AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: avahifi on 18 Dec 2009, 04:04 pm
-
A Fresh Approach to Reproducing Music -- the Vision of Frank Van Alstine
Presenting the AVA Vision DAC, our new ultra modern and versatile digital to analog converter with unsurpassed musicality.
Ultra modern - - - the AVA Vision DAC is an outstanding implementation of the brand new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set. After many hours of testing, prototypes, and listening, we are certain that this Wolfson device provides even higher musical quality than their previous 8740 and 8741 versions. Yes, we built, examined, and prototyped all three versions of the great Wolfson chips here first. It has been a three year process to bring you the best possible DAC, and we think the results will tell you immediately that it has been worth the wait.
Versatile - - - the AVA Vision DAC directly accepts 44K, 48K, and 96K bit rates. It can be user adjusted to accept 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply moving one internal jumper.
Unsurpassed musicality - - - we have designed a brand new analog filter and audio output section unlike, and better than, anything done before. The design has a 2000 volt per microsecond slew rate and less than 0.0003 percent harmonic distortion. There is no feedback in this circuit at all. There is no voltage amplification so there is no need for tubes, transistors, or op-amps, and none are used. These amazing new circuits are based upon an amazing new current amplifier device with a quarter ampere current drive and a standard (resistively set) 560 ohm output impedance. It will drive any rational load, long cables, and passive controls with ease.
The musical result is outstanding and surprising. It sounds more musical than our best previous solid state, vacuum tube, and vacuum tube hybrid DAC designs! It makes them all sound pale and flat in comparison. We did not expect that. The Vision DAC is so amazingly musical, dynamic, transparent, and easy to listen to long term that we must sadly discontinue our current Ultra, Transcendence Eight, and Insight series DACs. They can no longer stand up as the best we can do.
Two new models are available.
The basic Vision DAC. This basic model provides the best possible musicality at the lowest possible price. It has one coax digital input and stereo analog output set, all executed with gold plated RCA jacks. Any previous AVA DAC, solid state, vacuum tube, or hybrid, can be updated to the basic Vision DAC.
The premium Vision EC DAC. The Vision EC DAC provides multiple digital inputs. Two Toslink optical inputs and two RCA Jack coax inputs that are switchable from the front panel. This allows connection to any available sources, including the optical digital output of your computer at the bit rates mentioned above. Note that a USB input is not provided because high bit rate USB computer output requires software driver programs, and we simply do not want to get into the software support business. The optical inputs provide the necessary computer interface. Of course, diehards can add a separate USB to optical or USB to coax converter box if they desire (available inexpensively from many sources).
Great Options are available.
The Vision EC DAC is available with Balanced Line Outputs option using XLR connectors. This is a true balanced line connection, using four separate analog filters and audio output circuits internally.
Both the basic Vision DAC and Vision EC DAC are available with a built in extra gain stage option for those using a passive preamp or volume control in their system. This will provide more gain for making sure your passive preamp system will play as loudly as you could ever want
Upgrades to all existing AVA DAC models to the basic Vision DAC are possible. This is accomplished by recycling your finished chassis. Note that recycled chassis will not allow the multiple input and balanced line output options as we had to redesign our DAC chassis to provide these functions that many have requested. You save $250 when we install the complete new Vision DAC circuit set in any existing AVA DAC, solid state, tube, or hybrid, big chassis or small. Your net cost is $849.
All you need to have astonishing CD musicality is a good-tracking CD or DVD/CD player with a coaxial digital output and the basic new Vision DAC. A single interconnect cable goes from the digital out on your CD or DVD player (bypassing all of its compromised converter and analog circuits) to the digital input on the Vision DAC. Connect the left and right line outputs from the Vision DAC to a set of line inputs on your preamp or receiver and prepare to be amazed.
If your disc player or computer has an optical output, then the multiple input Vision EC DAC is for you. The Vision EC provides two optical and two coax switchable inputs. Both models are available factory wired only, 17" wide, 12" deep, 3.5" high, 12 pounds.
The Basic Vision DAC is available Right Now. The price is $1099.00 plus $30 shipping anywhere in the continental USA. The Vision EC with multiple inputs will be available in about 6 weeks. The Vision EC price is $1299. The XLR balanced line output option is $200. The extra gain stage option (available in either version) is $150.
Listen and you will hear. We think the Vision DAC, the vision of Frank Van Alstine and friends, dedicated to the most musical audio reproduction possible, has been realized here with the best sound from any digital source you have ever experienced. Our normal three year parts and labor warranty and 30 day satisfaction guarantee on new equipment applies of course. Our three year warranty applies to upgrades too, but not the satisfaction guarantee.
Frank Van Alstine
-
Wowza! :o This I gotta hear... :drool:
-
People have been asking what I want for Christmas aa
-
Nice Frank. Great price and I'm sure a great value.
-
A Fresh Approach to Reproducing Music -- the Vision of Frank Van Alstine
Presenting the AVA Vision DAC, our new ultra modern and versatile digital to analog converter with unsurpassed musicality.
Ultra modern - - - the AVA Vision DAC is an outstanding implementation of the brand new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set. After many hours of testing, prototypes, and listening, we are certain that this Wolfson device provides even higher musical quality than their previous 8740 and 8741 versions. Yes, we built, examined, and prototyped all three versions of the great Wolfson chips here first. It has been a three year process to bring you the best possible DAC, and we think the results will tell you immediately that it has been worth the wait.
Versatile - - - the AVA Vision DAC directly accepts 44K, 48K, and 96K bit rates. It can be user adjusted to accept 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply moving one internal jumper.
Unsurpassed musicality - - - we have designed a brand new analog filter and audio output section unlike, and better than, anything done before. The design has a 2000 volt per microsecond slew rate and less than 0.0003 percent harmonic distortion. There is no feedback in this circuit at all. There is no voltage amplification so there is no need for tubes, transistors, or op-amps, and none are used. These amazing new circuits are based upon an amazing new current amplifier device with a quarter ampere current drive and a standard (resistively set) 560 ohm output impedance. It will drive any rational load, long cables, and passive controls with ease.
The musical result is outstanding and surprising. It sounds more musical than our best previous solid state, vacuum tube, and vacuum tube hybrid DAC designs! It makes them all sound pale and flat in comparison. We did not expect that. The Vision DAC is so amazingly musical, dynamic, transparent, and easy to listen to long term that we must sadly discontinue our current Ultra, Transcendence Eight, and Insight series DACs. They can no longer stand up as the best we can do.
Two new models are available.
The basic Vision DAC. This basic model provides the best possible musicality at the lowest possible price. It has one coax digital input and stereo analog output set, all executed with gold plated RCA jacks. Any previous AVA DAC, solid state, vacuum tube, or hybrid, can be updated to the basic Vision DAC.
The premium Vision EC DAC. The Vision EC DAC provides multiple digital inputs. Two Toslink optical inputs and two RCA Jack coax inputs that are switchable from the front panel. This allows connection to any available sources, including the optical digital output of your computer at the bit rates mentioned above. Note that a USB input is not provided because high bit rate USB computer output requires software driver programs, and we simply do not want to get into the software support business. The optical inputs provide the necessary computer interface. Of course, diehards can add a separate USB to optical or USB to coax converter box if they desire (available inexpensively from many sources).
Great Options are available.
The Vision EC DAC is available with Balanced Line Outputs option using XLR connectors. This is a true balanced line connection, using four separate analog filters and audio output circuits internally.
Both the basic Vision DAC and Vision EC DAC are available with a built in extra gain stage option for those using a passive preamp or volume control in their system. This will provide more gain for making sure your passive preamp system will play as loudly as you could ever want
Upgrades to all existing AVA DAC models to the basic Vision DAC are possible. This is accomplished by recycling your finished chassis. Note that recycled chassis will not allow the multiple input and balanced line output options as we had to redesign our DAC chassis to provide these functions that many have requested. You save $250 when we install the complete new Vision DAC circuit set in any existing AVA DAC, solid state, tube, or hybrid, big chassis or small. Your net cost is $849.
