AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: Daedalus Audio on 1 Oct 2019, 11:15 pm
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I'm thinking about developing a couple of new, smaller speakers. The idea is a two way system based on a 6" driver we can design similar to our 8" driver, and the same Eton tweeter we use in all our systems. The crossover would maintain the highest level of quality but because of being a two way at a higher frequency would be much less expensive. The cabinets would be solid hardwood of course and I have an idea to make them more rounded and less "boxy". My goal is to get the efficiency up around 93-96db with decent power handling and bass extension smooth to about 50hz and a gradual roll off below that.
Overall this would be a refined speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality, plus high sensitivity so it would be well suited for fine tube amps or smaller Class A. Price in the $5k range
Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:
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I'm thinking about developing a couple of new, smaller speakers. The idea is a two way system based on a 6" driver we can design similar to our 8" driver, and the same Eton tweeter we use in all our systems. The crossover would maintain the highest level of quality but because of being a two way at a higher frequency would be much less expensive. The cabinets would be solid hardwood of course and I have an idea to make them more rounded and less "boxy". My goal is to get the efficiency up around 93-96db with decent power handling and bass extension smooth to about 50hz and a gradual roll off below that.
Overall this would be a refined speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality, plus high sensitivity so it would be well suited for fine tube amps or smaller Class A. Price in the $5k range
Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:
I think they sound awesome, but bass closer to 40hz would be better! I know, tradeoffs..... I think these could present a great option for those who want the Daedalus sound for a more approachable price and a potential gateway drug into the lineup.
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I really don't know the condition of the market, or the target price point, but you are right that there are a lot of 6.5" cone-and-dome monitor-sized box speakers out there to choose from, so unless your offering presents something truly unique (which going for a high efficiency like that assuming you can also hit 50 Hz extension sounds kind of out there, in a sea of 85-ish efficient 4-ohm load speakers) you are right in thinking you're entering a very full market.
Considering your target specs, any reason not to just use the eton dome with your existing 4.5" midrange as your two-way? Just eyeballing it, couldn't that get you in to your ballpark specs, save for that you really would be building more of a mini-monitor? In the other direction, is there some reason the eton dome and the 8" woofer wouldn't work together without the 4.5" mid to make a bigger 2-way monitor? Do you think you can make a 6" driver that can meet or beat what you're getting out of the 4.5" driver currently being used? If that is the case, I could see a long-term trickle up/down that might make the project worthwhile even if it doesn't sell huge in that you could make new/updated models of the 3-ways as well, using the new 6" driver. There is, from a business perspective in the speaker-building business, something to be said about having as many of your drivers in-house as possible in regards to long-term production capability and support (you aren't at the mercy of a driver being discontinued and the supply running dry).
Sorry for not offering a straightforward answer, but just some thoughts that came to mind after reading your idea.
Jon
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I think they sound awesome, but bass closer to 40hz would be better! I know, tradeoffs..... I think these could present a great option for those who want the Daedalus sound for a more approachable price and a potential gateway drug into the lineup.
The problem with trying to go flat much below 50hz is that you lose a LOT of sensitivity and speed. Too many people do that already.
Basically most of the music is above 50hz, when you go to a club there is little below that, (kick drum etc is 50-80hz). Many systems artificially boost the 50-80hz range to give the "illusion" of deep bass but it ends up not being accurate or really musical.
Still, this is a big problem, how to get decent bass without sacrificing speed and efficiency? I'm trying to keep my expectations low (50hz) but even at that I'm sure I can get a gradual rolloff so that it is still solid in the 30's. If people really need to have the deep bass and are fine with sacrificing other qualities then I won't even go there....
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I really don't know the condition of the market, or the target price point, but you are right that there are a lot of 6.5" cone-and-dome monitor-sized box speakers out there to choose from, so unless your offering presents something truly unique (which going for a high efficiency like that assuming you can also hit 50 Hz extension sounds kind of out there, in a sea of 85-ish efficient 4-ohm load speakers) you are right in thinking you're entering a very full market.
Considering your target specs, any reason not to just use the eton dome with your existing 4.5" midrange as your two-way? Just eyeballing it, couldn't that get you in to your ballpark specs, save for that you really would be building more of a mini-monitor? In the other direction, is there some reason the eton dome and the 8" woofer wouldn't work together without the 4.5" mid to make a bigger 2-way monitor? Do you think you can make a 6" driver that can meet or beat what you're getting out of the 4.5" driver currently being used? If that is the case, I could see a long-term trickle up/down that might make the project worthwhile even if it doesn't sell huge in that you could make new/updated models of the 3-ways as well, using the new 6" driver. There is, from a business perspective in the speaker-building business, something to be said about having as many of your drivers in-house as possible in regards to long-term production capability and support (you aren't at the mercy of a driver being discontinued and the supply running dry).
