[Nuance]

There isn't a lot of information available on the rumored "HT4's," but what we do know is they are being considered, including some testing being done. 

In my opinion the HT3 is going to be tough to beat, but Jim and Dennis are pros.  If the "HT4" progresses and gets the green light, it's going to make a huge statement for Salk Sound (not that they need one, but still...). 

What we know so far:

- A 12" bass woofer is rumored to replaced the HT3's 10 incher.
- Different drivers will be used for the midrange and tweeter than what's in the HT3.
- It will probably be a larger cabinet.
- It will cost significantly more than the HT3, but if Jim and Dennis can achieve the performance level they hope to, the price increase won't matter.  We're talking Kef 207/2 and Revel Studio/Ultima performance here, at least from what I've gathered. 

Anyone else have any info that they are allowed to share that won't upset Jim and Dennis?  This is preliminary at this stage, but it sure is fun to talk about. 

I'd like this to be the official "HT4" discussion and suggestion thread, at least until the real specifications are revealed. 

Happy anticipating!   

[Big Red Machine]

All options being considered AFAIK right now.

[zybar]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

[Philistine]

On the 'assumption' that collaborations between Jim/Dennis have a 'house sound' or voice, any one care to comment on improvements the HT4's could have over the HT3's?  This might be easier to answer by those that have/heard other models in the Salk family and, on this basis, who can extrapolate up from other models to HT3's.   
   
From a price perspective I'm guessing that we're looking at $10k, and if this is the case they should be compared with 'big names' priced at $18k upwards?

[fsimms]

As Sargent Schultz says, "I know nothing.... nothing!"

I would guess that it would be more efficient, play louder and voiced for a larger room.  Just a wag.

Bob

[Nuance]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

That would be incredible! 

I've not yet heard the HT3's, but I have heard the Vandersteen's.  The 5A's are the greatest speaker I've had to had the pleasure to hear.  Period!

I am aware that Jim doesn't talk about products that aren't available yet, but that doesn't mean we can't.     Besides, it's fun to guess what the new "beast" will be. 

I think I read somewhere that the 12" woofer should extend to at least 25Hz, which is quite astounding IMO. 

[Big Red Machine]

That's funny.  I thought the 5A's were blah.  So in my own twisted way, I hope they don't sound like them.  I had my sites more on the VSA 9E!  Or Alexandria!  ha

[zybar]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 are very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

[zybar]

That's funny.  I thought the 5A's were blah.  So in my own twisted way, I hope they don't sound like them.  I had my sites more on the VSA 9E!  Or Alexandria!  ha

Pete,

What do you feel the VSA 9E's do better?

As to the 5A's sounding blah...I respect your opinion but obviously feel quite differently.

George

[Big Red Machine]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 is very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

Totally, 1000% agree with every word!

[Big Red Machine]

That's funny.  I thought the 5A's were blah.  So in my own twisted way, I hope they don't sound like them.  I had my sites more on the VSA 9E!  Or Alexandria!  ha

Pete,

What do you feel the VSA 9E's do better?

As to the 5A's sounding blah...I respect your opinion but obviously feel quite differently.

George

I have no idea.  I was just gunning for large sound from large speakers!

I thought the 5A's were too laid back from my listen at RMAF.  Must have been those Ayre amps!

[Rob S.]

BRM- were the 5A's at RMAF last year?  I heard the Quatro Wood's at RMAF '08 w/ the Ayre equipment and i thought they were very nice- also a little more polite all inclusive sound.

Did I miss the 5A's this year at the show?

Rob S.

[DMurphy]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 are very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

Thanks for the comments.  That's pretty much what we're trying to accomplish, with the possible exception of #6.  An active woofer is a hard sell, despite obvious advantages.  A lot of people at this end of the market want to use their own amps, and/or avoid complexity. At the very least, I doubt that the HT4 (if it ever makes it to market) would be offered exclusively with a powered woofer.  The woofer is the only driver that's already been selected, and it can be crossed passively.  But an active woofer option is certainly a possibility.  As for the other drivers, Jim willl be getting candidates in over the next couple of months, one very shortly.  They are all either very high end specialized units in very short supply currently, or newly announced drivers by established companies that haven't made it to the U.S.  In any event, I think this thread would be a better vehicle for suggested improvements and desires than speculation about what Jim is up to.  Because it's wide open--including the whole viability of the project. 

