AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vapor Audio => Topic started by: Vapor Audio on 30 May 2014, 08:47 pm
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100238)
Room is setup and ready to go at Newport after a long Drive the Joule White is ready to play the center of attention in another great system partnered with Empirical Audio, Clayton Audio, and featuring the Antipodes music server. The room is sounding great, look forward to seeing all of you here.
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Don't you think those Claytons are a bit over the top for that small room?
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The Vapor room was one of the best sounding last year. I'm sure it will be again this year.
I like the look of these better than the Nimbus, and those were beauties.
I'll be there on Sunday.
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Don't you think those Claytons are a bit over the top for that small room?
I enjoyed my Clayton's (M-200 & M-300) but can't imagine using them in a show environment. Hope the AC works well!
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Don't turn on the AC and the amps. Ha.
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I have the Clayton S100 and it is really one of the best amps I have ever heard, pair that with that Empircal audio DAC which I think without a doubt is the best on the market bar none and then pair that with the top of the line Vapor Audio speakers, that has got to be one great sounding room (so long as the room acoustics aren't terrible.) This is my dream system and it is almost within my reach :). I look forward to seeing insights into how this room actually sounds. As far as too much amp for a small room, that doesn't even make sense, you can always turn an amp up or down within a room to get the most out of a speaker, especially with a 3 way design where it may use more power than a 2 way design due to impedance and more drivers and what not.
great room Ryan!
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sharpsuxx: Just curious ......... Vapor, Clayton, Empirical, I understand, classy stuff, but Antipodes (server) doesn't rate?
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Hell ya they do.... I have not heard the server, but I use their Reference interconnects and speaker cables, and they are absolutely amazing. I'm a fan.
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Some more pics of the Joule Whites at Newport 2014. It has been a great how in California this year. You can see some of detail from the veneer on the sides to really see what the finish looks like.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100385)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100386)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100387)
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Just added a video of the system playing at T.H.E Show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWmHRE1EU6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWmHRE1EU6c)
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Gorgeous, as always.
I notice that the stands are different than on some previous builds. I imagine these are customizeable?
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Ryan, Great show, wonderful meeting you and Pete, the speakers are lovely, I hope the rest of the show went well for you and that the drive home is a easy as ours was today. Andi and I talked all the way home to San Jose about how wonderful they looked and how well they sounded.
phil
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sharpsuxx: Just curious ......... Vapor, Clayton, Empirical, I understand, classy stuff, but Antipodes (server) doesn't rate?
I have heard the Antipodes server and it does sound quite good. To be honest I haven't heard a Music Server that really set itself apart from the rest yet. The Empirical stands apart from every DAC I have ever heard, and the Clayton Audio is perfect for people who love tube sound but need more power, such a great musical sounding amp.
Agreed though the Antipodes is a great unit, just hasn't made itself dream system material for me yet.
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I was in the Vapor room Sunday, and thought it sounded great! The bass was overpowering for the room, but I thought the overall tone and imaging were really nice. Although the finish on the speakers was not my taste, I thought they looked really nicely finished. Those are some big speakers and massive amps.
I loved the looks and sound of the new Empirical line. Great work Steve.
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The engineering and finish on the Joules looks flawless. I didn't realize the sides were veneered at first. What is the paint and wood used? Is the veneer dyed?
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I have owned the M300 but ran into constant reliability issue of sending them back and forth, I also found the build quality on the amplifier not that great for the asking price of 18,000 dollars. Great amplifier but its a shame these seem to have reliability problems or noise issues. Search on Audiogon you will see countless post on that. Apart from build and certain issues i agree they are top sounding amplifiers, My Atma MA2 since replaces them and have no need to ever change amplifiers again.
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The engineering and finish on the Joules looks flawless. I didn't realize the sides were veneered at first. What is the paint and wood used? Is the veneer dyed?
Thanks for the kind words ...
The paint a 3-stage candy red. Base color is a VERY metallic pewter grey with transparent red layered on top to the desired final effect. The final color can be varied greatly based on how much transparency coat is applied. The veneer is Sapele Pomelle which starts as a very gold color, and then was covered with about 15 coats of bright red toned urethane gloss.
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Comments on WBF:
"sound I wanted to like:
Vapor/Clayton- again, we have an integration issue. the mids/highs had promise on friday, but i was hesitant on the bass and thought it could be room related- however, upon a second listen perhaps the transmission line gave the dreaded 1-note bass or the woofer was too slow for the package. It was distracting."
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Next year get a bigger room so we can hear them. Everyone wants you to be successful. I'd like to hear a pair before I buy them.