All you need to have astonishing CD musicality is a good-tracking CD or DVD/CD player with a coaxial digital output and the basic new Vision DAC. A single interconnect cable goes from the digital out on your CD or DVD player (bypassing all of its compromised converter and analog circuits) to the digital input on the Vision DAC. Connect the left and right line outputs from the Vision DAC to a set of line inputs on your preamp or receiver and prepare to be amazed.
If your disc player or computer has an optical output, then the multiple input Vision EC DAC is for you. The Vision EC provides two optical and two coax switchable inputs. Both models are available factory wired only, 17" wide, 12" deep, 3.5" high, 12 pounds.
The Basic Vision DAC is available Right Now. The price is $1099.00 plus $30 shipping anywhere in the continental USA. The Vision EC with multiple inputs will be available in about 6 weeks. The Vision EC price is $1299. The XLR balanced line output option is $200. The extra gain stage option (available in either version) is $150.
Listen and you will hear. We think the Vision DAC, the vision of Frank Van Alstine and friends, dedicated to the most musical audio reproduction possible, has been realized here with the best sound from any digital source you have ever experienced. Our normal three year parts and labor warranty and 30 day satisfaction guarantee on new equipment applies of course. Our three year warranty applies to upgrades too, but not the satisfaction guarantee.
Frank Van Alstine
How do I go about ordering one - so i will get it before christmas day
thanks
smargo
-
SMARGO, call me right now at 651-330-9871 with your MC or Visa info and I will get a new basic Vision DAC built for you and shipped UPS 2 Day on Monday.
The shipping will be more than our standard $30 for the fast delivery service, but probably less than $75.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Nice, Frank!
Great name, too!
I think that I have an Insight DAC that will benefit from an upgrade.
-
the AVA Vision DAC directly accepts 44K, 48K, and 96K bit rates. It can be user adjusted to accept 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply moving one internal jumper.
The Vision EC DAC provides multiple digital inputs. Two Toslink optical inputs and two RCA Jack coax inputs that are switchable from the front panel.
Nice job!
What about 88.2 and 176.2 kHz digital signals?
Also, does that mean even the basic version will sound the same as EC version if using RCA output and using same coax digital input? In fact, without the need for digital input switching circuitry, the basic version may even have a simpler path? :thumb:
-
It should work on 88K and 176K too, but has not been tested on that.
Frank
-
Both the basic Vision and Vision EC sound the same.
The signal path is not more complex on the EC, the input switching functions are done with logic circuits built into the DAC board itself. The external switch just tells the logic which of the four built in inputs to select.
The only circuits that necessarily are more complex are the separate optical acceptor circuits combined with the toslink jacks themselves at the back panel. This would be true of any optical input DAC circuit. You have to get the optical signal back to electical somewhere.
Frank
-
You mentioned the possibility of a gain stage. What is the voltage output of the standard vision, and what would the output voltage be of the upgraded one?
Look forward to learning more about this DAC, and seeing some of the reviews. Saving up for a shiny new DAC, but still a little ways off...
-
Just what I need to complete my 2 channel system. I'll be ordering one soon.
-
The design has a 2000 volt per microsecond slew rate and less than 0.0003 percent harmonic distortion.
You sold me on that very low HD! :lol:
-
For me it was the fast slew rate.
Steve
-
It can be user adjusted to accept 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply moving one internal jumper.
Frank,
Care to eloborate on this point? Would I have a choice of either 192/24 OR the lower rates based on the internal jumper setting (but not all settings available at once)?
-
Rather then a jumper, how about a switch in the back for the high-rez folks?
Wayner
-
Great job Frank & Co. :thumb: When work picks back up will have to check out an EC. Eliminates the need for the Inday box. One less piece in the chain, and one less remote to lose track of. :D
Keep up the good work, and Merry Christmas/Happy New Year/Happy Holidays to all :thumb: :xmas: :beer:
-
The voltage out standard is about 2V peak to peak with all bits turned on. The optional gain stage can be set about anywhere, but we suggest a gain of 5 would be about right to allow plenty of level with a passive volume control even into inefficient speakers and a low gain power amp.
Regarding the high bit rate jumper. To effect this, one must first turn the AC power off, then install the jumper, and then turn it back on again. A bit much to ask for a simple external switch to do. It is an either/or configuration. Either up to 96K standard, or high bit rate, but not both at the same time. If all at the same time was feasable, we would not need the jumper.
By the way two units sold this morning herein. One new unit and one Insight SL preamp upgrade. :)
I can still build another one for Christmas delivery if I receive your order today.
Regards,
Frank
-
WOW!!! Makes the Insight+ DAC sound "pale and flat" in comparison?! My goodness I am going to have to hear this.
:green: :thumb: :drool:
-
When work picks back up will have to check out an EC. Eliminates the need for the Inday box. One less piece in the chain, and one less remote to lose track of.
If I understand correctly, the input selection will be by front panel switch and not by remote control.
Steve
-
Steve,
Correct. The Vision EC DAC will have a 4 position selector switch on the front panel to select either of the 2 coax or 2 toslink connectors. This is also a digital selector as it tells the board which input to listen to. The selector switch adds no noise, as it is not part of any audio or digital loop. It merely tells the DAC which input to listen to.
Wayner
-
Correct, inputs selected by front panel switch. No remote control planned for that function.
Frank
-
Hey Frank,
could you post images of the new AVA Basic Vision DAC? Just curious to see how it looks (front/back if possible). Very interested and might jump on this DAC as it sounds killer for the price!
-
Very impressive. Congratulations!
Are you planning to do something for the folks that would miss not having any tubes? :wink:
-
"Note that a USB input is not provided because high bit rate USB computer output requires software driver programs, and we simply do not want to get into the software support business."
Just in case you missed it, the Stereophile Product of the Year is the Ayre QB-9 USB DAC which
uses Asynchronous USB licensed from J. Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio.
You don't need to be in the software support business to included a USB input. Design and support can be out sourced.
-
Answer: get the UltraValve amp. The U70 is my favorite amp ever.
Oh, you audio homewrecker. I have the UV 550 and now you're tampering with marital bliss. I'll just use the excuse of needing the extra watts
Well, if Frank has gone and improved on something that was already pretty amazing, it just shows to go ya. Alas, once the tubes are in the house, it sure is difficult to let them go...
Oh, and this DAC (and its brethren preamp/dac combo) has a balanced output option, for those of us silly enough to care about such things, and for a very reasonable cost (considering that that usually doubles the parts count). Mr. Van Alstine is a very nice man, no doubt. A balanced Ultra amp, someday, perhaps... 8)
-
Just in case you missed it, the Stereophile Product of the Year is the Ayre QB-9 USB DAC which
uses Asynchronous USB licensed from J. Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio.
Among the other things I am missing from Stereophile is a review of this little AV Ultra Fet 550 amp in my living room that is a couple of parsecs ahead of another amp that was heartily recommended in those hallowed pages. In fact, I suspect it's ahead of practically everything they have reviewed there, given that directly-observed standard.
Darn it, they neglected to review any of the DACs, too. Busy magazine, I guess.
Anyway, this would merit its own thread, so I'll be brief: there are excellent reasons to de-emphasize USB support in an audiophile context. Portable lo-fi market, maybe; but if you are already supplying a listening room with real speakers, etc., then USB is probably the least favorable option. I don't think that Van Alstine should worry about that, at least not until they bring out their... yes... I can see it now, the NanoFrank portable USB DAC-pre-amp all-in-one (maybe it'll have the teeniest little tube in there too).
-
"Note that a USB input is not provided because high bit rate USB computer output requires software driver programs, and we simply do not want to get into the software support business."
Just in case you missed it, the Stereophile Product of the Year is the Ayre QB-9 USB DAC which
uses Asynchronous USB licensed from J. Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio.