Sorry for not offering a straightforward answer, but just some thoughts that came to mind after reading your idea.
Jon
Thanks Jon! All good points and ideas. btw I have looked at using my mid/tweeter combination as a small two way and did not feel it could really be worthwhile. The 8" is too large. One of the issues I have with many two-way systems is that they use to large of a woofer to go too high and there end up being all kinds of phase issues.
I think I could make a great small system but the market may just be too saturated.
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It would be nice if you offer competition to Klipsch and Tekton, you will need flat 8 ohms impedance, 100dB sensitivity and musical 40Hz bass(bass reflex floor standing) to a tube amp friendly, Klipsch price range are lower though.
8'' coaxial driver could be a positive differential and rare in the market today.
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Hey, Lou!
I think from a performance perspective (the kind of thing that would parade around on a spec sheet) the niche would be high efficiency (if you could hit 96db and still get 50Hz out of a monitor-sized box) and a flat 8-ohm load (easy to drive with just about anything). I guess at a glance I really just worry about trying to make something like that, that really stands out at that price point considering all the other options on the market.
It reminds me of the dilemma of the niche companies in the high-end medieval weapons (think swords) market/manufacturing. "Common sense" says that a dagger should cost less than a short-sword, which should cost less than a longsword. Problem is that the materials cost in all the above is negligibly different; the labor costs and production costs are basically the same. This means that for a company that sells longswords at $1000 each, although they can easily make a great dagger, no one would want to pay the $1000 they need to charge for one to make it financially worth making them (unless the profit line is irrelevant and it really gets done as a labor-of-love project). In your case, a few extra board feet of lumber probably isn't much money in the big picture, but it will take just as much time, attention, and care to make a Daedalus-quality cabinet for a small monitor as it does to make say a Muse.
Unless, of course, again you think that your 6" driver could meet or beat your current 4.5". If that is the case - and that 6" driver would then be trickled up the whole line - considering the prices many high-end audiophiles are willing to pay for even sometimes tiny improvements in performance (and the exponential premium thus you are able to charge for that improvement), it could be worth developing the driver mainly as a way to raise the top end of your product line's performance bar up a notch and end up sort of "trickling down" a 2-way that could become a gateway in to Daedalus, although again at the proposed price point, you aren't that far off of a Muse, and a 6" 2-way on a stand takes up a negligibly different amount of floor space as a cabinet for a 8" floorstander...
Jon
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Hi, Lou.
Have you considered taking the Pan design and using a smaller and/or less expensive cabinet rather than pursuing a two-way design? An example is offer a Baltic Birch cabinet.
Alan’s Pans are great sounding speakers. If you could reduce cabinet costs, that design might just satisfy.
Just a thought.
Michael
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A couple of thoughts for Lou:
Like the idea of venturing into compact high efficiency 2-way designs. We've known for decades that the best in-room location to generate bass is opposite of that to generate mids/highs. And with the recent research done by Floyd Toole, we know that the ideal in-room bass solution is to use multiple subs located near the corners. Together that makes the concept of full range floor standing speakers seem rather ancient and their owners trophy collectors.
As frequencies below ~80 Hz don't affect imaging and the Schroeder frequency (where sound proposition changes from waves to rays) is roughly 120 - 200 Hz (room dependent) there is little need to even reach 50 Hz as you propose. OTOH many small woofers can't seem to produce mid/bass body. Wondering what woofers you're looking at as that seems to be the crux of design. On paper the $995/pair Decware DM945 comes to mind as a high efficiency affordable 2-way monitor (but too big for a desktop).
From a modern marketing perspective (thinking of younger, uninitiated consumers - the future of audio) hope the speaker you have in mind is compact enough to comfortably fit on a desktop and for your sake provides a strong taste of Daedalus. Of course WAF dictate speakers that don't dominate a room or demand precise placement to sound good. And a $5000 price tag would be quite daunting if entry level sales are desired.
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Does anyone think this merits development or is the market just over saturated as it is? :scratch:
at that $5K price level, I'd say over saturated.
gab
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Lou,
I would agree with you. Do not sacrifice anything for more bass extension. Perhaps I am unique. Mids and high range are where the emotion always as been for me.
Less boxy speaker design and a more modern look have its own benefits. Aesthetics goes a long way with many of our spouses.
5K for a quality product with the workmanship, materials, and execution. This is more than reasonable for pricing. Compared to what 5K buys you today. This will be affordable to the next generation of audiophiles who themselves will most likely own small properties, small spaces, low overhead costs. Quality, functionality, performance and portability will be key. I think you will hit the marks on this.