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Friday was a particularly bad day to hear the system because the Clayton amps had virtually no break-in. Sunday they were finally singing. One also had a wiring error in it that I fixed on Saturday night, allowing the use of the Final Drives on Sunday, which put it over the top. We were running it all night every night and unfortunately the noise interfered with a neighbors sleep one night. We did not know he was there and tried to check before hand. I was told that sleeping room was not supposed to be there anyway. :oops:
A conductor of the LA Philharmonic or Symphony came in on Sunday and told us that it was just like standing at his perch directing. He said his system was a LOT more expensive with big name equipment and did not sound nearly as lifelike. He also dragged in another backup conductor to hear it.
I consider it my best show ever, beating all previous ones for SQ. :thumb:
Planning to get that room again for 2015, but this time GIK acoustics will do the treatments.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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Comments on WBF:
"sound I wanted to like:
Vapor/Clayton- again, we have an integration issue. the mids/highs had promise on friday, but i was hesitant on the bass and thought it could be room related- however, upon a second listen perhaps the transmission line gave the dreaded 1-note bass or the woofer was too slow for the package. It was distracting."
I've done my share of shows now, and can say that was the most resonant room I've ever been in. Good news is that Glenn and Shelly from GIK said that next year they'll make sure that isn't an issue :)
The bass was distracting, I was aggravated. That speaker has the most tuneful and resolved bass of any of our speakers, and some of the best I've ever heard. But that wasn't apparent at the show. In the front row it was MUCH more balanced, but the back row was a bit of a mess. Seasoned listeners should know that such a drastic change over a 3' distance points squarely at a room issue. At low volumes it wasn't able to excite the back wall and was much more balanced as well. But at higher volumes one could easily feel the back wall vibrating like a drum skin sympathetically with the bass, it was basically producing it's own much time-delayed bass track centered at 80-90hz.
But, the reality is it's OUR job to give the listener tools they need to help deal with room issues. I've been in the car for about 1500 miles now, and among other things I'm doing in the passenger seat is designing a network that will give the listener bass room tuning options with the flick of a switch. And doing it in a way that will introduce minimal parts into the chain. It will be simple and elegant, I wish I'd done it before the show. Or at least wish I had called GIK prior and partnered with them at Newport.
I'm sure feedback from this show will be split by those who sat in the front row, and those who sat in the rear.
But it is looking like Joule White will make another appearance at the CA Show in San Francisco, with the room compensation network in place.
Just to show how well our CNC cut tapering transmission line is working, take a look at this nearfield measured output. I know measurements don't mean much to many of you, but what this is showing is near textbook port performance with VERY low resonances. That means far less port resonance coloration, and better tone from the woofer - which just happens to be the finest woofer of it's size on the planet. So no, one-noteishness is NOT something the Joule will exhibit, but the room the Joule is in can.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100483&size=huge)
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I've done my share of shows now, and can say that was the most resonant room I've ever been in. Good news is that Glenn and Shelly from GIK said that next year they'll make sure that isn't an issue :)
The bass was distracting, I was aggravated. That speaker has the most tuneful and resolved bass of any of our speakers, and some of the best I've ever heard. But that wasn't apparent at the show. In the front row it was MUCH more balanced, but the back row was a bit of a mess. Seasoned listeners should know that such a drastic change over a 3' distance points squarely at a room issue. At low volumes it wasn't able to excite the back wall and was much more balanced as well. But at higher volumes one could easily feel the back wall vibrating like a drum skin sympathetically with the bass, it was basically producing it's own much time-delayed bass track centered at 80-90hz.
But, the reality is it's OUR job to give the listener tools they need to help deal with room issues. I've been in the car for about 1500 miles now, and among other things I'm doing in the passenger seat is designing a network that will give the listener bass room tuning options with the flick of a switch. And doing it in a way that will introduce minimal parts into the chain. It will be simple and elegant, I wish I'd done it before the show. Or at least wish I had called GIK prior and partnered with them at Newport.
I'm sure feedback from this show will be split by those who sat in the front row, and those who sat in the rear.
But it is looking like Joule White will make another appearance at the CA Show in San Francisco, with the room compensation network in place.
Just to show how well our CNC cut tapering transmission line is working, take a look at this nearfield measured output. I know measurements don't mean much to many of you, but what this is showing is near textbook port performance with VERY low resonances. That means far less port resonance coloration, and better tone from the woofer - which just happens to be the finest woofer of it's size on the planet. So no, one-noteishness is NOT something the Joule will exhibit, but the room the Joule is in can.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100483&size=huge)
Since your marketing plan is based on no dealers and performance at audio shows, I'd say you screwed up at Newport.
