AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 5 May 2007, 01:39 am
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http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm
Superbly helpful article...merits as a sticky for reference at all times. A good review for basics for even experienced vinyl-istas :thumb:
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Excellent!
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I especially note, and second the article's comments about, setting anti-skate via the Hi Fi News and Record Review test record.
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My Empire 598 has a arm length of 9.00" and an overhang of .719" rotating the cartridge angle on the Enjoythemusic spreadsheet will give tremendous variations on the 2 null points and maximum distortion. While it is impossible to "eyeball" in an angle, the tonearm designer has usually done you a favor by putting a flat reference surface on the tonearm head. But that was for his favorite alignment.
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I am re-entering the vinyl world after an almost 25 year hiatus. Half inch mount cartridge allignment seems to be the only thing that has not been simplified after all these years. This task is still only tolerable when stoned.
How about a swivel loc system with a simple nut tightener at the top of the headshell with simple gradation marks. Delrin would cut the weight down. Hell with it, I am just gonna design one.
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I just set up my Technics MK2 1200 with a Denon dl 160 cartridge-- and last night I played the Hi-Fi News record. During the Bias check tones on side 3, I heard no distortion on the 1st of the three tones, but there was buzzing in the right channel on the 2nd. According to this setup guide I've got to adjust the bias, and by this I understand it to mean the Anti-skating. But I moved the anti-skating dial to match the tracking weight setting on the counter weight. But this didn't change the distortion.
(The tracking weight had been set for 1.9, 1.6 +/- 3 being what the DL-160 specifies in its instructions-- I'm not using a tracking force guage)
What should I do? Adjust the tracking Weight? why doesn't the tracking force setting affect the buzzing?
Should I be using a tracking force gauge?
Thanks anyone.
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I just set up my Technics MK2 1200 with a Denon dl 160 cartridge-- and last night I played the Hi-Fi News record. During the Bias check tones on side 3, I heard no distortion on the 1st of the three tones, but there was buzzing in the right channel on the 2nd. According to this setup guide I've got to adjust the bias, and by this I understand it to mean the Anti-skating. But I moved the anti-skating dial to match the tracking weight setting on the counter weight. But this didn't change the distortion.
(The tracking weight had been set for 1.9, 1.6 +/- 3 being what the DL-160 specifies in its instructions-- I'm not using a tracking force guage)
What should I do? Adjust the tracking Weight? why doesn't the tracking force setting affect the buzzing?
Should I be using a tracking force gauge?
Thanks anyone.
Yes, you should definitely use a tracking force gauge. The calibration using only the counterweight scale is iffy. After you confirm the tracking force (yes, 1.9g is good for the DL-160) you would adjust antiskate until the channels either don't distort or reach distortion at the same track. Distortion in the right channel only would seem to indicate the antiskate is set too low. The stylus isn't keeping good contact on the right side of the groove.
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I'm not sure what I'm looking for with this test on the Hi-Fi News, as seen in this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guDmz2ILuo4
When I did this test yesterday with the same setup, I can't tell where the maximum vibration is occurring -- it starts vibrating at maybe 15hz and starts to wane only at 7hz. Is this bad, should it be clear where the max vibration is occurring?
In the video, i can't see the vibration, but the audio seems to indicate the most vibration is around 9hz in the test.
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Conrad Hoffman is a genius. Make your own arc based on pivot to spindle distance.
http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm (http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm)
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I think most would answer that 15hz is a little high. You hear 8-12 mostly but have you tested with some material w/ low freqs? Like some organ LPs?
DC
I'm not sure what I'm looking for with this test on the Hi-Fi News, as seen in this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guDmz2ILuo4
When I did this test yesterday with the same setup, I can't tell where the maximum vibration is occurring -- it starts vibrating at maybe 15hz and starts to wane only at 7hz. Is this bad, should it be clear where the max vibration is occurring?
In the video, i can't see the vibration, but the audio seems to indicate the most vibration is around 9hz in the test.
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Just a couple questions from a newbie;
1. What determines which of the alignment programs to use? Lofgren A, B, or Stevenson A
2. There's several cartridge set up records on the market. Any recommendations?
Thanks for any help.
Mstef
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I'd avoid the Hi-Fi News one, at least the sweep. An acquaintance of mine emailed me this after looking at some of my needle drops:
"The HFNRR frequency sweep is crap. Do not use it.
The reason should be clearly obvious if you open it up in Audacity in a spectrogram view: the sweep speed is nowhere near constant. In fact, it speeds up significantly around 700hz.... which, not coincidentally, is right around where the frequency response drops in your plots.