You don't to be in the software support business to included a USB input. Design and support can be out sourced.
jhm731 purchased an AVA amp last year. He returned the amp within the trial period. He was unhappy. He posted the amp's serial number several times. He comes back every once in a while to educate Frank. His 3rd most popular board by posts is the Intergalactic Wastebin.
-
Hi Guys - It's great to see more DACs available and I'm happy AVA announced the Vision. I would like to offer additional information about USB audio / inputs. Special software and drivers are not needed to support sample rates above 24/96 via USB. Currently Mac OS X supports Class Two Audio so the built in operating system drivers take care of everything. Windows 7 will hopefully support Class Two Audio with the first service pack. First quarter next year will see the release of these higher bit rate USB DACs without additional software or drivers.
Also I think the broad statement from trebejo, "there are excellent reasons to de-emphasize USB support in an audiophile context" is a vast overgeneralization and is misleading. There are excellent quality USB DACs available that are much better sounding than "traditional" DACs. The reverse is also true. It's all a matter of implementation and the quality of the design. I just had the dCS Puccini U-Clock, Paganini DAC, and Paganini Upsampler here for review and its USB to Coaxial S/PDIF converter was stunning. It's better than most "traditional" audio interfaces.
Anyway just a couple thoughts not meant to stir the pot but offer additional information for reader consumption.
-
I just had the dCS Puccini U-Clock, Paganini DAC, and Paganini Upsampler here for review
Lucky Dog!!! :thumb:
-
Chris-
Thanks for posting the info about the USB drivers.
IMO, adding an Asynchronous USB input licensed from J. Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio would broaden the appeal of this new DAC.
I'm surprised that someone like oneinthepipe, who's digital source is computer-based, doesn't understand that.
Thanks for your great forum.
-
Is posting in this manufacturer's forum in this thread announcing their new DAC, an appropriate place to for others to post about their favorite DACs, or would that be considered inappropriate?
-
Inappropriate. Tolerable if it doesn't advance. Back to the release....
-
Just trying to add information and use examples to support my position.
I'm out.
-
IMO, adding an Asynchronous USB input ... would broaden the appeal of this new DAC.
I'm surprised that someone like oneinthepipe, who's digital source is computer-based, doesn't understand that.
I understand that Frank might sell more DACs if he added USB inputs. I am certain that Frank understands that he might sell more DACs if he added USB inputs. Apparently, the fulcrum of Frank's value system is producing the best-sounding DACs rather than the best-selling DACs. If Frank eventually decides to include USB inputs in his DACs, I am confident that the DACs will operate flawlessly. I could buy any manufacturer's DAC. However, I sent my Insight SL to Frank today to have a Vision DAC installed, sans USB.
I don't read Stereophile. I sat two seats away from the editor on the limo ride to the airport after RMAF. I listened to the guy drone on to some manufacturer's rep for an hour. At one point, I was tempted to ask the guy if Stereophile, or their parent company, which he indicated was concerned about profits, intended to have a "100 Best Looking Products" issue, similar to People Magazine's Most Beautiful People issue. I believe that particular issue, like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue, is always a big money-maker.
I think if members wish to "educate" Frank, who has over 40 years of experience in audio design, they should have the courtesy of contacting him privately. However, "malcontents" usually don't display an abundance of courtesy, and instead, are more likely to demonstrate their narcissism by criticizing a manufacturer in a thread, in the manufacturer's own forum, in which the manufacturer eagerly announced a new product. I think that is the height of bad manners, in addition to being indicative of other issues. Of course, they will protest, silently I hope, that they were merely trying to be helpful or that they were just trying to stimulate "constructive" discussion.
BTW, jhm731, which DACs have you designed and produced? Chris C., what products listed on your website did you design and manufacture? I didn't think so.
-
Computer -> Squeezebox -> {Van Alstine Ultra Dac, Van Alstine Vision DAC} -> Preamp with at least two inputs -> amp
Since the Squeezebox has both coax and optical digital outputs, both active simultaneously, this setup lets you a/b between two Van Alstine DAC. In fact, it is an excellent setup for using both DACs according to one's mood.
I think that means that there are enough inputs for the DACs. 8)
As for the sound, well, the ultra dac is one fine dac, and the new one is supposed to be even better. Phew.
-
That's not a dumb question I was just going to ask the same question.
-
Answer: get the UltraValve amp. The U70 is my favorite amp ever.
That confuses me more...I'm trying to decide between these two. Please help!
-
Answer: get the UltraValve amp. The U70 is my favorite amp ever.
That confuses me more...I'm trying to decide between these two. Please help!
The Ultra Valve replaces the U70.
-
Oh, right. Didn't mean to use the two names interchangeably like that.
Sorry to derail the thread, but if you're trying to decide between a U70 and an Ultravalve, the economical/sensible thing to do IMO would be to buy the used U70 that's up for sale on Audio Circle right now for $850. That's around half the cost of a new Ultravalve but not half the performance, especially once you do the B+ wiring mod. If, that is, things like looks and an exposed circuit board aren't important factors.
How far "off" is the U70 from the UV?
-
jhm731, my wizzard designer says, "the majority of DAC producers that offer "switchless" 32-192k support do so by upsampling *everything* to 192k through one of the devices I sent you info about earlier (i.e., Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter chips). This gets the job done, but the asynchronous upsampling is a lossy process." No I do not want to pay for external USB hardware and software support. This would just unnecessarily raise the prices. (As would providing a removable power power cord) :o Please keep to appropriate comments here.
BrianM, what pray tell is "R2R" ?
jtwrace, the new Ultravalve amp has a new audio board, new layout, improved circuits, and even better musicality than the U70 upgrade for the Dyna St-70. It is certainly worth the price both in musical quality and build qualtiy. We are about two weeks away from getting the new light gold anodized faceplate and we will be shipping.
Finally, please keep this thread to the Vision DAC. Post stuff about our other products, or others, in a more appropriate thread.
Thanks,
Frank Van Alstine
-
BrianM, what pray tell is "R2R" ?
Great article!
Both the Ultra DAC and OmegaStar DACs are true 16-bit R2R DACs of course. :)
Frank Van Alstine
-
Congratulations, Frank for another outstanding product, I had the opportunity to listen to them while they were in the prototype stage, they sounded nice.
Now off the topic a bit.........the new Ultravalve amp has a new audio board, new layout, improved circuits, and even better musicality than the U70 upgrade for the Dyna St-70. It is certainly worth the price both in musical quality and build qualtiy.
I just purchased the new U70 board to build the U70 from scratch, is there any way that I can build it to the Ultravalve level of performance?
-
R2R,
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
-
It was nice of Chris to provide some facts about USB and audio and I think the post was relevant to the new product announcement and was in no way meant to insult anyone. The reason I think it is relevant is because as a past and likely future customer of AVA (I'm looking at good value DACs for a computer music server) I know how AVA products evolve with improvements and features and product upgrades trickle out. So if the clarification Chris provided might result in a USB enhancement to the Vision DAC I for one would want to know if it might be considered by Frank. And I want to know if he won't consider it, and why. I'm also interested in a DAC that won't require the use of a reclocker or interface adapter. It's nothing but knowledge sharing. This is good stuff. I'm looking forward to hearing some reports on the sound of the Vision DAC.
-
jhm731, my wizzard designer says, "the majority of DAC producers that offer "switchless" 32-192k support do so by upsampling *everything* to 192k through one of the devices I sent you info about earlier (i.e., Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter chips). This gets the job done, but the asynchronous upsampling is a lossy process." No I do not want to pay for external USB hardware and software support. This would just unnecessarily raise the prices. (As would providing a removable power power cord) :o Please keep to appropriate comments here.
Thanks,
Frank Van Alstine
Mr. Van Alstine-
I’ve never received any info from you about ASRCs.
The Asynchronous USB DACs I know of, are currently limited to 24/96
and don’t use ASRCs.
Good luck with your new DAC.
-
SMARGO, I am listening to your new Vision DAC right now. It will ship on Monday via UPS two day.
Merry Christmas.