I'd love to hear your speakers(no dealers), they look great, but I don't understand why you have all those options....does WA or Magico do this?
If you want to establish some performance credibility, send your speakers to Stereophile for review.
PS, find another show partner other than Empirical Audio, who always seems to be making excuses.
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Do you do shows? Make audio equipment? What's wrong with options? I believe this is what sets them apart.
I have been to a couple audio shows in the last few years (not this latest Newport, unfortunately). I have only heard a couple rooms where the systems sounded as good and were as finely tuned as my own system at home. It is not easy, and most vendors have new stuff to show that needs time to come around. A system that is run, tuned, and been at rest is not an easy task to accomplish in a 3 day event..
While I have never heard or owned Vapor equipment, I likely will. Empirical Audio makes fantastic products. I have had several pieces from Steve, and they never fail to deliver the goods. I find his excuses legitimate based on my findings at shows.
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Wow man.. That's insane!
Do you do shows? Make audio equipment? What's wrong with options? I believe this is what sets them apart. Not to mention the lack of dealer and marketing mark-up on prices.
I have been to a couple audio shows in the last few years (not this latest Newport, unfortunately). I have only heard a couple rooms where the systems sounded as good and were as finely tuned as my own system at home. It is not easy, and most vendors have new stuff to show that needs time to come around. A system that is run, tuned, and been at rest is not an easy task to accomplish in a 3 day event..
While I have never heard or owned Vapor equipment, I will. Empirical Audio makes fantastic products. I have had several pieces from Steve, and they never fail to deliver the goods. I find his excuses legitimate based on my findings at shows.
I stand by my post.
If their marketing plan is no dealers and performance at Audio Shows, they screwed up, and if Steve is this big time Audio Show vet, then they need a new a partner.
Get it right the first day of show or go home.
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Wow JHM. That was pretty rude. I'm all for solid criticism but rudeness discredits your message. This is their circle as well. Edit. Stereophile wouldn't give credibility for everyone. I won't read it anymore.
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Wow JHM. That was pretty rude. I'm all for solid criticism but rudeness discredits your message. This is their circle as well. Edit. Stereophile wouldn't give credibility for everyone. I won't read it anymore.
Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.
Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.
Feel the force, don't force the feel.
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I stand by my post.
If their marketing plan is no dealers and performance at Audio Shows, they screwed up, and if Steve is this big time Audio Show vet, then they need a new a partner.
Get it right the first day of show or go home.
Wow! Were you even there? It doesn't sound like you were. So if the rest of the show coverage trickles out and we're consistently mentioned as one of the better rooms, will you retract your statement? And where have your congratulations been at all the past shows where we have been mentioned consistently as one of the best if not THE best room at the show?
Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.
Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.
Feel the force, don't force the feel.
Did somebody pee in your Cheerios? We killed it at this show just like we do at every show, even with the bass issues. And unlike most manufacturers we're not blaming the room, but instead using it as a learning experience and motivation to further improve the design. You sound like someone, and I have no idea why, who has a personal axe to grind. What's the deal?
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What's the deal?
Looking at his/her other post, the issue seems to be that your speakers say Vapor and not Wilson. :green:
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There is no doubt that hotel rooms are not ideal environments to demonstrate loudspeakers and do critical listening. We attend these events with a certain amount of forgiveness for the situation. I walk out of most rooms that are untreated and for the most part don't have a demonstration agenda. They just play music and expect the customer to get what is going on with the speaker. We expect our most prized vendors to walk the walk when it comes to demo time.
You guys have a very special product. Please go the distance. I have been to two Newport shows where you have exhibited and been put off by the set up. I want to hear these speakers sing. Your products are on my short list for my next speaker purchase.
Adding GIK as a partner is a great plan. Anyone that stopped by the Odyssey room will be ranting about the system. They got a quality demonstration and the room with minimal treatment by GIK that allowed the system to shine as the star it is.
See you in SF. Looking forward to hearing what your speakers can really do.
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Well put Cheeseboy. :)
See you guys soon.
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Hi Guys and Gals! I have the Joule Whites and did not have any room treatment when Ryan installed them. They sounded good but now that I have GIK panels installed they sound fabulous!!!! The Vapor Speakers are quite special and the Joule whites sing like no other IMHO. Keep an open mind and listen to them next time in a GIK treated room and I think you will be amazed.
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There is no doubt that hotel rooms are not ideal environments to demonstrate loudspeakers and do critical listening. We attend these events with a certain amount of forgiveness for the situation. I walk out of most rooms that are untreated and for the most part don't have a demonstration agenda. They just play music and expect the customer to get what is going on with the speaker. We expect our most prized vendors to walk the walk when it comes to demo time.
