[vortrex]

I've been using a nice MM only phono stage (K&K) for quite a while now, and wanted to try a cheap MC cart (103R), so I bought a SUT (A23).  I was amazed and what this $240 cart could do, liking it better than my $1k Zephyr I had been using.  I never had a chance to hear the 103R without the SUT though since I only had MM capability.  Last night I got my new rig setup with a MM/MC phono stage (Chinook) and was able to compare SUT vs non-SUT for the first time.  The difference is not subtle!  With the SUT it's much more dynamic, better bass, organic, 3D, live sounding and without the SUT it's honestly not very interesting at all.  I guess you could say it sounds more like a CD .


 

[watercourse]

Well, my experiences haven't been so cut and dried. While the SUTs I tried out were quieter and the top end a bit less hot, I felt there was a loss in dynamics, and ultimately, felt that treble and bass extension were truncated. Although I have to say the best of the ones I tried were very easy on the ears, but almost overly smooth.

[woodsyi]

It all depends on your situation.  Nothing is absolute in this hobby.

You heard a SUT + MM stage + LOMC  better than a MM stage + MM cart but a different combination may give different result.

In my case, I don't use a SUT because I find I like my MC stage with (built in) active gain more than an MM stage with a passive SUT to go with my LOMC.  The SUT sound to me is smoother but in a darker (not quite veiled) way.   

[galyons]

Active phono heads are generally "Plug 'n' Play". Just match the gain needed. Quality/value/cost relationships play big.

SUT's are a fine combination of matching art & science.  Done well the results can be stunning.  Just tossing in a SUT...not so much!  Like anything else, the quality of the transformers, the gain and impedance matching, the mechanical integrity of the enclosure and the quality of soldering/assembly all play important roles.

Cheers,
Geary

[vortrex]

You heard a SUT + MM stage + LOMC  better than a MM stage + MM cart but a different combination may give different result.

I heard the same cart with and without the SUT on my MM/MC phono stage.

[vortrex]

Well, my experiences haven't been so cut and dried. While the SUTs I tried out were quieter and the top end a bit less hot, I felt there was a loss in dynamics, and ultimately, felt that treble and bass extension were truncated. Although I have to say the best of the ones I tried were very easy on the ears, but almost overly smooth.

Interesting, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I am hearing.

[woodsyi]

I heard the same cart with and without the SUT on my MM/MC phono stage.

It depends on how the MC gain is handled in your phono stage.  For some the last MC boost is an afterthought (or a conscientious choice to cut cost) and not very good as a result.  Thus you may find your external dedicated SUT giving you better result. 

This was the case with EAR 834P.  S&B SUT was better then the tiny ones built into the EAR unit.

[Sonny]

As others have said above, using a SUT is very depending on system matching, that is Cartridge, phono and SUT, as well as cables.  I have not found an SUT that I like for the money that works well with my components.  I currently use a DIY Pass XONO and am very happy with it!  It has both MM and MC and is adjustable to many configurations, including balance outputs!

[Ericus Rex]

Have you messed around with the loading on the phono pre without the SUT?  I think you're putting two different impedences into the phono pre; one is cartridge and cable and the other adds the extra impedence of the SUT.  Not exactly apples and apples comparison esp. when dealing with LOMCs.

[vortrex]

I did.  I'm going to mess with it more this weekend though.  I've got a nasty hum happening now that I am trying to track down while also doing comparisons between both phono stages and SUT, no SUT.

[Rclark]

Almost seems like it depends on how much hearing loss you have whether this sounds good or not.

[TONEPUB]

Well, my experiences haven't been so cut and dried. While the SUTs I tried out were quieter and the top end a bit less hot, I felt there was a loss in dynamics, and ultimately, felt that treble and bass extension were truncated. Although I have to say the best of the ones I tried were very easy on the ears, but almost overly smooth.

This has almost always been my experience as well...

[JoshK]

I find the preferences to be pretty divided amongst vinylphiles.   I'd say try out both yourself if you can.   I have a SUT in my phono, but I haven't compared it to the JFET/Triode cascode, which is the best alternative in theory.

[orientalexpress]

i have 3 SUT currently Peerless 4722 build by  BOB,Hasimotor HM3 and Denon ,i prefered SUT+ MM phonestage over the phono stage with build in gain .Not all SUT sound the same.


lapsan

[Ericus Rex]

And then there are the SUTs that aren't transformers at all.  I borrowed a Graham SUT from my local hi-end megastore and was perplexed by its small size and lack of weight.  At home, I popped the top and saw just a few passive components inside.  It must have been some kind of voltage multiplier.  It did make the signal stronger but also darkened the sound and that was not the direction my system needed to go at that time so I took it back.  I didn't notice any real change in dynamics with this one but I honestly didn't spend too much time with it after quickly deciding my setup sounded better without it.  Anyone else tried this type of SUT?

[neobop]

There is no single cut and dried answer and it's a mistake to think individual results are universal.  In theory, a SUT compromises the signal before it even gets to the phono stage.  Why did some some designers go to great lengths to build an OTL tube amp?  The answer is obvious if you ever compared one.  The same considerations apply to a SUT, even more so. A tranny is just another crappy part (all parts are) in the signal chain that adds distortion and boosts dynamics at the expense of micro detail.

The high end maxim of straight wire and gain - as few parts as possible, really only applies if you have certain quality components, which tend to be solid state in this case of eliminating SUT, and preferences of the listener.  Do you value "natural, dynamic, organic (whatever that means)", or perhaps "fast and harmonically detailed"?  If you have a good match between cart and MM stage with your SUT, perhaps you are getting results that are more pleasing to you than a good MM going straight in.  If you had a different preamp or perhaps a different set of priorities, results could be the opposite. 

Why don't more people use a good SUT? Obviously many do especially with tube preamps with MM only. On the other hand SUT are hard to match up with a particular cart, tend to overload phono stages, can hum like crazy even if you move it around, and trade off detail for dynamics.  I have a tube amp with output trannys, sounds pretty good, so pick your poison.
neo

[ptmconsulting]

Like anything else in vinyl, the SUT has to be matched with the cartridge and the phono stage itself. My cartridge has a very low .22mv output, and my phono stage is a MM type, so I must step it up. I use a Hagerman Piccolo head amp set at its highest 26db gain. All is good, but I am curious about trying a custom designed and built SUT to hear what the difference could be. Looking into the Slagels.

[neobop]

Like anything else in vinyl, the SUT has to be matched with the cartridge and the phono stage itself. My cartridge has a very low .22mv output, and my phono stage is a MM type, so I must step it up. I use a Hagerman Piccolo head amp set at its highest 26db gain. All is good, but I am curious about trying a custom designed and built SUT to hear what the difference could be. Looking into the Slagels.

There's a good article at VE on matching a SUT.  You might find it helpful:
http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml

neo