have spent much time fine tuning and it would be great to have a standard reference point from which to start tweaking for the room and system. In the upper front chamber, I rolled the stuffing into a spiral cylinder bent into a horse shoe (upside down U) shape and pushed it up into the top so the sides of the U descend on either side of the chamber leaving an open space behind the tweeter. That sound about right? How 'bout you Ron?
You are absolutely right about source material. Having logged some run in time, I went immediately to cherished LP's from the 60's and 70's and finally realized their limitations. (This system upgrade has changed everything :o) I have since settled on a few choice contemporary recordings to work with whilst tweaking.
Ron,
Glad to hear you used wool Berber as well. It seems that our as builts should be quite comparable then :thumb:
Cheers,
John
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Ron and Johnny, inspired by your work i have decide to build a pair of Vsonic's. I told Hugh that i promised myself not to build any speaker again in the future, but since i have the Lifeforce 100 amp -and i love it- i am really exciting what the Vsonic will bring as they will be the perfect couple. l live in the Netherlands and my technical English is not that well, but i learned a lot already from you pictures, thanks. I am not i a hurry and will do some shopping first to look after veneer MDF panels. i wonder if Plywood vs MDF has different characteristics? Plywood seems a more easy choice to work with for the outside baffles. I will report my progress in this thread.
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Hi Johnny,
I have placed the stuffing lengthwise (horse shoe shape) down the front camber in my VSonics with the ends facing the V. That is with the centre of the stuffing against the front baffle and the bottom of the stuffing about level with the vent, no further down. The driver has to have some free air space to breathe in a controlled manner.\
I presume that you have a fairly large listening room as you appear to be geetting the stuffing close to the position in my VSonics. My room is 12' H X 17' W X 24" long and is full of furniture. With a reasonable amount of furniture in the room the bass is more pronounced. I have had the VSonics at the local sailing club where we hold a jazz night a couple of times a year. The club room is 18'H X 46'W X 90' long. Last year a very good sax player played along with a backing cd of his band and he often expresses a desire to build the VSonics. I also had the transmissionline woofer (Ben) going as well. That added the realistic effect of a band going full bore inside the club.
Have fun tuning the VSonics and a rewarding New Year.
Hybride, I have experemented with ply wood and MDF over the years and now tend to use MDF in preference to ply. But sometimes I have glued a thin 3 or 4 mm ply to MDF for extra damping and it is also easier to attach than a thin veneer of wood.
Cheers,
Laurie.
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Thanks Laurie,
I'll decide to go for all MDF. It is not only cheaper, but also more easy building i think; i can use screws to all panels and afterwards i will cover the holes with good quality filler. The choice for the finish i choose later. Maybe thin plywood, but i feel more for a high brilliance paint. Now first wait until i receive the full build instructions from Hugh..
John, did you use 18mm MDF + 9?mm plywood for the front, top and side baffles?
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Happy New Year, Tliners!
Sorry for the delayed response. For the past five “vacation” days I’ve been in snowbound Vermont getting my mother settled in an assisted living situation and doing the sorting, trashing, moving and storage thing to clear out her flat by the end of the month. Mom’s very happy in her new place. Lets’s hope that’s it for a while. Now, back to work!
Hybride, I’m sure you will be pleased with the Vsonics. Absolutely worth the effort, cost effective and synergistic with the Aspen amplifiers. Having spent the day making final tuning adjustments and listenting sessions, I can say that these speakers are stunning, and like every Aspen upgrade I have made along the way, Transformative!
I also debated about plywood vs. MDF, and went with Baltic Birch ply based of previous experiences. Interior panels are MDF. While not potentially as effective as dissimilar laminate materials for the entire panels, I figure this mix of materials can’t hurt… I am aware of one experiment by a very experienced professional speaker builder who made two pair of speakers in each material and could discern small differences between them, but could not say which was “better”. Unfortunately, Baltic Birch is not what it used to be (at least as currently imported to the US) and I had problems with voids and defects that required doing several panels over. If I were to do this again, and I may, I would go with a marine grade Mahogany plywood, such as those that are produced in your homeland I believe…
However, I also considered full MDF enclosures, brought to a high quality finish, such as you are considering. I have done this successfully on several non-speaker projects. With careful attention to sealing, priming and sanding, a very nice finish can be achieved. You could go for the piano laquer look, in any color you you choose!
Oh!, now I understand your last question. My exterior panels are only plywood, but cut to a “box joint” so only half the full thickness of the plywood is exposed. This is a retro Scandinavian trick (I believe) to minimize the exposure of plywood edges…
Looking forward to hearing about your progress, and I’m sure we will all offer advice as you move along...
Cheers!
John
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Laurie,
Thanks for your post. You caught me at a good time. This morning I was just pulling out the woofers to try a new stuffing arrangement.