Now can I take the rest of the weekend off please? :)
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
I'm very excited about this new DAC and the price point seems to be quite reasonable for the performance it will offer.
I'm still not too clear about the jumper for ultra high rez. One setting (up to 24/96) means that no up sampling will take place and files that are 16/44 (or anything lower than 24/96) will be processed as such. The other jumper setting means you can process up to 24/192 but any input with a lower rez will be up sampled to 24/192. Is this the case?
If that is the case, some sort of routing for an external jumper as Wayner suggested would be of great use. There are already sources for high-rez downloads and I already have 24/192 files although not many at this time. They will likely become more popular.
If the jumper setting is set to 24/96, how will the Vision DAC handle 24/192 and 24/176.4 files? Will they be down converted to 24/96 or 24/88.2?
Still if a switch on the back can be rigged to act as a jumper, that would just offer more flexibility.
Here is the link on Wolfson's website for the 8742 and to the datasheet.
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8742
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/en/WM8742_Rev4.2.pdf
It has some interesting features including DSD (I2S, RJ, LJ, DSP, DSD). Does that mean it can handle SACDs? I know you would need a special connector to pull that off (probably something like I2S), mainly because digital coax is limited by record companies to lower bit rates for copy protection reasons. An I2S connection could also work great for audio sources from Blu-Ray Audio discs. A good example would be the Neil Young Archives Blu-Ray box set and many other concert Blu-Ray discs. It would be nice to feed the digital output from my Blu-Ray player into the AVA Vision DAC.
I hope you guys can clear up my questions.
Either way, I look forward to hearing opinions on the improvements the Vision DAC provides compared to previous models.
Thanks Frank,
TV
-
Thanks TV,
I was having a dog of a time looking for info on the chip. All I found was an interview with Paul McGowan on the new chip. (In it, I saw some fundamental "philosophical" differences between him and Frank on building digital DACs, so I didn't post it here.)
-
Here is the Wolfson information on the 8742 DAC chip.
It is so new that I don't know of any other production users of it yet.
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8742
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
PS Audio has a $3K DAC that uses it.
-
hello,
so in the 24/192 usb mode does this dac down convert the file before its converters and process it in 44k or 48k or does it convert in the files native resolution?
thanks
-
hello,
so in the 24/192 usb mode does this dac down convert the file before its converters and process it in 44k or 48k or does it convert in the files native resolution?
thanks
It does not have a USB connection.
Frank says on the first post - "Of course, diehards can add a separate USB to optical or USB to coax converter box if they desire (available inexpensively from many sources)."
-
There is more to a DAC than which chip was used.
I had been using a dacmagic, and it's a pretty nice little dac. Quite competent, I would say. Then I tried an ultradac. Mein gott. Sooooo much better. So much more musical, really.
The reason I mention the dacmagic is that it has an 8740 chip, which looks like a little brother of the 8742. I am pretty sure that the win for the van alstine dac is in what happens around that dac chip, whether it is the older model or this newfangled 8742-based version. It pays to have someone that pays attention to how the music sounds when the dac is done with it, and you know you will get that with this vision dac here.
-
I'm in! Order placed for a new Vision. :thumb: :hyper:
See me about an Insight+ if your interested. aa :shh:
I've learned from experience with his gear to trust Frank's definition, if not Vision :lol: of musicality and genuine improvement. :notworthy:
-
I'm in! Order placed for the basic version. :thumb: :hyper:
See me about an Insight+ if your interested. aa :shh:
He can upgrade the Insight+ to a Vision... saving you some bucks.
-
For folks who are interested in feeding this new AVA DAC from a computer via USB, I ran across this new USB to Coax adapter that might be worth a look. I ordered one but haven't received it. There are reviews out there that suggest it sounds very good. The thing that attracted me is that it uses proprietary Windows and Mac drivers to output bit-perfect digital to the DAC, at up to 24/192 bit depth/sample rate, with very low measured jitter. The only caveat seems to be that some folks are reporting some sporadic clicks coming through. That's a big caveat, but the manufacturer seems to be very active in updating the drivers, so that issue for some people should be resolved. (then again it may not--I'll see how it goes.)
If it works well, I will strongly consider the Vision DAC. I heard the Insight DAC at Dennis Murphy's house when I auditioned some Salk speakers there, and it was excellent. I currently own a modified PS Audio DL III, and it's good too but I trust that Frank knows what he's talking about (and what he's hearing) with the new DAC.
http://www.m2tech.biz/products.html
-
1. Can the basic Vision DAC receive the balanced output upgrade? I don't need multiple inputs, but I would like balanced outputs.
2. What is the voltage on the balanced outputs (often this is higher than for unbalanced outputs from the same device)?
Many thanks!
-
He can upgrade the Insight+ to a Vision... saving you some bucks.
If you upgrade your Insight+ it saves you $250. If you sell the Insight+ you will most likely get a lot more than $250.
Based on the new Vision DAC price of $1100, a used Insight+ should be able to sell for $500 - $600. At this point in time, it looks like that might be the way to go.
Steve
-
Still no picture? We already know it sounds terrific; would be nicer even to know how it looks, and the dimensions...... :thumb:
-
Frank gave us the dimensions:
Both models are available factory wired only, 17" wide, 12" deep, 3.5" high, 12 pounds.
Picture would be cool though.
-
The Vision DAC (basic version) will look like like all of the other AVA DACs:
(http://www.avahifi.com/images/dac/omegastarDAC.gif)
Wayner
-
The Vision EC DAC will look something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=24833)
Wayner :xmas:
-
Dear Wayner,
Do you know if the basic Vision DAC can be equipped with balanced outputs or is that only available as an option with the EC version? And do you know the output voltage using the balanced outs?
Obviously this is a new critter, so these answers may not be at hand.
Thanks!
-
Don't hold me to it, but I think that XLRs can be supplied with either DAC. The new DAC puts out 1 volt RMS.
Wayner :xmas: :wine: :beer:
-
Thanks, Wayner. I though Frank said output was about 2 volts (and that was on the unbalanced output). Well, I'll keep an ear open for more info.
Merry Christmas! :banana piano:
-
That was 2V peak to peak. Wayner is giving the voltage in RMS
You can find the conversion from peak to peak to RMS here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_conversion_for_rms_voltage_to_peak_to_peak_voltage
Running out the door, so don't have time to do the math...
I for one am very excited about the lower voltage output since it allows me to move my preamp volume control away from the 7 to 9 o'clock range, and it will give me a more fine grained volume control.
-
Thanks for the explanation, roscoeiii. I learned something new today!
Merry Christmas!
-
That was 2V peak to peak. Wayner is giving the voltage in RMS
2V PtP = 1.48V RMS.
-
pardales, smargo,
Santa tells us that you have new Visions, you cannot hide! :D Can we get first impressions soon?
-
That was 2V peak to peak. Wayner is giving the voltage in RMS
2V PtP = 1.48V RMS.
2V P-P = 1.414V RMS
-
Let's let Frank answer this one. It might not be RMS.
Wayner
-
pardales, smargo,
Santa tells us that you have new Visions, you cannot hide! :D Can we get first impressions soon?
Let me start off by saying that i have never owned a ava piece -i have owned and sold a lot of equipment since 1993 - and consider myself an equipment monger and more importantly a music lover.
ok - but i only have about 40 hrs on it - it has been running continuously (pretty much on repeat) since i got it on thursday - im using a bryston bcd -1 as a transport - and wireworld gold starlight as my digital cable (not balanced)
as i only will report what i hear now - i will have a more full report next tuesday or wed - when there are more hours - and impressions are more reliable
Right now it sounds superb - very continuous - very flowing - very "right" - very cuddly (whatever that means).
Im only using very good recordings that i own - i haven't adjusted anything - i haven't opened the unit to adjust the "pin" for higher resolution, etc.
smargo
-
What preamp are you using?
Wayner :xmas:
-
Smargo, I am glad you like the Vision DAC so far. However, don't move the jumper to the high bit rate position unless you have some true high bit rate material to play back. In the high bit rate mode, it will not play standard (up to 96K) bit rate material. The jumper is for those experimenting with rare source material right now, not for any standard available music.