Efficiency is important as I see a trend toward tube gear. Daedalus impedance curve is matched by few other manufacturers.
Again my emphasis - do not sacrifice for the bass extension.
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Offer an optional, purpose designed, matching Subwoofer(s) for the 6" 2-way compact-
pawsman
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I've heard great high efficiency 2 way speakers, it was an awesome experience. I would NOT sacrifice the speed, detail, impact and EMOTION that true high efficiency brings to the table. If people want more bass, a sub in the corner, or a pair near each speaker will fill in the bottom nicely. I hear Daedalus makes some nice matching subs, :thumb:
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I agree with Tyson. 50Hz and below can be filled with sub(s) and you can DSP to your heart's content to match the roll off characteristic of the woofers. ADC/DAC loop doesn't seem to affect the "musicality" at frequencies below 80Hz. I DSP my sub signals going into subwoofer amps but not the the mains.
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One could only hope a sub with that new 10 inch driver would be something.
As I have been do lucky to have both 8 and 10 inch driver speakers at the same time. There is just something magical there.
And now you know whats on my wish list.
Alan
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I would make a list of 93-96db speakers in that price range, there are a lot of 2-way speakers but I can't think of many that are very efficient. A friend recently got a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers but I haven't heard them yet. Previously, when listening to efficient speakers at friends homes and at RMAF, the initial excitement with the coherence of a full range driver passes quickly and then my mind can't get past the cupped hands coloration. A speaker with exceptional imaging and accurate non-fatiguing tonality could be a viable contender.
Would these speakers be floorstanding or monitors? A pair of Sonus Faber Ex3ma (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0614/sonus_faber_ex3ma_loudspeaker.htm) cost $41,300, are not very efficient but are beautiful. Maybe $5000 is too low a price? I guess you will find out after making amazing pine prototype mock up designs.
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One could only hope a sub with that new 10 inch driver would be something.
As I have been do lucky to have both 8 and 10 inch driver speakers at the same time. There is just something magical there.
And now you know whats on my wish list.
Alan
Alan,
Wanna buy my Apollos so I can buy a pair of Apollo 11s? :thumb:
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The general rule is:
Small size
High efficiency
Deep bass
Pick 2! :lol:
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Alan,
Wanna buy my Apollos so I can buy a pair of Apollo 11s? :thumb:
Short answer is yes. Might need to rent your house soon after.
A
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Daedalus has been successful in the past without polling AC members. Frankly, we don't have a clue.
With that being said and since you asked for opinions, here's mine -- Daedalus is at the top of my wish list of speakers to buy & try, but they're cost prohibitive. An entry level monitor in your lineup would be great, but at $5,000, it's way too pricey, IMO [NOTE: I paid about $2,500 for my current monitors]. Many high end companies of all kinds have entry level products that are designed to entice new customers who aren't able or willing (at least initially) to dive straight into their higher end models. Whet their appetite and leave them drooling for more.
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Enclosures are need only to make bass, If this speaker will not make bass it dont need a box enclosure just the baffle and the right driver.
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The general rule is:
Small size
High efficiency
Deep bass
Pick 2! :lol:
:thumb:
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Daedalus has been successful in the past without polling AC members. Frankly, we don't have a clue.
With that being said and since you asked for opinions, here's mine -- Daedalus is at the top of my wish list of speakers to buy & try, but they're cost prohibitive. An entry level monitor in your lineup would be great, but at $5,000, it's way too pricey, IMO [NOTE: I paid about $2,500 for my current monitors]. Many high end companies of all kinds have entry level products that are designed to entice new customers who aren't able or willing (at least initially) to dive straight into their higher end models. Whet their appetite and leave them drooling for more.
I agree. $1.5K to $3K budget two way bookshelf.
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I agree with Early B. I currently have 3 sets of monitors in the 2-4K list price range. While the Daedalus line is beautiful, these are pretty much all to big for my set up, (no floor standers). A monitor in this range will be very intriguing.
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I agree. $1.5K to $3K budget two way bookshelf.
Yep, totally agree. Not to mention many of the monitors in this price range, especially factory direct offerings, offer a liberal audition period. Not sure that's an option (audition) with a custom built all wood offering.
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An enclosure protects the wiring and working parts from cats, small fingers, and such. IMO looks more consistent with the price point. A bread board with drivers mounted looks bricolage.
How bout a two-way, 1” Eton, and dual 6” in compound load. Compact with controlled bass. Efficiency might be possible.
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If a box is inevitable, a hybrid box could lower the price, Baffle in real wood and sides in Baltic Birch.
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Aside from Lew and the sound quality of his speakers, to me the components, the cabinetry, the care and the build quality are what define this company. I think you’re diluting the brand by not including them in a lesser cost build. Can you include those in a $5,000 build and still make it worth your while? If so I say make it and the orders will come.
