AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: mkriggs on 26 Jun 2022, 02:45 pm
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Whatever happened to the Line Force speaker design?
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Believe it is on indefinite hold due to lack of the correct B&G Neo drivers.
Don't think there has been an update on the possibility of replacement drivers in quite awhile.
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Thanks, that’s what I was afraid of
Can’t remember where I read it now, maybe this forum, but the Line Force looked to be the “holy grail”, better than even the NX series, but maybe that was only my imagination 🤪
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No, it's not your imagination.
The NX series are great, but...
The Line Force is the best I've ever heard... and it's not close. Rich Hollis and I were there as Danny was tweaking the crossover. Danny's created a lot of fantastic speakers, but that one was above the others.
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No, it's not your imagination.
The NX series are great, but...
The Line Force is the best I've ever heard... and it's not close. Rich Hollis and I were there as Danny was tweaking the crossover. Danny's created a lot of fantastic speakers, but one that was above the others.
Agree 100%. My grandson and I also got to hear the Line Force at Danny's. As much as I love my integrated NX-Otica's, if there was any way I could get a pair of Line Forces, I'd figure out a way to fit them into my room.
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Unfortunately, that NEO10 driver will never be on the DIY market again thanks to PS Audio and I doubt the GRS copy is anywhere close to as good.
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Unfortunately, that NEO10 driver will never be on the DIY market again thanks to PS Audio and I doubt the GRS copy is anywhere close to as good.
BG NEO10
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224312)
GRS 10"
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224313)
Both drivers were measured in the Super Mini baffle.
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Ouch
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The only likely hope is that one day the manufacturers that created the GR Neo3 based on the BG (but different enough to be legal) can do it again with the 10".
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From the sounds of what I'm hearing, there is a patent on the design that is owned by PS Audio. Does anyone know a date on that patent? They are only upheld for 15-20 years, so at some point in the future everyone can go hog wild with Neo10 drivers on everything. Could be good fun.
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From the sounds of what I'm hearing, there is a patent on the design that is owned by PS Audio. Does anyone know a date on that patent? They are only upheld for 15-20 years, so at some point in the future everyone can go hog wild with Neo10 drivers on everything. Could be good fun.
Not sure why PS Audio would hold the patent. I thought Christy Digital bought BG and their patents.
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Just speculation on my part. But if I was PS Audio and using the best mid range driver that exists on the planet in my new flagship speaker, I would do what I can to make sure I’m the only one that has access to them or at least guarantee myself unlimited supply of that driver.
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Not sure why PS Audio would hold the patent. I thought Christy Digital bought BG and their patents.
I'm not sure who holds the patent rights. Someone just mentioned PS Audio so I assumed that was it. Either way, if someone were to hold out long enough, they will be able to reproduce the line force speakers again in the future but it'll be a while.
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We're cutting 4 sets as we speak.
Don
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We're cutting 4 sets as we speak.
Please explain. Are you saying that you are cutting 4 sets of CNC cabinet panels?
So, are you implying the drivers ARE available? Or, are you just working with NOS parts?
I'm seriously considering GR Research for my end game speaker and prepared to buy VERY soon, so I'd love to know the reality of this situation re: the availability of the Line Force speaker series. Thank you.
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We do have a person who sent us a bunch of the GRS units last year to see how they work in a line array. The crossover will need to be different, but they should be usable.
Once the cabinets get here we can look to see how they perform.
IIRC, someone else on here was also able to grab a bunch of the original Neo10s from the last batch that PE was able to order.
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Correct, 2 gentlemen had purchased the needed 10's prior to there disappearance, and a 3rd will be using the GRS 10's. The Captain and I also cut a set for ourselves, just because. We had to wait almost a year to get the composite material so I do appreciate the patience that has been shown.
Cheers,
Don
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Correct, 2 gentlemen had purchased the needed 10's prior to there disappearance, and a 3rd will be using the GRS 10's. The Captain and I also cut a set for ourselves, just because. We had to wait almost a year to get the composite material so I do appreciate the patience that has been shown.
Cheers,
Don
Oh so you guys are also cutting a set for yourselves!!! Good stuff!!! :thumb:
And please keep us posted!
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Correct, 2 gentlemen had purchased the needed 10's prior to there disappearance, and a 3rd will be using the GRS 10's. The Captain and I also cut a set for ourselves, just because. We had to wait almost a year to get the composite material so I do appreciate the patience that has been shown.
Cheers,
Don
I'm one of the two who have been waiting for Don and Jay to finish the cabinets. I've been sitting on the NEO10 and NEO3 drivers and crossover parts since late 2020. I can't wait to get these built and am excited that they are getting close. 😁
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There are lots of folks here with many fine systems. But none that I think have clearly better speakers than my LS9's... Tyson's Serenity 7's are their equal, perhaps better in some ways, in some ways not as good. The current GR models? I'll take my LS9's. But when you have your Line Forces in place with the accompanying subs, that is a speaker system I'll be envious of.
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There are lots of folks here with many fine systems. But none that I think have clearly better speakers than my LS9's... Tyson's Serenity 7's are their equal, perhaps better in some ways, in some ways not as good. The current GR models? I'll take my LS9's. But when you have your Line Forces in place with the accompanying subs, that is a speaker system I'll be envious of.
Love both the LS9’s and the Serenity 7’s. Outstanding speakers. Haven’t had the opportunity to listen to the top of the line NX Series, but I would love to. Get the impression that while they are a bit different, they too are outstanding. And yes, the Line Force are a level above them all.
Wish I understood the issues surrounding the Patents on the B&G Neo drivers, and how much different a New Driver would have to be so that they would not violate the Patent.
The technology is not that different from other drivers is it?
Maybe a different material for the actual diaphragm and a different size (Neo 11?) would be enough to be safe?
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Here's the thread when went from the ground up and re-designed the original cabs . We really focused on attention to detail and creating a cabinet that would match the performance of these speakers.
Unfortunately, right after we cut the intial pair of these, the whole BG/Christie Digital scenario went down.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159717.0
As Don mentioned above, we were contacted by customers who had drivers so another run was initiated.... then the composite issues came up. Anyway, they are almost done and wil be very similar to the cabs in the thread above with a few modifications, beefier base, bolt on c/o board with tube connector blocks at front of board for low/high frequencies and a single pair at the rear of the board for input.
Hopefully pics soon
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243016)
jay
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243017)
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Glad to see some progress on these cabinets!
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So are we, the delay on materials has been painful to say the least, home stretch now however,
Don
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Man I'd love to buy a pair of these line forces if the grs 10's end up working out.
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I’m not sure these make sense for my room but I still would love a pair. Maybe a couple of my 4 daughters will want small weddings…. Or maybe I could roll this into a wedding budget as Reception Related expenses.
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From the sounds of what I'm hearing, there is a patent on the design that is owned by PS Audio. Does anyone know a date on that patent? They are only upheld for 15-20 years, so at some point in the future everyone can go hog wild with Neo10 drivers on everything. Could be good fun.
Kristy Digital owns the patent rights on those right now, and I am pretty sure that PS Audio is having to purchase their Neo 10's from Parts Express.
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I’m not sure these make sense for my room but I still would love a pair. Maybe a couple of my 4 daughters will want small weddings…. Or maybe I could roll this into a wedding budget as Reception Related expenses.
Get the DJ to require them and have the DJ gift them to you after?
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Kristy Digital owns the patent rights on those right now, and I am pretty sure that PS Audio is having to purchase their Neo 10's from Parts Express.
Danny,
It's been a couple of years now. Are you any closer to getting your own version of the 10" perfected?
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Danny,
It's been a couple of years now. Are you any closer to getting your own version of the 10" perfected?
Nothing has changed on that front, sadly.
Radian is working on their own version, but we haven't heard any updates from them in quite some time though.
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Took a road trip to Kelowna, BC this past weekend to visit Jay (@captainhemo) and Don (@Endo2112) and pick up the Line Force cabinets they made for me.
