CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?

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Slapshot

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CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« on: 6 Jun 2021, 04:55 am »
As indicated, I am awaiting a lovely pair of CAM's at the end of the month. Several Omega owners have indicated that I will also need to add a subwoofer for optimum sound. At least two mentioned the REL T5i. Your thoughts on this matter would be appreciated.

My room is 12x 9.5.  Thanks for any assistance.

JC

Doody

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #1 on: 6 Jun 2021, 02:06 pm »
It's not an absolute. It depends on what you like and want and what kind of music you listen to. I had CAMs in a room about that size without a sub for a while and ultimately chose to add a sub (an Omega). It was not a subtle improvement. Did a ton of research on subs and ended up trusting Louis' take on subs.

Enjoy!

Doody

pstrisik

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #2 on: 6 Jun 2021, 03:06 pm »
If you are getting subs, definitely look at Rythmik's or Louis'.  Both are fast enough to keep up with the Omega speed.  You can also go for Rythmik's dual eights (if you are only looking at a single sub) which may be easier to blend.  I have a pair of their single eights and they blend marvelously with SAMHO.  I have a pair of Rythmik's F12's that I am not running due to having moved into a condo, but I'm not really missing them with the eights.  I do recommend a pair of subs, whichever model you get as blending will be smoother.

RDavidson

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #3 on: 6 Jun 2021, 03:10 pm »
Agree. The CAMs can play on their own quite well, like many monitor speakers. I ran them by themselves for a long time. I am not a bass head, but adding a sub was certainly an improvement. I suggest playing them by themselves, getting acquainted with them, breaking them in, then adding a sub a little later. Dialing-in the sub should be easier after break-in.

roscoe65

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #4 on: 6 Jun 2021, 04:56 pm »
If you are getting subs, definitely look at Rythmik's or Louis'.  Both are fast enough to keep up with the Omega speed.  You can also go for Rythmik's dual eights (if you are only looking at a single sub) which may be easier to blend.  I have a pair of their single eights and they blend marvelously with SAMHO.  I have a pair of Rythmik's F12's that I am not running due to having moved into a condo, but I'm not really missing them with the eights.  I do recommend a pair of subs, whichever model you get as blending will be smoother.

I use a pair of Rhythmik F8’s with all my speakers.  These speakers will not hit the deepest bass as well as a larger (12”) subwoofer, but they really reinforce the range from 30-250hz, depending on crossover.  With stereo subwoofers I can cross over as high as I want to fill in the missing midbass of a single Omega driver.  The two eights are nearly the same area of a single 12” and will move a similar amount of air.

One disadvantage of these units is that they only have line level input.  If you wish to run them off the speaker level signal (a la Rel and Omega) you need to knock together a voltage divider adapter ( https://robrobinette.com/RobinetteBox.htm) to run them off the speaker level.

Slapshot

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #5 on: 6 Jun 2021, 11:26 pm »
If you are getting subs, definitely look at Rythmik's or Louis'.  Both are fast enough to keep up with the Omega speed.  You can also go for Rythmik's dual eights (if you are only looking at a single sub) which may be easier to blend.  I have a pair of their single eights and they blend marvelously with SAMHO.  I have a pair of Rythmik's F12's that I am not running due to having moved into a condo, but I'm not really missing them with the eights.  I do recommend a pair of subs, whichever model you get as blending will be smoother.

I certainly appreciate the advice. However, both of those solutions put me in the $1000.00 area, which is more than I can manage, unfortunately, after buying the CAM's, plus a SET amp that wont be cheap. I can pick up a something like a used REL T5i for maybe $400.00. And two people I've spoken with have partnered  a T5i, very successfully, with their Omega's.

JC

pstrisik

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #6 on: 6 Jun 2021, 11:29 pm »
I certainly appreciate the advice. However, both of those solutions put me in the $1000.00 area, which is more than I can manage, unfortunately, after buying the CAM's, plus a SET amp that wont be cheap. I can pick up a something like a used REL T5i for maybe $400.00. And two people I've spoken with have partnered  a T5i, very successfully, with their Omega's.

JC

If I were in your situation, I would wait, break in and get a feel for the CAMs while you save up.  Get a pair of whatever you do get.  If I had a choice between a single excellent sub or a pair of very good subs, I would go for the pair.