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Lou, can you do something similar to the Muse Studio with a smaller driver (s)? That driver configuration worked very well in a nearfield arrangement, which makes it a good option for monitors. Smaller drivers in that configuration in your excellent cabinetry at 4-5K could be a strong seller.
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Agreed, don't dilute the quality of the work just to appeal to the 3k budget crowd. Make it at the same level of quality as the rest of your speakers, and let the price fall wherever it needs to.
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Agreed, don't dilute the quality of the work just to appeal to the 3k budget crowd. Make it at the same level of quality as the rest of your speakers, and let the price fall wherever it needs to.
We never said compromise on what makes a Daedalus speaker what it is. But, there is no reason why he can't make a small bookshelf that fits in that category we are talking about. Even if it's $3K-$4K. $5K is reaching small tower category with some brands.
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We never said compromise on what makes a Daedalus speaker what it is. But, there is no reason why he can't make a small bookshelf that fits in that category we are talking about. Even if it's $3K-$4K. $5K is reaching small tower category with some brands.
Most speaker manufacturers provide offerings that appeal to a variety of customer segments based on price. Daedalus won't "dilute the brand" or compromise simply because they choose to offer a less expensive speaker option. Salk Sound, for example, offers "entry level" and "high end" speakers. No one capable of purchasing a pair of high end speakers will eschew Salk because they sell speakers in several different price ranges.
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We never said compromise on what makes a Daedalus speaker what it is. But, there is no reason why he can't make a small bookshelf that fits in that category we are talking about. Even if it's $3K-$4K.
I would suggest there may be reasons but it’s not up to me to make that decision.
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We never said compromise on what makes a Daedalus speaker what it is. But, there is no reason why he can't make a small bookshelf that fits in that category we are talking about. Even if it's $3K-$4K. $5K is reaching small tower category with some brands.
By definition, 'entry level' anything is a compromise. In some cases, it's many many compromises.
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Most speaker manufacturers provide offerings that appeal to a variety of customer segments based on price. Daedalus won't "dilute the brand" or compromise simply because they choose to offer a less expensive speaker option. Salk Sound, for example, offers "entry level" and "high end" speakers. No one capable of purchasing a pair of high end speakers will eschew Salk because they sell speakers in several different price ranges.
Let's not crap on Daedalus' section by talking about other brands specifically. But, it does show that you can sell quality speakers (finish and performance) and not totally break the bank. All we are asking for is little smaller speaker that will not break the bank. I am all for options that the newer audiophile can acquire that get's their foot in the door and crave more.
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By definition, 'entry level' anything is a compromise. In some cases, it's many many compromises.
Agree. But, in this case, we are strictly talking size.
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And, going back to read the original post, nowhere does Lou say anything about entry level anything. Based on the initial post, he wants to build a bookshelf speaker to complement the tower speakers he already makes. I seriously doubt he's gonna start using MDF or 'cheaping out' in other ways in order to hit a price point.
I've seen Lou's speakers in person - they are freaking works of art. A big part of that is because they are made out of 100% natural wood. And he has a level of performance that matches the beauty of the woodwork. I suspect that quality of that level simply can't be done for less than $5k or so. Which means, if you want an amazing, reference level bookshelf speaker in both sound and appearance, you're gonna have to pony up the $$.
I think it would be quite silly for Lou to come out with MDF (or baltic birch) based speakers, when his reputation is built on his amazing real wood cabinetry.
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And, going back to read the original post, nowhere does Lou say anything about entry level anything. Based on the initial post, he wants to build a bookshelf speaker to complement the tower speakers he already makes.
Well, what Lou really wanted to know is if we think his speaker monitor concept is worth developing or if the market is too saturated.
I don't think the market is saturated in that price range with high efficiency monitors.
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I'm thinking about developing a couple of new, smaller speakers. The idea is a two way system based on a 6" driver we can design similar to our 8" driver, and the same Eton tweeter we use in all our systems.
The cabinets would be solid hardwood of course and I have an idea to make them more rounded and less "boxy".
Perhaps I missed a clue, but does this necessarily mean that the new speaker would be a monitor or bookshelf speaker? Could a floor standing speaker with a smaller footprint than their other offerings be a possibility? I ask, almost hopefully, as I’m in the floor standing speaker camp.
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I know this will drive up the cost but you may want to think about doing integrated/matching hardwood stands for these which will be beautiful and distinguish them from other monitors currently available. You could do something with inlay that would match the speaker and make for a really pretty combination.
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I know this will drive up the cost but you may want to think about doing integrated/matching hardwood stands for these which will be beautiful and distinguish them from other monitors currently available. You could do something with inlay that would match the speaker and make for a really pretty combination.