I had a great time with nice company, great tunes, some delicious BBQ chicken wings and beef brisket tacos, along with some excellent Pinot that I brought up from OR.
I've been waiting for these cabinets for about two years, so I didn't want to chance them getting damaged by UPS. These are made from composite instead of the normal MDF, so supply chain issues seriously got in the way. But they turned out really nice and I'm looking forward to getting them built.
I heard the Super Sevens while I was there, along with a pair of small monitors that Jay and Don are working on. The Super Sevens (which use the same drivers as the Line Force) sounded fabulous so I'm really looking forward to hearing how these sound. In the meantime, here's some eye candy.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245884)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245885)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245886)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245887)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245887)
That's some beautiful work. Congrats! :thumb:
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I am very rarely jealous. But.... I'm jealous. Beautiful work.
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Was a pleasure having you up Jay and the wine was fantastic !
I'm just glad you finally have them, as you mentioned, it has been a struggle getting these things done with so many shortages over the past couple of years.
And, just heads up for the other couple customers waiting on these, another pair were just picked up and is on it's way, we'll be boxing up last pair and getting them out as well.
jay
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Thanks guys. Yeah they really came out nice. Jay and Don do nice work!
Now to get them built. I just ordered a bunch of screws from McMaster to install the drivers. I'm not sure what size will be best, so I ordered #2, #4, and #6 screws. I think I'll end up using #2 for the NEO3s and #6 for the NEO10s.
I've decided to wire them with Neotech UP-OCC solid-core copper in teflon.
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Those are beautiful and I am sure they will sound even better.
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Composite? Tell us more.
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@Captainhemo can reply with the specific material. He told me it was a polycarbonate composite.
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If I could find 4 more Neo 10s I would seriously consider repurposing my Super 7 drivers toward a line force. Its just such a bummer that these drivers are not readily available anymore.
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If I could find 4 more Neo 10s I would seriously consider repurposing my Super 7 drivers toward a line force. Its just such a bummer that these drivers are not readily available anymore.
Yes, agreed. But the Super Seven is a damn nice sounding speaker on its own, and takes up a lot less room than the Line Force with OB subs.
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If I could find 4 more Neo 10s I would seriously consider repurposing my Super 7 drivers toward a line force. Its just such a bummer that these drivers are not readily available anymore.
Do it!!! We'll help you find 4 more Neo 10's. Someone on this planet has two pairs sitting in their closet collecting dust.
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@Captainhemo can reply with the specific material. He told me it was a polycarbonate composite.
It's actually a Poly - Urathane composite, slightly denser than high quality MDF. It is very stable and basically water resistant, great edge integrity and when it is glued, it is actually fused so panels basically become one... no seams to show up down the road.
Unfortuanately, it is not cheap nor is the machining... each of those bases starts from a 24" x 24" x 6" solid block ... then spends approx 24 hrs on a 5 axis machine.
Do a search for " Updated Line Force" , a thread from when we first re-designed these speaker cabinets and searched for a composite that suited what we were after.
We put a ton of attention and detail into these, no edges left unfinished, everything finished with a nice tight 1/8" radius aside from verticle edges on front baffle which are .5".
Anyway, lots of info in that other thread
jay
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The Crossover is going to be a very tight fit to get it on the crossover board. I think I have room to add some zip-ties for the big caps. The rest I'll probably have to use some other way to hold them in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245920)
The resistors and bypass caps are tucked under/behind the big caps so you can't see them, but I'm using 0.01uF Dueland tinned copper foil bypass caps for the big caps. I will probably also add a 0.1uF Miflex cap to bypass the Erse cap I'm using in the notch filter.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245884)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245885)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245886)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245887)
That is some incredible work!
Hope that you (and others) can eventually find correct or suitable drivers to complete them.
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That is some incredible work!
Hope that you (and others) can eventually find correct or suitable drivers to complete them.
Yes, Don and Jay do nice work. Fortunately, I already have all the drivers. I bought them a couple years ago when Parts Express still had the NEO10 sporadically available.
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Jay
Instead of drilling the boards and using tie wraps, I'd try using either clear silicon or even hot glue.... it would suck if drilling those boards ended up in paint chipping :(
Just an idea
jay
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I want to have something strongly mounted to the board, so I am using zip ties on the big caps. I drilled the holes under the caps so you can't see them from the top. This stuff drills very cleanly. No chipping at all.
I had planned to use non-acidic rubber cement, but hot glue is a good idea. I will probably try that on the other parts.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245922)
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I want to have something strongly mounted to the board, so I am using zip ties on the big caps. I drilled the holes under the caps so you can't see them from the top. This stuff drills very cleanly. No chipping at all.
I had planned to use non-acidic rubber cement, but hot glue is a good idea. I will probably try that on the other parts.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245922)
You need semi-trailer ratcheting tie-down straps to keep monsters lashed down. :D
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Jaytor - huge envy on this. Super excited to hear how this goes.
As a tangent, the giant caps trigger a weird thought for me for folks who do more crossovers and electronics: why do we not worry about caps next to the inductors? Caps, particularly ones like these big ones, are also giant windings of a conductor. Will those giant caps really not pick up any current from the inductor's fields?
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Jaytor - huge envy on this. Super excited to hear how this goes.
Me too. :icon_lol:
As a tangent, the giant caps trigger a weird thought for me for folks who do more crossovers and electronics: why do we not worry about caps next to the inductors? Caps, particularly ones like these big ones, are also giant windings of a conductor. Will those giant caps really not pick up any current from the inductor's fields?
The caps do have giant windings, but each winding is only connected at one place, so there isn't much opportunity to induce current. The caps will pick up a tiny bit of EMI (you can connect a scope probe across the cap leads), but it is very small. From an EMI perspective, it would probably be better to spread things out, but keeping the leads short will often have a bigger effect (at least in my experience).
Progress is being made. 88 screws and my finger tips are raw. The other speaker will have to wait a day or two. I ended up using #4 machine screws for the NEO3s and #6 machine screws for the NEO10s. Both 1/2" in length.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245941)
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Sweet!
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Jay - Those look amazing. I was lucky to hear Jay's Oticas and was blown away by both the speakers, hospitality and his system, needless to say I built out some myself with the subs and they are incredible. Looking forward to seeing these finished and hearing your reaction to them. I can second that Jay and Don due outstanding work on their flat packs, as well as amazing customer service! Love to see more of their offerings on the web sight.
Steve
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The drivers are bringing the color scheme all together in a big way. They look fantastic.
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Gorgeous!
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I picked up a nasty respiratory virus on my trip back from BC. Fortunately, Jay, Don and company were spared, so probably picked it up on the way back home. It's slowed me down a bit on getting the speakers assembled. I've now got all the drivers installed, the left crossover is assembled, and the right is about 3/4s done. The Neotech wire I ordered from SonicCraft was supposed to arrive yesterday, but seems to be in the wind somewhere in the USPS system.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246126)
Each of the copper caps is bypassed with a 0.01uF Dueland tinned copper foil bypass cap. The large Erse film cap used in the notch filter is bypassed with a 0.1uF Miflex. Each crossover weighs 22 lbs. :icon_lol:
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Each crossover weighs 22 lbs. :icon_lol:
This is the greatest sentence ever written on Audiocircle. I think I'm gonna cry...
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This is the greatest sentence ever written on Audiocircle. I think I'm gonna cry...
:lol:
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@bfs21 - tried to respond to your PM but your inbox is full.
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Each of those caps is easily 2x the size of the ones in my NX-Studios, and in total they weigh 8lbs each. So I completely believe that yours weigh 22lbs a piece.
That said, knowing how good my Miflex crossovers sound, I'm really excited to hear your thoughts once they're finally up and playing and you have some time on them.