[AliG]

George, finally...a guy who knows what he's talking about gives us the 'details' aa aa

Points 1, 2, 4 are closely affected by the 'midrange warmth'. Vandy 5A is definitely a 'warmer' speaker than the HT3. Whether 'warmer' = better depends on individual preference. I believe when Jim/Dennis designed the HT3, they wanted a speakers that sound the 'best' to their ears, the problem is, not everyone share the same taste as the designers. I personally do find the HT3 sounded a little bright and thin when paired with solid-state components, on the other hand, for example the Moscode amp may sound 'roll-off' to people like 'Big Red Machine', I actually need extra 'tube dosage' on my preamp to create even more 'roll-off' so I can listen without fatigue

Speakers design is always a 'trade-off', you want bigger image? You lose the spacing between instruments, some people prefers each instrument to be separated, some people prefer them to overlap - take your poison.

I personally find it gleeful that some manufacturers spent so much time trying to 'educate' or 'convince' people why their designs are better than others. At the end of the day, when everything manifest themselves into sound, we tend to find different people picking different winners. Being a 'seasoned audiophiles', it adds extra credibility if we can refrain from using the words "better" when comparing one speakers to another. There's really no end to the arguments when audiophiles keep using 'qualitative' terms to compare speakers. By the same token, I would prefer a wine expert telling me Wine A is dryer than Wine B, rather than a blanket statement like "Wine A is better than Wine B" - which essentially says nothing!
  

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 are very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

[Big Red Machine]

[/quote]

Thanks for the comments.  That's pretty much what we're trying to accomplish, with the possible exception of #6.  An active woofer is a hard sell, despite obvious advantages.  A lot of people at this end of the market want to use their own amps, and/or avoid complexity. At the very least, I doubt that the HT4 (if it ever makes it to market) would be offered exclusively with a powered woofer.  The woofer is the only driver that's already been selected, and it can be crossed passively.  But an active woofer option is certainly a possibility.  As for the other drivers, Jim willl be getting candidates in over the next couple of months, one very shortly.  They are all either very high end specialized units in very short supply currently, or newly announced drivers by established companies that haven't made it to the U.S.  In any event, I think this thread would be a better vehicle for suggested improvements and desires than speculation about what Jim is up to.  Because it's wide open--including the whole viability of the project. 
[/quote]

Ummm, I'd like a pair of prototypes by my January GTG please.  Work harder, faster!!

And that's early january, not late January, to be clear.

[Nuance]

FWIW, I provided input to Dennis and Jim in how I thought the Vandy 5A's were better than the HT3's.  I believe that their hope was that an HT4 would close or eliminate those gaps.

George

Here are a few areas I would like to see improved in an HT4 model:

1.  better visceral impact/dynamics - while the HT3 are very good, they aren't SOTA.  This isn't an issue of just going deeper, it is about weight and impact (especially in the mid-bass).

2.  more warmth and spaciousness in the mid-range.  The HT3's can sound a little closed in and a little dry.

3.  a little more air and depth in the treble.  The ribbon is great, but cymbals, triangles, etc...can float in the air more with some other designs.

4.  bigger image size in terms of height and depth.

5.  improved sensitivity to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.

6.  powered woofer to allow for a wider range of amps to drive the speakers.


George

Thanks for the comments.  That's pretty much what we're trying to accomplish, with the possible exception of #6.  An active woofer is a hard sell, despite obvious advantages.  A lot of people at this end of the market want to use their own amps, and/or avoid complexity. At the very least, I doubt that the HT4 (if it ever makes it to market) would be offered exclusively with a powered woofer.  The woofer is the only driver that's already been selected, and it can be crossed passively.  But an active woofer option is certainly a possibility.  As for the other drivers, Jim willl be getting candidates in over the next couple of months, one very shortly.  They are all either very high end specialized units in very short supply currently, or newly announced drivers by established companies that haven't made it to the U.S.  In any event, I think this thread would be a better vehicle for suggested improvements and desires than speculation about what Jim is up to.  Because it's wide open--including the whole viability of the project. 

Thanks for clarifying, Dennis.  I changed the title to include "suggestion" as well, as I didn't realize we could do that.  I find it quite amazing that our suggestions will actually be considered.  Seriously...who else does that?  Awesome!!   