Before the holidays, I had removed the lower stuffing entirely to get a reference point. The sound was much warmer, but the the bass and particularly upper bass and midrange totally lost focus. I then rolled the stuffing into a tube about arm’s thickness as you mentioned, and put this into the lower chamber with the bottom edge even with the top of the exit port. This put the top edge even with the bottom of the woofer cutout. Better clarity and focus, but a still reticent bass response.
Based on your last post, this morning I rolled the tube, then folded it in half like a horse shoe and inserted it into the chamber so the bottom edge was even with the top of the exit port, but now the upper part of the stuffing was well below the woofer- about half the distance from the woofer to the exit port. This was the nugget I’ve been looking for! Apparently the woofer was not “breathing” properly before. OMG! I went back to my lp’s. Band of Gypsy’s (Hendrix) was Alive and well. Mahavishnu Orchestra’s “Birds of Fire” was thundering, and delicate, and detailed, and startling- “experienced” like never before.
I have more to say about the flawless performance in the upper registers, vocals, jazz, horns, cymbals, string quartets, etc., in the critical crossover region, but I must find the words…
Cheers!
John
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John,
I for one - and I'm confident Laurie feels the same - await those well chosen words, and indeed, I need to ask you for your considered thoughts on assembly you alluded to a couple months back...... :drool:
A very Happy New Year to you and your family - and to all AKSAphiles here. Expect more from Aspen this year! 8)
Cheers,
Hugh
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This might be old news, but I've just noticed that due to some sort of re-organisation in the parent company, the Peerless HDS 810921 Tweeter used in the Vsonics has become:
Scan-Speak Discovery D2608/9130 1" Textile Dome HDS Tweeter
I'm not sure if there are any changes to the specs, but it looks identical from the pics I've seen.
The Data Sheet can be found here: http://scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2608-913000.pdf
Cheers,
Ron.
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Hi Ron,
Thanks for the heads up, this is indeed the 921, and if you look on the pdf, there is a label on the magnet which reads 810921. This is the identical tweeter, same specs exactly, rebadged, nothing more. This reflects the upheaval in the corporation as Tymphany went broke and Scanspeak bought the assets, including all the designs, stock, and factory jigs.
NOTE: These tweeters don't take kindly to soldering the voice coil tags, it is possible to open circuit the connection. Always best to use spade, push on connectors.
Hugh
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Glad you mentioned this Hugh. I was about to screw up the courage to solder my tweeters this weekend, having used spades throughout for the initial setup. I did solder my woofer terminals a few weeks ago and this turned out to be essential in obtaining the best bass response...
btw I noticed that Madisound has replacement voice coils for $30 in case anyone gets into trouble.
How does one deal with the ferro-fluid when replaceing a VC?
Cheers!
John
NOTE: These tweeters don't take kindly to soldering the voice coil tags, it is possible to open circuit the connection. Always best to use spade, push on connectors.
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John,
That seems very cheap to me.... and I'm not sure how they do the ferro-fluid. My understanding is that it is applied with a syringe, but not sure how.
We have a speaker rebuild company in this town who go by the fetching name of 'Total Recoil'.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Ron,
Thanks for the heads up, this is indeed the 921, and if you look on the pdf, there is a label on the magnet which reads 810921.
It's always been a Scan Speak made tweeter and now they have rightly claimed it.
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Yes, I thought $30 seemed quite reasonable, but then you have to deal with disassembling the tweeter and the ferro fluid. I guess the fluid is retained by the magnet even when you slip the coil assembly out? Maybe best left to "Total Recoil"- gotta love that :thumb:
John,
That seems very cheap to me.... and I'm not sure how they do the ferro-fluid. My understanding is that it is applied with a syringe, but not sure how.
We have a speaker rebuild company in this town who go by the fetching name of 'Total Recoil'.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Wabbitz,
So the QC problems reported for these tweeters (omission of ferro fluid) can't be attributed to a change in physical plant?
Not very reassuring :o
Is there any info on what time frame or Ser#s were involved?
Tx
John
It's always been a Scan Speak made tweeter and now they have rightly claimed it.
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Plinths will be ready to install tomorrow :thumb:
Then its on to the dreaded grill covers :evil:
Procrastination is painless :oops:
I'druther just listen :inlove:
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John,
I know exactly where you are at......
I sympathise, good progress, real rewards await when WAF is assured!
Hugh
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Wabbitz,
So the QC problems reported for these tweeters (omission of ferro fluid) can't be attributed to a change in physical plant?
Not very reassuring :o
Is there any info on what time frame or Ser#s were involved?
Tx
John
Never heard of a problem with them and have sold heaps plus involved with numerous builders who use them. They've been made by Scan Speak since 2005 and IIRC were released in 2006. Of course any manufacturer can have a QA glitch. Loss of ferrofluid is no big deal and a lot of tweeters can benefit from the removal but I'm not to saying that these would as I haven't tried that mod with them.