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We all know Jaytor carried that crossover to the bathroom scale to weight that thing!...lol
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We all know Jaytor carried that crossover to the bathroom scale to weight that thing!...lol
Hah…close. Brought the bathroom scale to the crossover. :lol:
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We all know Jaytor carried that crossover to the bathroom scale to weight that thing!...lol
That's exactly what I did with mine :p
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Making progress. The left speaker is done and has been playing for a couple of days.
I made the mistake of cutting and bending the wires the connect the NEO3s without realizing that the right channel wiring will be reversed. I don't want to unbend the wires and rebend them in the new position, since I paid for "continuous crystal" copper wire and bending the wire once is bad enough. So I am about 3ft short on the 18ga wire for the NEO3s for the second speaker. I've got more wire on order from SonicCraft which should arrive on Tuesday. Everything else is done and ready to go on the right channel speaker.
I haven't made any attempt to set up the speakers and subs, and, of course, they have hardly any break-in, but the sound from the first speaker is VERY promising. Incredibly clear with nice tonal balance. I'm looking forward to hearing what the stereo pain will do.
These big caps are going to take a few hundred hours to fully break in, but I'm amazed how good they sound fresh. I have heard that the sound gets worse before it gets better though - we shall see.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246304)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246305)
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Holy hell that crossover! I don’t think that speaker will sound bad ever.
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Damn, I thought my Super 7 crossover was over the top. I officially have capacitor envy.
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Damn, I thought my Super 7 crossover was over the top. I officially have capacitor envy.
I got a good deal on the Miflex KPCU-2s, but I think in hind-sight that I would have been better off with the 250V KPCU-3 caps which are a fair amount smaller. I've heard that the larger caps can sound a bit better, but it certainly would have been easier to build the crossover with smaller caps.
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Couple of wiring questions.
Solid or stranded ?
Spades or solder ?
TIA
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Couple of wiring questions.
Solid or stranded ?
Spades or solder ?
TIA
I used Neotech UP-OCC solid core copper in Teflon. 18ga for NEO3, 16ga for NEO10. Soldered to the drivers.
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Holy hell that crossover! I don’t think that speaker will sound bad ever.
When that speaker was being put together with alligator jumpers and Gen I Sonicaps, basic coils, and basic resistors, it was the best thing I'd ever heard... and not by a little. Take that up another notch... well, it's just out of my class.
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Well, I got impatient and decided to wire the last few NEO3s together with the extra 16ga wire I had left. But when I went to test the right speaker, I discovered two of the NEO3s were not working (open circuit). It could have been my fault - these drivers are very sensitive to overheating the terminals.
I ordered four more drivers so I could have a couple of spares. In the mean time, I've soldered a 4 ohm resistor across each of the two bad drivers so that the rest of the drivers in the group would operate correctly. So I at least I have tunes and can start the excruciatingly long burn-in process.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246310)
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First off, that's a freaking beautiful setup.
Second, you have 1 hour of burn in down, only 499 more to go!
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Knowing how good my NX Studios sound with the Miflex cap in the tweeter circuit, using such a massive, I can only imagine how good those will sound as you continue to put time on them.
Looking forward to hearing more in the coming weeks!
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First off, that's a freaking beautiful setup.
Yeah, that's magazine cover quality right there.
Just curious -- is it better to place the subs inside or outside the speakers? Or does it matter?
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Those look great including the venue. Congrats.
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Thanks for all the nice comments.
Just curious -- is it better to place the subs inside or outside the speakers? Or does it matter?
I found either worked ok with my NX-Oticas. Inside the speakers excited the room modes slightly less, but I preferred the more open look between the speakers. But since the Line Forces require the subs to play quite a bit higher (up to about 180hz), I figured it would be better to get them further from the side walls.
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... the Line Forces require the subs to play quite a bit higher (up to about 180hz), I figured it would be better to get them further from the side walls.
It also gets the Sub/Neo driver center-2-centers closer for better off axis XO region response.
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It also gets the sub/bass driver center-2-centers closer for better off axis XO region response.
Good point.
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Gorgeous looking speakers, Jay! Congrats! You really went full out as far as crossover components are concerned :thumb:
Mine are the same color but with matching bases and crossover boards. They are shipping today so Danny should normally get them relatively soon.
Cheers,
David
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Gorgeous looking speakers, Jay! Congrats! You really went full out as far as crossover components are concerned :thumb:
Mine are the same color but with matching bases and crossover boards. They are shipping today so Danny should normally get them relatively soon.
Cheers,
David
Good luck with yours David. The paint came out really nice. Hopefully, Danny can do his crossover magic with the GRS-10 drivers. It would be great if these speakers could become readily available. There is certainly something special about them.
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Gorgeous looking speakers, Jay! Congrats! You really went full out as far as crossover components are concerned :thumb:
Mine are the same color but with matching bases and crossover boards. They are shipping today so Danny should normally get them relatively soon.
Cheers,
David
David, yours look just as good with the Ceramic Metallic bases/b/o boards. And yes, they are scheduled for pick up today and delivery to GR Reserch Thursday... we'll see if that holds up.
Jay, they ae gorgeous , looks great all finished up. Hope that wire and tweeters arrive soon
Now we need to set you up with some 6 stacks :)
Enjoy man
jay
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The speakers are "breaking-in" very nicely. I probably have about 150 hours on them at this point. It's hard for me to imagine how good they will sound if they continue to improve since they sound great right now.
I decided to dress up the wiring a bit. I found some red spiral wrap on ebay.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246924)
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Those are probably the best speakers in the world.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246928)
Those are seriously drool worthy. And that double dose of copper all nonchalant on the crossover is just out of control. #lifegoals
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246924)
Fantastic project, incredible execution. Curious if you are soldering the speaker wire to the driver terminals, or using push on connectors?
Kenreau
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Fantastic project, incredible execution. Curious if you are soldering the speaker wire to the driver terminals, or using push on connectors?
Kenreau
Thanks. I soldered the wires to the drivers using WBT Silver solder. I tried to be very careful to crimp the wires to the terminals, and then heat up the bare wire as quickly as possible. I have a pretty good quality soldering pencil which holds its heat well.
That said, two of the NEO3s did not work when I finished, and it's possible that I damaged them from overheating. But I think a soldered connection provides a much better connection than the push-on connectors.
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The Crossover is going to be a very tight fit to get it on the crossover board. I think I have room to add some zip-ties for the big caps. The rest I'll probably have to use some other way to hold them in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245920)
The resistors and bypass caps are tucked under/behind the big caps so you can't see them, but I'm using 0.01uF Dueland tinned copper foil bypass caps for the big caps. I will probably also add a 0.1uF Miflex cap to bypass the Erse cap I'm using in the notch filter.
Hi I am looking at building a pair of these with non BG components. I've done a simulation of the crossover and come up with very different parts to yourself. How did you come up with your Xover design?
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Hi I am looking at building a pair of these with non BG components. I've done a simulation of the crossover and come up with very different parts to yourself. How did you come up with your Xover design?
Danny originally designed the crossovers for them using BG Neo 10s and out GR Neo3 in this cabinet using a microphone in front of the speaker.
We will be working on a version for a customer soon using the GRS branded Neo10 clones, but they will require a very different crossover to the original design, due to the differences in their overall response. The GRS units also have some limitations that need to be dealt with that the older BG units didn't suffer from.
We're also looking using the new Radian LM10 in the future, but it will require a re-design of the cabinet and a new network, and we're not ready for that just yet.
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Mine are breaking in very nicely. They sounded quite good on day one on well recorded songs, but this past week I've noticed that almost everything is sounding really nice. I think I have about 300 hours on them at this point.
I'm a happy camper :D. Well worth the wait and the expense.
These speakers really deliver the goods. I hope Danny is successful replicating this sound quality with the GRS drivers.
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Danny originally designed the crossovers for them using BG Neo 10s and out GR Neo3 in this cabinet using a microphone in front of the speaker.
