My neighbor visited yesterday and asked , "Where is the middle speaker?"

oneinthepipe · « **on:** 20 Sep 2009, 05:59 am »

A neighbor visited yesterday for a while when she came over to pick up her kid from my home. I was working from home in the afternoon. I had come home early because the postal carrier had delivered an NOS rectifier tube and a matched pair of NOS driver tubes for my AVA Ultimate 70 from Jim McShane, which I installed in the amplifier and which significantly improved the amplifier's sound. When my neighbor came over, I was listening to music while sitting at my computer at a desk in the rear corner of the room (where there is a big 45hz bump).

She walked into the room and told me that the music sounded good. She sat in my listening chair, closed her eyes, and listened to Norah Jones. (I stopped working and listened, too, but she had the sweet spot.) After approximately three tracks, she turned to me and asked, "Where is the middle speaker?" I replied that the speakers are there and pointed to the two HT2-TL a few feet away from her. She replied, "But her voice is coming from there", pointing to a spot in between the speakers and in the center of a five foot wide threshold into the kitchen. I stated, "I know." Then, she stated, "But where is the middle speaker?" She actually got up and stood between the two speakers, which was about six feet away from where she had been sitting, and looked for a (non-existent) center channel speaker.

I think that I have the instrument placement, width-wise anyway, pretty well dialed in.

Pez · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 06:30 am »

Or your hiding a speaker.

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 09:57 am »

I've gotten similar response from even 8 and 9 year olds. Within seconds of landing in "the" chair, their eyes open widely and their mouths open in a smile of amazement. To see the joyful discovery of something wonderful from a child is but too fleeting of a pleasure.

(Having a fully prescribed Cardas room and nearfield setup with single driver speakers no doubt helps.

)

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 12:12 pm »

Gee, 2 speakers creating a 3 dimensional field. Good job Henry! Isn't 2 channel awesome when done correctly?

Wayner

srb · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm »

I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

ctviggen · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 02:31 pm »

Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm

I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

I agree, and this is using a variety of equipment and speakers (from $600 for the amp and speakers to over 20k for speakers, amp, cables). It's when Johnny Cash (or whomever) seems as if he's directly in front of you, singing, that I become excited.

PMAT · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 02:35 pm »

Party poopers! It can be there in the middle or it can be HOLY CHRIST SCARY REAL in-the-middle. Like goose bumps real.

earthbound · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: PMAT on 20 Sep 2009, 02:35 pm

Party poopers! It can be there in the middle or it can be HOLY CHRIST SCARY REAL in-the-middle. Like goose bumps real.

+1 infinity on that!!

The phantom center with my old non-Salk speakers was there too, but with the HT2-TLs it is incredibly there! It's a huge difference, making the old speaks sound smeary in the phantom zone by comparison. Since its almost always just my wife and me listening to music, I get to have the sweet spot while she sits closer to the window and reads, which is her favorite hobby. I'm a happy, lucky guy!

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 04:07 pm »

Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm

I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

Yes, of course the vocals are in the middle. WE all know that. Obviously, my neighbor had not listened to or paid much attention to two-channel audio systems. Her husband and she recently moved back in to their house after a complete year-long renovation and addition. I haven't seen the interior of the house yet, but my wife told me that the home was beautiful and included an audio/home theater system and a whole-house music system. I imagine the cost was plenty.

In my system, every thing is right, regarding instrument and vocal placement. I have a 45hz boom that I am working on, and floors that resonate, and a lot of other obstacles associated with a 205 square foot room in a 105 year old house, but the output is relatively flat otherwise. I have heard other two-channel systems, however, where the vocals, while they might have been centered, were 10 feet too high or 20 feet too far back. Mine is just right.

The point of my post, however, was the surprised reaction of a my neighbor, an affluent, music-loving, well-educated, middle-aged person who, with her husband, had invested what I believe has been a substantial amount of money in music systems. Norah was right there, singing to my neighbor. She could have gotten up, walked over to her, and touched her.

Party poopers is right!

NB: I don't have any Johnny Cash, but I will invite him over later.

droht · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 04:17 pm »

It's not just that the vocals are centered, but that there is clean separation among all instruments. I've heard, and had, set ups where all parts of the sound just seemed to come from the same place. When I first heard good separation in a 2.0 set up I had a near-religious experience. I remember being able to easily envision each performer and pinpoint which sounds came from their instruments, and thinking "Jesus, this is what those yahoos on the 'net have been talking about". And there has been no turning back since...

Cool story oneinthepipe. Thanks for sharing.

Wayner · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 04:28 pm »

If Johnny Cash shows up you'll really have a phantom center image as John has passed away.

Wayner

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 04:37 pm »

Its fun to show people what 2 channel is really about, even ones who grew up listening to 2 channel, isn't it? That happened with my wife's friend once. It also happened the first time *I* listened to a hi-end rig.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 06:27 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 20 Sep 2009, 04:28 pm

If Johnny Cash shows up you'll really have a phantom center image as John has passed away.

