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Class D has arrived!!!
It appears as though Class D amps are now being compared to some of the best solid state amps without apology. No more can the snobby audiophile discount the reality that Class D technology has improved dramatically over the years. Some have already kicked their 75 lb. amps to the curb in favor of a 3 lb. amp with more balls and gusto than the manliest of amps. Low cost. Superb sound. Small. No heat. High spousal approval.
Years ago, we ditched our boom boxes for Ipods. Are we now prepared to rush towards replacing our beastly power amps with Class D amps?
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Do you really want to start this debate all over again. :(
I guess 17 posts before it hits the Intergalactic Waste Bin.
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Do you really want to start this debate all over again. :(
This isn't a debate about whether Class D is superior to A or A/B or tubes or whatever. So let me clarify --
The last "revolution" in amplifier technology occurred several decades ago when transistor-based amps flooded the market. One could argue that all innovations in SS design since that time have been derivations on the same theme. Today, technology is creating smallness. In the amp world, these innovations have come in the form of Class D. So the question is -- will we see a significant proliferation of Class D amps over the next 5 - 10 years wherein the monstrous amps become dinosaurs (not because they're not as good as Class D, but due to being considered as too big and heavy).
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Time and progress do not sit still. The 21st century has arrived and Class D has matured. I've owned my share share of tube amps (mostly SETs - 300b, 2A3 etc.) and I'm not looking back. Today's Class D reveals more timber, tone and truth with the stability and power to drive the best speakers. :thumb:
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So the question is -- will we see a significant proliferation of Class D amps over the next 5 - 10 years wherein the monstrous amps become dinosaurs (not because they're not as good as Class D, but due to being considered as too big and heavy).
Absolutely! But I'll go a step further, in terms of musical purity I think the best Class D has already surpassed the best tube and conventional SS amps.
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This isn't a debate about whether Class D is superior to A or A/B or tubes or whatever. So let me clarify --
The last "revolution" in amplifier technology occurred several decades ago when transistor-based amps flooded the market. One could argue that all innovations in SS design since that time have been derivations on the same theme. Today, technology is creating smallness. In the amp world, these innovations have come in the form of Class D. So the question is -- will we see a significant proliferation of Class D amps over the next 5 - 10 years wherein the monstrous amps become dinosaurs (not because they're not as good as Class D, but due to being considered as too big and heavy).
Yes. Convenience and low cost always win in market share. Transistors took over because people were tired of replacing tubes and other components that 'baked' out of spec over time. Regardless of one's view of the tube-vs-SS debate, there are other advantages one could claim for SS, but I think the main one was convenience and compactness. Today, 'smart' speakers are growing market share by leaps and bounds while traditional 'hi-fi/high end' is becoming a fringe pursuit despite the fact that even a modest vintage system provides a dramatically better listening experience. Again, the deciding factor is convenience (and cost of entry in 2nd place) IMO.
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Class D amplifiers were invented in 1958 and are already "everywhere." The improvement in sound quality is basically just the inevitable march of progress, I guess I don't really see where there's a "revolution".
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Class D amplifiers were invented in 1958 and are already "everywhere." The improvement in sound quality is basically just the inevitable march of progress, I guess I don't really see where there's a "revolution".
An audiophile who can replace an 80 lb. amp with a comparable one that he can stick in his shirt pocket is "revolutionary" to me. That didn't happen in 1958, but it's now possible in 2018.
I think we're at the tipping point, not just with smaller gear, but with integration. Audiophiles say separates sound best. Soon, integration will be the big thing, and it's partially driven by the ability to shrink down the amp size to almost nothing.
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Audiophiles are some of the last to admit to change occurring. I'm on my 2nd Class D. My current Temple Audio mono-blocks are smaller, cheaper, and sound better than the 10 year old ones they replaced. Just evolution in design. Be flexible or cease to exist.
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Having listen to this 'Rogue' driving a pair of electrostatic Logan's I'd say Class D has come of age.......... quite impressive !
http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Medusa.htm
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Just like digital vs. analog, there will always be ss. vs. tube. :duh:
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Just like digital vs. analog, there will always be ss. vs. tube. :duh:
actually, for the most part this is a 'SS vs. SS' discussion / debate.
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Agreed on tubes- there will always be a following. I am intriqrigued regarding hybrids. I have owned Class D throught the years and a few stunk quite frankly. However my current mono blocks have stifled my urge to go back to A/B or anything else quite frankly. Definite design improvement. Not sure it's a revolution but dang sure an improvement on a established design = a viable option in anyone's system I think.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177340)
ICE is getting deep..........
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Revolution...no. Evolution....yes.
The class D approach has evolved over the years to the point where it competes well with other amp designs. Take Devialet for example: they have pushed the class D technology level to a point where it is among the absolute best among audio reproduction.
Still, there is a subset of audiophiles who are also hobbyists, where convenience takes a back seat to other aspects of the hobby. Friends of mine who are also musicians prefer the sound from the custom hand made tube amps I have to any SS gear. They feel that the tube amps just sound more like real live music. I use both tube and SS setups, and enjoy both for what each setup does well.
As a hobbyist, I don't mind having to change out power tubes every couple of years to maintain top performance. I certainly can relate to folks who prefer a lightweight care free gear approach to enjoy music.
Horses for courses.
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Revolution...no. Evolution....yes.
The class D approach has evolved over the years to the point where it competes well with other amp designs. Take Devialet for example: they have pushed the class D technology level to a point where it is among the absolute best among audio reproduction.
Still, there is a subset of audiophiles who are also hobbyists, where convenience takes a back seat to other aspects of the hobby. Friends of mine who are also musicians prefer the sound from the custom hand made tube amps I have to any SS gear. They feel that the tube amps just sound more like real live music. I use both tube and SS setups, and enjoy both for what each setup does well.
As a hobbyist, I don't mind having to change out power tubes every couple of years to maintain top performance. I certainly can relate to folks who prefer a lightweight care free gear approach to enjoy music.
Horses for courses.
+1 :thumb:
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+1 :thumb:
+2 .....
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+2 .....
+3
Funny thing. I'm actually looking at giving up my Class A integrated amp to go to a less expensive Class D amp in my AV system, entirely due to practicality and the fact that Class D has become a truly worthy option. I don't expect the Class D amp to be better than my Class A amp, BUT I think it'll be a much better "every day driver" for the family room. However, as Freo points out, my separate music system (hobbyist setup), will likely always have less convenient / less practical gear in it. It's just the nature of the beast. I really don't see this ever changing, but I won't say "never."
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An audiophile who can replace an 80 lb. amp with a comparable one that he can stick in his shirt pocket is "revolutionary" to me. That didn't happen in 1958, but it's now possible in 2018.
I think we're at the tipping point, not just with smaller gear, but with integration. Audiophiles say separates sound best. Soon, integration will be the big thing, and it's partially driven by the ability to shrink down the amp size to almost nothing.
Early B, I am not quite with you on the "shirt pocket size" but I fully agree with the weight and size loss both helping separates and integrated units. And it is not just talk. I recently sold one 50+lb amplifier and will soon sell another one. I have already purchased two integrated units that are A/B but lighter and more compact.
So far the two (expensive) straight Class-D amps I have tried in my system were unimpressive. But I have hopes for the future. I have another Class D amplifier on order. I will find out if it "sticks" or not.
Audiophiles are "graying" and I expect others will feel the need to lose weight in their systems.
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I agree with Freo as well... I remember D amps coming out many years ago and people going crazy over them, they've been saying the same thing for many years. While most of the claims are hyperbnole, I think it is true that class D has improved by leaps and bounds over the years.
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Audiophiles are some of the last to admit to change occurring. I'm on my 2nd Class D. My current Temple Audio mono-blocks are smaller, cheaper, and sound better than the 10 year old ones they replaced. Just evolution in design. Be flexible or cease to exist.
Well said! After having heard my Class D amps in my system, I couldn’t go backward.
Progress!
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I sure hope that class D displaces current SS amps. I hate how hot and heavy and wasteful my class a power amp is. If I could get something small and super efficient that sounded as good, I'd do it in a second.
I have a very simple test that a piece of gear has to pass, though. I put it in my system for a few weeks, acclimate to the sound then switch back to my original piece of gear. Is the new piece an improvement, or not? If so, it stays. If not, back it goes. I'll say this - most of the gear in my current setup has had remarkable staying power, especially for someone like me that used to churn gear at a fairly high rate.
Anyway, I used to think all class D really sucked. I don't think that any more, some of it is getting pretty good! I'm actually pretty excited to see where things go in the next few years with the technology. Between class D getting better and hirez recordings and DSD recordings getting better (and more available), it's maybe the best time in history to be an audiophile. :thumb:
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Class D has really come a long way...as with any newer technology, it takes its own time to mature and I think we might be at a point where it really is, it can sing and can only improve over time. I remember my W4S amps that I bought couple of yrs ago and regretted. Its no longer the case with the newer offerings from BO and Hypex and I am quiet happy with the sound they make, until I hear a better one, off-coarse. However, my interest is still peaked to know how they compare with the high $$$ amps from Soulutions, Darts, LAMMs, Dags, VACs, Pass XS, CH etc - I know it wouldn't be a fair comparison from the price perspective but its interesting to see from purely sound qualitywise.
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I would love to audition a Class D amp that would be on par with my SET amps.
Currently, I have a 300b, 2A3 and 45 SET amps, all built by Tube Audio Labs. Can anyone make any suggestions for comparable Class D?
One disadvantage with a Class D, is the inability to tube roll. Swapping different power tubes alone can make a tremendous difference in sound. For example, with my 2A3 SET amp playing my Omega Alnico XRS, I like to match my turntable with a AudioTechnica ART9 cartridge with KenRads Black Glass, and with my Denon 103R with Emission Labs mesh plates. Just my own observations and part of the fun the coaxing the best sound for my ears.
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Class D has really come a long way...as with any newer technology, it takes its own time to mature and I think we might be at a point where it really is, it can sing and can only improve over time. I remember my W4S amps that I bought couple of yrs ago and regretted. Its no longer the case with the newer offerings from BO and Hypex and I am quiet happy with the sound they make, until I hear a better one, off-coarse. However, my interest is still peaked to know how they compare with the high $$$ amps from Soulutions, Darts, LAMMs, Dags, VACs, Pass XS, CH etc - I know it wouldn't be a fair comparison from the price perspective but its interesting to see from purely sound qualitywise.
Not sure how much one can draw from the comparison, but I recently spent an afternoon listening to around 50k worth of DSA class a amps, preamp, and phono preamp driving speakers with a somewhat similar design to mine and was fascinated with the differences I heard compared to the AS1200 we were discussing in another thread. The class A DSA amps sounded different from the class D AS1200, no doubt. However, the DSA amp 1's did not really eclipse the quality of reproduction I heard from the AS1200, it was just different. I heard a certain detailed clarity, liveliness, and airiness from the AS1200 missing from the DSA amps and they had an integrated wholeness and ease that was better in some respects than the AS1200. A perfect amp would have integrated the best of both amps. :lol: The DSA Amp 1 mono blocks cost 25k a pair though and my mind was having some cognitive dissonance that a $1500-$2000 class D amp could deliver sound so equally compelling if not equivalent. The cost differences do have to be viewed from a proper perspective though. Most audio amplifier manufacturers are small scale affairs compared to a company like IcePower. IcePower invested many millions of dollars to develop tremendous manufacturing economy of scale compared to someone like DSA, Pass Labs, Constellation, Boulder, Soulution, etc.
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One disadvantage with a Class D, is the inability to tube roll. Swapping different power tubes alone can make a tremendous difference in sound.
I know the price points get up there compared to some tubes, unless you are talking rare NOS tubes, but what you do with tubes in a tube amp you would do using different cables (and one of the runaway threads right now here on AC would suggest input, output, and power connectors) to tune the sound to mesh the way you want it in your system. There seems to be a reasonably broad consensus that Class D amps (even the newest ones) react pretty dramatically to wiring changes.
I know saying such is kind of like throwing taboo on top of taboo from an objectivist point of view, but it hard to argue that so many different ears would be wrong even if they don't agree on which combination of stuff sounds subjectively better.
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Too bad one size does not fit all. But it might someday.
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Where do I even start on this topic. Making the generalization that a Class D amplifier has revolutionized solid state amplifier design ignore a whole bunch of issues, like WHAT linear amplifiers (Class A or A/B) are you comparing to ? Solid state amplifier design must start with the amplifying device itself. MOSFETs make great switches but have issues with basic linearity. Their use as high speed switches makes Class D ICE modules possible by rapidly (up to 6 MHz), switching complementary devices on and off using PWM and then filtering the result with a massive low pass filter. One huge byproduct is massive amounts of noise (EMI) that can adversely impact every other component in your system.
More linear FETs like the JETs used in preamps, make the use of Class D circuits unnecessary. For instance, from a voltage amplification standpoint there are no tougher tasks than a low noise MC phono preamps or wide bandwidth, low noise I/V converters in your DAC. These are almost all Class A circuits instantiated with JFETs because their outstanding linearity and low self-noise.
The linear power amplifier is a tougher problem because of the non-linearity of compatible output devices. The exception are the VFET / SIT amplifiers built in the 1980's by Yamaha, Sony, and more recently by Pass First Watt. No Class D ICE amplifier can match these amps in linearity or perceived performance, but SIT devices are rare and low in dissipation.
In the process of building his SIT amplifiers, Pass has learned how to use a new generation of much higher power density, more linear MOSFETs from IXYS, IRF, Fairchild and others. The first amplifier using these new devices is the Pass XA25. It is unmatched in linearity and uses only two devices per channel. I do not think a PWM amplifier will ever match the transient performance of the XA25, simple because of part count. Bloggers should go listen to one of these before selling Class A short.
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In the process of building his SIT amplifiers, Pass has learned how to use a new generation of much higher power density, more linear MOSFETs from IXYS, IRF, Fairchild and others. The first amplifier using these new devices is the Pass XA25. It is unmatched in linearity and uses only two devices per channel. I do not think a PWM amplifier will ever match the transient performance of the XA25, simple because of part count. Bloggers should go listen to one of these before selling Class A short.
I think part of the "revolution" as discussed here isn't exclusively arguing class D is overwhelmingly outperforming class A (or any other typology) on audio quality metrics (although the assertion is that it can now at least trade punches honestly with the best of them), but that for what can be had in a class A design to get 50 watts and 10 amps with 2 amps draw at idle (using the XA25 as example of the current state of the art in class A), one can build a darn close if not comparable class D design that can get 1200 watts, 30-odd amps, and idle at about as much power as an LED nightlight, and it can be done for say 20% of the total parts cost to manufacture.