We will be working on a version for a customer soon using the GRS branded Neo10 clones, but they will require a very different crossover to the original design, due to the differences in their overall response. The GRS units also have some limitations that need to be dealt with that the older BG units didn't suffer from.
We're also looking using the new Radian LM10 in the future, but it will require a re-design of the cabinet and a new network, and we're not ready for that just yet.
Does this mean you have a new/clone Neo 10 model that is Promising? :green:
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Does this mean you have a new/clone Neo 10 model that is Promising? :green:
GRS is a driver maker. https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-PT5010-8-10-Planar-Mid-Tweeter-8-Ohm-272-130?quantity=1&srsltid=AeTuncpx0Jg_qo8FI1hBJ5Afw_Lg7O-4H0IXO6qww1Z7J0msu2kGBTeK8Sg
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Does this mean you have a new/clone Neo 10 model that is Promising? :green:
Not our own, but the Radian LM10 looks to be a promising option for a future revision
https://radianaudio.com/products/lm10n-wide-band-planar-ribbon-transducer
The GRS/Sounderlink model, while externally identical, has internal limitations that make it prone to being over driven. It doesn't have corrugated edges like the BG units did, so it doesn't handle lower frequencies as well, and also contributes to the wildly different response from the BG units.
The GRS drivers will most likely require a high-pass filter to prevent them from being damaged over time.
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Overall, I'm thrilled with these speakers. I have 300-350 hours on them at this point, and they are sounding excellent. Detailed, smooth, effortless dynamics, wide and deep soundstage, etc.
I haven't done a lot of placement tweaking yet, but one thing I am not completely satisfied with at this point is the sweet spot width. Compared to the NX-Oticas, the sweet spot seems to be considerably narrower. If I move more than a foot or so from center position, it sounds like I'm only hearing the closer speaker.
Is this inherent to this speaker design, line arrays in general, or is it just a matter of getting the speaker placement optimized? If the latter, any recommendations on where to start.
I moved the speakers a few inches closer together today and this improved the sharpness of the imaging a fair amount but didn't really change the sweet spot much.
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How are they facing into the room, straight on, a little toe in, a lot of toe in? The straighter they are, the wider the sweet spot will be up to the point that the center image stops locking in. This is assuming the track you are using for setup has a solid center image like the old standby, Ballad of a Runaway Horse.
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Thanks Mike. My toe-in isn't extreme, but I'll play around with that a bit.
Are you referring to the Jenifer Warne's version of Ballad of a Runaway Horse?
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Yes, that's the one. You want the least amount of toe in you can get and still have her voice tight and dead center. Her voice should also sound like it is coming from her mouth if she were standing between the speakers. Most designs may need to adjust tilt to get the height right. I don't know if that is an issue with a line source or not.
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Thanks Mike. My toe-in isn't extreme, but I'll play around with that a bit.
Are you referring to the Jenifer Warne's version of Ballad of a Runaway Horse?
If you want a good front sound stage demo track, try the "Djembe Walk" track from the Stockfisch AYA Audio Check disk. Also good to test for the timbre of the djembe.
The image should walk from right to the left without appearing to come forwards or backwards.
The tracks from the "Percussion-Ensemble" are also good test tracks for front to back and left to right as well as the chimes testing your high frequency position, clarity and decay.
https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/aya-authentic-audio-check-2011-sacd/ (https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/aya-authentic-audio-check-2011-sacd/)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41z7JmQeDdL.jpg)
(https://c.btwstorage.info/store-42292/product/d424e9c1-5e36-928d-2dd7-60d58a8a1f2e.jpg)
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Let me the first here to beg for a audition. I can dust and clean, wash windows and vacuum as long as I can hear the music.
I would love Line Force Experiance. I can offer some back yard Oregon Pino since you were out a few bottles picking 5hese up.
I'm just few miles south and was asked to leave work 8 years ago. Still waiting their call to my old number.
Alan
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Let me the first here to beg for a audition. I can dust and clean, wash windows and vacuum as long as I can hear the music.
I would love Line Force Experiance. I can offer some back yard Oregon Pino since you were out a few bottles picking 5hese up.
I'm just few miles south and was asked to leave work 8 years ago. Still waiting their call to my old number.
Alan
Hi Alan - I'm happy to demo my system. Send me a PM and we can set something up.
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It would be an understatement to say those Pino's were outstanding!! Some of the best wines i've ever had, period!! and I have friends in the industry.
Don
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FYI
https://audioxpress.com/news/radian-audio-lm10-introduces-wide-band-planar-ribbon-transducer-at-ces-2023
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That's definitely a serious contender to replace the BG10 in a future revision. I've linked to them prior. Radian is also updating their other drivers for better performance as well, and the new LT6 seems to be a promising as a replacement for each pair of Neo 3s.
They measure better than the GRS versions from what we've seen, and don't have the same power limitations either.
But we don't have any immediate plans to design a new model around them.
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Show the measurements??
Don
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There was some measurements on the product datasheet, but I don't see the download for them, at least not on my phone.
https://radianaudio.com/products/lm10n-wide-band-planar-ribbon-transducer
We haven't gotten one in for testing in house, but they look promising from what we've seen so far.
Edit: I think Radian is still in the process of updating their product pages but I found the original PDF elsewhere:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0111/0324/0254/files/LM10n-datasheet-v2.pdf?v=1666125534
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If we do the Radian LM10 we're either going stick to the 6mids or use 8 of them for taller version similar to the NX-Treme/LS9 in height.
And well likely use 8 or 9 LT6s in the standard, and 12 in the taller version.
Heres a rough idea of the design well be shooting for with the standard height version:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249406&size=large)
The drivers will likely be rear-mounted into a thick baffle to give the drivers a litte bit of a waveguide and stiffen the cabinet.
If we go either route, we will need to have custom LM10& LT6s made in order to match the impedance, & output and send some samples off to Jay & Don to allow them design the cabinet for the new drivers.
We're still spitballing the ideas, so any suggestions are currently welcome.
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The current Line Force is a nice height aesthetically and does well in a room with average height ceilings. My listening room as 7'9" ceilings and they don't feel overwhelming. I think a taller version would be too much without being in a room with taller ceilings.
That said, there is a distinct difference in the way they sound when standing vs sitting. They don't sound bad when standing, but are clearly better when sitting. So for folks that want a speaker that still sounds outstanding for parties, etc., a taller version might be a bit better.
But I'm very happy with the size of mine and would pick them over a taller version if I had a choice.
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I like that you are at least "spitballing" this. For me the standard height would work.
Wayne in Oregon
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Hobbs,
Why are custom drivers needed if you don’t mind me asking?
LT2 or 6LT? What’s a better match with the LT10? 3500hz crossover point?
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Hobbs,
Why are custom drivers needed if you don’t mind me asking?
LT2 or 6LT? What’s a better match with the LT10? 3500hz crossover point?
To better match impedance and output levels between the drivers.
For something like the old Super Mini, the better option would be the LT2 or LT3. The LT6 would be too tall for that application.
Ideally we like to crossover drivers as low as possible, typically 1500-2000Hz whenever possible. It allows for a more consistent off-axis response.
The LT6 is essentially two LT3s in a single chassis, so we can get away with using less drivers for similar output, which is ideal for a line-source design.
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To better match impedance and output levels between the drivers.
For something like the old Super Mini, the better option would be the LT2 or LT3. The LT6 would be too tall for that application.
Ideally we like to crossover drivers as low as possible, typically 1500-2000Hz whenever possible. It allows for a more consistent off-axis response.
The LT6 is essentially two LT3s in a single chassis, so we can get away with using less drivers for similar output, which is ideal for a line-source design.
LT6 doesn’t seem to have very good off-axis response compared to LT3 when looking at the charts. Also the new LT10 driver can keep its composure all the way to 4000Hz which was not possible with the old BG Neo10. In any case, it seems possible to cross it over considerably higher without hurting the heart of the midrange 🤷♂️
Thanks for answering my questions.