I've had mine for a couple of years and have belted the crap out of them with no failure. The passive crossover for them does not have a cap in series to protect them and are wired directly to the +ve input so they take on all comers without dramas.
Come to think of it I've never blown a tweeter in scores of designs and believe me I've done some nasty things to them.... they're robust little buggers.
Have you had a problem with these tweeters?
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John, Peter,
The problem was confined to a small batch during the Tymphany reign, as I understand. I need more information too, which I can get from Laurie. It is almost impossible to tell from the physical configuration of the tweeter, but the problem passed many months ago when all new tweeters were made in Denmark.
It's very unlikely to affect you, however, just a few that came to Oz as I understand.
Lack of ferrofluid makes them brighter, just as you'd expect.
Cheers,
Hugh
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After much tinkering, the Vsonics cabinets are finished!
Here's a few pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=25574)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=25576)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=25577)
I wish I'd seen Hugh's warning about not soldering the connections before having a Tweeter go open circuit!
Cheers,
Ron.
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Thanks for the encouragement Hugh!
John,
I know exactly where you are at......
I sympathise, good progress, real rewards await when WAF is assured!
Hugh
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Thanks for the info Wabbitz. Its good to know these are rugged tweeters!
No I have not had a problem, though as Hugh reported, some units were shipped out without ferro, and this would effect the crossover Zobel values if not corrected.
The other concern was about soldering the terminals to the speaker wires and the possibly melting the voicecoil connections. I was just mentioning the availability of replacement coils through Madisound in case anyone has this problem, though I am not sure if replacement is a simple matter. Perhaps you can shed some light on this?
Cheers,
John
Never heard of a problem with them and have sold heaps plus involved with numerous builders who use them. They've been made by Scan Speak since 2005 and IIRC were released in 2006. Of course any manufacturer can have a QA glitch. Loss of ferrofluid is no big deal and a lot of tweeters can benefit from the removal but I'm not to saying that these would as I haven't tried that mod with them.
I've had mine for a couple of years and have belted the crap out of them with no failure. The passive crossover for them does not have a cap in series to protect them and are wired directly to the +ve input so they take on all comers without dramas.
Come to think of it I've never blown a tweeter in scores of designs and believe me I've done some nasty things to them.... they're robust little buggers.
Have you had a problem with these tweeters?
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Look'n good Ron!
Ain't they grand? :thumb:
Cheers,
John
After much tinkering, the Vsonics cabinets are finished!
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Ron,
Impressive, congratulations!
Would you or John be interested in a simple review for the website?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hugh, I am interested, have something in progress and hope to get'er done soon.
I've been trying to get myself clear on some technical aspects of the design, but should probably just concentrate on listening impressions :roll:
Ron, Did you paint your woofer frames, or do the come in black ? :drool:
Cheers,
John
Ron,
Impressive, congratulations!
Would you or John be interested in a simple review for the website?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Johnny,
I spray painted the woofer frames with satin black smooth hammerite, as I was not a fan of the Aluminium frame with black mounting screws. It looks much 'cleaner' this way.
A new Tweeter is on it's way, as I couldn't disassemble the one which went OC on soldering. Those 4 small allen bolts are done up tight! Normal service should be resumed in about a week. :cry:
Cheers,
Ron.
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Ah! Very nice in black, esp if you are dispensing with grill cloths.
Condolences on the tweeter. Hope the new one arrives post haste!
Cheers,
Jy
Hi Johnny,
I spray painted the woofer frames with satin black smooth hammerite, as I was not a fan of the Aluminium frame with black mounting screws. It looks much 'cleaner' this way.
A new Tweeter is on it's way, as I couldn't disassemble the one which went OC on soldering. Those 4 small allen bolts are done up tight! Normal service should be resumed in about a week. :cry:
Cheers,
Ron.
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Ron,
I'm very sorry to hear you damaged a tweeter and need a replacement, very sheepish about telling you too late. I only found out myself from Laurie recently, who is a mine of information not only on the technology but also the day to day politics of the recent company changes!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi All,
Yes, I have recently cooked three 921 tweeters with the soldering iron, one after the other. That was after I had soldered over a dozen or two of them without any problems. The 921 tweeters used in the prototype VSonics have been de-soldered and re-soldered at least a dozen or more times without a problem. The plastic (ABS???) appears to have a higher softening/melting point in the older 921's.
However all is not lost. Today I decided to see what the problem actually is. Finding:- yes the heat of the soldering iron heats the metal lug which in turn softens the plastic surround for the lug to be depressed sufficiently for it to loose contact with the voice coil wire which is ONLY laid under the lug between it and on top of the plastic. I saw a gap between the lug and the wire of about 0.025" under a powerful magnifying glass. I then reheated the lug sufficiently to soften the plastic and then with a very small screw driver pushed the offending lug back into its origional position. The 921 now works again. I will repeat the repair on the other tweeters soon.
But most importantly my congratulations goes to Ron and John for very well detailed but with distinctly individual approach to building their VSonics. Well done!