You guys have a very special product. Please go the distance. I have been to two Newport shows where you have exhibited and been put off by the set up. I want to hear these speakers sing. Your products are on my short list for my next speaker purchase.
Adding GIK as a partner is a great plan. Anyone that stopped by the Odyssey room will be ranting about the system. They got a quality demonstration and the room with minimal treatment by GIK that allowed the system to shine as the star it is.
See you in SF. Looking forward to hearing what your speakers can really do.
I agree. Personally, I really like the Vapor speakers and the system they set up... and I spent a good amount of time at RMAF 2013 listening to them. It sounds like the issues with bass were similar at both shows and is something that needs a solution.
I think partnering with GIK will be a very good idea, as setting up for shows seems to be a separate talent vs building audio gear. I also agree the Odyssey setup is always very good and if Vapor can achieve similar results I think they will start getting very solid reviews all around.
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All this sounds great but what if the speakers sound great in a hotel room and suck at your home? That is way worse. Having it adjustable somehow is a great idea. Bass and space are dance partners. Room treatments look bad to me. Some are nice, but very few, and they are mainly first reflection treatments not bass treatments. I have two sets of adjustable speakers and like the flexibility.
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If it's just low end room issues, which just about every hotel room is going to have in spades, then any combination of these would work great:
http://www.rivesaudio.com/PARC/PARCframe.html
http://www.msr-inc.com/studio/springtrap/springtrap.html
http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html
Or, use a J River (or Amara) based server and use the built in PEQ. (Even then, the springtraps and Spatial would be nice adds.) Or, have Keith Yates sell you two monster tube traps and put them in any two corners of the rooms.
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I would kiss the feet of the designer that developed bass traps and treatments that looked like regular household furnishings. The Synergistic room correction approach was very interesting and got my attention at the show. Magic Dots. They were taking the "treatments" out of the room to demonstrate their effectiveness. I don't know how I feel about these products yet.
I would rather that Ryan focus his energy on designing the best speakers that he can than have him compromise the integrity and raise the prices chasing bass modes in homes and hotels. GIK and others can do that. I live in the forest in a former vacation rental with more knotty pine than a Bonanza episode on the walls. I ended up purchasing a Dual Mode AntiMode to tame my bass problems. I think Emerald Physics uses a similar set up in their room. They always have killer diller chiller bass. And they are open baffle. I'm going to invest in some GIK Art Panels soon.
That said, presentation is everything. I think what we have here is a company who puts everything they have in the fit, finish, sound quality and design of thier gear. It shows. Sometimes we forget the customer, yes the pesky customers expect to hear the best. Partner with GIK. Play a pre selected rotation of music. Set structured demo times. Do the old Bose three step. Tell the customer what they are going to hear. Give them the music then take it away and ask it they heard it. Tie that down and ask for the order. Answer questions while another person writes up the orders and inquiries. Perhaps Ryan is having the same entrepreneurial seizure every small business owner has in the beginning. Perhaps it is time to grow another person in the company that does public appearances and Ryan is just the man behind the curtain. The pro from dover, business manager and audiophile guru.
It's not easy being a small business owner .
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Sometimes we forget the customer, yes the pesky customers expect to hear the best. Partner with GIK. Play a pre selected rotation of music. Set structured demo times. Do the old Bose three step. Tell the customer what they are going to hear. Give them the music then take it away and ask it they heard it. Tie that down and ask for the order. Answer questions while another person writes up the orders and inquiries. Perhaps Ryan is having the same entrepreneurial seizure every small business owner has in the beginning. Perhaps it is time to grow another person in the company that does public appearances and Ryan is just the man behind the curtain. The pro from dover, business manager and audiophile guru.
It's not easy being a small business owner .
Sorry cheeseboy, I edited your post to the part I want to comment on. Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo? :duh: They would get :flame:
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The 2014 Newport Show was great. It was my second consecutive year in attendance.
I went Floor by Floor, but always returned to the 10th Floor corner suite occupied by VAPOR AUDIO (Vapor Suite). Problem with this Vapor Suite was its size. Eventhough the Vapor Suite featured 2 rows of seating, time and time again, it was always standing room only.
At last year's Newport Show, I was impressed with the Nimbus Black, BUT myself and many others in attendance that I talked with were completely blown away by this year's, Joule White design. In fact, I attended this show on Friday and returned again on Sunday, just hoping to occupy a seat in the front row.