Slapshot

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #7 on: 6 Jun 2021, 11:34 pm »
If I were in your situation, I would wait, break in and get a feel for the CAMs while you save up.  Get a pair of whatever you do get.  If I had a choice between a single excellent sub or a pair of very good subs, I would go for the pair.

Good advice, and I was planning to wait and give the standalone CAM's plenty of time. I understand it would be optimum, but given the layout of the room, it would be very difficult tog et dual subs in there physically, unless they were tiny.

JC

NoDisco

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #8 on: 6 Jun 2021, 11:54 pm »
Omegas with a pair of rels. Perfect together. I do it myself.

Docere

Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #9 on: 7 Jun 2021, 09:33 am »
If I were in your situation, I would wait, break in and get a feel for the CAMs while you save up.  Get a pair of whatever you do get.  If I had a choice between a single excellent sub or a pair of very good subs, I would go for the pair.

Maybe; maybe not? One person's opinion...

https://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2020/05/why-you-dont-need-two-subs.html

Milan

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #10 on: 7 Jun 2021, 01:10 pm »
Hi JC,

please allow me to express my modest opinion about subwoofers. I am owner of pair of Omega HO SAMs. On paper they start from 38 Hz. Your CAMs start on paper from 42 Hz I think. When I tried to check the speakers with below application: https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ the speakers played even lower frequencies than 38 Hz. Recently I have finished my 7 band Spectrum analyzer, which shows me the visible reaction on the 63 Hz and 160 Hz of the audio signal in first two bands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqJKDJ-LXT0&t=6s So I can visually recognize the lower frequencies of the music. I was very surprised, that most of the music I listen to does not excite the first 63 Hz band much. I mean rock and pop from 80-ties and 90-ties. O
Only if I play some new music, mostly electronica, the lower frequencies are presented much more in the music. Maybe because the production of this kind of music is probably done with electronic devices only, nothing like real drums.
I came to the conclusion that I do not need to hear anything below 38 Hz. I find it is helpful only for watching movies, just for explosions etc. But is not my case.
The biggest advantage of FR speakers is no need of a crossover. Therefore I think that to add a subwoofer to the SET amp and FR speakers is a step back.







rollo

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jun 2021, 03:53 pm »
  Only true way of knowing is to set them out with a sub. Then turn sub on and off . Your ears will tell you. Not rocket science.


charles

pstrisik

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Re: CAM's On Order - Do I Need A Sub?
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jun 2021, 04:17 pm »
Maybe; maybe not? One person's opinion...

https://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2020/05/why-you-dont-need-two-subs.html

True.  Can vary based on the room.  I know in my last setup, the room was ~25 x 27'.  Added a second sub and bass was more defined and stronger with perceptually less effort.

I came to the conclusion that I do not need to hear anything below 38 Hz. I find it is helpful only for watching movies, just for explosions etc. But is not my case.
The biggest advantage of FR speakers is no need of a crossover. Therefore I think that to add a subwoofer to the SET amp and FR speakers is a step back.

In my new room (haven't measured the size, but pretty large) I am not running subs.  But I am running a pair of powered 8" Rythmik midwoofers that solidly go down to 30hz.  I am not really missing the subs.

I don't consider this as using a crossover.  The woofers have low pass.  I have SAMHOs that have a second helper driver that has low pass at 200hz.  The full range driver is still receiving a full range signal and running full range with no crossover in its path.  The crossover elements in this system are all at 200hz or below on the other drivers.  Coherence is maintained and bass ranges are enhanced.

Regarding the SAMHO, Louis makes the points below.  Arguably, the helper driver is a closer use of a crossover element than an external sub:

Quote
The Super Alnico High Output Monitor is not a 2 way design, but a 1.5 way design.
What separates it from a 2 way design?

  •     The drivers are identical except for the dustcap of the low frequency (LF) driver.
  •      There is no power sucking, midrange muddying crossover.
  •      The LF driver is cut off at 200Hz, so there is no phase and time misalignment as in a two way speaker.
  •      The HF driver still functions as a single driver, single point source running full range.
  •      2 drivers work less hard as 1 driver.
  •      Same combined surface area as a 9.5" single driver.
  •      Higher efficiency (97dB)
  •      More dynamic performance than a single driver.
  •      Will play louder than a single driver.
  •      Will handle more complex music than a single driver and is just as fast.

......Pete