[Saturn94]

I might be worth a try using the Cardas method.  You can find the info on the Cardas website.  Doesn't cost anything to try other than some sweat equity.

Thanks for the tip.

I've looked at that before, but if I remember correctly, my room layout couldn't accomodate that setup.

As a refresher, I took a look at the long wall placement recommendations again and noticed that it seems to indicate a symetrical setup (not possible in my room; half of the room is the living area and half is the dining area).  I'll check again this weekend and see how close I can get to the recommended ratios.  Of course another matter affecting the results is the fact that my room isn't a simple rectangle.  Between the cathedral ceiling and the openings behind the seating area it's possible this method wouldn't be effective in my room.

 

 

[vintagebob]

Bob- Hi.  I'd be interested to know if you are sitting at the apex of an equliateral triangle or one with longer legs.  If so, how long?  And, how far are the front of your speakers from the wall behind them?

My setup right now is about 102" equilateral with the front of the speakers 60" from the back wall.

[jimdgoulding]

Hi, Bob  I like Waymer's set up from the looks of it at the link you provided except that I would flip the placement so my speaks are in front of the short wall firing into the length of the room (a rectangle).  Also, even tho the wall behind my seat is diffused with open back record cabinets up against the wall, I still prefer that the distance from the front of my speaks to the wall behind them not be the duplicate of the distance from my ears to the wall behind me.  I think the centerfront of your speaks should be a minimum of 44" from your side walls or greater and think 60" more or less from the wall behind them is the ideal neighborhood for your speaks.  Some modest toe-in to your ears in an equilateral triangle and all you then gotta do is get your bass even with fine adjustments.  Now, I listen to a lot of classical music recorded on location and this works best for me for balance and a cohesive and expansive stage.  For studio recordings I will from time to time scoot my seat back some for a bolder in room presence.  But that's just me and I think MS placement is a distortion in itself.  Unless I am mistaken, it was designed for show rooms where listeners are frequently not seated front and center- a general kind of sound in other words- and the near wall placement will amplify a speaker's low end.  The room sound I want is the room sound in my recordings, those that have it.  Cheers.

[Saturn94]

My setup right now is about 102" equilateral with the front of the speakers 60" from the back wall.

How much toe in are you using (expressed in the difference in inches between the outside and inside corner of the speaker to the wall behind)?

I ask because my HT2-TLs are set similar to yours; 102" apart (center to center) and about 96"-100" to the center listening position with 4" of toe in (aimed directly at the center seat).  So far this setup has given me the best soundstage/imaging.  I haven't tried reducing the toe in yet with them placed this wide apart.  I may try that later.

BTW, I suspect because I can only bring them out about 30" max from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them, bass is pretty boomy if I play them full range.  No matter though since in my room I get the best performance using a sub with my HT2-TLs.  This has been true no matter where I placed the HT2-TLs, within my placement restrictions, so I always use the sub.

Thanks.

[jimdgoulding]

Btw, you are sitting far enough away for your speaker drivers to integrate have no worries about that.

[jimdgoulding]

Oh, and the TV.  I guess it's got to be there but it IS reflective.  You know those foam mattress pads they use in hospitals that look like what shippers to market use to separate apples?  Something like that might be good that's removable, of course.  Maybe some fellow AC'er's can recommend something. 

[Saturn94]

Oh, and the TV.  I guess it's got to be there but it IS reflective.  You know those foam mattress pads they use in hospitals that look like what shippers to market use to separate apples?  Something like that might be good that's removable, of course.  Maybe some fellow AC'er's can recommend something.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that.  I would need something that is easy to move aside, doesn't touch the TV to avoid any chance of damage, and is cheap.  I've also been thinking of mounting the TV on the wall and get rid of the stand, this would allow better positioning of the center channel and perphaps make it easier to come up with something moveable to tame the audio reflections from the TV.  I must admit though, as good as the soundstage and imaging sounds right now I'm not that motivated to tackle that project just yet.

[vintagebob]

How much toe in are you using (expressed in the difference in inches between the outside and inside corner of the speaker to the wall behind)?

I ask because my HT2-TLs are set similar to yours; 102" apart (center to center) and about 96"-100" to the center listening position with 4" of toe in (aimed directly at the center seat).  So far this setup has given me the best soundstage/imaging.  I haven't tried reducing the toe in yet with them placed this wide apart.  I may try that later.

BTW, I suspect because I can only bring them out about 30" max from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them, bass is pretty boomy if I play them full range.  No matter though since in my room I get the best performance using a sub with my HT2-TLs.  This has been true no matter where I placed the HT2-TLs, within my placement restrictions, so I always use the sub.

Thanks.

I'm using very little toe-in, about 1/2 inch.  I find that too much toe-in seems to smear the center image.

[Saturn94]

I'm using very little toe-in, about 1/2 inch.  I find that too much toe-in seems to smear the center image.