Some dollars more and we will get a floorstander which bigger enclosure increase the bass.
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...and you've now described the evolution of the DA-RMa to the Athena, and the Pan to the Muse - hardwood stands and all!
I'm sorry if I started this line of confusion in this conversation, as based on Lou's suggested lower frequency extension target I was just assuming he was talking about a bookshelf monitor-sized speaker. He simply said, "smaller," which now thinking on and taking in to account the target price point as well, a "small" floor standing speaker make a lot more sense. I don't think that changes the assessment of the saturation of the market (now just looking at the variety of 6" cone-and-dome 2-way floor standers), but the dollars for a high-end product make more sense (and I think the earlier discussion concentrating on the notion of a high efficiency flavor of this kind of speaker being a strong market differentiator still holds true too).
Lou, please do correct me if I'm wrong (or basically set the record straight either way).
Jon
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...and you've now described the evolution of the DA-RMa to the Athena, and the Pan to the Muse - hardwood stands and all!
I'm sorry if I started this line of confusion in this conversation, as based on Lou's suggested lower frequency extension target I was just assuming he was talking about a bookshelf monitor-sized speaker. He simply said, "smaller," which now thinking on and taking in to account the target price point as well, a "small" floor standing speaker make a lot more sense. I don't think that changes the assessment of the saturation of the market (now just looking at the variety of 6" cone-and-dome 2-way floor standers), but the dollars for a high-end product make more sense (and I think the earlier discussion concentrating on the notion of a high efficiency flavor of this kind of speaker being a strong market differentiator still holds true too).
Lou, please do correct me if I'm wrong (or basically set the record straight either way).
Jon
I was thinking the same thing.
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I can't imagine how good you could make a small monitor speaker. I woumd personally love to see this design and possibly own a pair eventually
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Did we scare Lou?
He may be tied up with an Audio Fest or something.
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A monitor with optional,matching stands! Sign me up. Man, we come up with some great ideas... :D
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I'm still here! Just taking in the comments, which btw I REALLY appreciate everyone taking the time to help!
To clarify a couple of things: I am not proposing a "bookshelf" system but am looking at two systems, one a stand mount monitor (9"w X 20" tall?) and the other a small floor stander.
Definitely NOT an entry level but a high performing small speaker. I don't do entry level, each of the models I build are for different tastes and applications but the quality level is consistent. The idea is a smaller high end system for people who want the speed and openness of an efficient speaker in a small size without a ton of sonic compromises made to get an illusory bass from a tiny box. Several of you have echoed my sentiment that it is best to use a subwoofer for room filling bass extension than compromise the main system. Spot on! :thumb:
While $5K is still a lot of money, that is what it costs to build this quality level. People who know me realize that I am not getting rich, I charge what it takes to keep the business going, there really isn't a margin. That maybe one reason my customers are so loyal, they know that when they get a $15k-$20k speaker from this old school craftsman they are getting something they would have to pay much more for if from a typical corporation. Bottom line I am trying to make a smaller speaker that because of size and fewer components will be more affordable for those who want extremely high quality.
I am trying to do as much market research as I can because the startup is expensive and takes an enormous amount of time and energy. Unlike others who use off the shelf speakers the heart of my systems are drivers that I have developed and have made for me. That means I have to commit to a large quantity BEFORE I can even build prototypes.
Thanks for all your support and feedback :thumb:
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So we were right: you were proposing a bookshelf!
8)
(I consider a monitor as a large bookshelf to simplify things)
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My listening room is known as our living room to my wife so a smaller Daedalus floor standing speaker has so much appeal. Glad to hear that may be an option in the future!
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A two way stand mount. Not everyone has a dedicated room. Living rooms are multi purpose for most listeners. I like two ways because of simple crossover and great scale and staging. Two ways also allows for top tier parts in crossover. A ribbon tweeter or AMT for me. An optional sub as well.
charles
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A ribbon tweeter or AMT for me. An optional sub as well.
Yep. Pop an AMT in there and those stand mount monitors will quickly become your best seller.
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This is none of my business, but is there any concern with creating a new $5k speaker (or two 😀) that is met with so many orders that you either have to bring on more staff or spend so much time building $5k speakers that it eats up time building/tweaking/creating higher dollar models? Not that bringing on more staff is necessarily a bad thing but with the level of craftsmanship in your speakers it means time spent training, quality control, etc., etc.
Brett
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Don't create a shortage before the damn things are even built.
(Lou's got dollar signs in his eyes now)
:lol:
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Don't create a shortage before the damn things are even built.