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Yes the Radian 10 has amazing off axis dispersion up till 4K. Which wasn’t the case for the obsolete neo10. Which completely makes the case for crossing over below 3000hz only a pursuit to drastically increase distort in the tweeter.
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Keep in mind that the two driver arrays have to sit side by side, so raising the crossover frequency will also result in more interference peaks and dips as the listener moves side to side.
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Keep in mind that the two driver arrays have to sit side by side, so raising the crossover frequency will also result in more interference peaks and dips as the listener moves side to side.
The same layout compromise exists for both drivers in this design. Regardless of where the crossover frequency is set. The new LT10 is amazing off axis up till 4K. And the lower you cross the tweeter over, the lower the power handling, maximum SPL, and higher the distortion. The old Neo10 was garbage above 1500k. Which is why it was better suited for the lower crossover point. Which still means much higher tweeter distortion. The higher distortion was a design compromise needed with the obsolete Neo10. But thankfully the designer of both drivers, Igor, learned a few things over the years, and his latest drivers no longer need to deal with this compromise.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249434)
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Yes the Radian 10 has amazing off axis dispersion up till 4K. Which wasn’t the case for the obsolete neo10. Which completely makes the case for crossing over below 3000hz only a pursuit to drastically increase distort in the tweeter.
Distortion would only really be an issue with a single tweeter at high output. With many drivers wired in series-parallel groupings, each tweeter one is only moving a fraction of the distance a single tweeter would at the same output, greatly reducing distortion even at high output levels.
As mentioned above, a crossover at 3000-4000Hz would lead to a very narrow listening window. The lower the crossover point, the better the off-axis response and the wider the sweet spot.
and using the LT6 in an open-backed configuration will also unload the diaphragm, allowing it to play lower than the stock measurements allow.
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As mentioned above, a crossover at 3000-4000Hz would lead to a very narrow listening window. The lower the crossover point, the better the off-axis response and the wider the sweet spot.
That might be the case for some drivers. But it isn’t the case for the LT10 until 4K. The off axis is actually better between 2-4K than it is at 1000-1500hz.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249438)
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Distortion with these drivers are a non-issue. They have little to no rise at Fs and handle tons of power while still maintaining a linear response.
We use our single GR Neo 3 crossed down in the 1,400 to 1,500Hz range, with a little help from a wave guide, with no issues.
Running a line of these tweeters, including the new Radian models, completely takes distortion out of consideration. They can be crossed as low as 800 or 900Hz in many cases. Even at 100db each driver will see less than 1 watt each.
Another important factor to consider is acoustic center spacing. This is going to be about 4.5" apart in a horizontal plane. That is a wavelength of about 3kHz. So the crossover point has to be (by rule of thumb) below 3kHz to avoid any significant comb filtering in the horizontal plane. With a crossover near 1kHz (piece of cake) then you can move horizontally in either direction without the change in time arrival having any real effect on the response.
If the crossover were pushed up into the 4khz region then any movement left or right would create enough of a phase rotation to start causing some comb filtering. So anything beyond 20 degrees or so would result is significant holes in the response to the tune of up to 15db.
So the lower crossover points are a MUST.
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No, the drivers will stay in phase over a larger window the lower the crossover point is, and the further off-axis you have to move before the drivers begin to cancel out.
It's not just the LM10/Neo10 you have to be concerned with, it's really the crossover relation to the line of mids to the line of tweeters and mids that matters here.
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A unique solution to the comb filtering issue would be to mount LT2 tweeters in the center of each LT10 with a special bracket, and time align them with DSP. This way the acoustic centres would be 0” apart. The baffle could be much skinnier as well.
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The planar coaxial. Looks like someone thought of that already:
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php-90.html?id=bms_4508nd
https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxial-ribbon/products/6crn38lt6-line-array-driver
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Great example here of the dispersion pattern possible when the acoustic centres of the drivers are aligned.
https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/qr24/
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249448)
This design style results in a perfectly even sound from all positions in the room. Massively huge sweet spot.
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A unique solution to the comb filtering issue would be to mount LT2 tweeters in the center of each LT10 with a special bracket, and time align them with DSP. This way the acoustic centres would be 0” apart. The baffle could be much skinnier as well.
That actually doesn't work very well. It really disrupts the response from the surface and edge diffraction.
There is also no way I would produce a speaker of this level with DSP in the signal path.
Mounting then side by side aligns the playing surfaces and gives them great time arrival. So in this regard they are already great.
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Alcons pulled it off pretty good. DSP is required for the best sound these days. Just can’t use crappy DSP.
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Great example here of the dispersion pattern possible when the acoustic centres of the drivers are aligned.
https://www.alconsaudio.com/product/qr24/
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249448)
This design style results in a perfectly even sound from all positions in the room. Massively huge sweet spot.
I've heard those. Well, they were capable of playing loud. That was about it.
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So do you think that dispersion pattern is undesirable in a speaker? That’s an active speaker with mediocre electronics. So the sound quality is likely limited by the electronics.
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Alcons pulled it off pretty good. DSP is required for the best sound these days. Just can’t use crappy DSP.
The best playback systems are not digital. Vinyl, as a playback medium, is by far still the king when it comes to best sound, and no one is going to digitized their vinyl.
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Well that may be the opinion of 0.00001% of the population. And everyone is open to have their own opinion.
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So do you think that dispersion pattern is undesirable in a speaker? That’s an active speaker with mediocre electronics. So the sound quality is likely limited by the electronics.
We always look at dispersion in both horizontal and vertical planes with everything we work on. An even and consistent response in all directions is important to maintain an even overall room response.
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We always look at dispersion in both horizontal and vertical planes with everything we work on. An even and consistent response in all directions is important to maintain an even overall room response.
Do you have the same style of polar plot I shared from the Alcons for the Line Forces?
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Well that may be the opinion of 0.00001% of the population. And everyone is open to have their own opinion.
My digital playback system is on the the best I've ever heard. It sounds very musical and very analog sounding compared to even some of the most favored digital playback systems. It is still a long way from the best vinyl systems.
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Do you have the same plot I shared from the Alcons for the Line Forces?
That isn't an industry standard measurement. It is an illustration.
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That isn't an industry standard measurement. It is an illustration.
Ok then any polar plots.
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I think if we were to study the polar plots we would discover why Jaytor is experiencing a tiny sweet spot with his line forces.
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Ok then any polar plots.
I look at and measure them in both directions. Because the center to center spacing is so small and the crossover point is so low then there is only a difference in the off axis in the top end as the tweeter (like all tweeters) drops out in the off axis. There is little to no change from the time alignment of the drivers.
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I think if we were to study the polar plots we would discover why Jaytor is experiencing a tiny sweet spot with his line forces.
The change he is referring to is the change vertically. The line is only five feet long. So in order to maintain a consistent and accurate sound then the listener needs to stay near the center of the line.
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I look at and measure them in both directions. Because the center to center spacing is so small and the crossover point is so low then there is only a difference in the off axis in the top end as the tweeter (like all tweeters) drops out in the off axis. There is little to no change from the time alignment of the drivers.
What’s wrong with measuring the polar response and sharing the results? It’s become industry standard to do that these days. Especially with expensive speakers. Sure I agree it’s possible to have a great polar response and still bad sound. But a great speaker, with great drivers, great crossover design and well constructed cabinets will only sound better all over the room if the polar response is stellar.
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The change he is referring to is the change vertically. The line is only five feet long. So in order to maintain a consistent and accurate sound then the listener needs to stay near the center of the line.
This is what I read:
“ I haven't done a lot of placement tweaking yet, but one thing I am not completely satisfied with at this point is the sweet spot width. Compared to the NX-Oticas, the sweet spot seems to be considerably narrower. If I move more than a foot or so from center position, it sounds like I'm only hearing the closer speaker.”
Sounds like lobing issues to me.