My (cynical) hypothesis is that Len Gregory mastered this track by manually turning the dial on an oscillator from 20hz to 20khz. He did advertise that this was an all-analog mastering..... bleh."
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Thanks DC, I'll keep that in mind.
Mstef
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G'day all, for what it's worth this is the approach to cartridge overhang that I use with excellent results every time! http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html
Regards, Felix.
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Just saw this link, Felix. Nice explanation and photos, thanks! I have the HFNRR record, will check for the gauge inside. In the meantime, I've been using Wayner's Way Excellent setup laminates.
Paul
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I have been trying quite a few cartridges on my turntable(s) that I started to notice that at the null points which I use quite often I am really looking at whether or not the cartridge is tracking parallel with the set of grooves under the cartridge body looking straight down (and not putting the needle down). Given that this ignores variations in the angle of the cantilever coming out of the body.
I will still use the protractors, but this saves a lot of time not looking under the body. Once you have the cartridge set at the right distance that the arc produces two null points at the appropriate positions then it is time for lighting up the shadows. Works for me.
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I used this guide numerous times -> http://vacuumstate.com/fileupload/GuruSetUp.pdf
and here is a link to the guru's protractor -> http://vacuumstate.com/fileupload/Guru_protractor.pdf
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For those unfamiliar with the guru's alignment, it is 1.27mm behind the traditional Baerwald null points, maintaining the same angle.
This has been calculated to be a bogus alignment. If you maintain the same angle behind the alignment arc, the resultant nulls are misaligned.
For those interested in the calculations there's an article in Vinyl Engine which goes through the math/geometry. Some people swear by this alignment. You can try it for yourself if you want.
neo
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Hey there, my first post...new member. What a great forum!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113261)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113262)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113263)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113261)
I have used this reference as a learning guide along with the Hi-Fi News test record. As a newby, this link summed it up best for me. I have a Polestar arm and a ZYX cart on a new table I received late Oct 2014. Its been a great ride so far... "Anvil Turntable" made here in Detroit. Falling in love with all my old favorites and spending lots on new vinyl. Check out the pics. Thanks for a great site.
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Looking good and WELCOME TO AC!!!!!
Paul
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Hey there, my first post...new member. What a great forum!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113261)
I have used this reference as a learning guide along with the Hi-Fi News test record. As a newby, this link summed it up best for me. I have a Polestar arm and a ZYX cart on a new table I received late Oct 2014. Its been a great ride so far... "Anvil Turntable" made here in Detroit. Falling in love with all my old favorites and spending lots on new vinyl. Check out the pics. Thanks for a great site.
Great looking 'table! Is that orange metallic flake on the motor and base?
Welcome!
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Hello!
I've had a Pioneer PL 516 sitting in my closet for some years and have decided to try and get it going again. A while back I had lent it to a friend and he put a Shure M70EJ on it. I hadn't listened to it until a couple months ago and when I did it sounded terrible. So I went to school a bit on turntables, cartridges, alignment procedures and the like and of course it's all a little more involved than one is ever initially aware of. I decided to upgrade a bit and get the proper alignment tools and start from scratch. I ordered an Ortofon 2M Red and an Ortofon headshell, Ortofon protractor, a digital jewel gauge good to two decimal places, and a few other odds and sods. I also have a test record coming with an anti-skate section.
So this morning is a beautiful sunny Sunday, and being -27C outside I figured I'd at least get the cartridge and headshell installed and aligned, and the tracking weight set up. But I've run into a couple of issues. First, the fine adjustment wheel of the counter weight doesn't seem to actually do anything - turning the dial makes no difference, and second, though I haven't got to the point of really dealing with it, the anti-skate adjustment seems out of whack - when I was aligning the cartridge on the inner null point, the arm wanted to pull towards the outside of the record and the adjustment dial was already set at 0.
I wasn't thinking I was going to get into any serious listening, but I did have hopes of maybe spinning a few albums today. Kind of like dusting the Harley off for spring and finding the battery you've had on the trickle charger all winter is dead.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Hi Trismos,
Most similar turntables (tonearms) don't have a fine adjustment knob. Usually the front of the counterweight will have a calibration dial that can be turned independently. That's set to zero when you balance the arm. Once set, the counterweight and dial is turned as a single unit - counterclockwise until the correct weight is applied according to the dial. If you have a scale you can ignore it.
The most common cause of the antiskating problem is not being level. If the platter is level and this is occurring the spring could be stuck. If this is the case there's a service manual in Vinyl Engine library - free download, or you might be able to access it from the AS dial.