Interesting.  In my setup with aggressive toe in I certainly wouldn't call the center image smeared.  I'm sure individual setups/room acoustics are a big factor on what works best.

In my last speaker postition change I posted about earlier, I changed both width and toe in at the same time, so I didn't hear what each individual change would have made.  When I have some time I think I play around with different amounts of toe in and see what happens.

[Saturn94]

Reviving this old thread......again.

I've owned my HT2-TLs since mid Feb 2011 and am still tweaking their position (not very fun to do considering how heavy they are).  Up until now it seems I've been having trouble getting my HT2-TL's to "disappear" in the soundstage and really open up to my satisfaction (my ADS L1290's easily disappeared in a very open sounding soundstage).

I do have placement/seating limitations, especially how far out into the room I can place speakers; about 30" max from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them, which places them about 8ft from my prime listening position.  So I'm pretty much limited to playing with speaker width and toe in.

I started by placing the HT2-TLs in the same position as the ADS, but I wasn't entirely happy with that.  Some here suggested limited or no toe in.  This seem to help a little, but still not there.  I tried more aggressive toe in, but still not satisfied.  I tried some formula I found about listening distance in relation to how far apart to place the speaker.  The results were good, but not great.  I was beginning to think they just weren't going to open up that much in my room (dang room ) and by mid May settled on having them 7ft apart (center to center) with 1.25" toe in and 8ft from my listening position.  They sounded pretty good in this position, but I can't say I was thrilled with them.

Last month I heard a setup at the Capitol Audiofest that I really enjoyed.  It was a pair of monitors that were set up pretty wide with quite aggressive toe in.  I would have thought that such aggressive toe in would produce great imaging, would would limit the width of the soundstage and have a very narrow sweet spot.  But in this case the result was a very wide/open soundstage with great imaging and a wide sweet spot/area.  I just figured it must have to do with that particular speaker design and drivers used.

I was thinking about this setup the past few days and wondered if the result wasn't so much the speaker design/drivers as it was the wide stance combined with aggressive toe in.  So tonight I spread the HT2-TLs apart as much as I could (8.5ft center to center) and pointed them directly at the center seating position 8ft away (this resulted in 4 inches of toe in).  This certainly was visually appealing as it opened up the space between the speakers and with the aggressive toe in the sides of the speaker are no longer visible from the center seat, making them visually slimmer/less obtrusive.  I put on some of my favorite CDs, including the great sampler that came with the Salks , and was quite surprised at what I heard; a wide/open soundstage while maintaining great imaging and a bit wider sweet spot.  The speakers also "disappear" better into the soundstage.  Now this is more like it!

Everything I've played so far sounds great.  Time will tell, but I think I might have finally found my HT2-TL's sweet spot in my room.

The moral of this story?  Sometimes the best tweaks are free and as much of a pain it may be, keep experimenting with speaker position and forget about the "rules".

Update:

Someone in another thread recommended I try less toe in.  In their setup it widened the soundstage.  I gave it a try but found it didn't widen the soundstage by much and the image became more diffuse.  Experimenting with a number of different toe in positions while maintaining my speakers current wide stance I found I still get the best results using quite a bit of toe in.  This time I settled on just slightly less toe in than described in my above post.  Instead of being aimed directly at the center listening position, they are aimed at my shoulders when seated in the center position.

At least in my room/setup, toe in doesn't affect soundstage width much.  It mainly affects imaging focus and depth.  Soundstage width seems to be mainly affected by how far apart from each other I place the speakers relative to the distance to the listening position.

Perhaps next I'll experiment with even more aggressive toe in with the convergence point crossing in front of the listening position and see how that sounds.

[Big Red Machine]

Did you say how big your room is?  Like Bob, I have only a gratuitous amount of toe-in and dependent on the music, the speakers disappear.  Only a few feet separate the speakers from any wall.  Perhaps my room treatments and Bob's treatments are making this happen?

[Nuance]

I too have a limited amount of width in my room, and I've found room treatments help...a LOT.  Bass traps and a panel behind each speaker are my next audio purchase, and then I'll probably add ceiling diffusion and call it a day.  But without some serious treatments my room would be a lot less appealing.  Refresh my memory, Saturn: are you using room treatments?

[Saturn94]

Did you say how big your room is?  Like Bob, I have only a gratuitous amount of toe-in and dependent on the music, the speakers disappear.  Only a few feet separate the speakers from any wall.  Perhaps my room treatments and Bob's treatments are making this happen?

The room is roughly 25'x14'.  Speakers are on the long wall.  Here a link where you can see the layout (the speakers are about 20" further apart now then when I made that diagram);

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

Because of the layout of the room, side room treatments are not an option.

Interestingly, my HT2-TLs disappear better when toed in more rather than less.

