AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: joschmo on 27 Dec 2019, 08:25 pm
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I have never heard open baffle speakers and am wondering about the Betsy vs Spatials, would it be better to start with the Betsy’s from caintuck or used Spatial’s? Not in place to buy new Spatial’s unfortunately.
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Can you move this to the open baffle forum? Thanks
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You have to listen to decide if you like the OB bass to live happy, otherwise I would suggest a 15'' in a big Bass Reflex box for the usual slam in the bass and keep the upper freq in a OB FR driver as Visaton B200 or other as Lii or Nirvana.
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Why are you interested in O.B.s?
O.B. are cheap and easy, but have their drawbacks. Production of non-discrete imaging and a "smeared wall of sound" (the very opposite of the stereo premise). Lack of bass without box reinforcement. And they have a greater need for placement out into the room than other types of speakers. Many are more dynamic.
You should really give them a listen before buying. Randy (proprietor of Betsy) is a stand up guy. The Betsy is a wonderful foot in the O.B. door.
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I would disagree about OB's bass, at least as far as the Spatials are concerned. The M3's (and others) have excellent controlled bass. They DO need to be out in the room, but most speakers do. Tell us where you are located and audition if possible. There is a pair of Spatial's on Ebay, I think for $1400 right now. Good luck!
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O.B. are cheap and easy, but have their drawbacks. Production of non-discrete imaging and a "smeared wall of sound" (the very opposite of the stereo premise). Lack of bass without box reinforcement. And they have a greater need for placement out into the room than other types of speakers.
A smeared wall of sound? A lack of bass? Seriously, have some coffee, that is absolute nonsense!
Really! I have owned numerous types of speakers over the years, Magneplanars, electrostats, horns, full range single drivers, stand mounts, floor standing boxes etc. My experience with OBs is when rightly set up they provided a huge sound stage with the most defined imaging that easily rivals that of any other type of speaker. OB bass is also superior to anything one can get out of a box, and it is not nearly as problematic or in need of room treatments as boxy bass, which also by comparison sounds artificial.
As for placement out into the room, any speaker - even corner horns - sound better when pulled out into the room. The more room a speaker has to breathe, the open and airy it will sound.
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Thanks for all the responses they are appreciated, I’m in the central Connecticut area, had no luck with finding Spatials to demo (tried Clayton and forum) but saw there is someone with Betsy in Connecticut on the decware forum list so going to reach out to him.
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I just got my first OB speaker, the M3 Sapphires from Spatial Audio and I will never go back to a box speaker. Listen to Wood by David Bromberg on the M3 Sapphires and that will make you a believer. I have not heard any box speaker deliver acoustic bass as they can. All the wood instruments sound spectacular. I was listening to a trumpet and classical guitar song -A Thousand Kisses Deep and it has the bass of the guitar mixed with the high of the trumpet that all sounded real. in general, the bass is so defined and integrated into the mid and highs of a song. This is what gives me pleasure. The musicians do not make lose bass and the rhythm of bass being so defined takes the music I like to a new level. I think I was overemphasizing the mid and highs in music because the bass was not as well defined. These speakers change how you listen to music. I just for the fun of it put an equalizer into my system to play with the mid - tweeter in the M3's. I can get any sound I want with these speakers given no crossover. You want more mid-range fully integrated and coherent? The M3's can do that and still keep the best bass in the house.
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Why are you interested in O.B.s?
O.B. are cheap and easy, but have their drawbacks. Production of non-discrete imaging and a "smeared wall of sound" (the very opposite of the stereo premise). Lack of bass without box reinforcement. And they have a greater need for placement out into the room than other types of speakers.
C’mon Jeff, I have seen you spout this nonsense many times, frankly you are wrong and misleading people. All speakers have drawbacks but OB done right are none of the things you list. BTW, most speakers benefit from being pulled out from the wall.
Best,
Ed
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I agree that JLMs post is nonsensical. That said, I disagree with pulling corner horns out into the room. That’s a sure fire recipe for bad sound.
Shakey
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BTW, I invite JLM over for an audition of the X3 and a nice dish of crow.
Shakey
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I agree that JLMs post is nonsensical. That said, I disagree with pulling corner horns out into the room. That’s a sure fire recipe for bad sound.
Shakey
I did say “most”. I would not pull speakers designed to be against a wall or corner out into the room.
Best,
Ed
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That was for wind chaser, not you.
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Thanks for all the responses they are appreciated, I’m in the central Connecticut area, had no luck with finding Spatials to demo (tried Clayton and forum) but saw there is someone with Betsy in Connecticut on the decware forum list so going to reach out to him.