(Lou's got dollar signs in his eyes now)
:lol:
I understand the risk I was taking in asking the question, but I would suggest that these speakers be a limited production product offered first to those of us here that are dreaming of a set of smaller Daedalus speakers in our listening room! :thumb:
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I doubt that will be the case, my speakers appeal to a select part of the market which is actually pretty small. For these two-way systems at a $5k price point most people will be looking for a wow factor in the bass, not finesse and grace in the mid bass and highs.
Even if we do need to scale up, this is not a cottage deal, the shop is pretty large and professional with plenty of tooling, plus I have decades of experience training people to be skilled craftsmen. The worry would be that the already long lead time could stretch out, but that is sometimes the cost of getting something really special,eh? :)
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I am considering going ahead with this and possibly offering a discounted pre-order .... sort of crowd funding the R&D
Anybody interested??
of course I will get further with the design etc before offering this... :popcorn:
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Yes, I would be interested and look forward to this evolving. Please keep us abreast of the progress.
Brett
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How about concept drawings?
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Yes sir, Interested!
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Maybe both speakers could be produced a pocket and a floorstander, just a idea.
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C.A.F. is in three weeks. We demand results.
:whip:
(now, get to work or we will taunt you again)
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To clarify a couple of things: I am not proposing a "bookshelf" system but am looking at two systems, one a stand mount monitor (9"w X 20" tall?) and the other a small floor stander.
Cool! Thanks for clearing it up.
Several of you have echoed my sentiment that it is best to use a subwoofer for room filling bass extension than compromise the main system. Spot on! :thumb:
Fair, but I would caution about taking that notion to the extent that some have mentioned earlier - 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz... because in that ballpark of low frequency extension limitation, particularly if you are talking about a premium (priced) product, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any who wouldn't say that for a speaker system using the proposed speaker a subwoofer is no longer optional but a basic requirement. If a subwoofer becomes all but required to be satisfactory, the total system cost now needs to include both what are supposed to be a more entry-point taste of Daedalus and, what, a pair of BOW at the minimum? $5K becomes $10-15K real quick, and then you're back in the ballpark of just going with a Muse (or Muse Studio) as your entry point and being further ahead.
That's why I thought with the efficiency you mentioned targeting, the 50Hz extension target was a very intriguing twist. For what little it is worth, I've swapped out sealed MTM 6.5" 2-ways rolling off at 60Hz for ported TM 6.5" 2-ways (using the same tweeters and midrange drivers) that roll off in the mid-low 50s specifically because the ported speakers could enjoyably be played alone with most of my music, where the sealed speakers just couldn't get it done. It may sound silly (and I know there is probably a line of people who will argue the chestnuts about imperceptible localization below 80Hz, etc.) but I feel not only is that frequency range key to the exercise but how that frequency range is handled - particularly if that is going to be the bottom - really matters.
Ultimately, my post is to say when planning this idea, if the idea is for the speakers to be a starting off point that a customer could build upon and grow over time, making sure a customer could be happy with say 90% of their music with just the two speakers they get to start with until subs and such get in to the budget is important. If they are meant as basically a trade-up demo, or as really part of a turn-key satellite/sub swarm solution from the onset, where and how the low end is handled becomes a lot more flexible, but you'll be losing the real $5K cost of entry if that was a goal.
Jon
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Lou,
I may be interested in such a pair of speakers.
Do you suppose front-ported would be an option (if they will be ported)?
Michael
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Cool! Thanks for clearing it up.
Fair, but I would caution about taking that notion to the extent that some have mentioned earlier - 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz... because in that ballpark of low frequency extension limitation, particularly if you are talking about a premium (priced) product, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any who wouldn't say that for a speaker system using the proposed speaker a subwoofer is no longer optional but a basic requirement. If a subwoofer becomes all but required to be satisfactory, the total system cost now needs to include both what are supposed to be a more entry-point taste of Daedalus and, what, a pair of BOW at the minimum? $5K becomes $10-15K real quick, and then you're back in the ballpark of just going with a Muse (or Muse Studio) as your entry point and being further ahead.
That's why I thought with the efficiency you mentioned targeting, the 50Hz extension target was a very intriguing twist. For what little it is worth, I've swapped out sealed MTM 6.5" 2-ways rolling off at 60Hz for ported TM 6.5" 2-ways (using the same tweeters and midrange drivers) that roll off in the mid-low 50s specifically because the ported speakers could enjoyably be played alone with most of my music, where the sealed speakers just couldn't get it done. It may sound silly (and I know there is probably a line of people who will argue the chestnuts about imperceptible localization below 80Hz, etc.) but I feel not only is that frequency range key to the exercise but how that frequency range is handled - particularly if that is going to be the bottom - really matters.