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Another important factor to consider is acoustic center spacing. This is going to be about 4.5" apart in a horizontal plane. That is a wavelength of about 3kHz. So the crossover point has to be (by rule of thumb) below 3kHz to avoid any significant comb filtering in the horizontal plane. With a crossover near 1kHz (piece of cake) then you can move horizontally in either direction without the change in time arrival having any real effect on the response.
If the crossover were pushed up into the 4khz region then any movement left or right would create enough of a phase rotation to start causing some comb filtering. So anything beyond 20 degrees or so would result is significant holes in the response to the tune of up to 15db.
So the lower crossover points are a MUST.
Thank you for chiming in, Danny.
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This is what I read:
“ I haven't done a lot of placement tweaking yet, but one thing I am not completely satisfied with at this point is the sweet spot width. Compared to the NX-Oticas, the sweet spot seems to be considerably narrower. If I move more than a foot or so from center position, it sounds like I'm only hearing the closer speaker.”
Sounds like lobing issues to me.
Jaytor,
Would you care to comment on your observations regarding the size of the sweet spot with the Line Forces vs your NX-Oticas now that your big caps are properly broken in? Is it still an issue you feel the need to work on?
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The change he is referring to is the change vertically. The line is only five feet long. So in order to maintain a consistent and accurate sound then the listener needs to stay near the center of the line.
Danny,
I was under the impression that the response would be similar pretty much along the full length of the line array considering we are only getting the output equivalent to a single Neo10 and Neo3 at any position.
But then again I can’t imagine they are unlistenable when standing up either… and most likely Jaytor’s guests won’t even notice?
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Putting one driver directly in front of the other driver for anything other than bass is a really bad idea, on the face of it. How is that not blindingly obvious to people?
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This is what I read:
“ I haven't done a lot of placement tweaking yet, but one thing I am not completely satisfied with at this point is the sweet spot width. Compared to the NX-Oticas, the sweet spot seems to be considerably narrower. If I move more than a foot or so from center position, it sounds like I'm only hearing the closer speaker.”
Sounds like lobing issues to me.
Having designed both of those speakers I can tell you it is not a lobbing issue.
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What’s wrong with measuring the polar response and sharing the results? It’s become industry standard to do that these days. Especially with expensive speakers. Sure I agree it’s possible to have a great polar response and still bad sound. But a great speaker, with great drivers, great crossover design and well constructed cabinets will only sound better all over the room if the polar response is stellar.
I don't have a problem with sharing the results.
In this case I didn't save them as I didn't offer these as a kit. I just looked at them and was very happy with them. Kept on going...
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Danny,
I was under the impression that the response would be similar pretty much along the full length of the line array considering we are only getting the output equivalent to a single Neo10 and Neo3 at any position.
But then again I can’t imagine they are unlistenable when standing up either… and most likely Jaytor’s guests won’t even notice?
With any line source the sound is going to change as your ear nears either end of the line.
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Putting one driver directly in front of the other driver for anything other than bass is a really bad idea, on the face of it. How is that not blindingly obvious to people?
Better give Igor a shout and tell him that.
https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxial-ribbon/products/6crn38lt6-line-array-driver
Along with Alcons and many others.
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I don't have a problem with sharing the results.
In this case I didn't save them as I didn't offer these as a kit. I just looked at them and was very happy with them. Kept on going...
If you happen to tune up anymore line forces it would be cool to see the results.
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Better give Igor a shout and tell him that.
https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxial-ribbon/products/6crn38lt6-line-array-driver
Along with Alcons and many others.
Just proves that even smart people can have dumb ideas.
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Just proves that even smart people can have dumb ideas.
Show me the flaws in this polar plot:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249453)
These guys have sold tens of millions of $ of these speakers. I guess being dumb pays off.
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Show me the flaws in this polar plot:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249453)
These guys have sold tens of millions of $ of these speakers. I guess being dumb pays off.
That isn't a real measurement. That is an illustration.
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That isn't a real measurement. That is an illustration.
You can plot polars out that way with a Klippel.
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FYI, Igor and Pablo (owner of the company that makes all of BG and Radian drivers) at my house.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249454)
After nearly an hour of listening Igor said that my system (with Line Forces) was the best sounding system that he has heard in 30 years of being in the industry.
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I actually have some of Igor’s round ribbon coaxials here and they’re killer!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249459)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249460)
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The dispersion pattern narrows exponentially starting at ~300Hz, and by the time it reaches 1Hkz where it only has decent output to 20 degrees, by 30 degrees it drops by ~20dB
and if you move more that 5 degrees off axis it tanks in output above 4KHz.
A speaker with such a rapidly narrowing polar plot will have an incredibly small sweet spot. it has to be pointed directly at the listener. anyone else even 5 degrees off-axis loses 80% of the treble.
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You can plot polars out that way with a Klippel.
If you want to really see what a speaker is doing off axis then look at an actual on axis response measure. Then move off axis and take another one. Overlay the lines and repeat...
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I actually have some of Igor’s round ribbon coaxials here and they’re killer!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249459)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249460)
Yes, Igor and I have talked about those.
For an open baffle application try taking the backs off of them and they will really open up.
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If you want to really see what a speaker is doing off axis then look at an actual on axis response measure. Then move off axis and take another one. Overlay the lines and repeat...
Yeah but to quickly demonstrate the performance to potential buyers the polar plot works good. There’s a reason it exists.
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The only thing I don't like about those drivers is that the time arrival of the tweeter is so far behind the woofer.
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Yes, Igor and I have talked about those.
For an open baffle application try taking the backs off of them and they will really open up.
One of them arrived damaged with the binding posts broken off the tweeter. So I plan on using a pair as midwoofers in a 2 way. But the tweeters are very good. And can play very loud with no fatigue.
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Yeah but to quickly demonstrate the performance to potential buyers the polar plot works good. There’s a reason it exists.
Potential buyers can't make heads of tails out of those colored illustrations. They aren't even useful to me. They don't tell me specifically what they are doing at a given off axis position and frequency.
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The only thing I don't like about those drivers is that the time arrival of the tweeter is so far behind the woofer.
That can easily be solved with SOTA DSP.
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One of them arrived damaged with the binding posts broken off the tweeter. So I plan on using a pair as midwoofers in a 2 way. But the tweeters are very good. And can play very loud with no fatigue.
I agree, they are excellent.
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That can easily be solved with SOTA DSP.
But that is solving one problem and creating another.
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Potential buyers can't make heads of tails out of those colored illustrations. They aren't even useful to me. They don't tell me specifically what they are doing at a given off axis position and frequency.
Tell the folks at ASR that. Unfortunately that’s where the majority of the audiophile traffic is at these days.
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But that is solving one problem and creating another.
Sounds like you have no experience with today’s best DSP systems.
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Having designed both of those speakers I can tell you it is not a lobbing issue.
What has been your experience like regarding the Line Forces and their sweet spot, Danny? Say compared to your NX-Tremes and NX-Oticas? Do you feel like this is something that would need improvement?
As far as time alignment is concerned between the mid array and the tweeters, I would assume that toe in can make a big difference here and that keeping them relatively straight would be preferable?
What do you think is the issue here and why isn’t Jaytor (or wasn’t) completely satisfied with them?
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The dispersion pattern narrows exponentially starting at ~300Hz, and by the time it reaches 1Hkz where it only has decent output to 20 degrees, by 30 degrees it drops by ~20dB
and if you move more that 5 degrees off axis it tanks in output above 4KHz.
A speaker with such a rapidly narrowing polar plot will have an incredibly small sweet spot. it has to be pointed directly at the listener. anyone else even 5 degrees off-axis loses 80% of the treble.
This tells a bit different of a story:
https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=310
More info here:
https://www.tpimagazine.com/alcons-extend-qr24-coverage/
“The QR24 remains a unique tool in the sound designers toolbox. We always get surprised looks when we demonstrate the unique razor-sharp edged vertical dispersion or the intelligibility at distances in excess of 100 metres with only 2 QR24 on a tripod stand.”