Like most audio enthusiasts, I brought along couple of my CDs to directly compare my music that I am familiar with in my uber expensive home setup with/to the Vapor Suite setup. My CDs were ripped via a music server and my demo was ready. The dynamics, holographic effect, sparkling highs way out to the nether regions and absolute clarity in vocals/midrange were stunning that I had never ever experienced from these CD's before! I also sensed a more controlled low bass between my Friday and Sunday demos. So on Sunday, I added hard-hitting/tight/fast bass to my Friday list of dynamics, holographic effect, sparkling highs way out to the nether regions and clarity in vocals/midrange subsequent to another demo of my same CD's.
I definitely placed my name on the long order list for a Joule White. Thanks again to Ryan, Pete and Steve for your professionalism, creativity, patience and availability to discuss any questions re build, upgrade options, custom home applications and tips, etc.
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Sorry cheeseboy, I edited your post to the part I want to comment on. Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo? :duh: They would get :flame:
Yes they would... :icon_twisted:
I think it's cool to play preselected music that the vendors think shows off their system... but you HAVE to play music people bring in or they really can't get a good comparison with other systems they hear. I won't take too much time in rooms that won't play music I bring in, there's only so much time to spend at shows and I don't want to waste it.
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Stereophile testing would show if their website data is fact or fiction.
Once again, if your marketing plans are based on performance at audio shows and you don't deliver the goods, you have a problem that fancy cabinets,expensive drivers and X-over components can't solve.
Feel the force, don't force the feel.
When I was a dealer back in the 80's, I was introduced to a man called Tom Goetz from Atlanta Georgia. He built speakers using the same drivers as all the other biggie companies out there, but had a very simple 6db per octave crossover. All he used was a coil and one capacitor for his crossover. The man could fine-tune every speaker by hand and ear, he was a genius. His speakers blew away everything by Thiel, Vandersteen, and Wilson made. Those were the a few of the biggies back then. So why don't you hear his name as a biggie today?
Goetz wanted more dealers, so a friend of mine offered to travel to the dealers and set them up. Even though the dealers heard how good they sounded, all they asked was where are the reviews? Without review,s all these dealers were not interested in carrying them.
So Tom boxed two pair up and sent them off to Stereophile and the TAS. Goetz even took out an ad in Stereophile that cost him hundreds of dollars. After three months of no word from the magazines, Goetz contacted the magazines. TAS boxed up their loaners and shipped them back to Goetz. Stereophile finally did the same thing, J. Gordon Holt wrote up a very damaging review that was never printed. He wrote that nobody could ever take these speakers seriously because they were a joke.
There were politics back then, politics going on even today. It is very tough to break the politics barrier with your components. Just because you make the very best in the world does not guarantee a favorable review with these reviewers. Tom Goetz was the perfect example.
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Sorry cheeseboy, I edited your post to the part I want to comment on. Do you realize how much flack they would catch from "pesky customers" (and a certain dynamic duo from AC who cover RMAF for Audio Circle each year) if they went to a structured, closed-door, their-music-only demo? :duh: They would get :flame:
Is your objection to a closed door structured demo or just not playing anything that comes in the door?
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Is your objection to a closed door structured demo or just not playing anything that comes in the door?
Both, although I might place limits on "anything" that comes through the door. Personally if a door is closed when I get there I might not make it back to that room. I also hate to be "locked in" for a set time period while someone babbles endlessly with too much self-importance. I have other places to be.
People who really want to hear a specific brand/speaker might tolerate a controlled performance to a degree then they will want to hear their own music. A big point is a closed room might miss some attendees that are not familiar with the brand but might become interested if they get to hear the speakers. I do not know about T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach but in 2013 there were over 240 hotel suites with audio gear at CES and T.H.E. Show Las Vegas. The show was open four days. Do the math.
But my point was not MY objection. I am not alone. Exhibitors have been sternly taken to task on this and other forums for demonstrations that were thought to be too controlled.
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We were more than willing to play music people brought in. The problem is that when you run a server, it wants to rip the whole disk and collect all of the album art and tags from the web. This can take 10 minutes easily. People think it can be done in 30 seconds.
I believe we ripped about 10 disks and copied 5 or 6 thumb-drives for attendees.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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You guys were great about playing the music I brought to RMAF 2013. :thumb:
People who don't play attendees music generally won't be visited again in the future, you can't see every room and not playing the music I brought is a great way to get axed. I would guess T&P and many other show attendees/reviewers feel the same way.
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Both, although I might place limits on "anything" that comes through the door. Personally if a door is closed when I get there I might not make it back to that room. I also hate to be "locked in" for a set time period while someone babbles endlessly with too much self-importance. I have other places to be.
