AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Home Theater and Video => Topic started by: JLM on 25 Nov 2017, 09:07 pm
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HT is a low priority to me, the audio gear in my system includes a 10 year old $150 (no HDMI) receiver and even older audio system leftover speakers. My sub died a couple of years ago (guessing because I rarely bother turning the 'A' portion of my A/V system on), and am finally getting tired of not having deep thump. The room is 14ft x 17ft x 8ft and has an open doorway to a hall and stairwell. Size/weight, sealed/ported, finishes, high output, and continuously adjustable phase control are all secondary concerns.
Going used on a sub seems like buying trouble, besides local Craigslist and Agon are no help. From my investigations cheap subs don't go deep (don't even call it a sub if it can't reach 25 Hz), the best I've found is BIC Venturi V1220 12" Powered Subwoofer ($180 from Amazon, F3 = 23Hz) and Monoprice 10-Inch Powered Studio Multimedia Subwoofer (XLR/TRS connectors, $179 on sale, F3 = 20Hz).
TIA for any suggestions.
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A quick search pulled multiple candidates. Yamaha has a 10" powered sub, and it has a servo circuit at Best Buy that specs says it goes down to 12hz for $130. There is a Klipsch 10" that does 32hz, and a Polk that down to 23hz.
Good luck,
JCarney
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Elac 10in on sale on Amazon right now under 200. Other than that I say any of the Dayton subs at parts express will give max bang for the buck. They even have kits if you want even more value.
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Dayton subs will give you the rumble but they are about as fast as a 3 legged turtle. I used the Dayton $100 sub in the early HT days with a Hi-Fi VCR and a NEC Dolby Surround Sound Processor; the bass was pretty ill defined and now would never keep up with the bass from DVD or Blu-ray disks.
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DIY bucket sub(s)?
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article from the AudioXpress Feb 2017 issue you may find interesting:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/more-info/audioXpress-February-2017-Perazella.pdf
gab
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Jcarney, please list the link for the Yamaha that goes to 12 Hz ?!
It does not seem possible for a 10 inch to reach 12 HZ. Maybe a 15 or 16 inch SVS.
I highly doubt any sub that goes down to 25hz for under $200.
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JLM - one more thought. If the sub that has gone bad is this one:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2.html
I see you have listed it under your HT system, so why not just get an suitable amp replacement from Hsu for it? Its doubtful the problem is the driver as its usually the electronics that go first. They have a forum and I am sure someone there can help troubleshoot whats wrong with it.
That appears to be a very good sub! You probably won't be happy with a modern <$200 sub as its replacement IMO. Have to spend more $$$. You're a Brines Acoustics man after all! :D
gab
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Parts Express has the Yamaha NS-SW100 10" 100 Watt Powered Subwoofer with active servo amp for $179.95
Frequency response: 25 Hz – 180 Hz
https://www.parts-express.com/yamaha-ns-sw100-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--312-646 (https://www.parts-express.com/yamaha-ns-sw100-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--312-646)
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I would also consider this BIC F12 from parts express. Not sure if it is better than the venturi.
https://www.parts-express.com/bic-formula-f-12-12-475-watt-subwoofer--303-436#lblProductDetails
Check Ebay. I bought 2 subs on ebay without problems. Use paypal and you will be protected
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Wow, thanks for all the replies.
Yeah, have heard too much bad regarding Dayton subs.
Yeah, can't believe F3 of 12Hz from a 10" sub.
This is my house, not an ice shanty (DIY bucket subs).
Elac S10 only has F3 = 28Hz
Yamaha NS-SW100 has no phase, auto-off, or cross-over adjustment, and a captive AC cable - a little too spartan for me
BIC F12 prices are now slightly over $200 (is IMO the sub to beat in this price range)
Already threw the Hsu out (a knowledgable friend couldn't figure out what was wrong with the VTF-2). Thankfully I have a disconnect between audio and HT, so I don't compare my audio TL's to HT and really don't want to spend much on my modest HT system (I only own 8 DVD's).
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Accessories4less is always worth a quick look. They currently show 3 Yamaha subs under $200.
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Let us know what you end up with and post a review!
gab
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It’s really too bad you can’t double your budget. Options are better. Especially with Black Friday deals. Like with SVS:
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb12-nsd
They have 45 day home trials.
Best ,
Anand.
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It’s really too bad you can’t double your budget. Options are better. Especially with Black Friday deals. Like with SVS:
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb12-nsd
They have 45 day home trials.
Best ,
Anand.
Agree!
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Yes, I saw the SVS sale, but the whole AV system retailed for $800 and based on my extremely limited use of it, spending $400 for a sub is out of line. Finding a non-offensive sub (a real sub) at a bargain price is the challenge. Still hoping to find something around the holidays. Did think about buying 2 or 3 SB12-NSD subs to complete an audio swarm system.