I had a clean up in the listening room and the VSonics were moved out. Later when I was listening to a CD or two I noticed that the sound stage had altered sufficiently for me to have a look at the speakers. I had swapped the left speaker to the right side and vice versa. I will leave them swapped over for a while as the sound stage is much wider and instruments in an orchestra appear to be much more spread out with the same imaging as before. Worth a try??.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Thanks for the explanation Laurie,
I'll have a look at my duff tweeter to see if it can be repaired by your method. It seems like the ones I have are the later models, as the plastic softened quite easily when soldering.
Hugh,
Don't feel bad, t'was my decision to solder the tweeter connectors as "belt and braces" on final assembly.
Note to self: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Cheers,
Ron.
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I've melted one of these tweeters myself. Voice coil isn't particularly resistant to overheating. I tried to be very careful with the soldering iron, but I still managed to fry it. :duh:
I'm much more fond of pro audio components. Compression drivers are always super rugged. 8)
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Hello Hans,
Have you embarked on the Vsonics journey?
Best Regards,
John
Ron and Johnny, inspired by your work i have decide to build a pair of Vsonic's. I told Hugh that i promised myself not to build any speaker again in the future, but since i have the Lifeforce 100 amp -and i love it- i am really exciting what the Vsonic will bring as they will be the perfect couple. l live in the Netherlands and my technical English is not that well, but i learned a lot already from you pictures, thanks. I am not i a hurry and will do some shopping first to look after veneer MDF panels. i wonder if Plywood vs MDF has different characteristics? Plywood seems a more easy choice to work with for the outside baffles. I will report my progress in this thread.
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Hi John,
Thanks for your post! How are your speakers, are you enjoying all your recordings to the full?
Yes, Hans did buy the VSonics kit, and has started, and indeed nearly finished. He had some issues getting hold of the 884 Peerless 8" woofer, but managed to JUST sneak through and acquire a pair. Now that Tymphany is dissolved, Scanspeak has acquired all the designs from the company shell and doubtless they will produce new designs using the Peerless IP.
Laurie and I have moved on, a little painfully because the Peerless drivers were so damn good and cost effective, but we have redeveloped the VSonics to use the Scanspeak H1288 8" driver. There are changes to the crossover, of course, but there is no cost to sound quality at all, and we are thrilled about the results.
More information to come.....
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hello Hans,
Have you embarked on the Vsonics journey?
Best Regards,
John
Hi John.
I recieved the Vsonic kit a month ago, but last week started with the enclosure. I am a bit confused about the bass hole. Hugh told me that both speakers are identical (bass hole right-behind), but when i look at the pictures of Ron he did it mirrored. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2123
How have you done it?
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Good for you! I'm glad you're on your way.
I'm sure you will hear from Hugh or Laurie, but to answer your question as to what I did, I built them with both bass holes on the right according to instructions (for a change!). I puzzled about this too, and can't think why it would make a difference, but I think the important thing is that the exit hole from the main front chamber should be on the opposite side of the bass hole, so that the path goes up and over the rear internal divider and down though the bass hole into the lower chamber.
Personally, I would have found it easier to keep the mirror image thing a constant in my head throughout the building process...
Keep us posted and feel free to post any questions.
Cheers,
Jy
Hi John.
I recieved the Vsonic kit a month ago, but last week started with the enclosure. I am a bit confused about the bass hole. Hugh told me that both speakers are identical (bass hole right-behind), but when i look at the pictures of Ron he did it mirrored. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=2123
How have you done it?
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Hi Hugh,
Good to hear from you.
Yes, still "gobsmacked" and at a loss for words. Unfortunately I have been going through another period of distracting demands on my time, and so, just sink into the music when the opportunity comes. The LP's are particularly rewarding. I will try to share my listening impressions soon...
Interestingly, and not coincidentally I believe, the wife has lately taken a great interest in the stereo, for the first time ever. Wants to know how to switch everything in. I often come home to a Pandora stream via the sb3, or our local public radio station that has recently gone over to 24/7 classical music. And it is obvious it has been on all afternoon! How can I top that in praise for your work? :wink:
I had a feeling that there would be a bit of a shake up after the Peerless buyout, and wondered how it would resolve. Any change to the enclosure required with the new driver?
Cheers!
Jy
Hi John,
Thanks for your post! How are your speakers, are you enjoying all your recordings to the full?
Yes, Hans did buy the VSonics kit, and has started, and indeed nearly finished. He had some issues getting hold of the 884 Peerless 8" woofer, but managed to JUST sneak through and acquire a pair. Now that Tymphany is dissolved, Scanspeak has acquired all the designs from the company shell and doubtless they will produce new designs using the Peerless IP.
Laurie and I have moved on, a little painfully because the Peerless drivers were so damn good and cost effective, but we have redeveloped the VSonics to use the Scanspeak H1288 8" driver. There are changes to the crossover, of course, but there is no cost to sound quality at all, and we are thrilled about the results.