As Tyson said earlier (I don' remember if here or in one of the Mivera threads), although a great number of audiophiles will gladly make the exchange of power consumption, weight, consumables, lack of convenience, etc. for a last 0.00000X% improvement in sound if that is what it takes, there are also a lot of folks for a lot of reasons waiting - hoping - for the day when they don't have to. For some, the word on the street is that day is today.
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Good point. Class A and B are limited in how far down they can push cost/performance because they need heatsinks and a larger power supply. Also, while not necessarily the case, Class A and B amps "traditionally" use mains-frequency transformers which inherently means a certain size and weight. Whereas Class D often comes with SMPS, which also (from what I can tell) is getting better quickly.
To the earlier point about EMI, this (it seems to me) is one of the things that has improved a lot. 15 years ago I think it was a real problem (IIRC), but I don't think it's true anymore to generalize with "One huge byproduct is massive amounts of noise (EMI)".
I'm inclined to think of the adoption curve:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/DiffusionOfInnovation.png)
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Good point. Class A and B are limited in how far down they can push cost/performance because they need heatsinks and a larger power supply. Also, while not necessarily the case, Class A and B amps "traditionally" use mains-frequency transformers which inherently means a certain size and weight. Whereas Class D often comes with SMPS, which also (from what I can tell) is getting better quickly.
To the earlier point about EMI, this (it seems to me) is one of the things that has improved a lot. 15 years ago I think it was a real problem (IIRC), but I don't think it's true anymore to generalize with "One huge byproduct is massive amounts of noise (EMI)".
I'm inclined to think of the adoption curve:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/DiffusionOfInnovation.png)
I think in the Audio world today it’s more like 80% in the laggard bracket. Innovators and early adopters are generally frowned upon. Then the early and late majority will adopt within 2 months. Following this the laggards all go belly up because you can’t teach old dogs new tricks. :)
Following this cycle we have a fresh new beginning full of enthusiasm towards the hobby once again like it’s 1958, instead of 2018. It will be like spring time in a fresh mountain valley. Flowers will be blooming, the sun will be shining, and everyone will be smiling :)
Then Eric Clapton shows up and plays this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXDf9UwHGF4
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So classD makes a nice summer amp? :lol:
Nothing wrong with classD. But everything has a flavor of some kind, so I don't expect everyone to like it, or like class A or anything else.
It's too subjective to think there is some sort of truly dominate, well, anything.
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So classD makes a nice summer amp? :lol:
Nothing wrong with classD. But everything has a flavor of some kind, so I don't expect everyone to like it, or like class A or anything else.
It's too subjective to think there is some sort of truly dominate, well, anything.
Time to listen first before judging how you like it. I compared the 1200AS directly to your amp. And it was done up with the best of the best parts. It sounded great.
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It seems like you think I was talking to you, Mike, or about your amp? I was not. But you are welcome to send me one that I can get a listen to.
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It seems like you think I was talking to you, Mike, or about your amp? I was not. But you are welcome to send me one that I can get a listen to.
If you want to buy one I can send it to you. Either that or drive up to Kelowna and come listen.
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Well, neither will happen anytime soon. I wouldnt mind stopping by our mutual friend's for a visit some time (who has your amp). I would have to start with a passport.
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Well, neither will happen anytime soon. I wouldnt mind stopping by our mutual friend's for a visit some time (who has your amp). I would have to start with a passport.
Well I have 20 acres right on the US/Canada border in Washington. Here's the fence you would need to jump :)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177367)
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They actually deploy motion trackers that look for a pattern. I will leave the fence jumping to you. I have stood in the middle gap before, where there are no trees. Its quite a site.
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They actually deploy motion trackers that look for a pattern. I will leave the fence jumping to you. I have stood in the middle gap before, where there are no trees. Its quite a site.
Oh well I'm thinking of turning this land into a resort for class D lovers. It's so peaceful, and the view is breathtaking. Can see for 80 miles.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177368)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177369)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177370)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177372)
If I do pop by for a visit. 20 minutes from Oroville.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0iqg2UanEc
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This might be important to some, while classD produces less heat, it is not (https://www.ecnmag.com/article/2010/01/exploding-efficiency-myth-class-d-amplifiers) necessarily so much more efficient that it's worth really getting excited about compared to all other amp designs.
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This might be important to some, while classD produces less heat, it is not (https://www.ecnmag.com/article/2010/01/exploding-efficiency-myth-class-d-amplifiers) necessarily so much more efficient that it's worth really getting excited about compared to all other amp designs.
For me my favourite part is the sound. Even if they weighed 100lbs, and ran my power bill up to insane levels, I'd take what I'm hearing now over anything else I've heard regardless of price.
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This might be important to some, while classD produces less heat, it is not (https://www.ecnmag.com/article/2010/01/exploding-efficiency-myth-class-d-amplifiers) necessarily so much more efficient that it's worth really getting excited about compared to all other amp designs.
While the operational efficiency of Class D amplifiers might be a lot lower than many realize, what's not addressed is the power consumption at idle with no signal.
Many of us may have their amplifiers on for x hours per day including periods where no source signal is active that could account for 50% or more of actual "on" time, and some even leave their amplifiers on 24/7.
With typical higher power Class A and A/B stereo amplifiers consuming ~ 30W to as much as several hundred watts at idle (depending on Class and bias level), the power consumption and BTU output can be significantly higher than their Class D counterparts when silent time is calculated into the equation.
Steve
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Talking about XA20.5, the big brother Pass XA60.5, is H3 predominance!!!
[Polish review] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/901-pass-laboratories-xa60-5
to English with Google:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ens&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F901-pass-laboratories-xa60-5&edit-text=&act=url
(https://audio.com.pl/i/images/8/8/8/dz0zMTI=_src_24888-max_pass_laboratories_xa605_lab02.jpg)
Noise level of the amplifier does not exceed the -90 dB ceiling, and this is a good result, as well as 112 dB dynamics. The frequency response (Figure 1) extends from 10 Hz with a barely noticeable drop to 100 kHz, at this frequency the level at 8 ohms is -2.1 dB, and at 4 ohms -2.3 dB. In the spectrum of distortions (Fig. 2), apparently the third harmonic can be seen, reaching -72 dB, further shows the fifth and seventh, but already significantly below -90 dB.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/114PA605fig09.jpg)
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https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa25-power-amplifier-measurements
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/218PXA25fig8.jpg)
Fortunately, the distortion in the midrange was predominantly the relatively innocuous third harmonic (fig.7), though at low frequencies the second harmonic was equal in level to the third (fig.8). But note the very low level of all distortion harmonics in this graph!
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Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW). It appears from the shape of the traces in these graphs that Pass specifies the XA25's power as when the THD+N is close to 0.01%.
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/218PXA25fig4.jpg)
Well, I always look for power at THD 0.1% in SS amps. An THD 1% in tube amps.
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Compare with a new DIY amplifier.
Only 20 watts. The Big Brother (BB) will have 50 watts (the problem, for now, is the heat).
Aksa Lender P-mos Hybrid Aleph (ALPHA) Amplifier you need to be registered to see the pictures
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/318102-aksa-lender-mos-hybrid-aleph-alpha-amplifier.html
[Big IMG] https://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/xrk971-Alpha-20-2.87vrms-8ohms-FFT.png
Pass XA25
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/218PXA25fig8.jpg)
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I think in the Audio world today it’s more like 80% in the laggard bracket. Innovators and early adopters are generally frowned upon.
I guess a. that's the point of the graph and b. it's really all about defining the sample population i.e. who the graph applies to. My thought was that (referencing the OP) we're more on the "early majority" phase now than "revolution" per se.
Your future resort looks lovely. Perhaps a nice way to slough off the effects of a Trans-Pacific flight (hey you never know).
Also, please don't take this the wrong way but I'd be really grateful if you could be a bit careful about promoting your products in non-commercial circles (such as this one). Thanks :thumb:
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My 2 cents:
"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...
Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..
But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....
Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?
So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...
Just sayin....
Alex
:>)
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My 2 cents:
"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...
Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..
But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....
Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?
So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...
Just sayin....
Alex
:>)
Depends on the implementation. Bel Canto's Black range of components use Hypex modules and their prices are in what most most of us would consider the lower stratospheric range I'd imagine. Same with some of Jeff Rowland's gear. Consumers with cash to spare always want to find a way to distinguish themselves from the hoi polloi and there will always be entrepreneurs eager to satisfy that desire.
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My 2 cents:
"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...
Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..
But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....
Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?
So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...
Just sayin....
Alex
:>)
Hypex mandated a minimum $9800 or so for the NC1200 based amps. There will always be a place for stuff like this in cases that cost 10-20x the parts inside them.
And there will always be a place for amps that offer the best value possible.
One will not impact the other because the markets don't overlap much.
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Depends on the implementation. Bel Canto's Black range of components use Hypex modules and their prices are in what most most of us would consider the lower stratospheric range I'd imagine. Same with some of Jeff Rowland's gear. Consumers with cash to spare always want to find a way to distinguish themselves from the hoi polloi and there will always be entrepreneurs eager to satisfy that desire.
If by "implementation" you mean a fancy case... :lol:
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We laugh, but it's a tried and true marketing technique that works. Look at the new $3000.00 Casio G-Shock. A fancy case, a few new "features" bells and whistles, same quartz movement as the $100 watches. :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177380)
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I understand the desire for smaller devices etc....
But like I tell my son, that older 2015 sports cae still is as good as it was back then as it is in 2018.
I am old school so put my class D amp in a big, thick walled billet aluminum case!!! LOL!!
I think many of us still want a few nice looking, affordable, boxes with cables and the like....glowing tubes etc..
Time will tell......
A.
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I used to be an early adopter, but I found out the hard way that all the bug and kinks are still in place with the early adoption products. Like with the iPhone - I never buy the ones with the new numbers, I always buy the "S" versions. Why? Because all the things that sucked and people bitched about in the first numbered version gets fixed in the S version.
I view digital amps the same way - it's been around for about 15 years as a serious attempt to make a very good sounding amp to rival the best SS amps (and as JohnR points out, it's been around as a technology per se a lot longer than that, even). Only NOW are they starting to get it right, IME. So I for one am happy that I sat out the last 15 years and didn't adopt anything early in this area.
I feel the same way about CD's and hirez - I came of age during the 80's, so all I ever knew was CD sound when growing up. I wish I'd been exposed to vinyl during those early days when CDs and CD players sounded pretty awful. But digital has caught up, especially in the last 5 years or so. IMO the best digital is easily on par with the best vinyl. Wasn't always the case.
It's also a lot less expensive to be a late adopter, as you can sit back and pick up "last year's best DAC" for a song versus the cost of "this year's best DAC". Same with amps, cables, etc... Just gotta be a little patient.
So, to sum up - to everyone that has been an early adopter for any/all of these technologies - thank you! Without people like you, the state of the art does not advance.
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Sometimes cheaper solutions sought are NOT the answer. Then again sometimes they are.
All new technologies require time to get it right. In time like CD I'm sure they will. Just make modular designs that can be upgraded as technology improves.
My complaint is buying and six months later a new design or improvement leaving my purchase moot. Digital especially. Fo me I would never invest money in a DAC that cannot be upgraded by user or download.
Willing to try and buy and keep the research afloat just make them modular.
charles
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Its actually the price of admission that makes early adoption possible. Some spend more on cables and power cords than what some of these amps cost....
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Its actually the price of admission that makes early adoption possible. Some spend more on cables and power cords than what some of these amps cost....
Not around here! AC is the audio cheapskate's hangout, dontchaknow? Haha - I say that as one of the cheapskates :D
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I'd be happy with a class D amp mounted on a piece of plywood if it sounds good.
FWIW, I was an early user of class D amps starting with the Bel Canto S300 and the PS Audio Trio A-100 amps. These amps used the same ICE modules to get 100 or so watts into 8 ohms. The PS Audio had the gain cell input buffer and I liked it much better than the Bel Canto.
Not going to list every class D amp I've owned, but there have been quite a few. I haven't heard the latest ICE modules, but have heard everything prior. My opinion is they always sound very good on initial listen. It's only after living with them for a while that I find them less than satisfying. My analogy is this: it would be like eating Snickers bars for every meal, after a while you feel somethings wrong with your diet. And I love Snickers bars.
I'm sure at some point I'll try an amp with the newest ICE technology and hope it satisfies for the long haul.
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I'd be happy with a class D amp mounted on a piece of plywood if it sounds good.
FWIW, I was an early user of class D amps starting with the Bel Canto S300 and the PS Audio Trio A-100 amps. These amps used the same ICE modules to get 100 or so watts into 8 ohms. The PS Audio had the gain cell input buffer and I liked it much better than the Bel Canto.
Not going to list every class D amp I've owned, but there have been quite a few. I haven't heard the latest ICE modules, but have heard everything prior. My opinion is they always sound very good on initial listen. It's only after living with them for a while that I find them less than satisfying. My analogy is this: it would be like eating Snickers bars for every meal, after a while you feel somethings wrong with your diet. And I love Snickers bars.
I'm sure at some point I'll try an amp with the newest ICE technology and hope it satisfies for the long haul.
I agree, I've grown to dislike every D amp I've tried.
And I prefer "value oriented" over "cheapskate"! :lol:
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10 years ago the best Class D sounded okay but nothing special. The stack of amps I heard back then sounded nearly identical to some of James Bongiorno's earlier work. Since then Class D has made tremendous gargantuan strides forward and reached a point where it can easily compete with anything and everything. Even the most passionate tube fanatics are starting to acknowledge this. If you want the best possible sound technology has to offer, then you need to look beyond tubes. Today's Class D has put the amplifier world on notice, there's a much higher level of fidelity to be had, previously unknown and unobtainable. The future has arrived.
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I agree, I've grown to dislike every D amp I've tried.
And I prefer "value oriented" over "cheapskate"! :lol:
You need to get out more Dave :)
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If I knew DIY, I would get this Icepower amp module to get my feet wet. 100wpc is all I need to drive my system. I am a cheapskate also.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bang-Olufsen-ICEpower-100AS2-NEW-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-ICEpower-module-2-x-100w/222847440722?hash=item33e2be1752:g:6oAAAOSwyfRai3Hy
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If I knew DIY, I would get this Icepower amp module to get my feet wet. 100wpc is all I need to drive my system. I am a cheapskate also.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bang-Olufsen-ICEpower-100AS2-NEW-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-ICEpower-module-2-x-100w/222847440722?hash=item33e2be1752:g:6oAAAOSwyfRai3Hy
Wow great price!