Since my AV system and interest are so old and modest, a review probably won't happen.
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Maybe is better idea to change the speakers. I do not need a subwoofer with the music I listen -off course, not hip hop. Years ago I thought so, with the same speakers (KEF Q100, -3 dB 49 Hz - 40 kHz).
Just now,
John McLaughlin Trio - Live At The Royal Festival Hall, London (1990) (Vinyl, *******, Germany Remastered, 180g) {24-96} [FLAC]
https://www.discogs.com/John-McLaughlin-Trio-Live-At-The-Royal-Festival-Hall-London/release/7455293
I do not have problems with the electric bass played by Kai Eckhardt.
Maybe the active monitors with front bass-reflex and class AB amps like the awful Focal Alpha 80 (too big with small room) or 65. Well, now there are the same with white + blak colors, aka Limited Edition.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/focal_active_nearfield_monitors.html?oa=rat
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Here ya go. Scroll down a bit to the specs. 12hz did seem a bit of reach. May have mis-read, it does say in the specs minimum frequency is 12.
JCarney
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/yamaha-10-100w-powered-subwoofer-black/7688987.p?skuId=7688987&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=3c525dd9-96ca-4f1c-b1df-865942141e99&ksprof_id=16&ksaffcode=pg265324&ksdevice=c&lsft=ref:212,loc:2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-KzG0Jnc1wIVHp7ACh03rgWdEAQYAyABEgLJwvD_BwE
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Thanks JCarney.
I had seen it somewhere in my wanderings. Frequency response is down 10 dB at 25Hz (being ported it would probably be down +20 dB at the stated 12Hz), two options for crossover frequency - not impressed compared to the BIC Venturi V1220 or Monoprice 10-inch Powered Studio Multimedia Subwoofer.
Note that studio subs are usually specified very conservatively compared to consumer subs, better built, and offer flatter frequency response.
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You're welcome. Hope you find a good fit.
JCarney
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$199
https://emotiva.com/product/basx-s8/
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I did not know them.
The most important thing, for me, allows to regulate the phase and not only to switch between 0º and 180º like others. This greatly facilitates the subwoofer integration with the speakers.
Maybe the BasX S10, $300
https://emotiva.com/product/basx-s10/
[IMG] https://emotiva.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Frequency-Response-BasX-S10-1.png
[Customer reviews] https://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-Audio-Subwoofer-BasX-Sub10/product-reviews/B071HJCBMZ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1
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Thanks for the Emotiva suggestions, both have continuous volume, crossover, and phase controls, but -
Neither reaches F3 = 25Hz
The sub with 10 inch driver exceeds my $200 USD limit. (Before I'd spend $300 on an Emotiva I'd go for the SVS SB12-NSD that is currently discounted for $400.)
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The BIC America F-12 Subwoofer is $167.05 at Provantage but shipping brings the price to $207.50.
http://www.provantage.com/bic-america-f12~7BICA003.htm (http://www.provantage.com/bic-america-f12~7BICA003.htm)
Make a list of the subs you are interested in and who sells them, the BIC sub is available at Walmart, Parts Express, Provantage, and Amazon ($208.98) there are probably a lot more locations.
Then check all those places on Cyber Monday (tomorrow, Nov. 27th) and look for free shipping, lowest prices, etc.
Call Parts Express and see if they will price match or bring the price down to $200 including shipping, all they can say is no.
Be prepared to act fast, the super deals don't last long.
Hint: Sign up for Amazon Prime to get free 2 day shipping and cancel after 29 days like everyone else does.
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The BIC F12 certainly is a better looking sub than the BIC Venturi. Similar specs though. F12 is front firing and Venturi is down firing.
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RSL10S: https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s/
Shipping included, returns included, 30 day trial.
But...it’s $399 and the SVS SB12 is a competitor if it stays at $399. Audioholics review with measurements: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-speedwoofer-10s
And above $399, DIY starts becoming stiff competition along with all the other usuals like SVS, PSA, Rythmik, etc...
Best,
Anand.
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Thanks guys for the advice.
Anand, the RSL 'compression guide' reminds me of technology from the 70's. Infinity used it with a woofer on both sides of the internal baffle. Fried used something similar calling it a line tunnel (have a pair of circa 1990 Fried Model A 2-way floor-standers with it). I like what I read about it's musical qualities.
Still trying not to spend $400 to mate with my 10 year old $800 MSRP system, but my old sub was a $500 Hsu VTF-2, which frankly I was never overly impressed with. Just added a wonderful small but beefy sealed DIY sub (bought from a friend) to my audio system and loving the foundational musical support it adds.