People who really want to hear a specific brand/speaker might tolerate a controlled performance to a degree then they will want to hear their own music. A big point is a closed room might miss some attendees that are not familiar with the brand but might become interested if they get to hear the speakers. I do not know about T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach but in 2013 there were over 240 hotel suites with audio gear at CES and T.H.E. Show Las Vegas. The show was open four days. Do the math.
But my point was not MY objection. I am not alone. Exhibitors have been sternly taken to task on this and other forums for demonstrations that were thought to be too controlled.
Sorry I hope you don't think I'm singling you out as I'd really like to know what the balance is between just playing music in a room and some structure. I don't enjoy rooms that don't move the music quickly so I can hear different types. To your point there are 240 rooms and I want to hear something I like. I don't enjoy rooms where the host just puts on music at the end of every cut and doesn't engage the audience. I don't enjoy rooms where there is a personal cut of music being played and it sucks and it stays on for the duration of the cut. I don't enjoy rooms that do not have some sort of structured time to engage and teach about their product. I'd like to see the music available list on paper when I walk into a room. Why do I have to bring music if I know what they have to play. I could go on.
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Sorry I hope you don't think I'm singling you out as I'd really like to know what the balance is between just playing music in a room and some structure. I don't enjoy rooms that don't move the music quickly so I can hear different types. To your point there are 240 rooms and I want to hear something I like. I don't enjoy rooms where the host just puts on music at the end of every cut and doesn't engage the audience. I don't enjoy rooms where there is a personal cut of music being played and it sucks and it stays on for the duration of the cut. I don't enjoy rooms that do not have some sort of structured time to engage and teach about their product. I'd like to see the music available list on paper when I walk into a room. Why do I have to bring music if I know what they have to play. I could go on.
I am always torn about playing through an entire track. Some people want it and others want to hear something different. I usually try to find an inflexion point in the track and then switch to the next track to give people a variety that satisfies most in the shortest time interval. I also ask practically everyone coming in what they would like to hear. Most just shrug....
50% of the time the tracks that people bring are poorly recorded or they are strange choices, which reflects badly on the system and drives people from the room.
Steve N.
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That's so true. The person recorded it themselves and as it plays you can read peoples faces. They all say "I'm outta Here", Or it is their favorite marching band cut.
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Interesting quote from Jason Victor Serinus of Stereophile, I have yet to see his review of Vapor-Empircal room, but he points out that Peachtree and Amarra used the DSP system that comes with Amarra to tame their room. The Dirac system is also available from Amarra for a couple of hundred dollars, all you need is a mike, which they can also sell, and you have a built in very capable room DSP system. Ryan and Pete and whoever they partner with for the SF show in August should consider this small investment. As I understand it, the same speakers will be at that show.
"Jonathan Derda of Peachtree showed me the microphone that he and the Amarra folks used to measure 9 different spots in the room and custom tune Amarra's four filters to create a very linear room response. "Once you're done measuring, you can tweak the system for warmth, or create your own filters," he said."
Jason goes on to comment, ironically enough about Ryan Speakers
"The usual bass problems," I wrote about the Hilton's difficult-to-control rooms."
food for thought.
phil
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Those of us that have attended quite a few shows, know ahead of time what to expect from the rooms.
It is quite easy to take that into consideration when listening, and listen past those issues.
Yes, in a perfect world, it would be nice to hear the product as it is meant to sound. But I have no problems subtracting the room effects from what I am hearing.
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When I was a dealer back in the 80's, I was introduced to a man called Tom Goetz from Atlanta Georgia. He built speakers using the same drivers as all the other biggie companies out there, but had a very simple 6db per octave crossover. All he used was a coil and one capacitor for his crossover. The man could fine-tune every speaker by hand and ear, he was a genius. His speakers blew away everything by Thiel, Vandersteen, and Wilson made. Those were the a few of the biggies back then. So why don't you hear his name as a biggie today?
Goetz wanted more dealers, so a friend of mine offered to travel to the dealers and set them up. Even though the dealers heard how good they sounded, all they asked was where are the reviews? Without review,s all these dealers were not interested in carrying them.
So Tom boxed two pair up and sent them off to Stereophile and the TAS. Goetz even took out an ad in Stereophile that cost him hundreds of dollars. After three months of no word from the magazines, Goetz contacted the magazines. TAS boxed up their loaners and shipped them back to Goetz. Stereophile finally did the same thing, J. Gordon Holt wrote up a very damaging review that was never printed. He wrote that nobody could ever take these speakers seriously because they were a joke.
There were politics back then, politics going on even today. It is very tough to break the politics barrier with your components. Just because you make the very best in the world does not guarantee a favorable review with these reviewers. Tom Goetz was the perfect example.