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I thought Ncore was the revolution. Or was it Hypex UcD. No, wait, definitely the T-amp was the revolution...
Are we there yet?
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I thought Ncore was the revolution. Or was it Hypex UcD. No, wait, definitely the T-amp was the revolution...
Are we there yet?
Just 5 more minutes.
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You need to get out more Dave :)
Yup, yup... I'm lagging! :lol:
I don't doubt I'll end up agreeing w/you and Wind Chaser...
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I have used amps with differing topology over the years. In many cases I was able to find excellent sound.
I don't personally believe that 1 topology is the best, but I do enjoy most of them.
I am currently using old school Class A/B SS, but have used nearly every other topology at some point over the years.
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The truth is that recording still lag quite a bit in being able to capture an acoustic event accurately/correctly. Even the very best recordings are pretty far away from sitting in front of live musicians with acoustic instruments in a good space. The better our playback systems get, the more these inherent flaws in the original recordings are revealed. It was this realization that got me off the "accuracy/transparency at all costs!" and more toward the "Hey, am I actually able to enjoy the majority of my recordings, despite their flaws".
One day I hope that this doesn't have to be a choice, that you can have both at the same time. I do think the gap is narrowing but we're not quite there yet. Hopefully this latest round of Class D amps gets us closer.
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The truth is that recording still lag quite a bit in being able to capture an acoustic event accurately/correctly. Even the very best recordings are pretty far away from sitting in front of live musicians with acoustic instruments in a good space. The better our playback systems get, the more these inherent flaws in the original recordings are revealed. It was this realization that got me off the "accuracy/transparency at all costs!" and more toward the "Hey, am I actually able to enjoy the majority of my recordings, despite their flaws".
One day I hope that this doesn't have to be a choice, that you can have both at the same time. I do think the gap is narrowing but we're not quite there yet. Hopefully this latest round of Class D amps gets us closer.
This is where quality DAC's and digital filters come into play. I guess this needs to be the next revolution. Affordable quality DAC's.
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If by "implementation" you mean a fancy case... :lol:
Bel Canto is likely to change some thing, and build their own inputs. Their flagship stuff certainly went overboard on that. (each amp has a DAC in it too)
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This is where quality DAC's and digital filters come into play. I guess this needs to be the next revolution. Affordable quality DAC's.
This is where Devialet is ahead of the curve. It takes inputs from both analog and digital sources, performs DSP with Speaker Active Matching (SAM), and provides periodic software updates to stay up to date.
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This is where Devialet is ahead of the curve. It takes inputs from both analog and digital sources, performs DSP with Speaker Active Matching (SAM), and provides periodic software updates to stay up to date.
Yes but needs to also sound good. I know guy who replaced a Devialet 220 with a $2000 DAC and $1500 Class D amp. Saved $10000 and has a way better sounding setup now.
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This is where Devialet is ahead of the curve. It takes inputs from both analog and digital sources, performs DSP with Speaker Active Matching (SAM), and provides periodic software updates to stay up to date.
[Polish Review] DEVIALET 400
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/devialet-400-integrated-amplifier/
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2416-devialet-400
to English with Google
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F2416-devialet-400
(https://audio.com.pl/images/5/6/0/36560-devialet_400_pomiary_fot2.jpg)
The amplifier is also a master of low distortion, figure 2 only points to the third harmonic, also below -90 dB. The distance from the noise is 82 dB and it is probably the only parameter that does not impress so much, but you have to remember that it is about high frequency noise, which we will not hear directly from the speakers.
H3 dominance but at -90 dB and SNR 82 dB
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/devialet-400-integrated-amplifier/
2015 -> $17,495
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Yes but needs to also sound good. I know guy who replaced a Devialet 220 with a $2000 DAC and $1500 Class D amp. Saved $10000 and has a way better sounding setup now.
The vast majority of reviewers would disagree with this assessment. Devialet makes very revealing systems, so good recordings sound even better, while poor recordings are revealed for what they are. Personal preferences, speakers, room placement, etc all play into what folks think sound "better". For example, my musician friends prefer the higher powered tube amps to ANY SS amps. The term "better" is a matter of personal taste for the majority of higher end equipment.
The fact that it is an integrated solution that accepts analog and digital inputs, along with DSP, all in a lightweight package, is a welcome step in the evolution of audio reproduction. Used prices for Devialet are much more in line with other high end gear.
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The vast majority of reviewers would disagree with this assessment. Devialet makes very revealing systems, so good recordings sound even better, while poor recordings are revealed for what they are. Personal preferences, speakers, room placement, etc all play into what folks think sound "better". For example, my musician friends prefer the higher powered tube amps to ANY SS amps. The term "better" is a matter of personal taste for the majority of higher end equipment.
The fact that it is an integrated solution that accepts analog and digital inputs, along with DSP, all in a lightweight package, is a welcome step in the evolution of audio reproduction. Used prices for Devialet are much more in line with other high end gear.
I agree the vast majority of reviewers would disagree. Devialet spends millions on advertising with them. This other company who this guy replaced the Devialet with components costing 1/4 the price spends no money on advertising :)
I also agree used prices are cheap. He lost $6000 in resale in only 6 months of ownership.
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The vast majority of reviewers would disagree with this assessment. Devialet makes very revealing systems, so good recordings sound even better, while poor recordings are revealed for what they are. Personal preferences, speakers, room placement, etc all play into what folks think sound "better". For example, my musician friends prefer the higher powered tube amps to ANY SS amps. The term "better" is a matter of personal taste for the majority of higher end equipment.
The fact that it is an integrated solution that accepts analog and digital inputs, along with DSP, all in a lightweight package, is a welcome step in the evolution of audio reproduction. Used prices for Devialet are much more in line with other high end gear.
This is exactly what I was referring to in a previous post. A revealing system that ends up with the majority of your recordings sounding worse (being revealed for what they are) is a very bad path to be on. That alone explains a lot of why people churn gear so much in this hobby (the other being that many people don't treat their rooms or deal with acoustics at all, and trade out amps/dacs/preamps/speakers, trying to fix an acoustic problem with gear swaps). Anyway, the whole idea that more revealing gear makes your recordings less satisfying (ie, "revealed for what they are") is a really bad paradigm to be on.
What should happen is that as gear gets more revealing, you hear more, but it's still musically satisfying. Like an old movie that's cleaned up and projected on a 4k projector - you see the flaws, but still are blown away by how awesome it looks. That should be the same experience we have with audio. The fact that it's not true for many in this hobby is a rather serious problem, IMO.
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In a revealing system that’s actually good it can be extremely revealing yet also have no listening fatigue. Even with mediocre recordings. Talk to folks who have MSB Select 2’s.
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In a revealing system that’s actually good it can be extremely revealing yet also have no listening fatigue. Even with mediocre recordings. Talk to folks who have MSB Select 2’s.
That's how I feel about my Beyer T1 headphones - extremely revealing and zero listening fatigue. Of course I drive it with a tube amp :D
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That's how I feel about my Beyer T1 headphones - extremely revealing and zero listening fatigue. Of course I drive it with a tube amp :D
What’s your reference point for transparency? Without a well known reference point for transparency such as the MSB Select DAC 2 connected headphone direct, it’s hard to determine if what you’re used to is actually transparent. Hell the IPhone would sound unbelievable if all you ever heard was Sony Walkmans from the 80’s. .
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What’s your reference point for transparency? Without a well known reference point for transparency such as the MSB Select DAC 2 connected headphone direct, it’s hard to determine if what you’re used to is actually transparent. Hell the IPhone would sound unbelievable if all you ever heard was Sony Walkmans from the 80’s. .
Reference point is going to the orchestra and other live chamber music and solo instrument recitals. I listen to 90% classical, so I always judge any system vs how it sounds in a live performance from good seats.
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Reference point is going to the orchestra and other live chamber music and solo instrument recitals. I listen to 90% classical, so I always judge any system vs how it sounds in a live performance from good seats.
So when you listen to something like the MSB Select 2, does it sound less like the orchestra than your tube setup, or more?
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Haven't heard the select, I have heard the Analog DAC though and it's the best DAC I've heard so far.
For getting closer or not to the sound of live, tubes do produce tone more accurately than SS, at least in my experience. On the other hand, really good SS amps get the dynamics and drive of live music in a way that tubes can't. Overall tubes sound nicer, but less lively, versus live acoustic music. So it's a trade off. I'd LOVE for it to not be a trade off, I'd love for something to come along and just crush it from a tonal accuracy AND a drive/dynamics perspective. But nope.
And the fault may not even be in the playback system as much as it is in the recording chain. As far as I can tell, modern recordings are pretty good at capturing things like dynamics, fine details, and spatial information. But their weakness is a consistent (and persistent) draining of tonal color. Tubes in the playback chain IME restore some of the lost color and tone, but at a price. The price is usually in terms of very fine details, drive and ultimate transparency.
I think if there were a way to capture well the types of colors and subtle tonal shadings I'm talking about in the original recording, then I'd be very very happy to get my system as close to "straight wire, with gain" as possible. But that's not the reality. Not even "good" classical recordings capture these things I'm talking about, the thousand subtle shadings that really give a performance life and soul. So, tubes are in my system to redress this issue (even though I resisted using tubes for a long, long time when I was younger).
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The Analog is a universe away from the Select 2. Anyways once you have experience with the Select 2 headphones direct please share your impressions. Based on what I’ve heard from folks with the experience, the sound can’t be beat. And when you have sound at that caliber you no longer need downstream gear that colors the signal for great sound. Guys who own that DAC end up ditching the tubes.
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The Analog is a universe away from the Select 2. Anyways once you have experience with the Select 2 headphones direct please share your impressions. Based on what I’ve heard from folks with the experience, the sound can’t be beat. And when you have sound at that caliber you no longer need downstream gear that colors the signal for great sound. Guys who own that DAC end up ditching the tubes.
Oh, is that what you use?
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Oh, is that what you use?
No I just have a few clients that have tried everything and stopped at that DAC. And it’s the reference I use for my DAC’s. Without a solid reference point of the best, you simply have no idea what’s possible. Big egos simply don’t make up for hands on experience.
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No I just have a few clients that have tried everything and stopped at that DAC. And it’s the reference I use against for my DAC’s. Without a solid reference point of the best, you simply have no idea what’s possible.
Oh wait, I DID hear the MSB at RMAF last year. They were in the room with the YG Acoustic speakers if I remember correctly. Yes, very good sound. But still fell very, very short in the areas I'm talking about. Of course it might have been those speakers, to say I'm not a fan of the YG Acoustic sound is putting it rather mildly :D
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Oh wait, I DID hear the MSB at RMAF last year. They were in the room with the YG Acoustic speakers if I remember correctly. Yes, very good sound. But still fell very, very short in the areas I'm talking about. Of course it might have been those speakers, to say I'm not a fan of the YG Acoustic sound is putting it rather mildly :D
You can’t judge a DAC based on the entire system setup in mediocre show conditions. Get one in your own listening room for a few months. Then compare with 200k of competitive DAC’s over the same time frame in your own system. After that share your experience. Folks with this level of experience are the folks who’s opinions
I put a lot of weight on.
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You can’t judge a DAC on the entire system setup in mediocre show conditions. Get one in your own listening room for a few months. Then compare with 200k of competitive DAC’s over the same time frame in your own system. After that share your experience. Folks with this level of experience are the folks who’s opinions
I put a lot of weight on.
That's true. So can you share your experience doing that in your system?
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That's true. So can you share your experience doing that in your system?
I’m Not claiming I have. But you are claiming tubes are required for the best sound, without having any experience with good DAC’s or good class D. However the folks who I know who have experience with everything, don’t have any tube in their system anymore. They did at one time. But now they have the experience with today’s top SS gear. So they no longer have the tubes in their system. The reason why is because they have the experience.
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I’m Not claiming I have. But you are claiming tubes are required for the best sound, without having any experience with good DAC’s or good class D. However the folks who I know who have experience with everything, don’t have any tube in their system anymore. They did at one time. But now they have the experience with today’s top SS gear. So they no longer have the tubes in their system.
That's certainly what you claim. Facts not in evidence, however.
Edit: You know, it doesn't even matter. Until/unless you've put things in your own system and done your own comparisons, your opinions are all 2nd hand hearsay. At least I arrived at my opinions honestly, by putting actual gear into my own system and then comparing it to a real reference (ie, live performances).
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That's certainly what you claim. Facts not in evidence, however.
Edit: You know, it doesn't even matter. Until/unless you've put things in your own system and done your own comparisons, your opinions are all 2nd hand hearsay. At least I arrived at my opinions honestly, by putting actual gear into my own system and then comparing it to a real reference (ie, live performances).
I have other gear in my system I have experience with. And none of it has tubes. The same folks who own this top SS gear also have experience with this same gear I have. And they also don’t use tubes with it. And I’m talking about guys who have owned $100’s of thousands in tube gear over their lives.
Bottom line is if you actually have experience with top level gear, tubes are dead.
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I have other gear in my system I have experience with. And none of it has tubes. The same folks who own this top SS gear also have experience with this same gear I have. And they also don’t use tubes with it. And I’m talking about guys who have owned $100’s of thousands in tube gear over their lives.
Bottom line is if you actually have experience with top level gear, tubes are dead.
I think you mean "tubes are dead if you can afford a $90k DAC". Haha. Or not. Don't you see how these types of sweeping generalizations you make are... you know what, never mind. You've obviously made up your mind a long time ago on this subject and can't even consider that you might be wrong, even a little bit. It's pointless to talk to people like you once you've dug your heels in. It wouldn't be quite as maddening if you'd ACTUALLY HEARD the gear that you keep going on and on about. But you haven't. So I'm not going to argue with you about some second hand opinion that you got from some 3rd party person. That's insane.
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This all started because I suggested that what we need is a revolution of top quality DAC’s at affordable prices. As in MSB Select 2 quality for $2000-3000. When this happens, there will be very few folks left in the tube camp. I can assure you of this.
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To add I’m not so arrogant to claim that I have near the level of experience of the folks I consult when seeking advice in this area. This is why I seek the experience of folks with the experience when looking for solid feedback on the topic.