[Nuance]

That's funny.  I thought the 5A's were blah.  So in my own twisted way, I hope they don't sound like them.  I had my sites more on the VSA 9E!  Or Alexandria!  ha

Pete,

What do you feel the VSA 9E's do better?

As to the 5A's sounding blah...I respect your opinion but obviously feel quite differently.

George

I have no idea.  I was just gunning for large sound from large speakers!

I thought the 5A's were too laid back from my listen at RMAF.  Must have been those Ayre amps!

They were the 5A's and not the regular 5's?  The original 5's sounded a little dark and laid back to my ears. 

[carusoracer]

Great thread!

Both Alig and Zybar make good comments regarding the HT3's and Choices among other brands of speakers. I think Alig hit it on the head with his comment on comparisons. I'm not a wine connoisseur but I can tell you about great Lagers and Pilsners, which is the best is clearly to ones taste but you can describe what you like among the peer group and perceive as tasting great.

With that said I like some of Zybar's points on improving the HT3's. The midrange I perceive to be sometimes slightly thin, but, deadly accurate to my ears and extremely sensitive to the gear that is upstream. I think this apparent when you have as such high resolution and quality of components as many HT3 owners have.
 
I think the biggest issue from my point of view would be the flexibility issue of the speaker with it's low sensitivity and thirst for power. It does limit Amp choices unless you want to get into the more complex task of Bi/Amping. Dynamics are very good but the mention of the Revel Ulitima for me was the most effortless,Dynamic speaker that I have heard. Yet overall the sound of the HT3 I prefer,especially given the cost of the Revel. I have only heard the lower models of the Vandy's so I can't speak about the 5A. The rest of the line up I would agree with BRM, it was good but did not floor me.

I'm sure others will chime in. I like the interactive discussions among Salk family owners and designers/ engineers. It certainly adds to the sense of pride and ownership. Please don't take away my Veneering choices, that is what makes them all individually special!

[satfrat]

I don't feel comfortable talking about another loudspeaker in Jim's Circle but seeing how it seems to fill this thread and I've actually heard both the HT-3 and Vandy's 5A, I feel the need to express my opinion. WhenI first heard the HT-3, I was blown away. Especially blown away on how seemless the Salk center channel was with the HT-3. It's the 1st and only time I've ever experienced that type of seemlessness from a horizonal center channel. I found the HT-3's to be very dynamic and can easliy fill the room with clear detailed music depending how much power you have available. I loved my time with them.

But I like the Vandy 5A's better even tho I wasn't able to see what they'd do with some power behind them. I found them to be the perfect balance of dynamic, yet a controlled refinement that simply drew me into the music. Musicality seems to ooze from the 5A's with a type of dynamics that doesn't overpower a person. To date they are the best loudspeaker I've heard that complements what I like in a loudspeaker. But then again,my library of loudspeakers is mighty thin.  Still, I have heard these 2 loudspeakers and these are my thoughts, FWIW. 

Cheers,
Robin

[zybar]

I don't feel comfortable talking about another loudspeaker in Jim's Circle but seeing how it seems to fill this thread and I've actually heard both the HT-3 and Vandy's 5A, I feel the need to express my opinion. WhenI first heard the HT-3, I was blown away. Especially blown away on how seemless the Salk center channel was with the HT-3. It's the 1st and only time I've ever experienced that type of seemlessness from a horizonal center channel. I found the HT-3's to be very dynamic and can easliy fill the room with clear detailed music depending how much power you have available. I loved my time with them.

But I like the Vandy 5A's better even tho I wasn't able to see what they'd do with some power behind them. I found them to be the perfect balance of dynamic, yet a controlled refinement that simply drew me into the music. Musicality seems to ooze from the 5A's with a type of dynamics that doesn't overpower a person. To date they are the best loudspeaker I've heard that complements what I like in a loudspeaker. But then again,my library of loudspeakers is mighty thin.  Still, I have heard these 2 loudspeakers and these are my thoughts, FWIW. 

Cheers,
Robin

Robin,

One of the great things about the Salk Circle is the tolerance of mentioning other vendors and describing the ways in which competing products might be better or equal.

Jim has truly established a safe haven here and it benefits all of us.   

If we time your visit to my place properly, you will get to hear some high powered tubes (Atma-Sphere MA-1's) and ss (latest Spectron amp) on the 5A's, as well as hear the SongTowers drive the L/C/R channels of my HT.

George