It really should require no break in time at all.
Best regards,
Frank
-
It really should require no break in time at all.
Best regards,
Frank
I'm a firm believer that it's your ears that need to "break-in" and not the equipment. It's also been menioned by a designer that I respect that the best way to break in the equiment is to use it as you normally would. The powre cycles is what's best not the continous power. Maybe Frank will chime in for his equipment.
-
It really should require no break in time at all.
Best regards,
Frank
I'm a firm believer that it's your ears that need to "break-in" and not the equipment. It's also been menioned by a designer that I respect that the best way to break in the equiment is to use it as you normally would. The powre cycles is what's best not the continous power. Maybe Frank will chime in for his equipment.
your kiddin ,me right? - please don't tell me what is right and wrong - i don't have "perfect" ears like you - if i choose to leave on a piece of gear continously to break it in - i will do it - thats how i have gotten the best results from hifi gear over the years.
frank can chime in all he wants - but the best way to evaluate gear imo is to have a number of hours on it - regardless of the "Koolaid" being put out there.
bah humbug to you!
-
It really should require no break in time at all.
Best regards,
Frank
I'm a firm believer that it's your ears that need to "break-in" and not the equipment. It's also been menioned by a designer that I respect that the best way to break in the equiment is to use it as you normally would. The powre cycles is what's best not the continous power. Maybe Frank will chime in for his equipment.
your kiddin ,me right? - please don't tell me what is right and wrong - i don't have "perfect" ears like you - if i choose to leave on a piece of gear continously to break it in - i will do it - thats how i have gotten the best results from hifi gear over the years.
frank can chime in all he wants - but the best way to evaluate gear imo is to have a number of hours on it - regardless of the "Koolaid" being put out there.
bah humbug to you!
Both Frank and jtwrace were giving their opinions. No one is telling you what is right or wrong. Are you kidding us with your caustic response?
Steve
-
your kiddin ,me right? - please don't tell me what is right and wrong - i don't have "perfect" ears like you - if i choose to leave on a piece of gear continously to break it in - i will do it - thats how i have gotten the best results from hifi gear over the years.
frank can chime in all he wants - but the best way to evaluate gear imo is to have a number of hours on it - regardless of the "Koolaid" being put out there.
bah humbug to you!
The "koolaid" is the stuff *you* are drinking. I certainly expect that the designer of the equipment to know if the electrical characteristics change over time. If the electrical characteristics don't change, any perceived "break-in" is in your perception. No Kool-aid required, simple engineering principles.
Brett
-
ok - but i only have about 40 hrs on it - it has been running continuously (pretty much on repeat) since i got it on thursday - im using a bryston bcd -1 as a transport - and wireworld gold starlight as my digital cable (not balanced)
smargo, for the big question - how does it sound compared to the BCD-1?
-
I certainly expect that the designer of the equipment to know if the electrical characteristics change over time. If the electrical characteristics don't change, any perceived "break-in" is in your perception. No Kool-aid required, simple engineering principles.
Which engineering principle is being used? The last time I took an EE course, I didn't see "Principal of Designer Knowing Change of Electrical Characteristics Over Time" as one of the guiding principles of the field.
You can certainly design and build good equipment and not know everything about it. Some very important discoveries and inventions have been made largely by accident, and sometimes quite in advance of the science necessary to provide full understanding and comprehension.
If you really believe that the designer should know, then I'll kindly point you to the following article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
which is a well known logical fallacy. I would suggest that Frank's opinion carries considerable weight, but it wouldn't constitute proof, and I wouldn't substitute it in the place of engineering principles, whatever it is that they happen to be.
I have no opinion of break-in phenomenon with respect to electronics. I just didn't care for the argument being made here.
-
Why don't we get back to the discussion of the DAC? Other threads are better places for another discussion of burn-in. I look forward to hearing accounts of the new DAC, whenever the owners feel like giving them. And I look forward to any updates if/when the owners' impressions change.
-
I certainly look forward to a good little review of this new dac. An SS circuit that flat out beats a tube transimpedance circuit? Damn.
It's funny how an announcement for a new DAC can lead to so many sundry side conversations. That tells me that the people interested in this item are also in general interested on getting "best sound"... and either have some expectation that this piece might get them there, or have already had such an experience from an AVA link in their audio chain.
I guess the combination of "don't screw it up" and "no B.S. marketing" put this brand a couple of standard deviations away from the norm, in a way that makes the end result more musical.
-
I certainly look forward to a good little review of this new dac. An SS circuit that flat out beats a tube transimpedance circuit? Damn.
It's funny how an announcement for a new DAC can lead to so many sundry side conversations. That tells me that the people interested in this item are also in general interested on getting "best sound"... and either have some expectation that this piece might get them there, or have already had such an experience from an AVA link in their audio chain.
I guess the combination of "don't screw it up" and "no B.S. marketing" put this brand a couple of standard deviations away from the norm, in a way that makes the end result more musical.
Exactly. That is why I ordered without hesitation.
-
Why don't we get back to the discussion of the DAC? Other threads are better places for another discussion of burn-in. I look forward to hearing accounts of the new DAC, whenever the owners feel like giving them. And I look forward to any updates if/when the owners' impressions change.
Amen. :bowdown:
-
I certainly hope so. Sorry for helping start the growling. :cry:
Frank
-
I certainly hope so. Sorry for helping start the growling. :cry:
Frank
Frank
So far the dac sounds delicious - i hate to say this but since thursday it has improved from being really good to being really really good - just wanted to say that so far
ill report more on wed or thurs - when i have more hours on it - much to the chagrin of the anti hours people. (am i allowed to say that here)
thanks for your promptness (in getting me the unit before christmas)
stu
-
Stu:
Happy to hear that you like the DAC. Frank will be converting my Insight SL into a Vision DAC/Pre combo..
-
So far the dac sounds delicious - i hate to say this but since thursday it has improved from being really good to being really really good - just wanted to say that so far
I love delicious. I'm glad Frank didn't get the grief that dB Labs did on their new DAC introduction (which I contributed to), but then he did disclose DAC chip and sampling rate information right off the bat, and had a proven track record as well.
ill report more on wed or thurs - when i have more hours on it - much to the chagrin of the anti hours people. (am i allowed to say that here)
Whatever the reason for more hours, we can all only benefit from longer listening and thoughtful reporting. We'll all be patient.
Steve
-
Basic Vision DAC and Insight 240 Double Die (in my often recycled ST-150) are on the way! :dance:
-
Happy New Year everyone!!!!
I haven't read through all 5 pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has been covered.
What are you guys using for a transport?
Is anyone using this with a Wadia 170i?
Thanks
Steve
-
I'm just using and old Sony DVD player (see below), although my old Philips CD recorder (also see below) works fine, too. Happy New Year! :jester:
-
Oh, THAT kind of transport (I just looked up the Wadia 170i). I misunderstood, sorry. I would think the AVA DAC would tend to magnify all the flaws of the MP3 (and similar) lossy formats. I don't see how the Wadia (or anything else) can put back in what the recording codec took out. I haven't fooled around with Apple lossless, so I can't comment on that.
-
I was asking about traditional transports like CD/DVD players as well as the Wadia. The Wadia bypasses the i-pod DAC and gives you the original digital information. I have only used the Apple Lossless in i-tunes and on my i-pod so I am curious about this.
In my experience the quality of the transport plays a huge part in the quality of the the sound that ultimately comes out of the DAC. From my meager understanding most of the enhancements from the transport have to do with the reduction of jitter. The intriguing part of the Wadia is that the jitter issue is reduced substantially because you have romved the main cause of jitter which is the CD itself.
Anyway, just curious what everyone is using.
Thanks
Steve
-
In my experience the quality of the transport plays a huge part in the quality of the the sound that ultimately comes out of the DAC. From my meager understanding most of the enhancements from the transport have to do with the reduction of jitter.