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I have heard the Select II in two show conditions with MSB's monoblock amps and YGs. On both conditions, I couldn't make myself to believe I would ever want to own that system, even if I had the money - its has that hyper details to it. Its possible that the YGs aren't a good match with them but that begs the question if you are demoing a ultra high end system, there is no excuse for manufacturers not to match gears and setup things properly - just the next room (though I don't remember which one) sounded fabulous. I am sure Select II is a fabulous DAC especially at that price range and I would like to listen to it one day in a good setup.
Btw, MSB is coming up with a more affordable DAC and Transport:
http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/premier-dac-features/
http://www.msbtechnology.com/transports/
On a different context: there is absolutely no substitute than treating the room and speaker positioning. No amps, preamps, dacs, sources, cables can give you so much reward as you would get by treating your room and placing speakers in the correct position :)
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This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.
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This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.
There were quiet a bit of low priced systems that sounded fabulous in the SAME show conditions. There wasn't any magic wand in their rooms to make their sound better than what it could have been without.
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This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.
Which you just admitted you HAVEN'T DONE. Dude, you don't even have any first hand experience with anything you're promoting here. I might have only heard the MSB at a show, BUT AT LEAST I'VE HEARD IT. Which is more than you can say, hahahaha. :duh: :lol:
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There were quiet a bit of low priced systems that sounded fabulous in the SAME show conditions. There wasn't any magic wand in their rooms to make their sound better than what it could have been without.
Regardless of the room, when you’re auditioning a complete system, you’re not just hearing 1 component. It’s very easy to mess things up. I once went to a Devialet 400/Focal Utopia demo where there was $80000 worth of gear setup. It sounded like nails on a chalkboard. So I went to inspect the system and they had some cheap Chinese digital transport feeding the Devialet via SPDIF. The rep there had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Had I setup that system it could have sounded 100x better.
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Which you just admitted you HAVEN'T DONE. Dude, you don't even have any first hand experience with anything you're promoting here. I might have only heard the MSB at a show, BUT AT LEAST I'VE HEARD IT. Which is more than you can say, hahahaha. :duh: :lol:
I have experience with the only other DAC this same guy uses to listen to music. So I know the quality level the Select is at.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153645.msg1642935#msg1642935
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Dev
I assume that both of those MSB/YG demos you heard were Alex's setups? If so his only other "cost comparable" speakers would have been Wilson and they were probably showing with Paragon. My experience is that people with $125,000 plus DAC's in their systems or showrooms are never going to admit that they are anything but the "greatest." At some point in the near future when they think us common people have forgotten they will move on to the next great DAC. With people like Mike L. it is about every six to nine months. He is just Srajen without a web publication. Until then they need to have company to justify their credit balance so not people I rely on for what "good sound" is. I make my own decisions.
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Regardless of the room, when you’re auditioning a complete system, you’re not just hearing 1 component. It’s very easy to mess things up. I once went to a Devialet 400/Focal Utopia demo where there was $80000 worth of gear setup. It sounded like nails on a chalkboard. So I went to inspect the system and they had some cheap Chinese digital transport feeding the Devialet via SPDIF. The rep there had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Had I setup that system it could have sounded 100x better.
Do you really think a company as MSB is would cheap out on any electronics in their setup ? Let me know in the pics which one you see was cheap :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177412)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177413)
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Dev
I assume that both of those MSB/YG demos you heard were Alex's setups? If so his only other "cost comparable" speakers would have been Wilson and they were probably showing with Paragon. My experience is that people with $125,000 plus DAC's in their systems or showrooms are never going to admit that they are anything but the "greatest." At some point in the near future when they think us common people have forgotten they will move on to the next great DAC. With people like Mike L. it is about every six to nine months. He is just Srajen without a web publication. Until then they need to have company to justify their credit balance so not people I rely on for what "good sound" is. I make my own decisions.
Well that all depends if they are shills posing as innocent clients, or actual clients. Mike L is running a dealer funded show room. His role is to pose as the “innocent wealthy client” on forums. Ever notice he only posts on 2 dealer run forums?
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Do you really think a company as MSB is would cheap out on any electronics in their setup ? Let me know in the pics which one you see was cheap :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177412)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177413)
Even the best of gear can be setup bad. Bottom line is you can’t claim to have experience with 1 component alone until you do. Maybe it was the speakers you didn’t like.
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I have experience with the only other DAC this same guy uses to listen to music. So I know the quality level the Select is at.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153645.msg1642935#msg1642935
So one guy likes your DAC and also likes the MSB Select DAC. And from that single data point you derive "all tube gear is history"? Again, it's not even your first hand experience!
Have you heard the Lampizator Pacific DAC? Or the ModWright Elyse? I heard both at RMAF last year, and both rooms sounded far, far better than the MSB room. That's a fact. Based on actual, you know, FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. Something you seem to be sorely lacking.
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I dont know where SS and Class D will end in the future, but in 500 years from now tube amps will still exist, not because the sound is better but because the sound is different from other devices and pleasing to the human ear.
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So one guy likes your DAC and also likes the MSB Select DAC. And from that single data point you derive "all tube gear is history"? Again, it's not even your first hand experience!
Have you heard the Lampizator Pacific DAC? Or the ModWright Elyse? I heard both at RMAF last year, and both rooms sounded far, far better than the MSB room. That's a fact. Based on actual, you know, FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. Something you seem to be sorely lacking.
Classic cars are still around. People still collect them. You can love a 63 Corvette all you want, but if you try to tell me it outperforms a 2018 corvette, you’re delusional.
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Dev
I assume that both of those MSB/YG demos you heard were Alex's setups? If so his only other "cost comparable" speakers would have been Wilson and they were probably showing with Paragon. My experience is that people with $125,000 plus DAC's in their systems or showrooms are never going to admit that they are anything but the "greatest." At some point in the near future when they think us common people have forgotten they will move on to the next great DAC. With people like Mike L. it is about every six to nine months. He is just Srajen without a web publication. Until then they need to have company to justify their credit balance so not people I rely on for what "good sound" is. I make my own decisions.
No, Alex setup (Alma audio) had two rooms and none of them were using MSB. One room had the smaller and other had bigger YGs and both sounded very good. I much preferred the bigger YGs with Lumin/ARC Ref 10/Dags Amp room - played my own music and was great to listen to.
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You can't tell me how it feels to drive either of those cars, IF YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY DRIVEN THEM. Same with audio - you can't say how ANYTHING SOUNDS, if you HAVEN'T ACTUALLY LISTENED TO IT. Otherwise it's all just "well yeah, look at these measurements! And some other guy that you don't know totally likes SS better than tubes and he's rich!!" SRSLY? Weak.
AND your analogy is wrong. Comparing cars is stupid. A better analogy is musical instruments. Saying that a "modern" violin sounds better than a Stradivarius because "technology has improved", and you have never heard a Strad to compare to a modern violin is about the same thing you're saying here. Baseless and idiotic.
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Mike
I don't know what Mike L. is other than from my research pretty damn wealthy in his own right. If that affluence and his contacts give him the ability to get loaner equipment like Fremer, Valin, Harley and others then good for him. My point in including him as that he changes his mind about what is best like I change socks so I don't pay attention to him for that reason alone and don't care about the other. I also don't pay attention to Harley and Valin at all and rarely to Fremer. The Dealers touting the Select II as the second coming are also not credible references as they are on the hook for over 50% of the retail just to have it in their showrooms and I guarantee you are not "loaning it out " for home demos so to suggest that is what Tyson or anybody else should do is foolish. What I do know is my opinions are based on gear I have actually heard in controlled environments like my home or those of others whose systems I know. Making claims about the positives or negatives of any piece of audio gear under any other circumstance is reckless at best.
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Even the best of gear can be setup bad. Bottom line is you can’t claim to have experience with 1 component alone until you do. Maybe it was the speakers you didn’t like.
Nope, I liked YGs in other Rooms very much. As I said earlier, there is SIMPLY no excuse for manufacturers NOT to setup and match their gears properly - that's really pathetic if you have to listen to a $90k DAC in your own room in order to determine if you like it or not.
Fyi, these images are from my own show reports posted on AS (not stolen).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177414)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177415)
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You can't tell me how it feels to drive either of those cars, IF YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY DRIVEN THEM. Same with audio - you can't say how ANYTHING SOUNDS, if you HAVEN'T ACTUALLY LISTENED TO IT. Otherwise it's all just "well yeah, look at these measurements! And some other guy that you don't know totally likes SS better than tubes and he's rich!!" SRSLY? Weak.
AND your analogy is wrong. Comparing cars is stupid. A better analogy is musical instruments. Saying that a "modern" violin sounds better than a Stradivarius because "technology has improved", and you have never heard a Strad to compare to a modern violin is about the same thing you're saying here. Baseless and idiotic.
Once again come back when you have experience with SOTA modern tech.
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Once again come back when you have experience with SOTA modern tech.
Look who's talking! Why don't you do the same.
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Mike
I don't know what Mike L. is other than from my research pretty damn wealthy in his own right. If that affluence and his contacts give him the ability to get loaner equipment like Fremer, Valin, Harley and others then good for him. My point in including him as that he changes his mind about what is best like I change socks so I don't pay attention to him for that reason alone and don't care about the other. I also don't pay attention to Harley and Valin at all and rarely to Fremer. The Dealers touting the Select II as the second coming are also not credible references as they are on the hook for over 50% of the retail just to have it in their showrooms and I guarantee you are not "loaning it out " for home demos so to suggest that is what Tyson or anybody else should do is foolish. What I do know is my opinions are based on gear I have actually heard in controlled environments like my home or those of others whose systems I know. Making claims about the positives or negatives of any piece of audio gear under any other circumstance is reckless at best.
The reason I trust the MSB Select is good is I have an honest client who’s tried everything who claims it is. And I know he’s honest because I haven’t paid him a penny to share feedback on my DAC.
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Look who's talking! Why don't you do the same.
I already do. I already did a survey of 35 datapoint’s on top DAC’s from over 30 clients. But of course your inexperienced ears can hear better than 60 of theirs right?
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Nope, I liked YGs in other Rooms very much. As I said earlier, there is SIMPLY no excuse for manufacturers NOT to setup and match their gears properly - that's really pathetic if you have to listen to a $90k DAC in your own room in order to determine if you like it or not.
Fyi, these images are from my own show reports posted on AS (not stolen).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177414)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177415)
I still say until you have experience with each component in your own system you can’t judge it.
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Mike,
you claimed earlier that Aavik dealers are netting $20k profit in their pocket by selling one of their Amps. I see more reason why Select II is touted to be the ultimate DAC from different reviewers and dealers.
General question - Does one really think a DAC can cost $90k retail ? come on man, its a digital to analog converter - even if you wrap everything with gold, its not going to cost that much.
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I already do. I already did a survey of 35 datapoint’s on top DAC’s from over 30 clients. But of course your inexperienced ears can hear better than 60 of theirs right?
So you defend your lack of first hand experience by..... positing more 2nd hand experiences from other people. Are you serious? Hahahaha that is some funny shit. Oh wait, after this post, can you tell me some more how you let other people's opinions and judgements stand in for your own personal experience?
Next thing you'll tell me that Wagyu beef is THE BEST because you have a rich client that loves it, even though you've never tried it. You can TRUST them because they weren't paid to review the Wagyu beef. Jesus.
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So you defend your lack of first hand experience by..... positing more 2nd hand experiences from other people. Are you serious? Hahahaha that is some funny shit. Oh wait, after this post, can you tell me some more how you let other people's opinions and judgements stand in for your own personal experience?
Next thing you'll tell me that Wagyu beef is THE BEST because you have a rich client that loves it, even though you've never tried it. You can TRUST them because they weren't paid to review the Wagyu beef. Jesus.
This is the difference between being arrogant, and knowing you can’t possibly have the 1000 years experience with top level gear the 60 ears I’m basing my information on has.
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Mike,
you claimed earlier that Aavik dealers are netting $20k profit in their pocket by selling one of their Amps. I see more reason why Select II is touted to be the ultimate DAC from different reviewers and dealers.
General question - Does one really think a DAC can cost $90k retail ? come on man, its a digital to analog converter - even if you wrap everything with gold, its not going to cost that much.
Dev,
I’m not justifying the cost. In fact I’m on a mission to match this for $5000. However I sincerely believe based on my research this is among the top DAC’s available in the market today. If you want to make the best gear, you need to have a reference point to use. Otherwise there’s no way to know where you’re at.
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This is the difference between being arrogant, and knowing you can’t possibly have the 1000 years experience with top level gear the 60 ears I’m basing my information on has.
You mean the 60 ears that aren't your own :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So, since you're so adamant that one must use reference level gear, in one's own system, to decide if the best SS has "wiped out" tubes, what gear top flight gear have you used in your own system to justify this opinion? Besides the stuff you make, I mean.
And you never answered me about whether you've heard the top of the line Lampizator DAC or the top of the line Modwright DAC. Although I don't suppose it really matters, since you HAVEN'T HEARD the DAC you say bests everything else (the MSB). So you don't have a basis of actual comparison.
I mean seriously, how can you design a piece of gear and know how it sounds vs other high end gear, if you've never heard the very gear you're comparing it against? That's insane.
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Dev,
I’m not justifying the cost. In fact I’m on a mission to match this for $5000. However I sincerely believe based on my research this is among the top DAC’s available in the market today. If you want to make the best gear, you need to have a reference point to use. Otherwise there’s no way to know where you’re at.
Quoting for comedy - I mean I just can't oh hahaha, it's too much :rotflmao:
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Dev,
I’m not justifying the cost. In fact I’m on a mission to match this for $5000. However I sincerely believe based on my research this is among the top DAC’s available in the market today. If you want to make the best gear, you need to have a reference point to use. Otherwise there’s no way to know where you’re at.
I agree that you need a top quality reference but that particular reference doesn't seem to do the thing to my ears. As I said, I really need to hear in a good setup. Again, there is absolutely no question about your mission and really appreciate it for what you have contributed thus far and have been following your DAC thread with great interest even though I own a purestream :thumb:
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My personal experience with MSB DACs though it has been a few years is that they are very detail oriented at all costs so not my cup of tea at all. So there is no way I am going to spend $90,000 to $140.000 (depending on options) to find out if they have changed their philosophy. I won't even drive the distance to a dealer I know well to hear it in a system I am unfamiliar with other than to know it is made up of components that Valin loves. And as we have seen since it's introduction the manufacturer will soon compete with itself at a lower price point making re-sale value of the top line component risky at best. I am content with where I am but will give the Mivera amp a fair shake in the system it was intended for and will post my impressions positive or negative. It will be my fourth Class D amp so not a rookie with the technology. I will even give it a listen in the other one but I don't think it will displace what is there but I may be wrong and will admit it if that occurs.
