Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?

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uphoto

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Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« on: 6 Oct 2021, 04:08 am »
Excuse my ignorance if this is a strange question but I'm fairly new to jazz and have fallen for the usuals of Coltrane, Miles, Chet Baker etc but the thing that drives me crazy is the distortion associated to so many of these older recordings.

Are there any classic recordings or reissues you can suggest that are clean recordings or is the distortion part of the "charm"? 

dB Cooper

Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #1 on: 6 Oct 2021, 11:30 am »
To an extent, it is 'part of the charm', although some of the older recordings 'clean up' fairly well with modern remastering technologies. They will never have the liquid clarity of a well-done modern digital recording though. Reel-to--reel transports of good quality, in good condition, to do the work, are an endangered species though. Many 'remasters' are done on subpar machines. Another factor is that often what you are hearing is not sourced from the original studio master, but a several-generations-old dub- and generational loss does a number on the sound quality. 

These problems even affected how the music was played- I've noticed that a lot of the tunes on these 'vintage' recordings start and stop rather definitley ratheher than fading in or out, which may have been to avoid having the listener's attention being drawn to the unavoidable tape hiss, mostly masked at medium-to-loud levels.

There are ways to eke out a little more quality from these old analog msources though.

The vintage has something to do with it- recordings from the early tape era ('40's-'50's) don't sound as good as machines from, say, the 80's- the difference is easily audible due tio inprovements in the transports and electronics.

A bit of a tangent, but as there are many distortions in recordings of the era you're discussingOne interesting improvement is surprisingly little known- the Plangent Process.It uses a special tape head that is much wider bandwidth than those available at the time the recordings were made- wide enough to detect the bias signal laid down on the tape.

Now why would one want to do that? It's way above the range of human hearing.

Heres why: The bias signal is laid down on the tape by a high frequency oscillator that is extremely stable in frequency. When the tape is played back, however, speed variations of several types are introduced- speed drift, wow, flutter. By digitizing the oriiginal source at an extremely high sample rate, the bias signal- including fluctuations in its frequency due to those faults- can be detected and used to provide a 'map' of these artifacts on the tape and tune them out almost completely.

A good example is the 'Kind of Blue' sold by HDTracks. If you are a fan of this recording, you need to buy this. Period.

Plangent, however, will not remove other distortions like tape saturation, modulation noise, or the other distortions these recordings are replete with- but evey litlle improvement helps, and often these recordings can end up sounding better then they have a right to- depending strongly on what generation the work is being done from.

More info on Plangent:https://21f72ab1-6f23-4640-a146-4565b99a5d53.filesusr.com/ugd/2aa449_e428f2e04d794cd2b527402e0327fb6c.pdf
« Last Edit: 8 Oct 2021, 03:00 am by dB Cooper »

uphoto

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #2 on: 8 Oct 2021, 01:27 am »
To an extent, it is 'part of the charm', although some of the older recordings 'clean up' fairly well with modern remastering technologies. They will never have the liquid clarity of a well-done modern digital recording though. Reel-to--reel transports of good quality, in good condition, to do the work, are an endangered species though. Many 'remasters' are done on subpar machines. Another factor is that often what you are hearing is not sourced from the original studio master, but a several-generations-old dub- and generational loss does a number on the sound quality. I have

These problems even affected how the music was played- I've noticed that a lot of the tunes on these 'vintage' recordings start and stop rather definitley ratheher than fading in or out, which may have been to avoid having the listener's attention being drawn to the unavoidable tape hiss, mostly masked at medium-to-loud levels.

There are ways to eke out a little more quality from these old analog msources though.

The vintage has something to do with it- recordings from the early tape era ('40's-'50's) don't sound as good as machines from, say, the 80's- the difference is easily audible due tio inprovements in the transports and electronics.

A bit of a tangent, but as there are many distortions in recordings of the era you're discussingOne interesting improvement is surprisingly little known- the Plangent Process.It uses a special tape head that is much wider bandwidth than those available at the time the recordings were made- wide enough to detect the bias signal laid down on the tape.

Now why would one want to do that? It's way above the range of human hearing.

Heres why: The bias signal is laid down on the tape by a high frequency oscillator that is extremely stable in frequency. When the tape is played back, however, speed variations of several types are introduced- speed drift, wow, flutter. By digitizing the oriiginal source at an extremely high sample rate, the bias signal- including fluctuations in its frequency due to those faults- can be detected and used to provide a 'map' of these artifacts on the tape and tune them out almost completely.

A good example is the 'Kind of Blue' sold by HDTracks. If you are a fan of this recording, you need to buy this. Period.

Plangent, however, will not remove other distortions like tape saturation, modulation noise, or the other distortions these recordings are replete with- but evey litlle improvement helps, and often these recordings can end up sounding better then they have a right to- depending strongly on what generation the work is being done from.