We also need to keep in mind that these speakers can play up to 140dB each. The reason I’ve been using them as an example is to show that aligning the acoustic centres in line array speakers has benefits.
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I'm curious, Low Distortion, have you actually heard the Line Force speakers? All 25 of your post are in this thread, so I'm wondering if you actually have any knowledge about what they sound like. You are also listed as an "Industry Participant". With what company are you affiliated?
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I'm curious, Low Distortion, have you actually heard the Line Force speakers? All 25 of your post are in this thread, so I'm wondering if you actually have any knowledge about what they sound like.
No not yet. Just stumbled upon this thread due to my interest in the new Radian drivers. And since the line force is an obsolete design (drivers no longer available) I don’t see any harm in brainstorming different implementation ideas with the new Radian drivers.
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Can you share what is your industry affiliation?
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Sounds like you have no experience with today’s best DSP systems.
^Don't do this. You are new to AC, so show us your best attitude. We don't tolerate recreational antagonists here.
Read the Posting guidelines (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=about;area=posting-guidelines#general-posting-guidelines) for this site, which state:
Defamatory remarks
Do not use this site to make defamatory remarks about people or organisations. Apart from potentially causing damage to this site, it's cheap and nasty behavior. If you say something negative, ensure that it is factual and not speculative.
Sorry for the interruption, Danny and members.
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^Don't do this. You are new to AC, so show us your best attitude. We don't tolerate recreational antagonists here.
Read the Posting guidelines (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=about;area=posting-guidelines#general-posting-guidelines) for this site, which state:
Defamatory remarks
Do not use this site to make defamatory remarks about people or organisations. Apart from potentially causing damage to this site, it's cheap and nasty behavior. If you say something negative, ensure that it is factual and not speculative.
Sorry for the interruption, Danny and members.
That was not meant to antagonize. It was meant to perhaps spark a constructive conversation about what’s possible today with DSP.
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Can you share what is your industry affiliation?
I know you guys already went on my website, because my email has my domain name. But to be clear, I don’t sell anything on the retail market. So no competition with GR.
More info here:
https://www.mnsintegration.com/
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That was not meant to antagonize. It was meant to perhaps spark a constructive conversation about what’s possible today with DSP.
Then it was not well stated.
Please consider my advice in your future posts, and please read the Posting guidelines.
Thanks, and welcome to AudioCircle.
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Then it was not well stated.
Please consider my advice in your future posts, and please read the Posting guidelines.
Thanks, and welcome to AudioCircle.
Will do thank you.
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That was not meant to antagonize. It was meant to perhaps spark a constructive conversation about what’s possible today with DSP.
Since Danny has made it clear his design philosophy doesn't include DSP, The Lab circle, https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=20.0 , might be a better place to generate the conversation you are looking for.
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Since Danny has made it clear his design philosophy doesn't include DSP, The Lab circle, https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=20.0 , might be a better place to generate the conversation you are looking for.
There’s no point in starting a conversation about DSP that nobody is interested in. So I suppose there’s probably nothing of value I can add.
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The planar coaxial. Looks like someone thought of that already:
https://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php-90.html?id=bms_4508nd
https://radianaudio.com/collections/coaxial-ribbon/products/6crn38lt6-line-array-driver
PS Audio tried the planar coaxial approach with one of their early prototypes and gave on on this design.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249462)
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PS Audio tried the planar coaxial approach with one of their early prototypes and gave on on this design.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249462)
That’s good to know. They obviously tried that approach because they understood the potential. Might be better off with the BMS 4508nd drivers to make a line source with perfectly aligned acoustic centres, and uniform polar response.
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PS Audio tried the planar coaxial approach with one of their early prototypes and gave on on this design.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249462)
I heard that exact setup, and it was ..... not good.
In fact, I've also run a coaxial system in my own home setup (passive and later fully active). It was meh. Now that I think about it, I've actually heard quite a few coaxial setups over the years and none of them sounded amazing.
With coaxial speakers that had a round woofer and a round tweeter in the middle, the soundstage never left the speakers. With coaxial speakers that had the drivers co-located (ie, the tweeter in front of the midrange) the midrange had this weird ghostly quality to it. Pretty much like if you put a big ass tweeter in front of your mouth, it's going to make your voice sound weird.
In some applications, maybe you can't get away from a coax setup due to space limitations (like a car), but in all other instances, it's best avoided if you want the best sound quality.
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But that being said. That wasn’t a line array either. Perhaps the tweeter could be located between dual LT10’s with no gap between the LT10’s. And the tweeter would barely cover the front of each of the LT10’s. So make an assembly out of 2x LT10’s and a single LT2 with waveguide. And line several of them of vertically. To try to duplicate what BMS has done. But with a much shallower mounting depth.
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Jaytor,
Would you care to comment on your observations regarding the size of the sweet spot with the Line Forces vs your NX-Oticas now that your big caps are properly broken in? Is it still an issue you feel the need to work on?
I have been playing around with speaker position and bit and have been able to significantly improve the sweat spot width. It still sounds best when seated centered between the speakers as every speaker I've owned does, but I can now get a decent stereo image across the width of my couch.
Regarding the change in response while standing, as Danny has mentioned, there is a bit of change in response when your ear height is near the top of the line arrays, but this is the case with any line array. Obviously a taller array would mitigate this, but at the cost of a more visually imposing design. I personally think the existing Line Force design is pretty optimal, particularly in my room which has a moderate height ceiling.
I should make it clear that these speakers sound spectacular when seated. They still sound very good when standing, and it's only because I'm very familiar with the sound that I have noticed the change. No one else that has heard them has even noticed.
I've had a number of experienced audiophiles over to hear my system that have commented that it is among the best (if not THE best) system they have heard. I'm really glad to hear that Danny and company are looking at a new version using the Radian drivers. This speaker concept deserves to be heard by more people.
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If I can come up with an assembly of dual LT10’s and a single LT2 that’s killer, I’ll let Don and Jay know. And we will listen to them over a bottle of fine bourbon. And I’m sure they will share the results.
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We don't want a tweeter in front of the LM10s, and the LT2 is too small for a line source and would be too far away from the next tweeter to be useful in a line array design, comb filtering would be an issue, hence why we're considering the LT6s so we don't need 16 tweeters in a line.
A better idea would be a pair of LM10 in a square arrangement, with an LT2/LT3 between the two, limiting any overlap of the drivers.
Or 2 pairs with the tweeter in between in an MMTMM configuration, as Danny designed with the older Super 7. (On the left)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207794&size=xlarge)
Using a full line of LM10s with a line of LT6s next to it is better suited for our needs. Especially since we will want the LT6s to be open-backed, and placing open-backed LT6s infront of an array of LM10s isn't going to work for us either.
Not to mention the time arrival issues created by putting the tweeter in front of the mids rather than side by side.
DSP would be the only option in that case, but that's not something were interested in pursuing.
There are many options and ways to design a loudspeaker, and what works best depends on the intended application.
We mainly design speakers for home audio, pro-audio/DSP/active speakers scene isn't our thing.
For us, DSP is the last thing that should ever be considered, and even then only for bass from 200Hz down to take care of room issues that can't easily be addressed with room treatment.
Not to mention most home users aren't going to have access to something like a Trinnov style DSP processor, or speakers will fully adjustable digital crossover, like those found in the pro audio market. Even then, a typical studio room is expected to be well-treated, so what DSP work it has to do, is minimal corrections.
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Yeah everyone has their own design philosophies. The benefit with what I do is my clients only want the best period. And aren’t limited by audiophile biases to reach the goal. So that allows me to build the best systems possible.
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I have been playing around with speaker position and bit and have been able to significantly improve the sweat spot width. It still sounds best when seated centered between the speakers as every speaker I've owned does, but I can now get a decent stereo image across the width of my couch.