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Wait till those new opamps arrive. :)
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Wait till those new opamps arrive. :)
you mean the Fivefish ?
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you mean the Fivefish ?
Yes. But even though they aren’t my products, it’s off topic for here. Better to discuss in my DAC thread.
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You mean the 60 ears that aren't your own :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So, since you're so adamant that one must use reference level gear, in one's own system, to decide if the best SS has "wiped out" tubes, what gear top flight gear have you used in your own system to justify this opinion? Besides the stuff you make, I mean.
And you never answered me about whether you've heard the top of the line Lampizator DAC or the top of the line Modwright DAC. Although I don't suppose it really matters, since you HAVEN'T HEARD the DAC you say bests everything else (the MSB). So you don't have a basis of actual comparison.
I mean seriously, how can you design a piece of gear and know how it sounds vs other high end gear, if you've never heard the very gear you're comparing it against? That's insane.
I’m not going to share the list of DAC’s my clients have compared to mine. This isn’t the place for it. And it really doesn’t matter. Because that’s a previous gen DAC. It will be soon enough that brand new datapoints will be shared by dozens here on AC. So sit back and enjoy the ride to enlightenment:)
I’m finished here.
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I’m not going to share the list of DAC’s my clients have compared to mine. This isn’t the place for it. And it really doesn’t matter. Because that’s a previous gen DAC. It will be soon enough that brand new datapoints will be shared by dozens here on AC. So sit back and enjoy the ride to enlightenment:)
I’m finished here.
Get back to us once you've had a chance to hear some reference level gear.
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About fatigue only I can say that my cheaper and tweaked system has been becoming increasingly revealing as I have been reducing my problems with DC, ripple, noise and interferences (RF/EMI). I do not have fatigue. The sound fills the room and I get excited with more excellent recordings than before.
Usually very great vinyl rips from old analog masters made with tubes -> H2 predominance is my hypothesis -without measures is only a hypothesis. Better without noise and nasty harmonics.
Very good sound without emotion is not the same.
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Just a couple random thoughts here - hope that they can be digested without provoking further rounds of bickering :flame:
As to Freo-1 and bavmike's back and forth over Diavialet's relative merits, Mike's right that Divialet isn't everyone's cup of tea. I've known of several owners that moved on from that brand. That said, people move on because it's hard to separate "different" from "better" and we don't always immediately perceive what we really need or want. Something about the human brain craves new stimuli and our excitement over new audio gear definitely falls into that category of experience. Some people (with spare cash) move from gear to gear like Jay Leno goes through cars because they're addicted to change and can't settle down. I guess we're all in pursuit of that "absolute sound" that will remain an elusive goal. As to Mike's implication that Divialet must be deficient because it's resale value plummets, that's no meaningful metric IMO. Pretty much ALL upper tier gear has a similar depreciation curve from what I see. I'm not complaining though, I'd never have a system I appreciate as much if others didn't churn gear and sell for 50% off. :lol:
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Just a couple random thoughts here - hope that they can be digested without provoking further rounds of bickering :flame:
As to Freo-1 and bavmike's back and forth over Diavialet's relative merits, Mike's right that Divialet isn't everyone's cup of tea. I've known of several owners that moved on from that brand. That said, people move on because it's hard to separate "different" from "better" and we don't always immediately perceive what we really need or want. Something about the human brain craves new stimuli and our excitement over new audio gear definitely falls into that category of experience. Some people (with spare cash) move from gear to gear like Jay Leno goes through cars because they're addicted to change and can't settle down. I guess we're all in pursuit of that "absolute sound" that will remain an elusive goal. As to Mike's implication that Divialet must be deficient because it's resale value plummets, that's no meaningful metric IMO. Pretty much ALL upper tier gear has a similar depreciation curve from what I see. I'm not complaining though, I'd never have a system I appreciate as much if others didn't churn gear and sell for 50% off. :lol:
Good, thoughtful post.
I've learned over the years to temper judgmental conclusions when it comes to high end audio. The fact that someone likes or doesn't like a given audio setup is their "opinion" based on the entire system and the listening environment, period. It has no merit regarding the quality of the gear under evaluation. I've lost count of how may times I've listened to systems that cost $$$ that just did not sound good. Yet, some of the same equipment in other applications sounded just fine.
Tyson's earlier post about listening to mostly classical music mirrors my current listening habits. Depending on the recording, tubes sometimes sound better, but with other recordings, the Devialet 400 sounds better.
I've gone through a lot of audio gear over the years, and the Devialet was the first SS setup I've heard that I din't feel the need to change out in six months. The Devialet/Dynaudio combination is among the most musical I've ever heard. The SAM feature helps a lot. Photon46's observation about obtaining this type of gear second hand is bang on.
The hobbyist aspect is one that is often overlooked. My tube journey eventually wound up going the DIY route, which INHO, is the best way to enjoy tubes. This allows for use of high quality parts (transformers, caps, resistors) to combine with with high quality tubes outside of the normal audio tubes, such as TV/Radio tubes. I have a DIY preamp that is based on a Thomas Meyer clone of a 6AH4 tube which is extremely quiet and holographic sounding. The power amps use 6BL7 tubes as drivers and phase splittes, and 1625/6883B power tubes. The sound from this gear is outstanding, especially jazz/rock/blues. Classical also is very enjoyable, as it does very well with reproducing string instruments. The hobbyist aspect also makes this a fun and enjoyable approach to listening to music. For anyone who is inclined, it is well worth investigating this option. I started out by rebuilding old Dyna preamps and amps, and went from there.
At the end of the day, folks need to trust their own ears when it comes to audio. While I enjoy reading reviews, need to take them with a grain of salt, and go with your own instincts.
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Freo-1, you are absolutely right about tubes and the hobbyist aspect. A lot of us like the hands on tweaking and experimenting that some tube gear inspires. I don't think tube gear is going away any time soon if for no other reason than the sight of a rack full of equipment with glowing tubes triggers all sorts of pleasant emotions. Even the younger beginning audiophiles I've met are fascinated with the idea of tubes. Tube audio has a sort of steampunk aesthetic that appeals to a certain number of us.
I also completely agree with that observation that whether a given bit of kit sounds good, great, or indifferent often depends on system context. Just as you mentioned, I've heard the same piece of gear sound blah in one context and great in another. Another thing that seems really hard for many of us to accept is that there's great variability in what each of us perceives as "correct" sound. There's as much variability there as there are in the realms of religion, politics, child rearing, sexual attraction, etc. We seem to be as quick to condemn someone for different tastes in audio as we are in those other matters as well. :roll: Listening to the chatter at audio shows confirms that quickly. The high wattage solid state, wall of sound MBL and Martin Logan room lovers are nattering away about the the deaf ones who love the single driver flea watt systems, the tube lovers are shaking their heads at class D rooms, and so it goes.
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Freo-1, you are absolutely right about tubes and the hobbyist aspect. A lot of us like the hands on tweaking and experimenting that some tube gear inspires. I don't think tube gear is going away any time soon if for no other reason than the sight of a rack full of equipment with glowing tubes triggers all sorts of pleasant emotions. Even the younger beginning audiophiles I've met are fascinated with the idea of tubes. Tube audio has a sort of steampunk aesthetic that appeals to a certain number of us.
I also completely agree with that observation that whether a given bit of kit sounds good, great, or indifferent often depends on system context. Just as you mentioned, I've heard the same piece of gear sound blah in one context and great in another. Another thing that seems really hard for many of us to accept is that there's great variability in what each of us perceives as "correct" sound. There's as much variability there as there are in the realms of religion, politics, child rearing, sexual attraction, etc. We seem to be as quick to condemn someone for different tastes in audio as we are in those other matters as well. :roll: Listening to the chatter at audio shows confirms that quickly. The high wattage solid state, wall of sound MBL and Martin Logan room lovers are nattering away the the deaf ones who love the single driver flea watt systems, the tube lovers are shaking their heads at class D rooms, and so it goes.
+1 :thumb:
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Well it certainly appears that way with new innovations with chip amps, class"D". What we listen to is a "System" not an individual component.
In my world tonality and harmonic structure as in live is my goal setting up a system. Now live sound can vary as well depending on where the recording venue was.
Some like a sound of a warm room some a bright room. Then genre of music in that room. The key to our system set up is to know what "room" you prefer music in. Then one can start the journey.
Amp/speaker selection is IMHO the most important. There needs to be a synergy of load required, wattage and character. I apply the rule of opposites. Bright amp then warm speaker and visa versa. Having limited access to different components makes the chase harder. We do what we can.
Let the revolution continue we all win.
charles
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Amp/speaker selection is IMHO the most important. There needs to be a synergy of load required, wattage and character. I apply the rule of opposites. Bright amp then warm speaker and visa versa.
charles
It's interesting that, to my ears, the AS1200 module amp I just acquired turns that idea on it's head. The Tidal Piano Ceras I listen too are really revealing speakers with ceramic drivers and all previous amps I'd preferred were of the warmer persuasion. The AS1200 has tremendous clarity and I could imagine that with lower accuracy bright speakers it could be too much of a good thing. However, with speakers that have clarity without much distortion and good phase accuracy, it's just more of a good thing. Admittedly the one downside to that is that inferior recordings have nowhere to hide and it's all too easy to hear recording inadequacies. Even then, deficiencies aren't magnified and made more unappealing, they're just evident.
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It's interesting that, to my ears, the AS1200 module amp I just acquired turns that idea on it's head. The Tidal Piano Ceras I listen too are really revealing speakers with ceramic drivers and all previous amps I'd preferred were of the warmer persuasion. The AS1200 has tremendous clarity and I could imagine that with lower accuracy bright speakers it could be too much of a good thing. However, with speakers that have clarity without much distortion and good phase accuracy, it's just more of a good thing. Admittedly the one downside to that is that inferior recordings have nowhere to hide and it's all too easy to hear recording inadequacies. Even then, deficiencies aren't magnified and made more unappealing, they're just evident.
What are you using for a DAC?
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[Review] Tidal Piano Cera Loudspeakers
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143:tidal-piano-cera-loudspeakers&
Frequency response in Jeff Fritz's Music Vault listening room (smoothed to 1/6th octave):
[IMG] http://www.soundstageultra.com/images/stories/equipment/201107_tidal_inroom.gif
http://www.aaudioimports.com/UploadImages/new-TIDAL-Piano-Cera_1.pdf
nominal impedance: 4-6 Ohm
frequency response: very linear, F3 = 32 Hz
Incredible, in the specs there are not the sensitivity! Only these audiophile words:
efficiency:
since several unrealistic numbers of competitors we don't want to confuse clients by comparing non saying numbers on paper. Therefore it is: "Good efficiency, easy to drive also with tube amps / SET'S".
:duh:
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To compare with DIY (or not) Plutone speakers:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Plutone.html
We have ALL information less the values of crossover components. And graphs, crossover diagrams and photos.
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To compare with DIY (or not) Plutone speakers:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Plutone.html
We have ALL information less the values of crossover components. And graphs, crossover diagrams and photos.
Thats a kit I've been very interested in building since first reading it was in the works.
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I also. I have been following Tony Gee for years. Except for the high price they have everything I ask for speakers for a large room. But I can only enjoy my musics in the other room. :cry:
It is amazing how he have optimized the woofer, unlike Troel Gravesen's initial design. And without resistors!!!!!!!
-> http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008-HMQ.htm
-> -> http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/DTQWT-mkIII-FLAT.htm
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Thats a kit I've been very interested in building since first reading it was in the works.
Mike, you need to get out more!
Boring speakers that have been done 1000x before... :P
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Mike, you need to get out more!
Boring speakers that have been done 1000x before... :P
Listen first then judge! :) For some people all they want is a compact speaker. A speaker like that would be great to use to do gear demo's as it's compact and easy to pack around.
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Maty, it does seem odd that Tidal doesn't cite sensitivity, you aren't the first to question that. I have no way of verifying the truth of this this one way or another but Tidal's owner says that their reluctance to specify sensitivity is because they feel their competitors are not accurate and consistent in the way their sensitivity ratings are stated and don't wish to "play that game" one might say. Personally I don't really care what their exact sensitivity ratings are and their statement as to their tube friendliness is quite accurate. 25 EL34 watts per channel is enough to drive them louder than I'd ever care to listen in my 90 cubic meter room. My general preferred listening level is 82-83 db. C weighted slow response.
Mike, I'm stuck in the disc spinning mode when I listen to digital - no DACs for me. Spinners are either a Luxman D-05 SACD/CD or an Arcam FMJ CD37 for background listening. Maybe when the day comes and I retire I'll pursue migrating my hard media and converting some of my couple thousand lps to files for a DAC based system.
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Days ago, in KEF LS50 thread in Diyaudio forums I commented -many posts- that the sensitivity was 83 dB and not the 85 dB that the manufacturer says. Adding that the minimum impedance is really 3.3 Ohms and not 3.7 Ohms or 8 Ohms nominal it turns out that amplifiers with many more watts are needed for them to sound properly.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/218281-kef-ls50-post5363028.html
-> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/218281-kef-ls50-post5367402.html
Among those who hide data and others fake data that consumers are sold.
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:nono: :nono: :nono:
https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ac-ipurifier/
[Big IMG] https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AC-2-2.jpg
I do not know the AC iPurifier graph attenuation but the Passive attenuation of the graph is a manipulation.
Schaffner FN 9244B:
https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-9244/
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-typical-filter-attenuation.png
* With DAC, phono, preamp and class A amplifiers only we need 1A.
* With class AB amplifiers < 3A in Europe (230V).
How many Hi-Fi systems need 12A or 15A? In this case we have 5 dB at 10 kHz. 10 dB at 100 kHz and about 18 dB at 1 MHz.
The iFi graph: 0 dB at 10 kHz, 100 kHz and 1 MHz.
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Perhaps the KEF LS50 is intended more for near field applications or small rooms. It is unlikely that a 5.25in. driver will handle more than 100watts on a long term basis whether it's is 82dB or 85dB is moot if the speaker isn't used in application that it is ill suited for.
I do agree that the speaker make severe demands on the partnering amplifier ability to supply current but it does not follow that a 400watt/8ohms amplifier is the best approach a 100w/ch amp that can double its output down to 2ohms might be a better sounding choice.
Scotty
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Spinners are either a Luxman D-05 SACD/CD or an Arcam FMJ CD37 for background listening. Maybe when the day comes and I retire I'll pursue migrating my hard media and converting some of my couple thousand lps to files for a DAC based system.