Wayner

Wayner:

Yes, I know. "Better than live" wouldn't apply in Johnny's case.

K Shep · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 06:42 pm »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 20 Sep 2009, 04:07 pm

Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm
I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

The point of my post, however, was the surprised reaction of a my neighbor...

I get it. I have had a few friends sit in my sweet spot. Some are overwhelmed and others just will say "it is very clear I can hear everything". The former is more gratifying.

You also mentioned the vocals being too far back, in my small listening room, I have my speakers placed 6 inches from the side wall, my Revels have a boundary adjustment which enables this placement, and the soundstage is about 8 feet deep. I really enjoy the effect and separation I currently have. That said, some tracks I find myself turning the volume up because it seens like the artist is sitting too far away.

Kirk

Kris · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 07:09 pm »

In my stereo setup some music notes seem to come from the back wall, and i have many visitors looking over their shoulders while listening to music and asking, "where are the surround speakers?".

srb · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 07:09 pm »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 20 Sep 2009, 04:07 pm

Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm
I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

The point of my post, however, was the surprised reaction of a my neighbor...

I understand now. The original post was focusing on the centering of the voice with the lack of a center speaker, but in subsequent posts you further described the height and depth of the image, as well as the separation of instruments.

I wasn't trying to poop on your party. I am as big of a fanboy of the Salk speakers as I can without actually owning them (yet). In my own experience, my soundstage, imaging and separation was greatly improved when I acquired speakers with ribbon tweeters. Although, they have limited vertical dispersion compared to domes, I find the realism sometimes startling, without ever being harsh or strident.

Steve

JimJ · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 07:21 pm »

Quote from: Pez on 20 Sep 2009, 06:30 am

Or your hiding a speaker.

What's funny is, I've heard "certified" SQ judges in car audio competition orgs swear that people have had center channel speakers, when all they had is an empty grill in the dash

They'd remove the grill, and the center image would "change", lol.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 07:27 pm »

Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 07:09 pm

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 20 Sep 2009, 04:07 pm
Quote from: srb on 20 Sep 2009, 02:28 pm
I have never heard a 2 channel stereo system where the voice didn't appear to eminate from the center when sitting in the middle, providing there was an equal mix of the voice in the 2 channels.

Steve

The point of my post, however, was the surprised reaction of a my neighbor...

I understand now. The original post was focusing on the centering of the voice with the lack of a center speaker, but in subsequent posts you further described the height and depth of the image, as well as the separation of instruments.

I wasn't trying to poop on your party. I am as big of a fanboy of the Salk speakers as I can without actually owning them (yet). In my own experience, my soundstage, imaging and separation was greatly improved when I acquired speakers with ribbon tweeters. Although, they have limited vertical dispersion compared to domes, I find the realism sometimes startling, without ever being harsh or strident.

Steve

Steve:

I think that we were all joking around.

The ribbon tweeters in the HT2-TL obviously help with the imaging, although the OWII tweeters in the ST are also supposed to be very good. (My KEF 101 Reference Series use the T27 tweeters, with 19mm domes, and the B110 mid/bass drivers, and they also image very well.) I also believe that the AVA electronics and the room treatments contribute a lot. My room is treated with rigid fiberglass panels, and if my room were larger, I would also use diffusion.

drphoto · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 07:48 pm »

Several years ago dated a woman who lived in the DC area, and on one my visits I asked her if she could drive me around to all these different audio dealers, as there are none in my backwater town of Louisville.

Well we heards lots of fairly well known and pretty expensive stuff, most of which sounded decent, but I could tell she's was getting pretty bored w/ the whole thing.

Finally we get to the last stop, the one I really wanted to go to. Hard to find, as it was actually in a guys house, not a storefront.

Now this system was the kind that produces that big soundstage with everything just floating in space like you're describing. 15 seconds into the song (same one we'd played everywhere else) she turned to me and said "Ok, NOW I get it!"

Nuance · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 02:24 am »

Quote from: earthbound on 20 Sep 2009, 02:42 pm

The phantom center with my old non-Salk speakers was there too, but with the HT2-TLs it is incredibly there! It's a huge difference, making the old speaks sound smeary in the phantom zone by comparison. Since its almost always just my wife and me listening to music, I get to have the sweet spot while she sits closer to the window and reads, which is her favorite hobby. I'm a happy, lucky guy!

+1, +1 and +1 again.

It helps to have an awesome wife, eh?

Great story. Like has been mentioned, sure any decently set up pair of speakers will put the vocals in the center, but will they give the illusion that the artist is actually there? I can only think of a few that have done that for me, and every Salk speaker I've heard accomplished this. That says a lot IMO. And don't even get me started about how deep, wide and enveloping the soundstage/imaging is. Oh yeah baby!!