Regarding the change in response while standing, as Danny has mentioned, there is a bit of change in response when your ear height is near the top of the line arrays, but this is the case with any line array. Obviously a taller array would mitigate this, but at the cost of a more visually imposing design. I personally think the existing Line Force design is pretty optimal, particularly in my room which has a moderate height ceiling.
I should make it clear that these speakers sound spectacular when seated. They still sound very good when standing, and it's only because I'm very familiar with the sound that I have noticed the change. No one else that has heard them has even noticed.
I've had a number of experienced audiophiles over to hear my system that have commented that it is among the best (if not THE best) system they have heard. I'm really glad to hear that Danny and company are looking at a new version using the Radian drivers. This speaker concept deserves to be heard by more people.
I’m super happy for you, Jay! And thank you for sharing!! :dance:
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Sounds like you have no experience with today’s best DSP systems.
Actually, yes I have, and with this very same speaker. Rich Hollis came over with his all digital system and we compared his system with mine in an A/B comparison using matching slopes and filters. His is the only all digital system I can recommend.
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If I can come up with an assembly of dual LT10’s and a single LT2 that’s killer, I’ll let Don and Jay know. And we will listen to them over a bottle of fine bourbon. And I’m sure they will share the results.
If what you have in mind is a line of LM10's crossed to a single tweeter then there is a way to make that work, but the LM10's can't all play the same signal. That will push the acoustic centers too far apart and the vertical cancellation will be horrendous. You'd have to cross the tweeter to the LM10's on either side of it only and let the remaining LM10's cover lower ranges only.
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Actually, yes I have, and with this very same speaker. Rich Hollis came over with his all digital system and we compared his system with mine in an A/B comparison using matching slopes and filters. His is the only all digital system I can recommend.
Many levels beyond that are possible. If you heard what I use, you would never go back to passive.
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If what you have in mind is a line of LM10's crossed to a single tweeter then there is a way to make that work, but the LM10's can't all play the same signal. That will push the acoustic centers too far apart and the vertical cancellation will be horrendous. You'd have to cross the tweeter to the LM10's on either side of it only and let the remaining LM10's cover lower ranges only.
What I have in mind is making an assembly of dual LM10’s and a single LM2 operate as 1 homogenous unit that covers 250-20000hz. Then this assembly could be stacked to create line arrays of any height. Just like the BMS 4508, only with a shallower mounting depth. I make in wall speakers. So it’s desirable to have a shallow mounting depth. And in very large rooms, line sources are desirable. But I’ll only do a line source if I can align the acoustic centres of the drivers playing 250-20000. Much like Wisdom Audio does. Because it’s not possible to make the very best line array if the acoustic centres aren’t aligned. Because in a massive room, you want to achieve a uniform power response across the entire room. So everyone gets a rich, vibrant sound experience no matter where they are.
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Well have you ever heard a dspMusik 2x8 or dspNexus 2x8 DSP XO? If not, then how do you make that conclusion?
It has gotten even better since Danny heard it on the Line Force speakers. The dspNexus 2x8 is to be released before AXPONA 2023.
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Well have you ever heard a dspMusik 2x8 or dspNexus 2x8 DSP XO? If not, then how do you make that conclusion?
It has gotten even better since Danny heard it on the Line Force speakers. The dspNexus 2x8 is to be released before AXPONA 2023.
No I haven’t. I was just going off of Danny’s impressions. Because if he heard a demo of what I use, he would be a dedicated DSP man today.
Perhaps Danny needs a fresh demo of the new dspNexus and he will change his mind.
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Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours.
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.
I may have my doubts about that.
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you, and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about. This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro. I have my doubts about that as well.
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Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours.
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.
I may have my doubts about that.
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you, and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about. This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro. I have my doubts about that as well.
Danny doesn’t make electronics, nor has he claimed to. And I’ve never met a man who can give a proper evaluation on what he’s never experienced. Even someone like Danny can’t do that.
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I saw your rather bare bones website that claimed that you design systems for yachts. Can you provide more detail that can be verified?
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Many levels beyond that are possible. If you heard what I use, you would never go back to passive.
Or if you heard my system you may never go back to yours. You can't make claims like that without knowing what you are up against.
What DAC's are you using? Let's start there.
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Or maybe if you heard what Danny does, you'd change yours.
You seem very confident that you have the best way to the best sound.
I may have my doubts about that.
However, you come to a manufacturers circle to say he doesn't know as much as you, and he needs to hear the newest stuff that you know more about. This isn't professional, and you claim to be a pro. I have my doubts about that as well.
Why is our world filled with so many freaking "experts" these days who do not have much, if any experience? And Audio especially, why are people always giving their opinion as if fact? On Amps they have never heard, speakers they have never heard, etc? And then to come onto manufacturer's circles and claim to know more than the manufacturer? Jeez.....Danny is a patient man.
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What I have in mind is making an assembly of dual LM10’s and a single LM2 operate as 1 homogenous unit that covers 250-20000hz. Then this assembly could be stacked to create line arrays of any height. Just like the BMS 4508, only with a shallower mounting depth. I make in wall speakers. So it’s desirable to have a shallow mounting depth. And in very large rooms, line sources are desirable. But I’ll only do a line source if I can align the acoustic centres of the drivers playing 250-20000. Much like Wisdom Audio does. Because it’s not possible to make the very best line array if the acoustic centres aren’t aligned. Because in a massive room, you want to achieve a uniform power response across the entire room. So everyone gets a rich, vibrant sound experience no matter where they are.
So a LM10, a tweeter, another LM10, and then stack and repeat? Like a staked MTM, but with woofer on both sides and a tweeter in the middle? And you think that will give you a uniform response?
You are new at this aren't you?
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No I haven’t. I was just going off of Danny’s impressions. Because if he heard a demo of what I use, he would be a dedicated DSP man today.
Perhaps Danny needs a fresh demo of the new dspNexus and he will change his mind.
Maybe you and Rich can come over with your latest models and we can compare?
Rich's system gained a lot of respect from me and I have recommended it many times. So I am not at all opposed to listening and comparing. If I like what I hear then I certainly say so.
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Danny doesn’t make electronics, nor has he claimed to. And I’ve never met a man who can give a proper evaluation on what he’s never experienced. Even someone like Danny can’t do that.
Bring it.
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https://piega.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/PIEGA_MLS_2_EN_Datasheet1.pdf
Line sources are getting quite popular or so it seems!!
Can’t wait to get my Line Forces!! 8)
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As someone who once argued that Danny should listen to some of the newer DSP versions and then discovered how badly my DSP device was harming the sound, I will once more apologize to Danny for having doubted him on that front. ;)
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In my case, I just try to keep an open mind as much as I can. I don’t doubt HAL has a great product (as well as a few others) and it’s only going to get better. Old school vs new school? I’d say both approaches have their merits. :)
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Any development on the Line force? I kinda saw very quickly, in a video where Jay Iyagi visiting, a prototype of the new line force. Radian transducers? I'm pretty anxious to press the buy button and start building it! I have I bought the Italian walnut burl veneer already! :D Keep me posted! Cheers and thanks in advance.
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Any development on the Line force? I kinda saw very quickly, in a video where Jay Iyagi visiting, a prototype of the new line force. Radian transducers? I'm pretty anxious to press the buy button and start building it! I have I bought the Italian walnut burl veneer already! :D Keep me posted! Cheers and thanks in advance.
That's not a prototype, or a new model.
That's a line force being used for a customer that will be using the GRS 10" mids, they aren't nearly as well behaved as the old BG units.
The line force is pretty much stuck on the back burner for now, we may pursue a new version in the future using the Radian drivers, but the cabinet will need to be redesigned to fit those drivers, as well as custom drivers, to keep the impedance load balanced.
We've got other projects we need to work on first, especially considering how expensive these will end up being, and will require a lot of development costs.