More information to come.....
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi John & All,
A few months ago, to my utter amazement while I happened to have my VSonics upside down when testing a crossover for the SEAS H1288 woofer, I found that after all these years of testing and playing around with them the boxes are a mirror image of each other. Obviously there is no difference in the sound at all. There is no reason why the sound should be different either.
I had finished adding a new inductor to the left speaker and reached over to the right hand speaker without looking and gently placed the inductor where I thought the bass hole wasn't. Clunk, the un soldered inductor vanished down the hole to the inner depths. I carefully shook the speaker obviously moving the inductor further into the depths. I finally retrieved the inductor and a few "lost" screws and resistors with it. Then I slowly looked at the left speaker and back again and a few more times 'till the penny fell. The speakers are a mirror imqage of each other.
A few days later I decided to take the grills off and I had swapped the speakers over, L to R etc. I might be having myself on but I had been thinking that the sound stage was wider than usual. Give a go at swapping the speakers over, you might have a new experience too!!
Have fun,
Cheers,
Laurie.
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Hi All,
The hole size for tyhe Peerless 830884 is a nominal 225.2 mm and the SEAS H1288 is a nominal 220.6 mm diameter. The SEAS driver (no flat sides) still fits easily but is very close to the edge of the box. The grill MDF has to be increased to about 16 mm thick and relieved on the inside to clear the driver by a few mm. The front edge of the grill can be rounded off a bit ( say a 16 mm radius or what ever you fancy) rather than being a right angle corner to eliminate the appearence of bulkyness. Always measure the actual driver diameter before you cut the hole. It is very hard to make a neat rebated hole with a knife or chisel. I have had the same brand of 12" woofers from the same batch vary by some 3 mm in diameter. Don't rely upon the data sheets if you want the drivers to have a snug fit.
I just looked at my VSonics and found that even the binding post blocks are positioned mirror image too! Even though the binding post blocks were out of a sealed pack, I found when I fired the speakers up the bass was non existant and the sound was generally diffuse. No imaging, sound stage worth speaking of, just a terrible sound. The speakers had to be out of phase with each other. The problem was that the out of phase was due to the terminal knobs had beeing swapped from one side of the block to the other during assembly. I duly connected up the leads red to red etc without checking for any tricks. Still a little puzzled after I checked the internal wiring and crossover, finding it all ok I then realised that the speaker leads were connected to the wrong terminals due to the colour of the knob mix up. I had a good listen and was pleased. I did not even notice the terminal blocks were on opposite sides, wow??.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Devil in the details
A truism...
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Laurie,
So to be 100% sure; it doesn't matter on which side the bass port is. The only thing that matters is that the bass port and V-baffle 'port' are on opposite sides. Is that right?
Thanks
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Hi Hans,
I constructed the Vsonics cabinets mirrored because it appealed to the OCD/Audio Nervosa side of my nature - just in case there was the slightest chance of asymmetrical dispersion from the TL ports. Hugh and Laurie assured me this was not the case, but I went and did it anyway.
Cheers,
Ron.
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Ah, Chief,
The old 'OCD and audio nervosa' trick, something I'm sure Maxwell Smart commented on.
How I love this game, it's what we are all here for!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hans,
The bass port and V-baffle port should be on opposite sides. That configuration allows the sound to travel down the front chamber, up the left or right rear chamber depending which way you are building the speakers, then down the opposite rear chamber then out the bass port. You should be able to place a piece of string from the woofer continuously to the bass port. If you can't pull the string through you have stuffed up somehow.
Many years ago a DIY client put the central V upside down in both speakers with the V-baffle port directly behind the woofer at the top. That confused the sound no end. The mids and bass was poor, sounded like there was some sort of built in reverberation unit, not what was expected. Unfortunately the glue and screw job was very good and the speakers could not be undone. The client was happy after he built a second pair of speakers. He later commented that he should have looked at the assembly photo and the instructions more carefully.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Hi all,
Well, if this isn't a record ;-) I builded de speakers in two days! (I was good prepared). I build them without any finishing. I will do that later. Now heard the first notes, will play further tomorrow. The building was nice to do. Whats so important is that all parts are exactly the good size. In my case they where not! aargghh, I emphasized this twice to the carpenter, but it didn't work out. Here are some pictures of the building process;
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28043)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28044)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=28045)
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Congratulations Hans! :thumb:
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Congratulations Hans!
Once you receive the cut wood and have all the tools and adhesive ready it usually takes about 16 or so hours to get VSonics running. Then there is the finishing which can take allsorts of time depending if you have to veneer them or not.
I had to do a double take when I first saw your photos of the work in progress. The photos of my VSonics at that stage look exactly the same (so they should actually) but the style and colour of the carpet you used appears to be the same too.