You mean this Goetz? Read the reviews:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1289194539
I looked for Stereophile/TAS reviews but didn't find any...probably back issues from the 80's...
Best,
Anand.
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You mean this Goetz? Read the reviews:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1289194539
I looked for Stereophile/TAS reviews but didn't find any...probably back issues from the 80's...
Best,
Anand.
No review anywhere even though Goetz sent them to three magazines for a review. Tom's early speakers were boxes but when he designed the open baffles there were no comparison between them and the boxes. The boxes sounded better than any Thiels, the open baffles sounded better than the Vandersteens. These OB's imaged like an omni, there were no sweet spots in any listening position.
At the time I sold Goetz, Acoustats, Spica, Celestion, Spendor, Rogers, Thiel, Vandersteens, KEF, VMPS, and Duntech speakers.
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Interesting quote from Jason Victor Serinus of Stereophile, I have yet to see his review of Vapor-Empircal room, but he points out that Peachtree and Amarra used the DSP system that comes with Amarra to tame their room. The Dirac system is also available from Amarra for a couple of hundred dollars, all you need is a mike, which they can also sell, and you have a built in very capable room DSP system. Ryan and Pete and whoever they partner with for the SF show in August should consider this small investment. As I understand it, the same speakers will be at that show.
I did exactly this at the previous two or three shows, including Newport 2012 and 2013 with Vapor. I have a mic and spectrum analyzer app. The problem is we wanted to use the excellent Antipodes server, which does not currently give us that option.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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Steve,
Love to hear your insights into using a system like the Dual Core AntiMode and an upgrade DAC like yours. How does one do this and not lose the benefits of the upgrade? I just can't hang absorption and diffusion all over the house. But I still want a Meaning of Life digital music system.
Suggestions?
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Jason Victor Serinus liked your room:
"As I soon discovered in the Vapor Audio room, don't try to evaluate music sourced from the Antipodes DV music server ($3990) while it's in the midst of ripping files, because sound is compromised. Once the task was completed, a 24/192 reduction of Ivan Fischer's DSD recording of Mahler Symphony 4 exhibited fabulous depth and air, and Shelby Lynne's voice was again worth lovin'.
A listen to Reference Recordings' Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances also showcased the excellent, full-range sound and engaging depth produced by Vapor Audio Joule White loudspeakers ($12,995/pair). Also heard: Clayton Audio M300 monoblocks ($16,500/pair), DAC conversion via Empirical Audio's Overdrive ($6399) and Short Block USB filter ($199), a Final Drive Transformer Buffer ($2999), VH Audio Plasmatron power conditioning ($4000), cabling from Antipodes and Verastarr, and Hi-Fi Racks racks."
http://www.stereophile.com/content/show-2014-day-3-morning
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Jason Victor Serinus liked your room:
"As I soon discovered in the Vapor Audio room, don't try to evaluate music sourced from the Antipodes DV music server ($3990) while it's in the midst of ripping files, because sound is compromised. Once the task was completed, a 24/192 reduction of Ivan Fischer's DSD recording of Mahler Symphony 4 exhibited fabulous depth and air, and Shelby Lynne's voice was again worth lovin'.
A listen to Reference Recordings' Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances also showcased the excellent, full-range sound and engaging depth produced by Vapor Audio Joule White loudspeakers ($12,995/pair). Also heard: Clayton Audio M300 monoblocks ($16,500/pair), DAC conversion via Empirical Audio's Overdrive ($6399) and Short Block USB filter ($199), a Final Drive Transformer Buffer ($2999), VH Audio Plasmatron power conditioning ($4000), cabling from Antipodes and Verastarr, and Hi-Fi Racks racks."
http://www.stereophile.com/content/show-2014-day-3-morning
Since Stereophile are the purveyors of credibility, does that mean you take back your prior rant?
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Since Stereophile are the purveyors of credibility, does that mean you take back your prior rant?
No.
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No.
Somehow I didn't think you would ... foot was inserted far too deep for easy removal.
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Str8 trollage!!
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Somehow I didn't think you would ... foot was inserted far too deep for easy removal.
With your post above......
And this is how you loose your personal creditability and future customers. With this attitude of yours Ryan I wish you good luck!
No hard feelings.
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Why's that? Because he told some troll to go stick it? Hardly not IMO... He gained respect points with me.
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Agree and can't understand why it's so terrible for a manufacture to defend their company and call someone out for just causing trouble. I also find it laughable the passive aggressive comment of how credibility and future customers are lost, but hey "no hard feelings".