[Art_Chicago]

The room is roughly 25'x14'.  Speakers are on the long wall.  Here a link where you can see the layout (the speakers are about 20" further apart now then when I made that diagram);

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

Because of the layout of the room, side room treatments are not an option.

Interestingly, my HT2-TLs disappear better when toed in more rather than less.

My room is about the same size, and the speakers are also placed against the long wall. I toe in my ST's about 25 degrees to get a beautiful stereo, otherwise it sounds like 2 big boxes -- left and right channels. 

[Big Red Machine]

This makes sense that the long wall with distant reflective surfaces may require toeing in.  Looks like my short wall set-up is using the reflections to get the imaging.  Interesting, if my hypothesis is true.

[Saturn94]

My room is about the same size, and the speakers are also placed against the long wall. I toe in my ST's about 25 degrees to get a beautiful stereo, otherwise it sounds like 2 big boxes -- left and right channels.

Same here.

This makes sense that the long wall with distant reflective surfaces may require toeing in.  Looks like my short wall set-up is using the reflections to get the imaging.  Interesting, if my hypothesis is true.

I think perhaps distance to listening position is a factor as well.  I think as listening distance gets shorter in proportion to the width of the speakers more toe in is needed; as listening distance gets longer in proportion to speaker width, less toe in (if any) is needed.  It could also have something to do with long wall placement vs short wall placement as you mentioned.

When I tried using less toe in the other day, I noticed it worked fine if I listened from the back of the room (listening distance longer than speaker width) instead of my usual position on the couch (listening distance shorter than speaker width).

I'm curious if anyone who is using a short wall placement has experimented with this to see if they notice the same.

Do we have any acoustic experts here that can shed some light on this?

[ccotenj]

Reviving this old thread......again.

I've owned my HT2-TLs since mid Feb 2011 and am still tweaking their position (not very fun to do considering how heavy they are).  Up until now it seems I've been having trouble getting my HT2-TL's to "disappear" in the soundstage and really open up to my satisfaction (my ADS L1290's easily disappeared in a very open sounding soundstage).

I do have placement/seating limitations, especially how far out into the room I can place speakers; about 30" max from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them, which places them about 8ft from my prime listening position.  So I'm pretty much limited to playing with speaker width and toe in.

I started by placing the HT2-TLs in the same position as the ADS, but I wasn't entirely happy with that.  Some here suggested limited or no toe in.  This seem to help a little, but still not there.  I tried more aggressive toe in, but still not satisfied.  I tried some formula I found about listening distance in relation to how far apart to place the speaker.  The results were good, but not great.  I was beginning to think they just weren't going to open up that much in my room (dang room ) and by mid May settled on having them 7ft apart (center to center) with 1.25" toe in and 8ft from my listening position.  They sounded pretty good in this position, but I can't say I was thrilled with them.

Last month I heard a setup at the Capitol Audiofest that I really enjoyed.  It was a pair of monitors that were set up pretty wide with quite aggressive toe in.  I would have thought that such aggressive toe in would produce great imaging, would would limit the width of the soundstage and have a very narrow sweet spot.  But in this case the result was a very wide/open soundstage with great imaging and a wide sweet spot/area.  I just figured it must have to do with that particular speaker design and drivers used.

I was thinking about this setup the past few days and wondered if the result wasn't so much the speaker design/drivers as it was the wide stance combined with aggressive toe in.  So tonight I spread the HT2-TLs apart as much as I could (8.5ft center to center) and pointed them directly at the center seating position 8ft away (this resulted in 4 inches of toe in).  This certainly was visually appealing as it opened up the space between the speakers and with the aggressive toe in the sides of the speaker are no longer visible from the center seat, making them visually slimmer/less obtrusive.  I put on some of my favorite CDs, including the great sampler that came with the Salks , and was quite surprised at what I heard; a wide/open soundstage while maintaining great imaging and a bit wider sweet spot.  The speakers also "disappear" better into the soundstage.  Now this is more like it!

Everything I've played so far sounds great.  Time will tell, but I think I might have finally found my HT2-TL's sweet spot in my room.

The moral of this story?  Sometimes the best tweaks are free and as much of a pain it may be, keep experimenting with speaker position and forget about the "rules".

playing around a bit in my room this afternoon and tried this out...  i need to play a bit more, but y'know something, this is working pretty well so far... 

the thing that made itself obvious right away is that the sweet spot appears to have grown pretty substantially...  without any obvious damage being caused...

time to push around speakers for a couple more hours...   

glad you posted this, since i never would have tried it otherwise...  thanks.. 

[Saturn94]

playing around a bit in my room this afternoon and tried this out...  i need to play a bit more, but y'know something, this is working pretty well so far... 

the thing that made itself obvious right away is that the sweet spot appears to have grown pretty substantially...  without any obvious damage being caused...

time to push around speakers for a couple more hours...   

glad you posted this, since i never would have tried it otherwise...  thanks.. 

I'm glad my post was helpful.