Joschmo I’m getting my M3’s on Monday. I’m about a half hour from Providence RI/Newport
If you’re ever up in the area, I’d be happy to let you listen.
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I agree that JLMs post is nonsensical. That said, I disagree with pulling corner horns out into the room. That’s a sure fire recipe for bad sound.
Well until you’ve tried it, you just don’t know. I have tried it so I do know! :eyebrows:
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Well I tried it too, and I know as well.
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Tell me about it.
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Thanks for all the responses they are appreciated, I’m in the central Connecticut area, had no luck with finding Spatials to demo (tried Clayton and forum) but saw there is someone with Betsy in Connecticut on the decware forum list so going to reach out to him.
Not sure the Spatials, but in my experience with the Carver Amazing the minimum room size are 3.15m wide, 3.50 depth, no toe-in, no tilt back. If you have this room or larger worth to try a Dipole.
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Tell me about it.
I owned khorns for two years. Pulling them into the room kills the sound. Yeah, you’ll get more of the audiophile “Tom Foolery” that pushes all the hot buttons. But you need that corner to complete the folded horn. Without it you miss an octave of bass and the tonal response is askew. Now Cornwalls and Cornscalas will sound better away from walls. Different animal, not horn loaded below the midrange.
So if all you care about is soundstage depth, imaging, blah, blah, blah....., then by all means, put your corner horns in the middle of the room if that blows up your skirt.
Shakey
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Why are you interested in O.B.s?
O.B. are cheap and easy, but have their drawbacks. Production of non-discrete imaging and a "smeared wall of sound" (the very opposite of the stereo premise). Lack of bass without box reinforcement. And they have a greater need for placement out into the room than other types of speakers. Many are more dynamic.
You should really give them a listen before buying. Randy (proprietor of Betsy) is a stand up guy. The Betsy is a wonderful foot in the O.B. door.
I thought the review and demo linked below are worth looking at if you want info from people who have experianced the speakers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs
https://audio-head.com/spatial-audio-debuts-m3-sapphire-alongside-linear-tube-audio-lampizator-innuos-and-anticables-caf-2019/
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Have heard dipoles (mostly O.B.) several times, including the Spatials over the past 20 years. Some just don't like the Kool-Aid.
Please keep an open mind.
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I’d like to see the reception I’d get if I went in another manufacturers forum and took a big shit like you have. We are all welcome to post in any forum on the site, but most have better etiquette than you.
Shakey
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Sorry if I offended. My style, from decades around construction, is to be very direct and clear, perhaps forceful.
I asked a simple question, one that few others ask, but an important one that no one else has yet addressed. Are not questions the beginning of wisdom?
I stated my opinions, based on nearly 50 years at this, and have been around the block. Hopefully everyone realizes that Audio Circle, like most internet sites, is 90% shared opinions and 10% facts. So take it all with a grain of salt.
We've all seen fads, even cultish followings come and go before where rabid fans can't see or hear straight. A couple of them have already been mentioned in this thread. Typical audiophiles have just enough technical knowledge and an educated ear to get in seduced into running far afield.
One of my good friend's favorite sayings is, "There is no perfect speaker." BTW his guidance was the inspiration behind Hawthorne Audio (O.B. speakers). I agree with him.
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(My style, from decades around construction, is to be very direct and clear, perhaps forceful)
Nope, again I disagree, as I also have worked decades in construction, blaming your vocation is a cop out--that's just who you are.
But you are entitled to ANY opinion you may have, forceful or otherwise.
I (and others) couldn't disagree more with your statements. Hopefully the guy that posted will make his own decision based on his own ears.
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I know there are no perfect speakers. And I’ve been at this a long time too, just so you know. But the way you describe an OB speaker is just contrary to what I’ve experienced. And I’ve owned two OB designs and three pairs of Maggies. None were remotely close to your description. It really just sounds like you have an axe to grind. It’s ok if you don’t like spatial audio speakers, doesn’t offend me in the least. But if you heard what you say you did, something was surely amiss.
IMHO, YMMV, and all the other disclaimers apply here..............
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I owned khorns for two years. Pulling them into the room kills the sound... Without it you miss an octave of bass and the tonal response is askew.
Hey Shakey,
No, it doesn’t kill the sound. :duh:
I also owned a folded horns for two years and tried several positions in two different rooms. The ONLY reason for placing a so-called corner horn in a corner is for bass re-enforcement, but in my experience there are far better ways of addressing that issue than shoving a speaker into the worst possible location.
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Please keep an open mind.