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I've never heard your speakers but I follow the Vapor circle. None of this has changed my perception that these beautiful products probably sound great. I would love to hear them in any environment. I was in the Venetian in Vegas two nights ago and there was a trio playing live in the atrium. The acoustics were horrid. There was a lot of reverberation. So much that the violin sound didn't even sound like it was coming from the actual instrument. I moved closer and it became clear enough to enjoy.
Knowing the basics of room interaction, I would move around at any show until it sounded the best. That may be difficult with lots of attendees but worth the wait if I really wanted to focus on a product.
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I've never heard your speakers but I follow the Vapor circle. None of this has changed my perception that these beautiful products probably sound great. I would love to hear them in any environment. I was in the Venetian in Vegas two nights ago and there was a trio playing live in the atrium. The acoustics were horrid. There was a lot of reverberation. So much that the violin sound didn't even sound like it was coming from the actual instrument. I moved closer and it became clear enough to enjoy.
Knowing the basics of room interaction, I would move around at any show until it sounded the best. That may be difficult with lots of attendees but worth the wait if I really wanted to focus on a product.
I'd say we've done enough shows so far, with excellent attendee response all around, to say that we're pretty good at dealing with poor acoustics found in hotel rooms. Look back through feedback from our rooms at all past shows, and this was the first where any room issues were even mentioned. This room was an aberration. The wall behind the seats in this room was quite literally resonating like the skin of a bass drum. At one point I was leaning against it with music playing at a spirited level, the wall hit is resonance and pushed me a good foot off ... it felt like the wall punched me in the back!
We ran out of space in the van to take the treatments I wanted, and while they certainly would have helped, they would not have fixed the issue. The only fix would be another constrained layer of sheetrock to be laid over the back wall. Maybe even to tear it open first and add more 2x4 bracing. I know some will think that's BS, that I'm just making excuses ... that's your choice. Overall however I was happy with how the room sounded so long as you were sitting in the front row. We did tweak placement enough that the front row was relatively balanced and still imaged quite nicely.
The one other thing I would have liked to try, but thought of it too late in the game, was to turn the entire setup 90 degrees and put the speakers on the long wall.
soundofrockets - I deleted your post the first time because it's pointless and has no place, but I guess you thought it important enough to re-post. Please just drop it. I'd say considering jhm told me I should have packed it up and went home on the first day (and he wasn't even there), and that I should dump my friend and long-time show partner Steve Nugent, that I responded pretty much attitude free.
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After every audio show the reviews talk about a lot of misses and a few hits as far as room set up and acoustics go. IMO, Vapor has a strong batting average in this area. I've seen several reviews where MBL's million dollar system didn't sound very good because of room or set up issues. Same with Wilson and Magico. It seems like at every show either the TAD floor standers or Standmounts are not sounding their best.
Since the guy who derailed this thread quoted somebody at WBF, let's take a look at some quotes from the HMIC over there, Myles Astor:
On acoustics and set up at these shows: "Hotel rooms are not built for sound and there's not a whole lot you can do with square rooms. We spend months setting up our speakers and one expects a manufacturer to do it in 8 hrs? Hardly. Put a bunch of bodies in it and all bets are off. Plus what do you do about 50 systems on an AC circuit that wasn't designed for that?"
On Vapor at Axpona 2014: “The most surprising sound of the show for me was from the Vapor Audio Derecho loudspeakers“
Positive Feedback said: “The room had a VERY big sound with lots of presence, Nice!“
Going back to a 2012 RMAF, Stereophile wrote about the Joule Black: :Playing M•A Recordings’ fabled CD of Sera Una Noche: La Segunda, his system nailed the timbre of instruments spot on. I was amazed at the depth he achieved from his small speakers, and took special note of the realistic decay of the sound of brushes on cymbals and bells being struck. “The hollow resonance of the percussion seems real,” I wrote in my notes."
Home Theater Shack: "The Vapor Audio room was a pretty exciting place to be, with two high end systems placed at each end of the large banquet room. The speaker's cabinetry is sharp, both from a form follows function aspect, and aesthetically. For me, this was one of the top three rooms I heard at RMAF 2013.
There are many more quotes just like these.
I'd say they know how to set up a room. Some rooms have problems that are just impossible to deal with.
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HiFiPlus mentions Vapor Joules--Vapor goes international
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100830)
Vapor Audio’s stunning looking Joule White, priced at $12,995. The black versus white difference is the hard v soft cone drivers, built to suit individuals tastes.
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Confessions of a Part time Audiophile reviews the Empircal/Vapor room.
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/06/21/newport-2014-empirical-vapor/