Thanks
Steve
Sorry but you have come to wrong forum. :nono: In the Van Alstine World, these are non-issues.
Why? Unfortunately, I don't know. I'll have to leave that to those in the technical know-how department.
My guess would be that with jitter, you're dealing with timing differences on the micro-second level which you never be able to hear.
-
In my experience the quality of the transport plays a huge part in the quality of the the sound that ultimately comes out of the DAC. From my meager understanding most of the enhancements from the transport have to do with the reduction of jitter.
Thanks
Steve
Sorry but you have come to wrong forum. :nono: In the Van Alstine World, these are non-issues.
Why? Unfortunately, I don't know. I'll have to leave that to those in the technical know-how department.
My guess would be that with jitter, you're dealing with timing differences on the micro-second which you never be able to hear.
There are extensive discussions of jitter/transports/computer audio at various places on this site. The Empirical Audio Forum/Discless Circle are two such places. Whether the folks in this forum are interested in discussing it is another matter.
-
I believe that a quality transport is just good sense, but it doesn't have to be expensive. Most transports these days are built either by Sony, Philips or a small handful of other folks. Since the internal DAC is bypassed, the only thing used is the transport mechanism and function controls of the CD player.
Wayner :D
-
Happy New Year everyone!!!!
I haven't read through all 5 pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has been covered.
What are you guys using for a transport?
Is anyone using this with a Wadia 170i?
Thanks
Steve
i am using the wadia - alternatively with a bryston bcd-1 - the wadia with an ipod classic - sounds very good - if the recording is good to begin with - same can be said with the bryston
the bryston so far - when it is playing - seperates instrumental lines - incredibly -(to die from) - the ipod-wadia combo doesn't do that as well - but also sounds generally fantastic
ill report more later today or tomorrow - when i have more time - so far the dac (with approx 168 hours) - is really starting to become very musical - not that it has ever sounded less than great since i have had it - But Im an hours and breakin guy - and the musicality (which is the most important thing to me) - is starting to rear its beautiful head!
happy new year - talk to you later today or tom
smargo
-
Didn't mean to hit a nerve. Just thought I would ask what transports people are using. If you are using a stock CD/DVD player from Sony/Phillips or whatever, then my guess is that the new Vision DAC would be a huge improvement. That is because the internal DAC that you currently have is of lower quality and a higher quality DAC will give you an improvement. Pretty basic.
A good transport can and ususally does improve the ability of the DAC to do its job. If the Van Alstine products work outside of the norm than I apologize.
smargo - thank you for the info on the Wadia. I look forward to hearing how the DAC continues to improve. I am an hours and break-in guy as well.
Cheers and Happy New Year to All!!!!
-
If it is anything like the AVA Ultra DAC then it certainly needs some hours on it. The Ultra was somewhat flat and unexciting out of the box, vocals were buried back in the mix. I was very disappointed and thought I'd made a big mistake. I pulled it from my rig and let it play in my headphone setup for approx 160 hours. When I put it back in the main rig it was a different DAC and sounds fantastic, very open, dimensional, natural, organic ....
I look forward to the impressions of the early adopters, especially those with the Ultra, as I would fear replacing the tube DAC with a SS one without thorough comparison. However, the Vision does sound promising and I'm watching with interest ...
-
Didn't mean to hit a nerve. Just thought I would ask what transports people are using. If you are using a stock CD/DVD player from Sony/Phillips or whatever, then my guess is that the new Vision DAC would be a huge improvement. That is because the internal DAC that you currently have is of lower quality and a higher quality DAC will give you an improvement. Pretty basic.
A good transport can and ususally does improve the ability of the DAC to do its job. If the Van Alstine products work outside of the norm than I apologize.
smargo - thank you for the info on the Wadia. I look forward to hearing how the DAC continues to improve. I am an hours and break-in guy as well.
Cheers and Happy New Year to All!!!!
You didn't hit a nerve with me. I tried different transports, and the sound was different. After I bought an Insight DAC, I tried an inexpensive (39.99) DVP to replace a Jolida CDP, and the results were terrible. The DVP was throwing noise into my system, either dirty AC, emi, or rfi. Frank diagnosed the problem. The fix was simple; I took the DVP out of the system and used a better quality CDP. The improvement was extraordinary.
My take on CDP/DVP/computer-based transports is, while zeros are zeros and ones are ones, a bad component can throw noise into the system, deteriorating the sound. The DVP that I bought might have been a lemon, but since then, I plug anything with a switching power supply, including my computer, or anything that is reputed to be noisy, into a separate electrical circuit, just to be on the safe side. I have a separate circuit for my preamps, dacs, cdp, and turntable and a separate circuit for my amps.
I couldn't tell you if there is excessive jitter in my setup. I don't know what jitter sounds like and wouldn't know what to listen for; my listening skills are not sufficiently developed to detect jitter.
-
i am using the wadia - alternatively with a bryston bcd-1 - the wadia with an ipod classic - sounds very good - if the recording is good to begin with - same can be said with the bryston
the bryston so far - when it is playing - seperates instrumental lines - incredibly -(to die from) - the ipod-wadia combo doesn't do that as well - but also sounds generally fantastic
ill report more later today or tomorrow - when i have more time - so far the dac (with approx 168 hours) - is really starting to become very musical - not that it has ever sounded less than great since i have had it - But Im an hours and breakin guy - and the musicality (which is the most important thing to me) - is starting to rear its beautiful head!
happy new year - talk to you later today or tom
smargo
ok - so here it goes - i have approx 175 hours on the dac - it sounds like really no sound - that is to say that there is no detectable character in the music chain - it simply plays music - as good as the recording is - that's how good the dac is
Its at least as good as the bryston bcd-1 (with the bryston running as a full cd player - with decoding and all). As I said in the previous post the separation (at least with the bryston used as a transport is phenomenal).
Im not sure if this is the be all and end all of the dacs out there - but surely with confidence i can say that no one will be dissapointed. Its not like i sit down and listen and am totally blown away and all i want to do for the rest of the day is listen to music.
It really acts like a transparency - it just lets the music come thru - as good as it can come thru your system - it doesn't make your system all of a sudden sound like - oh my god!
For the money outlay - you could honestly say that it sounds a lot more expensive - although again it really doesn't have a sound - more of a letting the music come thru more musically - devoid of anything that gives you buyers remorse.
I have been using an arcam avr -600 - a krell s-300i integrated amp - an older arcam delta 290 integrated amp - mythos super towers with powered subs -morrow audio interconnect and speaker cables - chord speaker cables (I forget the designation) and wireworld gold eclipse # 6 digital cables - from the bryston and from the wadia (ipod deck)
My really only real 2 quibbles are with the dac cosmectics - The red-orange light that shows that the unit is on - can be annoying - just sitting there in your rack - Frank may want to consider a smaller and less offensive light. Also there isn't a detachable power cord on the back - so you cant really experiment.
There is much detail and flowingness that comes thru the dac - again not so good recordings still sound more or less the same - at least to me - but the good recordings that I have - simply sound scrumptious
Much to the backlashing contingent out there - the dac does continue to improve over time - not night and day - but in the actual musicality
that is portrayed.
This is a very good piece of gear - def in my top 10 of the decade - that i have heard in the $1000 dollar range - and i have had many cd players and dacs from $800 to $2700.
I will continue to run the dac and see if there are more good surprises on the horizon - ill report again next week with an update
much regards to everyone,
smargo
-
Also there isn't a detachable power cord on the back - so you cant really experiment.
much regards to everyone,
smargo
Guess you don't know Franks feelings on this...yeah go ahead and ask for one. :rotflmao:
Glad your happy!
-
smargo:
You couldn't give Frank a greater compliment than to state that his DAC (or any piece of his gear) "sounds like really no sound".
Glad that you like the DAC. I am looking forward to my Vision DAC/Preamplifier. :thumb:
Regarding the power cord, don't go there. :wink: Regarding the power indicator lamp, I seem to recall another thread in which there were some suggestions.