A word of caution about using a test record to set AS. People invariably set it too high trying to get the highest level. Optimal AS will vary according to offset angle and groove velocity. I suggest viewing from the front and getting the cantilever reasonably centered with normal source material. It's better to have too little than too much.
neo
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Thanks very much Neo
I discovered how the counter weight worked on a YouTube vid (and felt a tad silly for it but hey...).
I am quite frankly very pleased with the way it turned out and spent the afternoon listening to old records and going on-line and ordering some more :)
Perhaps you could chime in on this, or send me to another thread:
1. The interconnects on the table really look right out of the Radio Shack going out of business bin. Is it worth replacing these or is that something of a lesser priority?
2. I'm running the turn table into an old NAD Monitor Series 1000 pre-amp. Would I get a significant upgrade in SQ by going to an independent pre-amp like the Cambridge Audio 651P?
Thx for your help.
Tris
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Hi Tris,
A couple of tricky questions here. Even though the stock cables look cheap they're most likely low capacitance, and that's what you need for your MM.
Replacing them could easily make it sound worse, messing up the frequency response. I also don't know if installation is straightforward. If you have auto functions the cables could be tied into a junction strip of some kind. In any case, better to look before you leap.
One thing you could do that's relatively easy, is replace the RCA plugs. This could be very affective if the old plugs aren't making good contact. Like these:
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-rean-nys373-2-rca-plug-connector-black-with-red-indicator--092-113
If you replace the cable you need low capacitance. Belden 1505 is 17 pF/ft, but it might be too thick. Signal Cable has their Silver Resolution Phono cable advertised at 18.9 pf/ft.
I'm not familiar with the NAD. I am familiar with the earlier stuff from the '80s. It's half decent, rather polite and transistor sounding, but listenable. I'm reasonably sure you can do better, probably much better, but I suspect you might need to prioritize. Do you have an RCM? If not, this should top your list.
Once that's taken care of, you might want to check out this one:
http://www.vista-audio.com/products/phono-1mkII/index.htm
neo
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Thx Neo
I am not familiar with "RCM"?
Tris
Edit: Record Cleaning Machine? Really? If so, please elucidate :)
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RCM is an acronym for a Record Cleaning Machine, like the VPI HW16.5, Nitty Gritty, KL Audio, etc.
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Along with the record player itself, clean records are the most critical factor in attaining good SQ and record longevity, more so than upgrading a half decent phono stage. Surface cleaning doesn't get down into the groove and your needle will embed the dirt. That's what wears out records. Clean records played with a "good" needle will last a lifetime. Vinyl is very resilient, but the needle puts tremendous pressure (per square inch) on the groove walls and heats up the vinyl. Dirt gets ground in.
You'll be amazed at the difference in SQ. Trust me on this, a better phono stage will be more revealing of what's fed into it.
Although some are expensive it doesn't have to cost a fortune.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RDV
KAB has a similar one where you use your own vacuum - $169. Machines with a platter are more expensive. VPI 16.5 is $649.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VP16.5
Even bran new records should be cleaned before play. Older or used records will sound significantly better.
neo
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I am awaiting a new Ortofon MC-20 cartridge arriving anyday now. Traded for my AT LP120 turntable and old Pioneer receiver that I was not using to another AC member here. I did mention setting it up in the room I store overflow vinyl, but my wife seemed not overly enthusiastic. I guess two TT setups is my limit (for now). :lol:
Is there any reason to purchase a protractor for setting things up? I have used vinylengine in the past to print whatever I need, but just wondered what more experienced people use. Is there a list of must have equipment to make the many adjustments more precise and easier to accomplish? Are the tools I need already available to download? Any help would be great.
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http://www.accutrak.us/
Ken Willis Protractor
I use this one had it made up for my arm /TT.
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Thanks bacobits1. Now I want some bacon, you got some kind of subliminal message going on there. :o
How do you set up VTA? Most cartridges I have used don't have a flat bottom, causing me to constantly second guess my VTA. As if there are not enough items to second guess.
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A lined 3X5 Index card aligned to the top of the headshell to get level then from there by ear, very small increments.
I also have a clear lined scribe acrylic block I think I got on EBay.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=133170)
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Better to lower arm onto middle of record and to stand a lined index card on record surface and gently lean it against arm. Get eyes down to arm level and sight squarely on arm/card. Much easier to see tilt along arm length than headshell. Start parallel, adjust by ear. Quite easy, actually.
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The pict is not on the vinyl but yes. The card is easier because of the longer lines.
Not really, the headshell is what you want level cant go by the whole length of the arm (very deceiving) especially if it is tapered like a Rega. It all comes out close enough though don't it? It has always here.