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....Just added a wonderful small but beefy sealed DIY sub (bought from a friend) to my audio system and loving the foundational musical support it adds.
Pics or it never happened :wink:
Best,
Anand.
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I wouldn't rule out a used one from Craigslist. It may take awhile to find one, and most are meant for cars, but filter through all that and be patient.
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Pics or it never happened :wink:
Best,
Anand.
Sorry, but haven't had much success posting photos here. :oops: How do I do it?
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I wouldn't rule out a used one from Craigslist. It may take awhile to find one, and most are meant for cars, but filter through all that and be patient.
I live in a rural audio wasteland. The nearest city is Flint Michigan (which rivals Detroit as the #1 crime city in America and now of course after bankruptcy has bad water). The nearest audio shop (if it still exists) is 50 miles away and does mostly HT, but is small and way, way out of current trends. With my low budget/priorities it's not worth messing much or driving farther. So prospects for finding a decent well cared for used sub locally are very poor.
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Sorry, but haven't had much success posting photos here. :oops: How do I do it?
When you reply to a post, look for the tab that says “Upload and insert an image” or “Select and insert an image from your gallery”.
Then follow the instructions.
Use the preview button a few times to make sure your pics look good to others on the forum.
That’s just 1 way of uploading a photo. There are a few others.
Best,
Anand.
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Anand,
Took pics with my iPhone, plugged into my MacBook via USB, downloaded to Dropbox, came back to AC and hit reply, clicked on 'upload and insert an image', did that, got a note in lower right corner of the box to upload..., tried that but nothing happens.
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sent you a PM I am local with a very good sub to sell
Peace
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Anand,
Took pics with my iPhone, plugged into my MacBook via USB, downloaded to Dropbox, came back to AC and hit reply, clicked on 'upload and insert an image', did that, got a note in lower right corner of the box to upload..., tried that but nothing happens.
How did you get your pics up in your gallery?
Do it that way first. Then select and insert the image from your gallery.
Best,
Anand.
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I have been very satisfied with the older Martin Logan Dynamo sub that houses a 10" in a sealed configuration. Very impressive for the size and can usually be had on ebay for the $200 mark.
https://www.martinlogan.com/products/dynamo (https://www.martinlogan.com/products/dynamo)
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I have been very satisfied with the older Martin Logan Dynamo sub that houses a 10" in a sealed configuration. Very impressive for the size and can usually be had on ebay for the $200 mark.
https://www.martinlogan.com/products/dynamo (https://www.martinlogan.com/products/dynamo)
Price when discontinued = $649 therefore two strikes against it (discontinued and too expensive).
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OK, I've updated my gallery. I listen near-field from my MacBook Air and 10ft USB cable. The large off white rectangles are GIK 244 panels (six total). The Temple Audio mono-blocks and DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core are on spare piece of shelving I stained (poorly) and added spikes to (note all run from wall warts). The speakers are Brine Acoustics M18-F200 (not seen on the floor behind - fed by the white speaker cables - are 'Late Ceiling Splash' tweeters ala Duke LeJeune of Audio Kinesis). The back of my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room is my desk, drafting table, and file cabinet. Two matching bookcases are opposite of the sub. The sub driver is servo (not the amp). Here's my entire gallery to display it all:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172051)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172052)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172053)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172054)
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I have no idea how you guys can get a sub to integrate properly when placed in a corner or up against a wall. The only way I've been able to live with a subwoofer at all is with it out away from any boundary. Best results for me ar with the sub in between the speakers and on the same plane.
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I have no idea how you guys can get a sub to integrate properly when placed in a corner or up against a wall. The only way I've been able to live with a subwoofer at all is with it out away from any boundary. Best results for me ar with the sub in between the speakers and on the same plane.
Surprised me too, but as I understand that's part of the magic of using DSP. The sound is totally in-sync with either pair of the mains I use (setup in slightly different locations). Note that my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core can store up to 4 different settings, so I have one for each pair of mains with and without the sub. As I understand subs equipped with a mike and DSP do the same sort of self-calibration.
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Again: subwoofer with adjustable phase is more easy to integrate with the speakers if you do not use mic+DSP (which is the most logical and best option: speakers+sub equalization).
I think that most users do not have well integrated the subwoofer to listen music.
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personally I can't imagine a sub for less than 200 bucks even being worth integrating into ones music.
Good luck.......used perhaps ?
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maty/twitch54:
Fortunately this inquiry is for my modest (10 year old, $800 MSRP)/low priority AV system (went a year + before realizing the old sub had died and then another year + to even post this thread).
My audio system has a nice sub and DSP. But I agree completely regarding the value of DSP for subwoofer integration and that inexpensive subs just can't cut it in a good system (audio or HT).