Ever think of getting the D-08u ?
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Do you really want to start this debate all over again. :(
I guess 17 posts before it hits the Intergalactic Waste Bin.
The facilitator doesn't seem to have a problem with the direction it's taken.
What is this thread about again?
Are we there yet?
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There won't be a Class D revolution until Class D amps are made to also weigh 100lbs. That simple. If you are shelling out big bucks for an amp the perception is, right or wrong, it's gotta have real heft. A fat number to slap on the brochure and website. Cause you're not buying it off Amazon, ur goin to a dealer and saying you want the Fire, the dank. That dealer is not gonna wanna take you to a room where there's a small box that weighs 10lbs. He is gonna want to take you to a room so he can say it's so heavy I have to bring you to it. It takes two men with strong beards to set this up. It has fins, because the HEAT. Requires cables the thickness of an arm, a STRONG arm. The GIRTH. And you say, mmmm, take my money.
That dealer is not going to want to take you to a special room and show you an amp that can fit in Amazon frustration free package no matter how blinged out the enclosure and tell you about how simple it is, how technologically advanced it is, how it slides right next to your AppleTV, and the space age design. You're gonna go, huh, bet my significant other would love that. How many men does it take to lift the other one again?
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There won't be a Class D revolution until Class D amps are made to also weigh 100lbs. That simple. If you are shelling out big bucks for an amp the perception is, right or wrong, it's gotta have real heft. A fat number to slap on the brochure and website. Cause you're not buying it off Amazon, ur goin to a dealer and saying you want the Fire, the dank. That dealer is not gonna wanna take you to a room where there's a small box that weighs 10lbs. He is gonna want to take you to a room so he can say it's so heavy I have to bring you to it. It takes two men with strong beards to set this up. It has fins, because the HEAT. Requires cables the thickness of an arm, a STRONG arm. The GIRTH. And you say, mmmm, take my money.
That dealer is not going to want to take you to a special room and show you an amp that can fit in Amazon frustration free package no matter how blinged out the enclosure and tell you about how simple it is, how technologically advanced it is, how it slides right next to your AppleTV, and the space age design. You're gonna go, huh, bet my significant other would love that. How many men does it take to lift the other one again?
You have a point... top end amps must be coffee-table sized and have $20k into the enclosure.
It is true there are some thing that are impossible to fight against, and learned perceptions are one of them.
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:D Well VAC has nothing to worry about then except going under water soon. Ha.
65,000.00 dollar amps. Girlfriends love that stuff. :D
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All the big monster amps, like VAC and ARC 750, if they intelligent could run a Class D amp inside, still keeping those big honking tubes glowing for nothing :lol:
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I actually quite like the Nord NC500 based mono amps. A friend sent me his pair to try, and I was almost satisfied with them enough to purchase a pair. I need to try some of bavmike's creations I think, just to see if indeed, Class D is where I need it to be now. Again, the Nord's with the Sparkos opamps were indeed very good, just not quite there for me.
I am all about the light weight and affordability, so long as they perform.
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There won't be a Class D revolution until Class D amps are made to also weigh 100lbs. That simple. If you are shelling out big bucks for an amp the perception is, right or wrong, it's gotta have real heft.
That might be true for the simple minded, but it is totally absurd for those who only care about obtaining the very best possible fidelity technologically available. :D
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That might be true for the simple minded
Yikes.
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Yikes.
+1 :lol:
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Also, I'd just like to point out the possible misinterpretation of the words 'SS Revolution'.
Just sayin.
Are we there yet?
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Also, I'd just like to point out the possible misinterpretation of the words 'SS Revolution'.
How so? In the context of what this website is about, and not about, I don't see how that is possible.
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How about this... There have been NO real sonic revolutions in solid state analog technology (amps/preamps/turntables/tape deck's, tuners, etc.) since the 70's. I base this on my experience, so my flak jacket is on, and I am well armed. :lol:
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How about this... There have been NO real sonic revolutions in solid state analog technology (amps/preamps/turntables/tape deck's, tuners, etc.) since the 70's. I base this on my experience, so my flak jacket is on, and I am well armed. :lol:
I agree with that if you only stick with certain manufacturers. Some build the same products that were being built in the 40’s today.
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I agree with that if you only stick with certain manufacturers. Some build the same products that were being built in the 40’s today.
Ok, what revolutionary ways have we figured out how to run a tube/transistor since the 70's? Heck, 60's for that matter.
Parts are better than they were in the 60's and early to mid 70's. Absolutely. Silicon is refined. Electrolytic capacitor tech is refined. There are some real creative topologies out there. However, nothing really revolutionary in my opinion has happened in many years.
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How about this... There have been NO real sonic revolutions...
Here's a prediction, many are going to ditch their tube amps once and for all and replaced them with Class D amps. Why? Sonic merit superiority. Tube tech has been exploited and like an abandoned mine shaft, there's nothing left to be had.
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Ok, what revolutionary ways have we figured out how to run a tube/transistor since the 70's? Heck, 60's for that matter.
It’s the rest of the package that has been revolutionized. Transistors have improved as well. Share some amp spec sheets from the 70’s that can compare with the best of 2018’s class D.
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I agree with that if you only stick with certain manufacturers. Some build the same products that were being built in the 40’s today.
You are telling me that somebody is using something other that a round wheel?
............and it's better?
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Here's a prediction, many are going to ditch their tube amps once and for all and replaced them with Class D amps. Why? Sonic merit superiority. Tube tech has been exploited and like an abandoned mine shaft, there's nothing left to be had.
Nothing about my previous statement should have reflected that tubes are superior to solid state.
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Nothing about my previous statement should have reflected that tubes are superior to solid state.
Tubes amps are NOT superior to SS. But since were talking about a revolution, well you know... Class D is changing the audio world.
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It’s the rest of the package that has been revolutionized. Transistors have improved as well. Share some amp spec sheets from the 70’s that can compare with the best of 2018’s class D.
Look up Sansui BA-F1. 1979 amp. 600kHz impressive enough? Transistors were pretty good in the late 70's.. Electrolytic caps too.
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Look up Sansui BA-F1. 1979 amp. 600kHz impressive enough? Transistors were pretty good in the late 70's.. Electrolytic caps too.
600khz? That’s the only spec that matters? I don’t think too many people that were around in the 70’s could hear that high.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177449)
The SNR and THD is decent, but the damping factor and 8 ohm minimum impedance isn’t very impressive. What would the inflation adjusted cost of that amp be today?
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600khz? That’s the only spec that matters? I don’t think too many people that were around in the 70’s could hear that high.
Come on man. You just trying to be funny? Not by a long shot is it the only important spec. Look at the rest. Impressive that it can do it, nonetheless.
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Come on man. You just trying to be funny? Not by a long shot is it the only important spec. Look at the rest. Impressive that it can do it, nonetheless.
Updated last post.
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The true revolution:
With this class D amps generation or with the next -> the number of small manufacturers will be drastically reduced.
And with the news DAC with super clean power regulation + powerful DSP, the lace.
If we add it to the fact that the vast majority of the population has become accustomed to the terrible recordings...
This evening I listened the 24/96 vinyl rip: The Rolling Stones - Blue & Lonesome (2016) and the sound is AWFUL. But the customer reviews say the opposite.
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Lonesome-Rolling-Stones/product-reviews/B01M1BPRQ1/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1
I just talk only about the sound quality. By the way, the DR is only 10.
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600khz? That’s the only spec that matters? I don’t think too many people that were around in the 70’s could hear that high.
The SNR and THD is decent, but the damping factor and 8 ohm minimum impedance isn’t very impressive. What would the inflation adjusted cost of that amp be today?
This amp was like $699 in 1979/1980, but find me a class A/B amp with similar listed specs today. I would guess about $15K is what you would pay.
Do you need better damping factor than 100?
I have never heard an amp with better sounding bass than the BA-F1. It is focused bass that blooms and launches into the room, and it rolls on the floor with some recordings. Sounds very real to me. I don't know if that makes allot of sense, but it is what comes to mind. :)
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This amp was like $699 in 1979/1980, but find me a class A/B amp with similar listed specs today. I would guess about $15K is what you would pay.
Do you need better damping factor than 100?
I have never heard an amp with better sounding bass than the BA-F1. It is focused bass that blooms and launches into the room, and it rolls on the floor with some recordings. Sounds very real to me. I don't know if that makes allot of sense, but it is what comes to mind. :)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177450)
I think $2400 could get you a class D amp today with much better specs than that. And wouldn’t weigh 50lbs either.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177450)
I think $2400 could get you a class D amp today with much better specs than that. And wouldn’t weigh 50lbs either.
Where's the specs?
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Where's the specs?
Under $500 can get you an amp with one of these inside:
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ncore_mp/nc122mp/Documentation/NC122MP_02xx.pdf
Detailed specs like that are what you get with today’s class D.
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Under $500 can get you an amp with one of these inside:
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ncore_mp/nc122mp/Documentation/NC122MP_02xx.pdf
Detailed specs like that are what you get with today’s class D.
Impressive in some areas, no doubt. Where is the Slew Rate? Rise Time? These I feel are VERY important specs for my goals.
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Here is a pretty impressive looking amp:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjJiZmLq-rZAhWsz4MKHWXxB_EQjBAINDAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectralaudio.com%2Fdma-150.htm&usg=AOvVaw0yYiPnhibjVlKFWOFkqGAP
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Impressive in some areas, no doubt. Where is the Slew Rate? Rise Time? These I feel are VERY important specs.
There’s far more specs on that datasheet than I can find on the Sansui.
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Here is a pretty impressive looking amp:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjJiZmLq-rZAhWsz4MKHWXxB_EQjBAINDAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spectralaudio.com%2Fdma-150.htm&usg=AOvVaw0yYiPnhibjVlKFWOFkqGAP
I’d put the latest under $2000 class D up against anything at any cost from any era.
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I have ordered Mike's new Icepower 1200AS2 Class D SS amp (Lot 4; Standard) as a potential replacement for my Atmasphere M-1s (175 watts).
I am encouraged to think that might be possible because after a lifetime of "tubes-rule," I switched out a very fine Audio Note tube preamp for the even finer DSA (Dynamic Sound Associates) Phono II phono preamp and DSA Pre 1 preamp, both SS units. The increase in clarity and "aliveness" without a trace of the hardness/brightness/sterility I formerly associated with SS still continues to amaze me. I have almost holographic, enveloping sound, and an "ease" of presentation that is difficult to describe and impossible to measure.
But there is a problem. The Atma's, being OTLs, do not like low-impedance speakers. I had to rewire my magnificent GR Research LS-9s (OB version) from their stock series/parallel configuration to a more series configuration to raise the impedance seen by the amps. The result is that my current system is the best I have ever heard in my home (and in anyone else's, for that matter). It may not be fair to stick Mike's amps back into my system without changing the wiring back to the way Danny Ritchie designed it. I have tried other SS amps without restoring the wiring to stock, and much of the magic was lost. Going back to the original config, however is a real pain, and I'm not sure I am willing to do that. I'm hoping Mike's amp will not need that.
So why am I messing around with Mike's amp? Well, I'm a long.-time audiophile with (I believe) an open mind. I tried Class D amps 10 years ago with my (then) Sound Lab ESLs and the sound wasn't horrible (not bad, actually, but . . . ). The M-1s require a total of 38 tubes. Reasons good and bad, maybe. Anyway, I'm willing to give it a shot.
BTW, I listen almost exclusively to classical music on vinyl. But I might be willing to try Mike's new DAC setup if things go well with the amps.
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I have ordered Mike's new Icepower 1200AS2 Class D SS amp (Lot 4; Standard) as a potential replacement for my Atmasphere M-1s (175 watts).
I am encouraged to think that might be possible because after a lifetime of "tubes-rule," I switched out a very fine Audio Note tube preamp for the even finer DSA (Dynamic Sound Associates) Phono II phono preamp and DSA Pre 1 preamp, both SS units. The increase in clarity and "aliveness" without a trace of the hardness/brightness/sterility I formerly associated with SS still continues to amaze me. I have almost holographic, enveloping sound, and an "ease" of presentation that is difficult to describe and impossible to measure.
But there is a problem. The Atma's, being OTLs, do not like low-impedance speakers. I had to rewire my magnificent GR Research LS-9s (OB version) from their stock series/parallel configuration to a more series configuration to raise the impedance seen by the amps. The result is that my current system is the best I have ever heard in my home (and in anyone else's, for that matter). It may not be fair to stick Mike's amps back into my system without changing the wiring back to the way Danny Ritchie designed it. I have tried other SS amps without restoring the wiring to stock, and much of the magic was lost. Going back to the original config, however is a real pain, and I'm not sure I am willing to do that. I'm hoping Mike's amp will not need that.
So why am I messing around with Mike's amp? Well, I'm a long.-time audiophile with (I believe) an open mind. I tried Class D amps 10 years ago with my (then) Sound Lab ESLs and the sound wasn't horrible (not bad, actually, but . . . ). The M-1s require a total of 38 tubes. Reasons good and bad, maybe. Anyway, I'm willing to give it a shot.
BTW, I listen almost exclusively to classical music on vinyl. But I might be willing to try Mike's new DAC setup if things go well with the amps.
I look forward to your impressions. DSA is excellent, some of the best sounding components I've heard.
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There’s far more specs on that datasheet than I can find on the Sansui.
Yep. Sure are more specification listings for all parts of the amp. But the actual amplifier performance specs are a bit lacking I think. Ya, I see specs for the power supply, etc, but the actual amp performance, I see less. Since they were going for page count on the specs, why not list the rest of them?
I am not picking on the amps you are speaking of. I have heard the NC500's in their best form IMO, and did walk away impressed at the level they played at vs. my expectations. That is why I would like to hear a pair of your amps to hear the latest Ncore tech at a more reachable price point. My only problem with the NC500 based amps were they got a bit lost on very complex music. They delineated well, but not as good as I would like them to, and have heard other amps do.
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:D this great hobby is about sound/value ratio. If a 2K dig can do what a 60k VAC can do ,,,, I'm ALL IN . Where the hell do I sign. I really need a new amp and pre,,,,,ha. Really really ,,,, :D
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Yep. Sure are more specification listings for all parts of the amp. But the actual amplifier performance specs are a bit lacking I think. Ya, I see specs for the power supply, etc, but the actual amp performance, I see less. Since they were going for page count on the specs, why not list the rest of them?