Jeff, I’m sure you’ve been into this hobby as long as anyone, but if the only impression you got from hearing OBs over the years is a smeared wall of sound, it just speaks to the fact that in all these years you’ve never heard an OB set up half way intelligently.
Far too many people in this hobby are too lazy and ignorant when it comes to coupling their speakers into the room. Some follow cookie cut formulas like Cardas or the simple equilateral triangle arrangement, which are both good “starting” points, but certainly not the last word on optimum ideal placement. In order to get a things to the highest level you have to listen carefully and experiment; that requires time and patience. I spent two months before I finalized my set up and it was well worth the effort.
Most people seem to unpack their speakers and merely place them where they look good. They might spend anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours moving them around a bit and that’s as far as it goes. I’m not saying it takes two months to get it right, but if one has an open mind as you say, and isn’t too lazy there’s far more potential waiting to be discovered. Even the most knowledgeable people I know will spend at least a few days looking to get it right.
I guarantee you the sound stage and imaging I get is at least every bit as precise as you get out of your commissioned single drivers. And as for bass, I dare say my OB bass is superior to anything you get out your boxes. You’re welcome to hear for yourself.
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Hey Shakey,
No, it doesn’t kill the sound. :duh:
I also owned a folded horns for two years and tried several positions in two different rooms. The ONLY reason for placing a so-called corner horn in a corner is for bass re-enforcement, but in my experience there are far better ways of addressing that issue than shoving a speaker into the worst possible location.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Most other speakers, yes, out into the room. Klipschorns even with enclosed backs are still going to sound better in close proximity to a corner. Even in this position they can float an image into the room rivaling other conventional speakers.
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This thread reminds me of one a year ago when Jeff trashed the Bryston Active speaker system in the Bryston circle:
+1! Passives sound muddy, muted, and dull compared to my JBL 708P 2-way monitors (constant directivity tweeter, 8" ported woofer, lots of built in controls, $4000/pair USD MSRP). At age 62 they are my "last great" speakers.
The Bryston active approach that uses external amps is crude, expensive, complex, and bulky, so yes I don't see it gaining wide spread popularity. But even typical active monitors with built-in amps and no speaker cables may never become the norm for audiophiles to satisfy the urge to keep hunting, have a large trophy case (equipment rack full of big expensive gear) to show off, and the general human tendency for lust. Typical "all-in-one" active monitors don't address any of those traits.
Note that not all active speakers use DSP. Analog versions of DSP would be massively inefficient (big, expensive, power hungry, and have limited abilities). The trend now for all digital systems is to go to software based DSP (such as REW or Dirac Live) where you have graphics and full control.
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These forums would be mighty quiet without the ' spirited discussions '. :D
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I have both OB and mid-tower bass reflex.
They both give the same soundstage.
- The sound is formed behind speakers
- When I look one speaker, nothing seem to come from there (almost)
- The depth go to the front wall and and inside (illusion).
- I ear the different layer in the music
You can't compare 6 inch driver to 15 inch driver. They fill the room differently, they focus differently, they not snap at the same frequency ...
With OB, I have a better sense of "live music" and never have exagerated bass note like box speaker. With EQ you can fix a part of it but the music will never be "as free" as played through OB.
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''exagerated bass'' is a bless few can afford in this era of pocket monitors.
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Here’s another way to wrap ones head around the sound of OB's vs box speakers. Listen to closed back headphones and then open back. As with loudspeakers the difference is apparent and most people prefer the sound of the open back.
The idea that OB bass is inferior or the sound is smeared is not true at all. It’s quite the opposite, really. Bass is much cleaner and loads the room much better. The soundstage opens up and everything sounds more natural.
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Here’s another way to wrap ones head around the sound of OB's vs box speakers. Listen to closed back headphones and then open back. As with loudspeakers the difference is apparent and most people prefer the sound of the open back.
The idea that OB bass is inferior or the sound is smeared is not true at all. It’s quite the opposite, really. Bass is much cleaner and loads the room much better. The soundstage opens up and everything sounds more natural.