More info on Plangent:https://21f72ab1-6f23-4640-a146-4565b99a5d53.filesusr.com/ugd/2aa449_e428f2e04d794cd2b527402e0327fb6c.pdf

Thank you so much for such a great explanation.  The BIG thanks goes out to the HDTracks version of Kind of Blue.........oh my.  I've been listening to it on Quboz this whole time (used to have the SACD version) and it's NIGHT AND DAY different.  The warmth and immediacy of this version is so much better, everything is better!

Great.......I thought I was happy with Quboz but this just blew my mind.......schitt (it's allowed that way) ;)

dB Cooper

Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #3 on: 8 Oct 2021, 02:12 am »
No problem. And there's nothing wrong with Qobuz per se; there's just no substitute for SQ in the source material and Plangent takes you a (big) step closer to the original sound, actually bettering the original master. Using the bias signal this way- impossible with vintage tape heads- is genius. It takes  the listener a step closer to what everybody heard in the studio, which is the whole point of all this, right?

uphoto

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #4 on: 8 Oct 2021, 02:35 am »
No problem. And there's nothing wrong with Qobuz per se; there's just no substitute for SQ in the source material and Plangent takes you a (big) step closer to the original sound, actually bettering the original master. Using the bias signal this way- impossible with vintage tape heads- is genius. It takes  the listener a step closer to what everybody heard in the studio, which is the whole point of all this, right?

Amen to that.

thomas collins

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Oct 2021, 01:56 pm »
i have a good collection of the old columbia 6 eyes that sound good to me.  i also have an ultrasonic cleaner which helps keep them sounding good.  almost everything on the pablo label sounds good and they had more modern recording techniques available.

dB Cooper

Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Oct 2021, 08:07 pm »
A followup: Some early analog material sounds better than it has any right to. In particular, mono and early stereo recordings that were done with simple signal paths and minimal 'production'. Later material- after the introduction of multitracking, mixdowns, dubbing, 'mastering','effects' and such- suffer from accumulation of distortion and noise artifacts, especially given the technologies used, which didn't do those things particularly well by modern standards.


I should have asked what type(s) of distortion you have noticed, given how may ways there are for it to creep in.

caryking

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #7 on: 27 Oct 2021, 12:35 am »
Thank you so much for such a great explanation.  The BIG thanks goes out to the HDTracks version of Kind of Blue.........oh my.  I've been listening to it on Quboz this whole time (used to have the SACD version) and it's NIGHT AND DAY different.  The warmth and immediacy of this version is so much better, everything is better!

Great.......I thought I was happy with Quboz but this just blew my mind.......schitt (it's allowed that way) ;)

Help me understand...  if I download the HD Tracks version of “Kind of Blue”, I guess in 192/24, it will be different than the Quboz version in 192/24?

uphoto

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #8 on: 2 Dec 2021, 03:57 am »
Help me understand...  if I download the HD Tracks version of “Kind of Blue”, I guess in 192/24, it will be different than the Quboz version in 192/24?

Yes, I didn't know it would be but it sure is.  I'm listening to it now actually.

@dB Cooper opening of So What on Kind of Blue has quite a bit when the first horns kick in (sax I think) around 52 sec mark and continue especially around the 1:20 mark in the song when the horns go back and forth.  It drives me mad at times.  Don't get it from his trumpet but more from the supporting horns. 

Just an example while I'm listening to it.

TubesGlo

Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #9 on: 9 Feb 2022, 06:58 pm »
I know this thread is rather quiet but if you're still interested, check out some of these/  Original Jazz Classics Remasters. One in particular that is great, Art Pepper Meets the Rythm Section. Excellent recording, one of the best I have.

Jeff_From_Michigan

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Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #10 on: 10 Feb 2022, 04:52 pm »
A lot of the Blue Note reissues are very enjoyable streamed on Qobuz (to my ears).

The 2012 remaster of Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue" is one example.

You can search Qobuz by typing in "Blue Note" then selecting "Label".

dB Cooper

Re: Best classic jazz recordings with no distortion?
« Reply #11 on: 10 Feb 2022, 07:04 pm »
Help me understand...  if I download the HD Tracks version of “Kind of Blue”, I guess in 192/24, it will be different than the Quboz version in 192/24?
I don't have Qobuz anymore so can't say for sure. If you could get both the files (Qobuz sells as well as streams), you could perform a standard null test to determine if the files are the same or not. (Invert one of the files and merge the two). If they are, they will cancel out and you will you will get a straight line. Only downside is you'd have to buy two copies of the album. I have the 24/96. I don't see any real need to go higher than that with a non-NR analog recording from the late '50's on a tape machine that was limited to 15kHz bandwidth.