If your carpenter has cutting equipment that can cut within the tolerance of + - 0.25 mm there is usually not a problem. But there are not many carpenters that can cut to 0 tolerance. My carpenter is so good that I have to groove and really roughen the surfaces to be glued so that the glue is not squeezed out of the joint when the parts are clamped.
I usually build speakers and get them going as soon as possible then finish them off later. But I can end up with music withdrawl symptoms if finishing takes too long.
When will we read your listening impressions of the VSonics? But remember that the drivers can take a few hours toto even days to run in. The should become even sweeter over time.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Laurie, a big compliment to you and offcourse Hugh! You guys know how to reproduce music. The Vsonics and the Lifeforce100 are a perfect marriage. Before i bought the Vsonics i told Hugh that i had personal doubts. Since i have expensive top of the line Focal speakers (1027BE), the change that the Vsonics could come near to this quality would be wishfull thinking in my consideration. But a speaker that perfectly matches an amp i love and the fact that it is a transmissionline design got me curious enough to buy them.
I just have listened some hours without any expectations. They impress me! The tonal balance is correct. The sound is holistic, not attacking. Deep basses are not booming, they have a natural impact. The total soundstage has a lively presentation and balanced dynamics. They can handle pretty much volume without loosing control. It's attractive en enjoyable to listen. I have to listen more to get into details, but at this point i want to let you know that i am very happy with them.
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Hans,
Let me too offer my congratulations, you have done a fine job on the build. Not easy to do a good job, either.
Most of all, and I'm sure Laurie would be delighted as well as me, you like the sounds they make. Speakers are in large measure a matter of taste, but the sound we go for is neutral, natural, and highly resolving without fatigue - a difficult balance if you throw in exceptional imaging as well. That you have noticed all these qualities is a vindication of our approach, and a satisfying conclusion to your purchase. And thank you for sharing all this positive information with us!
Groetjes,
Hugh
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Hi Ron
I'm new to this forum, and will start building a pair of VSonics in the near future (Hugh would say its LONG overdue, as I've had all the parts for 18 months). I am impressed with your attention to details - especially the "Hammerited" woofer frames. Two questions, if I may: (1) did you first use a Hammerite primer; and (2) how did you protect the cone and its suspension from the volatiles in the paint? :scratch:
Peter Roberts
Maroochydore Qld
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Hi Peter, and welcome to the forum!
I hope you'll be as pleased with your Vsonics as I am with mine.
1. I didn't use a primer, but I did go over the surface with 800 wet or dry paper to help adhesion of the paint.
2. Looking closely at the woofer surround, just outside where the rubber suspension finishes there's a small "trench". I cut some very thin cardboard to make a tube that fit into the trench, then closed off the top of the tube with more cardboard and masking tape. A similar tube was cut to fit the rear of the driver in thicker cardboard, this was taped to the back of the surround. Effectively you have a closed off cylinder, with the driver sandwiched in the middle, and the surround sticking out of the circumference some way down.
A spray can of Smooth Hammerite was used, 3 coats with 20 minutes between coats. If you spray in a well ventilated area, most of the volatiles are long gone within a couple of minutes, and the cardboard tube is fairly effective at keeping them away from the suspension. I then removed the tube before the paint dried, but once dry put it back in place while the hammerite cured.
BTW I've not seen any deterioration in the rubber suspension in the several months since painting.
Hope this helps, and good luck with the build!
Ron.
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Hi Ron
Thanks very much for that valuable information. I too had considered the use of cardboard tube, although I'd not thought of a second tube to protect the underside of a driver. No doubt your method will be adopted by other constructors as well.
Regards, Peter Roberts
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Hi all,
I modified my Vsonic's. I changed the Peerless woofer to a Seas CA22RNY driver. The Peerless woofer is out of production and hard to get.
The CA22RNY is a marvelous driver with a higher SPL. I have got some first tips from Hugh to tune the filter for this driver. One coil has to be wind up to about 8 turns.
I am playing around with my Vsonic's to get the best out of them in my environment. I have a nice tweak for Vsonic owners to try. Try to solder a small (0,25w) 15 Kohm carbonresistor over de capacacitors which are in serie with the tweeter. There are two of them, so you need 2 resistors for one speaker. This idea comes from my Dutch friend and DAC designer John Brown from ECdesigns. He uses this trick also with coupling caps. For coupling caps the resistor has to be 2 Mohm. The effect i hear is that the top-treble is better, more fluid and transparant.
I wonder if there are Vsonic owners who experienced with the padding in the speaker. I would love to hear experiences on this.
Thanks.
Hans
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Hans, and other Interested Folkwith the VSonics,
Let me inform you all precisely what has been done with the VSonics, so you are no longer in the dark over a significant design change to accommodate the withdrawal from the market of the Peerless 830884.