-
Without commenting on cosmetics, power cords, or break-in... I'm glad you like your new DAC. I am about to order one, too, but can't decide whether to get the SL or EC version. I'll make up my mind today, me thinks... aa
-
My really only real 2 quibbles are with the dac cosmectics - The red-orange light that shows that the unit is on - can be annoying - just sitting there in your rack -
Regarding the power indicator lamp, I seem to recall another thread in which there were some suggestions.
As much as I really like and prefer pristine front panel cosmetics, I must admit that half of my components wear a small piece of electrical tape somewhere on the front panel.
Steve
-
I am about to order one, too, but can't decide whether to get the SL or EC version. I'll make up my mind today, me thinks... aa
If you listen to older music that doesn't sound good - get the EC. If you only listen to modern good sounding ones, SL.
-
Uhm, I thought Frank said they both "sound" the same, the only difference is the input options? Source material aside, the SL/EC argument really depends on what and how much you are going to hook up to it. Maybe I'm mistaken.
-
AFAIK, the two DACs are the Vision and the Vision EC with multiple inputs. When a reference was made to SL vs EC, I assumed that robinje and charmerci were talking about AVA preamps.
Steve
-
I guess I got my model names mixed up. I am not interested in a preamp. My choice is between the basic Vision DAC and the Vision "EC" DAC with multiple inputs. I am leaning toward the basic model, as I currently only use a CD player as a digital source. The "EC" version, if I opt for it, would be 'just in case' I add other digital sources in the future. I will probably just save the money and stick with the basic version because I don't have any forseeable need for more inputs at this time.
-
If your input needs did change in the future, a possible solution would be to add the Inday DA4X-R Digital Audio Switcher with 4 S/PDIF coax or optical inputs.
I don't know if it this device might possibly add any jitter to the signal or not, but based on what I've read here, this is not really an issue with the AVA design or the new Wolfson 8742 DAC chip. It would also add IR remote control.
Steve
-
Oops! :oops: I forgot that there's a "EC" Vision DAC.
Frank, I suggest that you don't use the EC designation on the new DAC to prevent further confusion with your pre-amp designs.
-
I made up my mind and ordered a new basic Vision DAC a few minutes ago. :thumb:
-
Great! I'm sure you will be happy. Of course, let us know what you think when you get it.
Wayner :D
-
Frank
So far the dac sounds delicious - i hate to say this but since thursday it has improved from being really good to being really really good - just wanted to say that so far
ill report more on wed or thurs - when i have more hours on it - much to the chagrin of the anti hours people. (am i allowed to say that here)
thanks for your promptness (in getting me the unit before christmas)
stu
So if it got better and better, you must be saying there is a drift issue in the electrical parameters? stability issues? BUT that is not so, in any of Frank's designs. What changed exactly? I have never had any AVA component change ever.
-
So if it got better and better, you must be saying there is a drift issue in the electrical parameters? stability issues? BUT that is not so, in any of Frank's designs. What changed exactly? I have never had any AVA component change ever.
what has changed for me is that the dac has become more musical and involving - I can't prove it other than listening - over 2.5 weeks! Is that so wrong!
smargo
-
So if it got better and better, you must be saying there is a drift issue in the electrical parameters? stability issues? BUT that is not so, in any of Frank's designs. What changed exactly? I have never had any AVA component change ever.
So festuss... do you think that your ears are the authority on fine gradations in sound quality? Do you have the Vision DAC? If you don't, then you're just engaging in an opinion based on speculation.
-Roy
-
In addition, some people just don't have very sensitive ears. :P For instance, everybody isn't gifted with perfect pitch so it follows that some might be able to discern fine gradations in sound quality that others can't perceive.
-Roy
-
Whether it is break-in, warming up, or just getting used to the new sound a new piece of gear produces in ones system, I find it takes me several weeks to begin to get a good handle on what a new component does to the sound of my system.
I've got about one week with my new Vision DAC. I moved from an Insight+ to the Vision on a leap of faith. Not my usual M.O.. I usually demo new gear in my system and decide whether I like it more than what I currently have. But, I loved my Insight+ DAC so much (my reference for just over one year, replaced the Altmann Attraction DAC), and trust Frank's judgment, and got caught up in the excitement of his new line-up.
For now, it seems to me that the Vision DAC is an improvement in my system. More open soundstage; clear, clear, crisp--this is perhaps the biggest difference between the Insight+ and the Vision; more inner detail: hearing new things in familiar recordings; balanced and smooth. These are initial impressions--I reserve the right to alter this report.
Mostly though, I find myself wanting to just keep listening to music. The sound of the Vision, as it was with the Insight+, is very satisfying...seems to get the music right.
-
Mostly though, I find myself wanting to just keep listening to music.
Well, it sounds like Frank's secret sauce is still au courant. :wink:
Congratulations on your new dac!
-
I'm with Jim Winey on this one and his 3 note theory..If you don't hear a difference with the first 3 notes played it's not there.. :wink:
Happy listening,,
Mel
-
Hey Guys,
I don't really mind whether you fall in love with our equipment in three notes or three weeks. Everyone has their own methodology to evaluating their experiences with something new and hopefully better.
Just as long is the break in time does not turn out to be a break down time. That we certainly hope does not happen.
Smargo seems to be very happy with his Vision DAC. This makes us happy too. Let him express himself as he sees fit. I very much appreciate his comments. I made one comment much early in this thread about "break in time" that I probably should have just kept to myself. No matter how you come to thoroughly enjoy our equipment, the end result is the same, another happy customer. We like that best of all.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
When I got the Ultradac, I tried the a/b three-note test comparing it with the dacmagic, switching inputs with the knob on the ol' preamp. I could hardly hear a difference.
I smiled... "oh, what the hell, it's still a Van Alstine"...
Then I left the Ultradac in place and just started to listen to some music. I am not sure how long it took, maybe two or three songs (rather than notes), but I began to feel more involved with the music than when I'd used the previous dac. The difference was particularly obvious on CDs that did not sound so great beforehand.
It's been a few weeks since I got it, but I still could not give the description for why it sounds (so much) better than what it replaced. Yep, I figured such a strong improvement should show up as a three-note test, but for me it did not; the parameters were a bit more holistic than that.
So the new DAC takes a little while to appraise properly? Big deal, as long as you like it more and more every day!
-
Different is what I hear when I put a new component in the chain. I hear differences immediately.
But discerning the quality and quantity of those differences takes time. Is that bass more taught or deeper? Did I just hear a vocal section that I never heard before? I don't usually hear that sound so deep into the soundstage? Where'd that midrange bloom go on track 6? But, this is only one level of change.
Sometimes I just watch my behavior......am I constantly fidgeting for the next song or album or just kicking back and relaxing.....watching your behavior can often tell you a lot more about your reaction to a new component than the rational evaluation.
Not to mention that I have a long list of various kinds of music that I know really well, and it takes many days and nights to listen to the various tracks and albums to appreciate the differences.
Sure, in an instant I can judge that there is a difference and even form a general impression. Many times I have inserted a new piece and thought, "wow this is great", only to find that a week or two later I want the piece out of my system. My first impression is not always reliable with a new piece of audio gear and I find that, in the case of evaluating new gear, it takes several weeks to appreciate the nature of the difference and if it is pleasing to me.
-
So festuss... do you think that your ears are the authority on fine gradations in sound quality? Do you have the Vision DAC? If you don't, then you're just engaging in an opinion based on speculation.
-Roy
:duh: So if you are hearing this change, you better speak to Frank, you must have a DEFECTIVE unit, there is no drift or change in solid state electronics, one of the reasons for it's existence. I have several AVA units there is no change, there is no drift, nothing happens if I leave them on for 2 weeks, or one day or 5 hours, it always sounds the same. That's called good design, electrical stability. Have you not heard Frank say many many many times there is no need to beak in, nor is there any changes. Does your computer change over time, didn't think so, if it does, there is a PROBLEM. Why is electronics different in audio components? the electrons don't know any difference, the components ae stable in DAC's or computers, or pre amps etc. :duh: :duh: :duh: Right now I have at least 9 AVA units in use in my system, nothing changes, why would YOUR one DAC change?