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Did you see the $89 sub in the trading post? A Pioneer sub designed by Andrew Jones, basic controls but in your budget.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154079.msg1647309#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154079.msg1647309#new)
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Did you see the $89 sub in the trading post? A Pioneer sub designed by Andrew Jones, basic controls but in your budget.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154079.msg1647309#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154079.msg1647309#new)
You get what you pay for : https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Home/Andrew%20SW-8MK2_Single%20Sheet_new.pdf
Best,
Anand.
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You get what you pay for : https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Home/Andrew%20SW-8MK2_Single%20Sheet_new.pdf
Best,
Anand.
boy that's an understatement ! My brother in-law has a pair in his HT set up and while they are marginally OK for movies (boom - boom) they are a total POS when it comes to music. Calling it a subwoofer is a joke, it doesn't even cover the bottom octave !
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At the risk of sacrilege of Andrew Jones and of piling on, I agree with twitch54 and Anand (maybe OK for a desktop system in a tiny space, but no more). But I never liked Jones' little Pioneer speakers either.
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At the risk of sacrilege of Andrew Jones and of piling on, I agree with twitch54 and Anand (maybe OK for a desktop system in a tiny space, but no more). But I never liked Jones' little Pioneer speakers either.
I think Jones’ name is just for promotional purposes. Look. Building a strong well braced cabinet is not rocket science. It can be expensive but it’s not rocket science. The genius comes in driver design particularly the motor. Couple that with an external or plate amp with excellent DSP features and enough power that preferably is low THD and runs cool (Class D is one example), adds cost too.
Whenever you want a sub that is “small” in size, that therefore must use “small drivers” costing “nothing”, you are going to start compromising heavily.
The options I have listed earlier in my posts are the best I have seen, as such, my advice is to capitulate and raise your budget or give up the endeavor :wink:
Peace.
Best,
Anand.
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I think Jones’ name is just for promotional purposes.
Not really - there are articles and his responses in particularly in the AVS forum where he realizes the compromises that he needs to take in a low budget speaker. He's mentioned that he can't even spend an extra dollar on a crossover part for the Pioneer 22.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1278774-pioneer-s-speaker-genius-hits-low-price-point-160.html
I used to own one and after damping the cabinet, rather liked it.
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You seem to have already rejected the Martin Logan suggestion.
However, I see 4 left on Amazon for $199.
https://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Dynamo-300-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B004LRPXAU
Z Review of the sub.
Z does some pretty interesting informative and entertaining reviews.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYy9-kY5Am4
Another option - Bic America F12, $212
https://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M
And the Z Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9UNYpgTdY
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I forget Z Reviews recommended buying guide.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Zeos/comments/5b1u99/guide_subwoofers/
More info at the link, but in case it is unreachable in the future here is the list.
$100 Dayton Sub-800
$135 Dayton Sub-1000
$170 Earthquake FF6.5
$180 ELAC S10
$250 Yamaha SW210 AKA the flat sub.
$270 Klipsch R-10SW
$330 Jamo Sub 800
$400 Sunfire SDS8
$500 SVS SB-1000
I don't know why the Martin Logan 300 is not on here, as Zeos keeps them around and uses them in demos all the time.
I believe he thinks they are a pretty good for an inexpensive sub. If you watch any of his reviews they are the subs at the bottom of his doom stacks; ie a bookshelf speaker stand mounted on top of the subs.
Full disclosure, I have not heard any of these.
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Not really - there are articles and his responses in particularly in the AVS forum where he realizes the compromises that he needs to take in a low budget speaker. He's mentioned that he can't even spend an extra dollar on a crossover part for the Pioneer 22.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1278774-pioneer-s-speaker-genius-hits-low-price-point-160.html
I used to own one and after damping the cabinet, rather liked it.
Thanks for the correction. Promotional wasn’t the right word - my bad. Jones is a mastermind in maximizing the dollar as he did with the Debut B6 which I own. That being said there is only so much a small woofer (in a sub) will let you do before it makes sense to just go for another design.
Best,
Anand.
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Just to bring closure here, a fellow ACer (2oldcranks) has graciously dropped off an ARS500 sub for sale and it is more than doing the job.
Specifications:
Used (at least 15 years old), 18" x 18" x 24" ported cabinet, 15" driver, A/B 500 watt amp, rated 18 - 120 Hz +/- 2 dB, 63 pounds. Have it turned up to about 15% to nicely fill in. Even has an audio (flat response) and video (6 dB boost with subsonic filter) contour switch, which with the volume slider are front mounted. He even included the power cord and owner's manual.
The only problem I see now is some day getting it out of the basement. :P