I am not picking on the amps you are speaking of. I have heard the NC500's in their best form IMO, and did walk away impressed at the level they played at vs. my expectations. That is why I would like to hear a pair of your amps to hear the latest Ncore tech at a more reachable price point. My only problem with the NC500 based amps were they got a bit lost on very complex music. They delineated well, but not as good as I would like them to and have heard other amps do.
I still say the NC-500’s are much better than you think. But of course to make them top level the cost is much more than is feasible to make a marketable product from them. However just be aware that the shortcomings in your setup are from the input buffer and power supply. Not the class D end.
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I still say the NC-500’s are much better than you think.
I don't. I have been doing this for a long time, and consider myself a very trained listener. The fact that they did as good as they did vs. my expectations based on earlier Class D designs, is impressive to me. Seemingly questioning my credibility is only good form, and I expect nothing less. However I don't know how or even know if my explanation of myself and experience would be viable in expressing my credibility. I have never been one to over qualify.
I can say that I fix things from all audio eras, and listen to these things on a regular basis in a dedicated purpose built audio room. Maybe the properly restored BA-F1 is better than you think it is? It is my current reference, and has yet to be bettered. I can name a few other amps from the 70's and some newer amps that I have had the pleasure to try and or afford that get close sonically, but none better.
I’d put the latest under $2000 class D up against anything at any cost from any era.
This is exactly how I feel about my Sansui, and it only weighs 40lbs :)
I agree, to a degree, about the supply and input buffers being a possible shortcoming. The supply is the most important I think. The input stages are all pretty transparent in these Class D amps for the most part. Even some of the ones using very good off the shelf opamps.
The power supply matters BIG time for these digital amps, and switch mode is possibly the best way to get the best performance out of Class D designs from a cost standpoint.
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The power supply matters BIG time for these digital amps, and switch mode is possibly the best way to get the best performance out of Class D designs from a cost standpoint.
I think that is a bit of a generalization; there are always exceptions to the rule. For all the good things people have said about Astron regulated power supplies, I found I much preferred an SMPS with a isolation transformer in front of it, and even more so with a DAC. As always, YMMV.
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Well, I read the entire thread. Most of it was entertaining.
Re: the OP "Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???"
The answer is no. The Revolution has already happened.
We're just futzing with the details now. Regards
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For all the good things people have said about Astron regulated power supplies, I found I much preferred an SMPS with a isolation transformer in front of it, and even more so with a DAC. As always, YMMV.
Interesting.
What do you think about RF/EMI filters with class D amps? Or RF ferrites.
My old Panasonic TV uses plasma technology (I LOVE que quality image). The plasma technology is ultrafast, much more than class D amplifiers. I tried everything: Schaffner RF / EMI filters, Würth 150 kHz ferrites and DC & riple blockers but the image was always worse, much worse. I do not remember the sound quality with the gadgets.
Better connected directly to the wall socket.
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Talking about ferrites and filters with class D amplifiers, the Nuprime ST-10:
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Nuprime-ST-10-inside.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Nuprime-ST-10-inside.jpg)
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Interesting.
What do you think about RF/EMI filters with class D amps? Or RF ferrites.
My approach to audio is different from yours in that I don't need to know or even care about the technical side of things.
I judge and care about one thing only, and that is the end result of what I hear. If it sounds good, it is good.
And to be perfectly honest, I have not heard the ST-10. What's your point?
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The question is if you think that RF/EMI filters and RF ferrites are problematic with class D technology.
With class A or AB work well until the attenuation is excessive (too much filters, stages or ferrites in the chain) and causes a dynamics loss.
Class D technology has more problems with interferences than older technologies. They/we have to be more careful in design and assembly in the box.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier
Electromagnetic interference
The switching power stage generates both high dV/dt and dI/dt, which give rise to radiated emission whenever any part of the circuit is large enough to act as an antenna. In practice, this means the connecting wires and cables will be the most efficient radiators so most effort should go into preventing high-frequency signals reaching those:
* Avoid capacitive coupling from switching signals into the wiring.
* Avoid inductive coupling from various current loops in the power stage into the wiring.
* Use one unbroken ground plane and group all connectors together, in order to have a common RF reference for decoupling capacitors
* Include the equivalent series inductance of filter capacitors and the parasitic capacitance of filter inductors in the circuit model before selecting components.
* Wherever ringing is encountered, locate the inductive and capacitive parts of the resonant circuit that causes it, and use parallel RC or series RL snubbers to reduce the Q of the resonance.
* Do not make the MOSFETs switch any faster than needed to fulfil efficiency or distortion requirements. Distortion is more easily reduced using negative feedback than by speeding up switching.
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I think that is a bit of a generalization; there are always exceptions to the rule. For all the good things people have said about Astron regulated power supplies, I found I much preferred an SMPS with a isolation transformer in front of it, and even more so with a DAC. As always, YMMV.
No. How it should have read is that it would take a serious amount of money to build a linear supply that performs better than the SMPS in the NCORE amps. This was more of a compliment in that regard. Also trying to express just how important the supply is with these amps. I also believe SMPS tech evolution is the main driving force behind these Class D amps getting better.
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No. How it should have read is that it would take a serious amount of money to build a linear supply that performs better than the SMPS in the NCORE amps. This was more of a compliment in that regard. Also trying to express just how important the supply is with these amps. I also believe SMPS tech evolution is the main driving force behind these Class D amps getting better.
It's not just NCORE. Benchmark makes excellent gear, and that includes switching power supplies. They state that their SMPS are an improvement over linear power supplies.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy (https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy)
Check out the specs of this audio playback setup with SMPS
Devialet 400 Expert Pro:
THD+N : 0,00025% (440W / 6Ω)
THD : 0,0001% (10W / 6Ω)
Signal-to-Noise ratio: 133dB
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Re: the OP "Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???"
The answer is no. The Revolution has already happened.
I agree. We're at the beginning of a revolution in high end audio where massive amps and a system of separate components are being replaced with smaller amps and integrated setups. For instance, my previous amp weighed 75 lbs. -- the current set of monos weighs about 5 pounds each. Likewise, my previous DAC weighed over 30 pounds -- the new one weighs less than 2 pounds. My system sounds far better at a much lower cost.
The next audiophile revolution will be battery-powered bluetooth speakers with integrated amps built inside of them. No power cables, no speaker cables, no interconnects, no power conditioners.... The technology doesn't need to mature to make this a reality - it's already here. The non-audiophile community has been using bluetooth speakers for many years.
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Along the lines of advancement, the current availability of Digital Audio Players (DAP), and what they can do, is remarkable. One can get audiophile quality sound from a unit that can connect via wireless, supports streaming, can act as a digital streaming source for a home stereo, and can store one's entire music collection.
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It's not just NCORE. Benchmark makes excellent gear, and that includes switching power supplies. They state that their SMPS are an improvement over linear power supplies.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy (https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy)
Check out the specs of this audio playback setup with SMPS
Devialet 400 Expert Pro:
THD+N : 0,00025% (440W / 6Ω)
THD : 0,0001% (10W / 6Ω)
Signal-to-Noise ratio: 133dB
Semantics... Not trying to leave anyone out, just giving a for example. The Theta Class D amps are supposed to be quite good too. Have also heard that the Cherry amps are supposed to be unlike any other Class D.
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If the smaller Icepower amps sound good and Emotiva brings these out, they would be great for desktops.
http://www.sohmerassoc.com/ces_2017/emotiva/Emotiva-CES17-Emersa-010317.pdf
PS Audio has been getting some great reviews for their Icepower amps.
http://www.10audio.com/psaud_stellar_s300.htm
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier
https://www.cnet.com/news/get-ready-to-upgrade-over-receiver-sound-quality-amplifier-preamp-power/
http://hifipig.com/ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dacpreamp-s300-stereo-power-amplifier/
Stereophile gave the S-700's a Class A award.
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These amps you linked are nice but 200/300W is too powerful, it would be nice a 50W Class D intended to drive a single driver Fullrange with the respective price reduction.
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If the smaller Icepower amps sound good and Emotiva brings these out, they would be great for desktops.
http://www.sohmerassoc.com/ces_2017/emotiva/Emotiva-CES17-Emersa-010317.pdf
PS Audio has been getting some great reviews for their Icepower amps.
http://www.10audio.com/psaud_stellar_s300.htm
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier
https://www.cnet.com/news/get-ready-to-upgrade-over-receiver-sound-quality-amplifier-preamp-power/
http://hifipig.com/ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dacpreamp-s300-stereo-power-amplifier/
Stereophile gave the S-700's a Class A award.
S-700s are truly getting stellar reviews both from reviewers as well as end users. PS Audio is using the Class D only as the output stage, while the input stage (Analog Cell) is their proprietary design.
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And the S700's can be bought for attractive prices in some places. :thumb:
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And the S700's can be bought for attractive prices in some places. :thumb:
yes :D
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PS Audio at Music Direct at full price but with a 60 day return policy. :thumb:
The one I would like to try is the S-300 for 1499. Trade an amp woorth $500 at PS Audio website and the price is $1050.
Specs of the S-300
dual mono, each with their own power supply
Zero-loss Analog Cell input stage
Powerful MOSFET output stage
RCA Single ended input
XLR “true” balanced input
140 watts per channel 8Ω
300 watts per channel 4Ω
2Ω stable
Less than 0.1% thd 20Hz to 20kHz at rated power
Damping factor greater than 550 for excellent loudspeaker control
Front panel standby button
Efficient operation with very little heat
Dual, solid copper, plated, output binding posts
27 pounds
Input 12 volt trigger
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The S300 is a great amp with good reviews as well. I had it hooked up with Dynaudio speakers. You won't be disappointed for the $$. I have since traded the S300 in for the M700 mono blocks (then upgraded speakers) and am very pleased. I also use the PSA Direct Stream DAC. Good luck!
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How different is the s700 from the m700? Or was it just a typo.
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deleted
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The M700s are part of the Stellar series so perhaps that is where the "S" originates. I am referring to these Class D's for clarifications sake:
https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-power-amplifier/
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The M700s are part of the Stellar series so perhaps that is where the "S" originates. I am referring to these Class D's for clarifications sake:
https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-power-amplifier/
There is a S300 (stereo) amp but no S700. Just the mono blocks..
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PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock power amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier
In the Stellar M700, the Gain Cell drives a 700ASC class-D power module from the Danish company ICEpower. I asked Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio, why they chose this module rather than, say, one from Hypex, another class-D specialist. He said that they spent a lot of time listening to modules from various manufacturers, and the 700ASC was the one whose sound quality most closely matched that of the Gain Cell...
-> https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
H3 predominance :(
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/218PSM700fig09.jpg)
Buffer? + Icepower 700ASC
Buffer or Icepower 700ASC, who is the guilty?
Well, I do not like the harmonic profile. Where are H2 or little H4? H2 at -110 dB, H3 at -80 dB. Vade retro.
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The S300 is a great amp with good reviews as well. I had it hooked up with Dynaudio speakers. You won't be disappointed for the $$. I have since traded the S300 in for the M700 mono blocks (then upgraded speakers) and am very pleased. I also use the PSA Direct Stream DAC. Good luck!
How much better are the M700's over the S300 in SQ?
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I do not have a Spectrum Analyzer or data to answer your question. However there was a distinct difference my system which may be also be attributed to overhead given the difference in power etc. Your system experience may vary but the 700 was a step up and a great value point. My system had better imaging and I use the power- not always but at higher SPLs the difference was readily apparent in overall performance. Above that was the BHK 250 ($7500) and the BHK monos (15K) which personally, did not fit my system goals or budget.
To quote Paul McGowen:
You see, it’s not an easy black and white question because the S300 and M700 are totally different amps. Sure, they were crafted by the same hands, voiced by the same two people, both based on an Analog Cell in the front end, but they do not sound the same.
One is not a smaller identical sounding version of the other.
PSA does have a trail period btw... However, deals can be found "out in the wild".... Hope this help...
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The answer is blowing in other review.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
As the M700 is a class-D design, all measurements were taken with Audio Precision's auxiliary AUX-0025 passive low-pass filter, which eliminates noise above 200kHz that might otherwise overload the SYS2722's input circuitry. Without the filter, 877mV of ultrasonic noise was present at the speaker terminals, with a center frequency of 465kHz. (This is very similar to the Peachtree Audio nova300, which Art Dudley reviewed in June 2017 and which also uses an ICEpower module.)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/peachtree-audio-nova300-integrated-amplifier-measurements
Because of it uses ICEpower class-D modules...
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/517PN300fig08.jpg)
The PS BUFFER is the guilty
I do not remember ever seeing a harmonic profile where H2 is 30 db below H3, it is amazing.
I do not understand how they can search on purpose, it is inconceivable to me. They are using engineering to obtain the opposite of what is desirable in audio. Again: incredible.
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[Polish Review] PEACHTREE AUDIO Nova 150 V2
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2857-peachtree-audio-nova-150-v2
to English with Google:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F2857-peachtree-audio-nova-150-v2&edit-text=
(https://audio.com.pl/images/7/4/5/48745-wzmacniacz-nova-150-v2-audiocompl-laboratorium2.jpg) (https://audio.com.pl/images/7/4/5/48745-wzmacniacz-nova-150-v2-audiocompl-laboratorium2.jpg)
The third harmonic is the strongest in the spectrum in Figure 2, and its level is low -90 dB; you can see the next odd, but already below -100 dB. In the high level of THD + N indicator (Fig. 3), this noise is involved, which makes the characteristics fall above the level of 0.1%, but in this case it is not a cause for great distress. It's good, pulse technique and here it came out with a shield, although it triumphs elsewhere - in C388.
* C388 is NAD C388 with Hypex UcD.
By the way, the SNR is only 75 dB !!!!!!!!!
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Maty (#211)
Lincoln (or Confucius, or Solomon, or Samuel Johnson, or Mark Twain, or Homer Simpson) once said: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt."
Well, I need help in understanding your harmonic chart and I don’t mind displaying my ignorance to get it.
Since I am more comfortable using % distortion rather than dB, I used the THD to dB converter at http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm to obtain from your chart:
100% distortion at 50Hz
.0003% distortion at 100Hz
.1% distortion at 150Hz
0.0000178% at 1,000Hz
I’m guessing you are bothered by those distortion figures at low frequencies.
When I Googled “distortion figures at low frequencies” I came across several entries which suggest that high distortion at low frequencies is not as terrible as high distortion at high frequencies. (OK, 100% at 50Hz does seem a bit much.)
But the rap on Class D, as I understand it, has been high distortion at high frequencies, and there seems to be none of that here.
Care to elaborate?
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They are not my charts, my measures, my graphs....