When the chosen driver stocks dried up worldwide, Laurie and I conducted a DIY seance to select another suitable driver. Eventually, we settled on the SEAS CA22RNY, a 3.6Kg 8" driver with large ceramic magnet, extremely light cone (17.9g), suitable Force Factor (8.5) and Vas (82 litres) and Qts (0.3). This is a treated paper coned driver with 91dB/watt/metre sensitivity, 90W continuous power rating, and maximum voice coil travel of no less than 20mm. It looked wonderful, and was a similar price.
I bought a couple, and Laurie converted my VSonics as the proto. We had his VSonics with 884s for comparisons. He set to work with Crossover Pro and much zealous tweaking and found that the driver was indeed highly suited to the enclosure, and in fact delivered slightly better bass and matching resolution. Side by side tests also indicated very slight improvement in image depth and focus. This was very good news.
The necessary changes to the crossover are minimal; an inductor and a resistor change, essentially. I have since bought another pair of these drivers so we can convert Laurie's speakers, we are now quite confident. There are changes to the padding above and below the driver; not the carpet, as specified, which lines the transmission folds, but the padding in which the crossovers were sent; it is reduced in quantity and mounted differently. Laurie has recently had eye surgery, nothing serious, and is temporarily out of action with email, but I am about to write this up and will make it available to any present VSonics owners who wish to convert to the SEAS drivers.
I would stress a couple of points. We moved to the SEAS driver, which turned out to be slightly better, not because we wished to upset present owners of an exceptional Aspen speaker, but rather because the demise of Tymphany forced us to redevelop the speaker design for a readily available driver. We deliberately chose something of comparable cost and ready availability worldwide, and this pointed us to the SEAS CA22RNY. That this speaker turns out to drive the transmission line in the bass particularly well, even better than the original Peerless driver, is entirely serendipitous, but we ain't knockin' it back....
Accordingly, watch this space, and in about a week, any existing VSonics owner who wishes to convert can email me and I will have update instructions ready!!
Happy New Year, guys, happy speaker and amp building, and may your best music move you to tears......
Cheers,
Hugh and Laurie!
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Hi Hans,
Thanks for the ideas.
I have been contemplating experimenting with the stuffing now that Vs and my ears are well acquainted, but have not dived in.
Hi Hugh!
Thanks for the preliminaries. I have be wondering what I would do if my woofers were damaged, not by my amps, but an errant child or some such...
Does the Seas fit in the original flange area. I understand the outside diameter is smaller so it might fit within the original rabbeted area, in which case there would some what of a gap around the circumference I suppose. But, is there enough material in the original cutout for the new woofer screws to hold?
Best wishes to all,
John
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Hi All,
Regarding the stuffing:- The placement of the stuffing is critical if you are attempting to get the last ounce of performence out of your VSonics. If you alter the position of the stuffing and amount of it you will notice a difference in souind quality for better or worse. The stuffing as supplied is to be positioned in two places in the cabinet. As supplied the stuffing is "an average amount" which makes the VSonics sound extremely good in most listening situations. What you will be attempting to do by altering the amount of the stuffing of the woofer only is to fine tune the VSonics to your listening area and to what you percieve as the sound that suits you best.
The smaller piece of stuffing is to be placed directly above the tweeter hard against the inside top of the box. A little dollop of PVA glue can be used on the centre of the stuffing to hold it in place. There should be NO stuffing behind the tweeter or woofer. Do NOT alter the volume of the stuffing above the tweeter. The stuffing below the woofer should be positioned just above the internal port and not below it. The stuffing should not block the airway and be positioned hard up against the V. A little PVA glue will keep it in place should it be found to move. You can reduce the length of the woofer stuffing by about half, no more. Somewhere in between you might find "the sweet spot" that suits your tastes.
John, The SEAS drivers do not fit directly into the rebate due to the flat sides of the 884 driver. You have to make the rebate round. I use the SEAS drivers as a template to scribe the where the flats are to be removed then carefully chisle the unwanted wood way. Some of the screw holes align. Drill new holes to suit. I think the top and bottom screw holes are ok from memory.
Cheers,
Laurie
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Laurie, welcome back!
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Yes, welcome back Laurie and happy new year!
Thanks for the additional details- that's the clearest description of default and tweaking of the Vs stuffing if seen yet :wink:
Cheers!
John
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Hi All,
I hope you all have a rewarding 2011.
I'm stealing Hughs thunder a little bit but we had a hoot of a day altering "Supermart's" VSonics to the latest specs with the the SEAS drivers. Well I still can't see properly close up and Hugh seems to have smudgy glasses. I held the solder and sometimes held the wires to be attached while Hugh waved the soldering iron around. Gee, the job got extremely hot every now and again and we some times lost interest in what we were attempting to solder for the sake of self preservation. Marty wondered if his speakers were ever going to to work at all let alone as they should. We all had a good laugh. When we fired up the VSonics 11 we found that they worked as they should. The bass and general slam, attack and note decay is to be heard to be believed. And yet the sound is more "musical and real" than before. Soon we were absorbed in the music, forgetting the speakers and Hugh's new Naksa 70. Usually we spend our time nit picking the system and not listening, but this combination of amp and speaker is something special. I can't wait to audition the VSonics powered by the New Maya and the Naksa 100. Now that WILL be something worth waiting for.