Ultimately, my post is to say when planning this idea, if the idea is for the speakers to be a starting off point that a customer could build upon and grow over time, making sure a customer could be happy with say 90% of their music with just the two speakers they get to start with until subs and such get in to the budget is important. If they are meant as basically a trade-up demo, or as really part of a turn-key satellite/sub swarm solution from the onset, where and how the low end is handled becomes a lot more flexible, but you'll be losing the real $5K cost of entry if that was a goal.
Jon
I'm shooting for flat to 50hz with a gradual rolloff so still solid down to the 30's, we'll see how close we can get :D
the idea is a stand alone system that when coupled with a sub would be a full range high end system. btw assuming I get flat to 50hz one sub is fine and it doesn't "have" to be one of mine.
as to the port, yes on the smaller system I would definitely use a front port, on the larger mttm system it may be front as well, nit sure yet?
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I'm shooting for flat to 50hz with a gradual rolloff so still solid down to the 30's, we'll see how close we can get :D
Thanks again for answering!
the idea is a stand alone system that when coupled with a sub would be a full range high end system. btw assuming I get flat to 50hz one sub is fine and it doesn't "have" to be one of mine.
Tangent question: what do you think about using your new 10" driver to build a sub? Kind of a mini-BOW? If the driver parameters would be feasible, and you could find a high enough quality plate amp, a sealed 10" sub (or maybe even the 8"?) might be a solid foundation to this new proposed Daedalus system?
Jon
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I'm still here! Just taking in the comments, which btw I REALLY appreciate everyone taking the time to help!
To clarify a couple of things: I am not proposing a "bookshelf" system but am looking at two systems, one a stand mount monitor (9"w X 20" tall?)
Oh, darn. I thought you were thinking about big box Spendor/Harbeth size.
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Thanks again for answering!
Tangent question: what do you think about using your new 10" driver to build a sub? Kind of a mini-BOW? If the driver parameters would be feasible, and you could find a high enough quality plate amp, a sealed 10" sub (or maybe even the 8"?) might be a solid foundation to this new proposed Daedalus system?
Jon
Interesting idea but my 10" and 8" are not optimum for that use. They are tailored for bass/mid-bass not for low bass. The cabinets would be too large. But the big reason I don't really want to go there is that there are a lot of options out there for self powered subs, and many of them do a very good job. I try to create products that fill an needed niche or that have their own unique approach. I resisted building a sub for years, but finally decided to build one without making many of the compromises we usually see. Such as internal XO, plate amps again inside the cabinet. Can you imagine the vibrations going on inside of a subwoofer cabinet? So I designed a sub that has an external electronic XO, that the user would mate with the amp of their choice which would be most suitable for them and that is also very efficient. btw we will be showing the subs (BOW) at CAF next month in our large room with the Apollo11, and we will power them with fairly low power TUBE amps from LTA! :popcorn: I don't recall ever seeing subs at a show powered by tubes?
One of the considerations in designing the drivers and enclosures is a smooth low end roll off. That helps them mate easily and musically with a sub. If we find that the small system I am discussing goes off a cliff after the -3db point that would pretty much kill the idea for me. I am confident though that we can get a smooth extension.
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Oh, darn. I thought you were thinking about big box Spendor/Harbeth size.
we already do big and mid size "boxes", though not the squat shape of Harbeths..
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Interesting idea but my 10" and 8" are not optimum for that use.
Understood; the idea just came to mind thinking it might be an option for folks trying to build a physically small Daedalus system with these new designs that would want to stay within the brand, and for which the BOW cabinet is maybe too big.
I resisted building a sub for years, but finally decided to build one without making many of the compromises we usually see. Such as internal XO, plate amps again inside the cabinet. Can you imagine the vibrations going on inside of a subwoofer cabinet? So I designed a sub that has an external electronic XO, that the user would mate with the amp of their choice which would be most suitable for them and that is also very efficient. btw we will be showing the subs (BOW) at CAF next month in our large room with the Apollo11, and we will power them with fairly low power TUBE amps from LTA! :popcorn: I don't recall ever seeing subs at a show powered by tubes?
I'm probably in a minority that things such a thing matters (...because DSP and more power!...) but I think the high efficiency of the BOW is one of the unsung heroes of that design, and particularly with mains similarly efficient, I think an important part of system matching and synergy between mains and subs.
Trying to not take this thread even further off track from the proposed 2-ways, considering your heritage in pro audio, I'm curious if you've ever considered or prototyped an active crossover for one of your audiophile speaker models? In a Daedalus system including BOW, considering the BOW need a high-quality DSP/crossover unit already anyway, it got me thinking that something like the Danville system Rich Hollis has been working with (which uses high quality DACs and such) could be something worth tinkering with. Looking further around AudioCircle, Bryston seems to be getting some traction with their active setups as of late in their audiophile customer base? (I hope you don't mind as this is a new ideas thread if it goes off script a bit?)