Again: H2 is 30 dB below H3. With H3 at -80 dB.
What logic does it have? What sound is sought? A very analytical sound? Why spoil the harmonic profile of the Icepower module?
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[Polish Review] NAD C388, with the old Hypex UcD modules
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2856-nad-c388
to English with Google:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F2856-nad-c388&edit-text=&act=url
(https://audio.com.pl/images/7/1/9/48719-laboratorium-nad-c388-audiocompl-lab2.jpg)
The S / N value of 88 dB is particularly pleasing, as it is an impulse system. The low noise level and high output power create very high dynamics - 112 dB.
The C388 also coped well in the difficult (for class D amplifiers) test of transfer characteristic (Figure 1), which almost does not reveal that we are dealing with such a construction. The characteristics for both loads are perfectly convergent, they fall gently already above 20 kHz, but the points -3 dB are determined only above 70 kHz.
In the distortion spectrum (Figure 2), only the second harmonic lies at the limit of -90 dB, while the next one manages to see above the low noise spectrum, but it will be completely irrelevant.
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Maty
That was not a challenge. I simply do not understand the significance of what you are saying.
"Again: H2 is 30 dB below H3. With H3 at -80 dB."
What does that signify? What should that tell us?
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I might add that I understand none of the graphs etc. at least as it relates to sound quality. What I do understand is how the 300 and 700s sound in my system. I also know the guys that build these and the testing, listening and manufacturing that went into them. There is nothing anyone on this forum or most others is going to "catch" good or bad that has not been reviewed buy the team at PSA after 40+ years experience. My opinion anyway. Lot's of great options out there- PSA is one of them and the 700s are getting killer reviews and that's is not by accident. Best and by far the most definitive test= try one in your home.
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I do not know why this harmonic profile was sought.
Would not it be better to ask the manufacturer to explain it?
I honestly do not understand why.
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I might add that I understand none of the graphs etc. at least as it relates to sound quality. What I do understand is how the 300 and 700s sound in my system. I also know the guys that build these and the testing, listening and manufacturing that went into them. There is nothing anyone on this forum or most others is going to "catch" good or bad that has not been reviewed buy the team at PSA after 40+ years experience. My opinion anyway. Lot's of great options out there- PSA is one of them and the 700s are getting killer reviews and that's is not by accident. Best and by far the most definitive test= try one in your home.
What are the m700’s currently driving? I think you mentioned earlier you used the S300 with Dynaudio but then upgraded both speakers and amps if I read that right. And are you using the Direct Stream as volume control?
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My message to support, https://www.psaudio.com/contact/
Subject: PS Audio Stellar M700
Hi from Spain
I do not understand what is sought with the harmonic profile of said
amplifier and that it appears in Stereophile measurements.
In the forums of Audiocircle I commented my enormous strangeness.
- maty -
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I forget the link! Now I send a new message.
Subject: PS Audio Stellar M700, the Audiocircle link
Hi,
I am sorry. The link is:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156250.msg1673278#msg1673278
- maty -
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What are the m700’s currently driving? I think you mentioned earlier you used the S300 with Dynaudio but then upgraded both speakers and amps if I read that right. And are you using the Direct Stream as volume control?
Originally, I did use the DSD as the volume direct to the 700s. With Dyn C1s, this produced a edgy sound (too bright as well) especially at volume. I now have the DSD running to a Cary pre-amp (perhaps upgrade to the BHK pre one day, not sure) then (all XLR btw , which made a difference) to the 700s. Many run the DSD direct to their amps and follow the motto "the best pre is no pre". I can't argue that, It just did not result in optimum sound for me. The amps power Wilson Sabrina's which can dip well into 2 ohms.
Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 2.53 ohms minimum at 139Hz. Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m at 1kHz. Frequency response: 31Hz–21kHz, ±3dB, Room Average Response
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Response received: they send the message to the expert.
[Review] PS Audio Stellar M700 Mono Power Amplifiers
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1138-ps-audio-stellar-m700-mono-power-amplifiers
BHK Labs Measurements: PS Audio Stellar M700 Mono Amplifiers
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1836:bhk-labs-measurements-ps-audio-stellar-m700-mono-amplifiers&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
Stereorephile graphs do not have peaks at HF! Here yes, like the Icepower specs.
(https://www.soundstage.com/images/stories/amplifiermeasurements/psaudio_stellar_m700/chart1.gif)
Chart 5 - Distortion and noise spectrum
1kHz signal at 10W into an 8-ohm load
(https://www.soundstage.com/images/stories/amplifiermeasurements/psaudio_stellar_m700/chart5.gif)
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With Icepower class D module too. Hypex Ncore.
Bel Canto e.One Ref600M power amplifier Measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bel-canto-eone-ref600m-power-amplifier-measurements
Fig.7 Bel Canto e.One REF600M, spectrum of 50Hz sinewave, DC–1kHz, at 100W into 8 ohms (linear frequency scale)
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/916BC600fig7.jpg)
BHK Labs Measurements: Bel Canto Design e.One REF600M Mono Amplifiers
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1515:bhk-labs-measurements-bel-canto-design-e-one-ref600m-mono-amplifiers&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
Stereo mode 1kHz signal at 10W into a 4-ohm load
(https://www.soundstage.com/images/stories/amplifiermeasurements/bel_canto_design_eone_ref600m/chart5.gif)
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One week later and PS Audio keeps silence.
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Bel Canto Design Black ACI 600 integrated amplifier Measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bel-canto-design-black-aci-600-integrated-amplifier-measurements
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig11.jpg) (https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig11.jpg)
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig09.jpg) (https://www.stereophile.com/images/418BC600fig09.jpg)
Fig.9 Bel Canto Black ACI 600, analog input, THD+N (%) vs frequency at 20V into: 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (gray).
and...
Only $25,000. Here there are not tubes.
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How's the verging going? We there yet?
12 pages and I'm still not sure what's going on. Some of these threads are like watching Netflix.
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Short attention span? The revolution has come and gone and you've been - LEFT BEHIND!! :lol:
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Short attention span? The revolution has come and gone and you've been - LEFT BEHIND!! :lol:
That would explain my hairpiece (uncredited).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177849)
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[The administrator warns me not to duplicate the posts,
so only the links]
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12 pages and I'm still not sure what's going on.
H2s and H3s are battling it out with buffers and power supply chips, and no side is backing down. Radar charts have just been deployed in a surprise move to baffle the enemy.
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Much SNR -> more details, more soundstage...
This week,
http://www.rohm.com/web/global/news-detail?news-title=industrys-first-power-supply-ics-for-high-fidelity-audio&defaultGroupId=false
(http://www.rohm.com/image/image_gallery?uuid=0d5593c1-b6bc-4a6d-bc89-1ef4e985fdd9&groupId=11308&t=1520971331141)
(http://www.rohm.com/image/image_gallery?uuid=0d5593c1-b6bc-4a6d-bc89-1ef4e985fdd9&groupId=11308&t=1520971331141)
That is why I find it so incomprehensible that some brands, after adding a BAD buffer to the modules they buy from others, damage the harmonic profile and, even more, the SNR!
With class D power amps one expects not to see harmonics and a very high SNR.
My choice are even: emotion, you add them via preamplifier. If SET design (tubes or SS) -> H2 predominant. Usually in class A.
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Re: What is the MEGAschino Cherry ? by LarryD56
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149935.msg1675151#msg1675151
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Do you really want to start this debate all over again. :(
I guess 17 posts before it hits the Intergalactic Waste Bin.
12 pages and 4000+ page views later....
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H2s and H3s are battling it out with buffers and power supply chips, and no side is backing down. Radar charts have just been deployed in a surprise move to baffle the enemy.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Greg,
I quite agree. John R’s comment is off the charts hilarious :rotflmao:
I am also convinced now that any thread that maty participates in, ends up becoming his blog or “sub” blog. I’m sure he has a following, kind of like a newscaster. Get out the popcorn!
Best,
Anand.
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... I am also convinced now that any thread that maty participates in, ends up becoming his blog or “sub” blog...
And I never knew that the cookie monster never met a graph that he didn't love & post ad nauseam about! :lol:
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And I never knew that the cookie monster never met a graph that he didn't love & post ad nauseam about! :lol:
Yup. It’s all good though. I’m all about the education. That being said I use honest fellas in the industry to guide me, only because non contexual discussions can easily lead to obfuscation, misinformation, and misinterpretations.
Best,
Anand.
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To the flat Earth believers:
IcePower 1200AS2
https://icepower.dk/support/download-page/
[PDF] https://icepower.dk/download/5748/ , page 12
1200 watts/4 Ohms -> SNR: 127dB "A weighted" -> V= 69,282 v
with 1 watts/4 Ohms -> V=2v
-> 127dB - 20log(69,282v/2v) = 127dB - 30.791dB = about 96 dB "A weighted"
to compare
1 watts/8 Ohms -> 93 dB "A weighted"
With class AB, 93 dB "A weighted" is very very good. With class D is very good, I think.
How much the others?
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Class AB with very good SNR, the new Marantz PM8006.
[Polish review] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2911-marantz-pm8006
to English with Google
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F2911-marantz-pm8006&edit-text=
Rated power (1% THD + N, 1 kHz) [W] 8 Ω, 2x 80
Rated power (1% THD + N, 1 kHz) [W] 4 Ω, 2x 119
Sensitivity (for maximum power) [V] 1x 0.23
Signal / noise ratio (A-weighted filter, with reference to 1W) [dB] 90
Dynamics [dB] 109
Damping factor (relative to 4 Ω) 87
On the other hand, the record falls in a distance-to-noise discipline; here PM8006 outclassed the rivals, achieving one of the best results among all integrated amplifiers - 90 dB.
(https://audio.com.pl/images/9/2/1/49921-marantz-pm8006-laboratorium-fot2.jpg) (https://audio.com.pl/images/9/2/1/49921-marantz-pm8006-laboratorium-fot2.jpg)
A good and much expensive class D poweramp must be better than the Marantz (SNR and harmonics profile). Why not?
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg1675334#msg1675334
Cherry amplifier
SNR calculation. Easy and fast.
400 watts/4 Ohms -> SNR: 120dB. V=40v
with 1 watts/4 Ohms V=2v
-> 120dB - 20log(40v/2v) = 120dB - 26dB = 94 dB
to compare
1 watts/8 Ohms -> 91 dB
With class AB, 91 dB is very good. With class D is only good, I think.
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An example to make me understand.
You buy the engine of a Porsche and create a beautiful chassis body for it but the tires are narrow, of those used in mid-end cars.
What good is that great engine if the wheels severely limit the performance of the vehicle?
* engine = very good class D module
* tires = buffer with bad? design and poor quality control
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/biC8cEF7ZOZXy/giphy.gif)
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Stereo Magazine issue #14 pages 38, 39 and 40
https://stereo-magazine.com/flipview/epaper/stereo-magazine-2018-14/
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Marantz-SA-10-PM-10-measures-stereo-magazine-issue-14.png)
Marantz PM-10 with 2+2 Hypex NC500OEM. Only € 8000.
The SNR at 1 watt is about 80 dB :duh:
Marantz, like PS Audio, also spoils the performance of an excellent class D module.
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Have you listened to these Maty? :scratch:
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I wrote about specs.
Hypex NC500 OEM v2
At max power:
* SNR 135 dB -> 137 dB "A weighted"
At 2.83 Vrms aka 1 watt 8 Ohms
* SNR 110 dB -> 112 dB "A weighted"
At least Marantz does not add nasty H3 harmonics like PS Audio.
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And what does specs sound like?
Any speakers with less than 5% distortion on the market? 10%? 20%?
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SNR != distorsion
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The SNR at 1 watt is about 80 dB :duh:
Marantz, like PS Audio, also spoils the performance of an excellent class D module.
I wonder if this is not intentional by Marantz to achieve a certain voicing. Something akin to their traditional laid back sound.
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The own buffer and the PSU must be the Marantz problems.
32 dB less are much dB. There must be several causes.
Usually the voicing is mainly via harmonic profile.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/biC8cEF7ZOZXy/giphy.gif)
AJ I'm still laughing BRILLIANT !!!
charles
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The own buffer and the PSU must be the Marantz problems.
32 dB less are much dB. There must be several causes.
Usually the voicing is mainly via harmonic profile.
True, I suspect the buffer as well. I had a recent Marantz integrated and the sound was very disappointing.
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Back in the day when the Japenese Receivers were all that the specs were great. However sounded like crap. Go figure.
charles
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Back in the day when the Japenese Receivers were all that the specs were great. However sounded like crap. Go figure.
charles
I always contributed that to too much global feedback used in chasing low distortion numbers.
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I own the Marantz SA-10. The pictures in the 'photos with specs' of PM -1- and SA-10 above are reversed.
I only bought the Marantz SA-10 after my dealer let me audition one at home for five days.
There is no way anyone could have told me I would buy a $7000 SACD player just a month ago.
The main thing I like is the SA-10 has digital inputs.
So I can use it with my CD changers and CDs also sound much better through the SA-10
The better CD sound is the primary thing that sold my on the Marantz.
I own like ten SACD by accident. And 2500 CDs.
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Back in the day when the Japenese Receivers were all that the specs were great. However sounded like crap. Go figure.
charles
+1
Some here must have missed the spec wars of the 70's. Any tube amp sounded much better than any low spec receiver. I even fell for that one. :duh:
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Class A or class AB != class D. The technology is very very very different. And there are very different class D technology too.
Class D likes very much "tons" of feedback.
Before commenting publicly, it is better to inform yourself before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier
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For years I have been into tubes and still love them, but my current financial situation precludes me owning a tube amp. I have Omega Compact Alnico Monitors and the only amp I have is a TPA3116 that I had put in a nice chassis, so being it was all I had, I set up my system with it and love the sound. Great low level dynamics, texture, speed, and imaging...and enough power if I want to listen louder.
Back around 1990 a salesman in Sound Hounds in Victoria, B.C. said regarding audio gear "if it sounds good, it is good". Regardless of price, if it sounds good, it is good. NAD proved that with their 3020 decades ago, and are doing it now with their Class D replacement, the 3020D & D2. Bob Brines of Brines Acoustics who is highly respected on AC uses a TPA3116 based amp among others.
Back around 2013 I tried a small Class D amp and hated it so much I returned it for a refund, and never took Class D seriously until Wind Chaser had me in his home to hear his excellent sounding Class D based system. On top of that, he gave me a brand new TPA3116 board to play with, which is the amp I currently have in my system. Thank you John.