Very well put Wind Chaser. I actually used the open back headphone comparison when I was on the phone with Clayton. I have some good closed back headphones and their bass does sound more reinforced compared to my open backs. But I typically get more natural detailed bass from equivalent priced open backs. And the sound stage on the open backs is much better. My M3S speakers however have bass like a high end open back headphone. I am getting meatiness and powerful dynamic punch and thrust. Also getting voluptuous enveloping bass when the music calls for it. Box speakers that I have heard at the price of the M3S and considerably higher that do an admirable job with bass still have significant issues with smearing from the vibrationally energized box. In fact I heard a $25k pair of speakers at RMAF from a highly regarded brand that makes their own drivers that had a very open sound stage in the mids and highs but when some powerful upright bass joined the mix everyone turned their head directly to the speakers. The bass was congested anchored to the box. Part of what made it so noticeable was the sound stage contrast of the bass compared openness of mids and highs. Now I have heard tower box speakers that do well in this regard but they are usually very expensive (e.g. Rockports, Magico). I also have a pair of monitors, Usher Beryllium Dancers, that do a good job detaching the bass from the box. They have very detailed good quality bass. These Ushers benefit from having a smaller box which is very heavy and rigid. But still the bass on the M3S sounds just as detailed, much more open, more properly to scale, much more powerful, much fuller and enveloping.
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I received my delivery confirmation for my M3's for Friday. :D I am new to OB's and am very excited to hear what you all are talking about. I have had Vandersteens and Aerials and look forward to doing some comparisons. Thanks for all your great comments and Happy New Year!
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Congrats. I think you are going to be very pleased.
Shakey
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Thanks Shakey,
Great way to start the new year! I’ll post some pics. I think the greatest thing about this other than the listening is having great people to share this with. Happy New Year Everyone!
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Thanks Shakey,
Great way to start the new year! I’ll post some pics. I think the greatest thing about this other than the listening is having great people to share this with. Happy New Year Everyone!
Which finish did you get?
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I'm not an open baffle expert, but I've had Hawthorne Trio Sterling Silver SSI speakers [that's a full coaxial and TWO augie sub-woofers for EACH speaker] open baffle speakers for a few years now. I've owned at least a dozen to twenty variations of floorstanders, 2 ways, monitors, etc. over the decades. Owning a pair of Klipsch Fortes with a tremendously customized crossover that I built really taught me the value of great bass and DYNAMICS.
I knew my next speaker would have to present such dynamics. Well, I can say the Hawthorne open baffle speakers present dynamic contrasts in a thrilling manner. The bass is deep, powerful and involving in a way I've never heard before. I think open baffle bass needs to be heard to be appreciated.
I hope to follow this thread and everyone's OB adventures.
Good luck. Enjoy your speakers in the new DECADE!
Thank you to everyone at AUDIOCIRCLE.
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Snowpuppy
I asked Clayton to give me a lighter Sepele to match my teak audio rack. I’m really excited to see the look!
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I received my delivery confirmation for my M3's for Friday. :D I am new to OB's and am very excited to hear what you all are talking about. I have had Vandersteens and Aerials and look forward to doing some comparisons. Thanks for all your great comments and Happy New Year!
As an Aerial owner I would very much like to hear your comparison in SQ between Spatial & Aerial (if not here, then please PM.)
Thanks!
- DeeCee
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Snowpuppy
I asked Clayton to give me a lighter Sepele to match my teak audio rack. I’m really excited to see the look!
I think you will be very please with the way they look and even more please with the way they sound. Your speakers will probably look a lot like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs&t=347s
Clayton said this room was dark and that they were a little lighter than the videos and pics show. By the way I found the track played in the video on Tidal. Sounded great on my M3S. Just like the guy said her voice hung magically in the air between the speakers and the bass imaged nicely as well. Very good recording and the rather large M3S just disappeared.
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DeeCee
I had the 10ts and was very impressed with them much more than my Vandersteen’s.
I’ll definitely post pics and first impressions.
Snowpuppy
Thanks, I’m hoping they’ll compliment my new audio rack.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202416)
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DeeCee
I had the 10ts and was very impressed with them much more than my Vandersteen’s.
I’ll definitely post pics and first impressions.
Snowpuppy
I own the original 7s (10Ts smaller brothers when they only had 3 speakers in their line) that are currently way too large for my current listening room but I could never give up on their sound... I'm fairly familiar with OB speakers and listened to a couple of Audio Artistry (Dvorak and Vivaldi) LONG ago - most impressive!
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DeeCee
I had the 10ts and was very impressed with them much more than my Vandersteen’s.
I’ll definitely post pics and first impressions.
Snowpuppy
Thanks, I’m hoping they’ll compliment my new audio rack.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202416)
That looks like an excellent audio rack. Looks to have good component isolation and vibration control. Very attractive. The quality of the equipment rack is an important component itself that is often neglected.
I heard a pair of Aerials about 20 years ago and was very impressed by them. The founders of Aerial probably oversaw the production of my first pair of loudspeakers. A pair of ADS L520 that I bought in the early 80s. I still own these speakers and they still sound good. My Dad had a pair of the much larger L1230s. ADS were my favorite speakers back then.