One of the considerations in designing the drivers and enclosures is a smooth low end roll off. That helps them mate easily and musically with a sub. If we find that the small system I am discussing goes off a cliff after the -3db point that would pretty much kill the idea for me. I am confident though that we can get a smooth extension.
I'm presuming you're talking about looking for a smooth and gradual roll off with that statement as a primary goal? The only reason I call to clarify the distinction is because a speaker that goes from an honest 50Hz, with a smooth transition to 30Hz, with a smooth drop off a cliff after that still makes for a pretty satisfying speaker for a lot of people with a lot of music, no? It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater (not to mention a driver you could make a controlled steep roll off with in a compact enclosure space opens up some possibilities in making a solid midrange in a passive 3-way using pretty aggressive crossover slopes, no?)
Jon
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I would definitely be interested. I have searched a long time for a small speaker with high efficiency.
My thoughts are... keep it as small as possible in all dimensions. I myself am constrained in the physical size morethan most. 34h x 8.25w x 12d is the max I can do.
I also second the front port, most people looking for a compact system usually need to push it up close to the wall, that includes the towers.
I would also suggest driver selection that accommodates tube amps with no feedback. As I understand (I'm not technical in this area) this limits damping factor. Most modern drivers use rubber or foam surrounds, which I don't think do great with these systems. I've had better luck with vintage speakers in this area with fabric surrounds.
keep the impedance a minimum of 8 ohms, higher is better.... Again for tube amp.
If you are offering a pre-order discount, please let me know.
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Is there room to supercharge the Athena? To me, I see a strong attraction/need for a modest 3-way floorstander, smaller profile than the Apollo, narrower front baffle, w/ a small footprint that can throw a presentation well beyond its size.
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It looks like the thought recently occurred to another manufacturer (https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/10/new-fleetwood-sound-company-deville.html#more).
I applaud anyone who can make something over 91db, and useful, that's a bookshelf style. Bipolar would be a way to help. You loose a lot just from having no baffle... so even if you start up somewhere fairly high, keeping that isn't easy. And then the driver has to be able to play low? There's a reason this is the least seen speaker in the industry.
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Is there room to supercharge the Athena? To me, I see a strong attraction/need for a modest 3-way floorstander, smaller profile than the Apollo, narrower front baffle, w/ a small footprint that can throw a presentation well beyond its size.
That is pretty much what I am looking at... a smaller high efficiency reference quality speaker. The Athena and Muse are as small as can be done with the 8" driver.
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It looks like the thought recently occurred to another manufacturer (https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/10/new-fleetwood-sound-company-deville.html#more).
I applaud anyone who can make something over 91db, and useful, that's a bookshelf style. Bipolar would be a way to help. You loose a lot just from having no baffle... so even if you start up somewhere fairly high, keeping that isn't easy. And then the driver has to be able to play low? There's a reason this is the least seen speaker in the industry.
Yes this seems like a niche that should be filled, but it won't be inexpensive. :thumb:
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Lou
Would the smaller cabinet have a challenge to make something without a slight resonance "box signature" and maintain that disappearing quality the other Daedalus speakers have? Dampening?
For a SET amp this could be a match made in heaven.
Chamber music, acoustic rock and jazz would sound excellent without a sub.
You meantioned a smaller off-brand single sub (you need a balance between the two speaker monitor which wouldnt have the large Daedalus sound and a goodmedium presence sub. You dont want to overpower it. A JL Audio E110 or E112 would be great - affordable - impactful power and precise tonality. My friend has one with a system that rolls off at 80 hz, My home theatre uses a Fathom F113 - both excellent sounding.
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I know new speaker designs take time, and I’d assume that many never see the light of day, but just wanted to throw out there that a lower priced Daedalus speaker has a lot of appeal to me as I’m beginning to feel the new speaker itch....
Brett
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I know new speaker designs take time, and I’d assume that many never see the light of day, but just wanted to throw out there that a lower priced Daedalus speaker has a lot of appeal to me as I’m beginning to feel the new speaker itch....
Brett
This project is moving ahead BUT it will take time. The first step of designing a driver that is outside the box of the industry is not easy but so far we are having progress!!! That being said I would expect this to take a year or so to get a final product. And While I will try to keep the cost to a minimum I expect it to be in the $4k-$5k range.....
Our standard Muse speaker has been very much refined and for now I am holding the price @ $7850 a pair. So this is a great speaker to get into the Daedalus line and it is in no way a stripped down "entry" level. Actually we are now doing "bundles" with the Muse speaker and the LTA Ultralinear Integrated Amplifier.
https://www.daedalusaudio.com/bundle-muse-lta (https://www.daedalusaudio.com/bundle-muse-lta)