Take it one step further you change the VTA you have to adjust the Vertical Tracking Weight again too.
Lower the arm you add weight, raise it up you subtract.
I gotta go check my alignment now, see what happens when you have too much time on your hands. :scratch:
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Not really, the headshell is what you want level cant go by the whole length of the arm (very deceiving) especially if it is tapered like a Rega.
Dunno that I agree with this.....
Any halfway decent arm (and headshell) that is machined properly (and we can probably assume that is almost always the case) will have an arm tube that is parallel to record surface when the headshell is. Therefore, they are in synch, and the armtube can be used as a proxy for the headshell. Due to its longer length, it's much easier to determine armtube than headshell tilt.
For tapered arm tubes it's only a little bit harder. Lay index card in front of armtube. Compare middle of armtube at headshell end and pivot end to a line. If necessary, cut bottom of card to make a line be at mid-tube at headshell end. It is then quite easy to see if that same line is above / below the armtube's midpoint at pivot end.
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Thanks guys. I'm cheap so I printed a blank Excel spreadsheet onto card stock to try.
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A little trick I use with 'square' body cartridges (ex. Denon 103). Because I find it difficult to determine exact parallel with curved arm tube.
Place a small, right angle square on a record while the needle is down and not moving. The vertical side of the square should now be perpendicular to the record surface. Slide the square up to the front, vertical, face of the cartridge body. Using a your eyes or magnifying glass adjust arm base heigh until the cart is parallel with the vertical side of the square...
Exact same as parallel arm tube; I just find it easier and repeatable to go off the square cartridge 'box' rather than the arm tube. From there I adjust +/- 2mm by ear.
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Not as easy with this cart. :|
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=133186)
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Steve, same exact thing can be done w an index card, as it is rectangle w right angles. Lots safer for the cart if things slip and it comes crashing down.
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Anybody know where you can get a microscope for setting the stylist rake angle. Are they made specific for turntable applications
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http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm
Superbly helpful article...merits as a sticky for reference at all times. A good review for basics for even experienced vinyl-istas :thumb:
Seems like the site was moved to here:
http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2016/1/17/a-beginners-guide-to-cartridge-setup
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Another one with a lot of info:
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttadjust.html
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I've been working on a printable template to take the pain out of (repeatable) cartridge setup. My reference is a Teres 255 table with an Origin Live tonearm. It relies on Doug Deacon's ear for Pivot-to-Spindle length (for an Origin Live arm), and John Elison's Baerwald Alignment spreadsheet for the rest of the mathematical calculations.
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Not to rain on your parade, but the work has already been done. The link was posted on the first page of this thread, here it is again. http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm
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Great information in this thread. new member and found it very helpful.
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Hi, I will 2nd that & have used Conrad's alignment gauge on many cartridges over there last few years . The great thing is it gives the user a choice of 3 different alignment methods and it's FREE.
Cheers Derek
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And if you hit the customize button there's actually an infinite number of alignments. Most everyone should stick to one of the three standard alignments, but when I was heavily into vinyl we messed around with various parameters. The lead in and run positions are very arbitrary and have changed dramatically on newer high fidelity recordings. Conrad is a great guy, I don't know what we'll do if he leaves us, and his site offers all kinds of free calculators and good info.
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So for about a year and a half now I thought my turntable sounded really good. My phono stage $ is not on par with my cartridge $$$, but it was pleasing so I spent elsewhere to upgrade and chalked up any lacking in the system to that. My turntable is the Schiit Sol which is quite good sounding, has enough adjustments to make your head spin, and definitely responds to some tweaks to make the user experience even better. When I first set up the table, I spent a good 3 hours making sure everything was right. Cartridge was aligned, VTA was good, bought a little digital scale for tracking force, etc. As I kept tweaking and getting better sound I focused on the phono stage being my bottleneck. On a whim, I decided to get a usb microscope to make sure my VTA was on point. From the photos I took during my setup before, it was damn near on at the recommended 20° but I wanted to make sure. When I hooked up the microscope, I found I was pretty damn close at 18.2°. Not bad for eyeballing with a phone camera. In reality, the joke was on me. As I dropped the needle after adjusting the vta to the correct 20°, I realized the MASSIVE error of my ways. Everything I thought was a flaw in my system was a flaw in my turntable setup. The bass muddyness cleared up, detail and separation were more complete, the depth of soundstage so much more palpable. It's quite embarrassing and somewhat comical at how using a $20 tool used for 10 minutes could benefit my stereo so much to bring out the music properly. As I'm typing this, I'm just giggling to myself how incredible this sounds. I will never again make the mistake of a "looks good enough" setup. Now, back to the music!