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I heard a pair of Aerials about 20 years ago and was very impressed by them. The founders of Aerial probably oversaw the production of my first pair of loudspeakers. A pair of ADS L520 that I bought in the early 80s. I still own these speakers and they still sound good. My Dad had a pair of the much larger L1230s. ADS were my favorite speakers back then.
Hmmm. Another odd coincidence: WAY back the ADS L1230s were my "dream" speakers (i.e., HS student who could no way afford them.)
I'm hoping that audiosaurusrex will hate the Spatials, so I won't be jealous... :lol:
No way I can afford anything beyond vintage nowadays or inexpensive high bang per buck stuff. *sigh*
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Is that rack a Timbernation product. I have one and love it though heavy as hell with the 2 and 3 inch maple shelves.
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Is that rack a Timbernation product. I have one and love it though heavy as hell with the 2 and 3 inch maple shelves.
I was wondering the same thing. If I ever get a new rack, Timbernation would definitely be what I get!
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Yes DeeCee and Jack
Timbernation, Chris did a great job and I am really impressed with the quality.
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Just my two cents. I have owned and or heard many speakers of all types over the years as I used to work as a high end audio dealer in the 90's and have always been around audio. To me and some of the people that have good ears for sound, I really think it is the years of hearing box speakers and live rock concerts that have slow, overly bloated, one note style bass that people get so used to it that when they hear a real live setting or speakers like the Spatials they think they have no bass. In reality the bass is very fast on these speakers, in fact much quicker without hanging sound than other speakers. That allows the bass to better integrate with the mids and highs like a real live setting that is set up right should be. Anyone that has heard a live performance that is not overly processed or amplified and boosted will know that I am talking about. Most people that have only heard reproducted music on cheap systems or cheap headphones their whole lives kind of freak out when they here a real bass drum on a drum set for the first time because the bass is fast and actually has a tone to it. It is not a boom or thump that is like a lot of speakers and mastering portray it to be. I have played in bands and played instruments most of my life and to me the Spatials reproduce bass drum and bass guitar better than any other speaker even close to their price class. Some people that listen to electronic music might have issues with these speakers because the music they listen to itself has non instrumental electronically produced bass that is not instrumentally natural anyway but that is a whole other topic
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Yes, and they also do Bass trombone, Bass Clarinet, Tuba,Low Piano, and Contrabass Sax better than anything I have ever herd.
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Ditto on the bass response on OB speakers. While my X3s don't have the output or depth of my old X-frames, they sure do seem to have more texture and definition. I'm very happy with the bottom end on these things.
Shakey
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Just my two cents. I have owned and or heard many speakers of all types over the years as I used to work as a high end audio dealer in the 90's and have always been around audio. To me and some of the people that have good ears for sound, I really think it is the years of hearing box speakers and live rock concerts that have slow, overly bloated, one note style bass that people get so used to it that when they hear a real live setting or speakers like the Spatials they think they have no bass. In reality the bass is very fast on these speakers, in fact much quicker without hanging sound than other speakers. That allows the bass to better integrate with the mids and highs like a real live setting that is set up right should be. Anyone that has heard a live performance that is not overly processed or amplified and boosted will know that I am talking about. Most people that have only heard reproducted music on cheap systems or cheap headphones their whole lives kind of freak out when they here a real bass drum on a drum set for the first time because the bass is fast and actually has a tone to it. It is not a boom or thump that is like a lot of speakers and mastering portray it to be. I have played in bands and played instruments most of my life and to me the Spatials reproduce bass drum and bass guitar better than any other speaker even close to their price class. Some people that listen to electronic music might have issues with these speakers because the music they listen to itself has non instrumental electronically produced bass that is not instrumentally natural anyway but that is a whole other topic
Yes to" that allows the bass to better integrate with the mids and highs like a real live setting that is set up right should be" I am convinced that you have to rethink what music really sounds like after listening to these speakers vs what you thought was great sound with box speakers. Tidal has a playlist that is called Ultimate System Testers made by Bowers & Wilkins for speaker testing. It has a diversity of music that will put any speaker to the test, pure bass examples to the complex sound stage. I have listened to this on multiple sets of speakers now and the M3's shine because the bass is so integrated into the music and this gives me what I want from the music.
https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/abe0bf4b-2f61-4601-be0a-c24fa8e6c521
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I really think it is the years of hearing box speakers and live rock concerts that have slow, overly bloated, ...In reality the bass is very fast on these speakers, in fact much quicker without hanging sound than other speakers. That allows the bass to better integrate with the mids and highs like a real live setting that is set up right should be.
You spot on.