Now it is up to Marty to post his impressions when he has had a good listen to his favourite music pieces.
Cheers Laurie
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John,
The driver is easily changed. I used a sharp chisel to 'round' the two flat edges in the driver hole. The Vsonic's II are driven now by my LF100 amp. Had them also connected to a (10 watt) 813 SE tube amp. Properly even with the filter not yet fine-tuned, the SEAS driver acts like an accomplished acrobat, accurate and fast. The driver has an enormous magnet and is due its high SPL easily driven. In my environment it gains more low pressure in the TL. The mid's and bass response is even more balanced and the deepest subtones are clearly present. Sometimes i 'feel' them like a 'passing train'. The Peerless is a fine driver, but imho it's worth to consider an upgrade.
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Hi Guys,
Time to report on my experiences with the VSonics 2. I've heard them being driven by the NAKSA's (70 & 100), the Maya and now my own Sorayas (circa 2007)>
As I said to Hugh when I first heard them - for me, the upgrade was a "No- Brainer."
The improvements are right across the board but most immediately noticeable is the improvement to the bass quality - there is more quantity, depth and natural tunefulness and on its own it's almost worth the admission price.
IMHO the new driver effectively supercharges the performance of the VSonics 1. The VSonics 2 have greater clarity, speed and slam. The higher SPL makes them livelier at all levels of gain. To put it another way, my Soraya now seems to think it's a NAKSA 100.
If you are an existing VSonics 1 owner then I think you should give yourself a late Xmas present, like I did, and get into the V2 club.
Many thanks to Laurie and Hugh for lifting a couple more veils on the road to audio nirvana.
Cheers,
Marty.
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Hi Hugh, Laurie, Marty and Hybride,
You've convinced me that the Vsonics can get even better than the Mk1, so there's a pair of SEAS drivers on their way to me now. This will be a good filler project to carry out whilst I prevaricate over whether to go for a Naksa 70 or Naksa 100.
Hugh, could you include me in the upgrade instructions mail-out please?
Cheers,
Ron
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Hi Ron,
I've started the instructions, but not complete yet, a few graphics to draw up. Hans and Laurie have been most helpful in this connection; I now have all the info, but will need to ask Laurie to proof my instructions first, bear with me, sorry for delays.
There are three mods; replacement of woofer, adjustment of one inductor in the crossover, and resetting of the acoustic fill inside the first (driver) chamber of the enclosure. Nothing more.....
You will not be disappointed, Ron, the change is considerable.
Thanks for the interest. I should emphasise that all future kits sold will have these mods included as a matter of course. Driver price is almost lineball with the Peerless 884, too, so it's no more expensive.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
My Vsonics are now sporting their new bass drivers, and the other adjustments have been carried out to your very clear instructions. This gave a very nice improvement in low frequency extension and accuracy.
A router was used to unflatten the edges of the driver cutouts, mainly because I was wary of using a chisel on the plywood front baffle, as I don't have grilles.
A 2X1 inch batten was placed behind the driver cut-out and screwed through two of the driver mounting holes. Then a second batten the same thickness as the front baffle was screwed to the first. The centre of the cut-out was then marked and drilled, then used as the pivot point for the router circle guide. This also allowed me to deepen the driver cut-out slightly, as the SEAS driver flanges are slightly thicker than the Peerless ones.
Now to relax and listen to some Tunes!
Cheers,
Ron.
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Nice pioneering work Ron!
This will smooth the way for those of us who follow...
Best,
John
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Hi Ron,
The music gets better! I'm pleased that you have made the update and found it an improvement.
After fifty years of mucking around with speakers ther is always something new to learn.
I have spent countless hours cutting and recutting driver holes etc. Fortunately most of my attempts to make the driver holes smaller or larger have turned out ok. But there have been a few too many disasters and at the extreme new front panels have been made. I congratulate you on your technique to locate the router, it is so simple and obvious. I have always used a chistle and sharp knife to alter the hole size on a few pairs of VSonic speakers and all have turned out ok except mine. Unfortunately mine looked as if I used a chainsaw to do the job, very rough as I picked up some veneer which tore away.
After reading your post I made a jig as you described in about ten minutes. Then I got out the router, reset it and cut the rebate which has a nice clean edge. Fortunately the holes I cut were a neat fit (with jagged edges) with the driver so I simply enlarged the diameter of the rtebate to the same size as the rest of the rebate. Both speakers were "fixed" in less than half an hour. The most time consuming part was removing and reinstalling the drivers. Before I reinstalled the drivers I used a black felt pen to mask the larger diameter of the rebate around the edge of the new driver. It is now very hard to see that the rebate has been altered.
happy listening,
Laurie