-
Festuss, it's not like I am necessarily disagreeing with you (although to some extent, I do). It's just that this is not really the proper place to discuss whether equipment does or does not change as it "breaks in". In this thread, we are talking about the brand-spanking new DAC, how good it is or isn't, etc.
You can definitely start a new thread on that topic of equipment break-in. I would love to hear about the nine AVA units that you own, I must admit I am a little envious. Let's just make it easier for other folks to start adding up the number of AVA pieces in their possession by sticking to the topic of the new dac on this thread, what do you say? :thumb:
-
Sorry about the duplicate post. Dunno what happened. :scratch:
-
:duh: So if you are hearing this change, you better speak to Frank, you must have a DEFECTIVE unit, there is no drift or change in solid state electronics, one of the reasons for it's existence. I have several AVA units there is no change, there is no drift, nothing happens if I leave them on for 2 weeks, or one day or 5 hours, it always sounds the same. That's called good design, electrical stability. Have you not heard Frank say many many many times there is no need to beak in, nor is there any changes. Does your computer change over time, didn't think so, if it does, there is a PROBLEM. Why is electronics different in audio components? the electrons don't know any difference, the components ae stable in DAC's or computers, or pre amps etc. :duh: :duh: :duh: Right now I have at least 9 AVA units in use in my system, nothing changes, why would YOUR one DAC change?
Oh great, another saviour swooping in to tell us what we are or aren't hearing so that we don't have to hear or think for ourselves. :roll:
This is YOUR opinion festuss and that is fine, just don't ram it down our throats as if we were gullible young newbies who haven't been in this hobby for decades. Sure, your opinion may be shared by others and even Frank himself. However, there are others who have a different opinion based upon their own hearing in their own system. Surely you aren't so arrogant as to believe that these people are all wrong simply because their observations differ from yours? I haven't seen anybody state (in this thread) that electrons change, or any of the other implications you made ... they have simply conveyed what they heard. You are also wrong that it is just one person. If you had bothered to read the thread you would have noticed my post on the previous page describing changes that I heard in an AVA Ultra DAC as it burned in or settled in or whatever else you want to call it. And no, I was not pre-conditioned to hear it. In fact, knowing that Frank has stated in the past that there are no audible burn in effects with his gear, I was expecting no changes whatsoever. However, over several listening sessions over different days, with no other system or room changes, the DAC sounded dull, closed in, congested, vocals were pushed back into the mix. Still thinking that AVA products have no burn in effects, I really did fear that I had made a mistake in purchasing this DAC and pulled it out of the system with a view to selling it off. Because by nature I am methodical and thorough, I figured it can't hurt to throw it into my headphone system for a while (where the same traits were observed). I gave it about 160 hours then installed it back in the big rig, with the view that it would be no different and I would then sell it. Still NO changes to system or room. BIG difference ... much better dimensionality, separation, voices were much better delineated and brought forward of the backing instruments, the (relative) lifelessness and flatness had gone. Performance is superb. Had I been even more closed minded to the possibility of burn in effects I would have sold it and never known what a truly good DAC it is. It has performed in this way ever since, over multiple listening sessions (ie. no further changes that I can hear).
So, no I don't know the scientific reasons for what I heard (and don't really care), but they were obvious despite me actually expecting the reverse. I don't recall you being there so please don't try to tell me (or others) what I heard as all it does is to erode your credibility in my eyes. Similarly, I won't try to tell you that you have poor ears or a poor system not to have heard burn in effects. I have no idea of your background, ears, system etc etc and am happy to accept that you have heard no such effects from AVA gear.
Perhaps I should also point out that I don't claim to hear these effects in all new equipment though I have heard them in some others. Sometimes I "think" I hear something but wouldn't swear to it. Other times it is quite obvious, as in the case of the AVA Ultra DAC.
-
well, the worst expectations materialized :( we are talking about the burn-in staff now... not a right time and definitely not a right place!
-
Soooo, Frank.... how about that brand new current amplifier device that you pulled out of your hat, hmm? Care to share some details?! :eyebrows:
-
Nope. :)
Frank
-
Nope. :)
Frank
Looks like we'll have to arrange a midnight visit to the patent office. :icon_twisted:
-
I received my new basic Vision DAC today... :D
I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but I did turn it on and noticed the glowing red LED inside the chassis. What does this indicate? It is not described in the instruction sheet, and my quick search of this thread hasn't turned up any discussion. I apologize, however, if it has been previously described and I missed it.
-
The glowing red lite is part of the surveillance circuit installed with the help of Jack Bower. It listens to your comments and reports you if you say anything bad about it.
Actually it is there mostly for initial setup and testing. It glows only when a disc is not tracking. When it plays the tiny little red led will go out.
Regards,
Frank
-
My guess on the output device is the National LME49600 (Buf 634 redone by National). It has 2000Vmsec slew rate, quarter amp current and zero feedback and no gain....all the specs Frank said earlier. My sense is that there is a passive filter and then the device and either a coupling cap after or before the device. By the way, I use the Buf 634 the same way on the multichannel outs on my modded Oppos.....great device.....and good choice....very pure sounding device.
-
Okay, I've had a chance to enjoy a first listening session involving my new Vision DAC and an old favorite... Pink Floyd - The Wall. All I can say is... WOW!!! :thumb:
This thing is incredible. The clarity and musicality are simply astonishing. I have never heard this album, which I am very familiar with, sound so incredibly good. I sold an Ultra DAC (with hesitation because I liked it so much) to be able to buy this new Vision DAC. I have absolutely no concern that this was the right decision. I honestly cannot fathom how it can possibly get any better than this with digital media. Excellent job on your design and implementation, Frank. You're truly a Visionary!
-
... Versatile - - - the AVA Vision DAC directly accepts 44K, 48K, and 96K bit rates. It can be user adjusted to accept 192K 24bit ultra fast input digital data streams too. Simply moving one internal jumper. ...
Frank just for clarification, does this mean that the standard setting handles 24/96? You mention "bit rates" but list sampling rates. Obviously the high res setting handles 24/192, but is the standard setting up to 24 bit or 16 bit only? Thanks.
-
Yes 24 bit is handled too at all bit rates. Not all combinations tested yet. Let me know if any issues come up please.
Frank
-
Why does a jumper need to be moved internally? Why isn't it automatic like other Dac's? Is it sonically better this way or??
-
Why does a jumper need to be moved internally? Why isn't it automatic like other Dac's? Is it sonically better this way or??
That's just the way the Wolfson chip works.
-
Yes 24 bit is handled too at all bit rates...
:scratch: Frank, you are still confusing me ... "24 bit" IS the bit rate.
The BIT RATES are 16 bit and 24 bit. The SAMPLING FREQUENCIES are 44.1khz/88.2khz/96khz/176.4khz/192khz.
I presume you are trying to say that:
1) the default jumper position will play: 16-bit/44.1khz, 24-bit/88.2khz and 24-bit/96khz but NOT 24-bit/176.4khz or 24-bit/192khz.
and
2) the alternative jumper position will play 24-bit/176.4khz and 24-bit/192khz but NOT 16-bit/44.1khz, 24-bit/88.2khz or 24-bit/96khz.
Is this correct?
Thanks Frank.
-
Correct, but understand that the unit has not yet been tested under all input signal conditions. We would appreciate any feedback from users regarding high big rate compatibility.
Frank
-
With all due respect, why wouldn't the unit have been tested under all signal conditions? Sounds like about an hour's worth of testing with a handful of sample files.
Steve
-
Why not tested under all conditions? Simply because I don't have a computer that allows access to high bit rate files yet. I have so many important documents written over the years in Pagemaker, Freehand, and Hypercard, that I need to have a Mac that still supports OS9 for many tasks.
I am thinking about picking up an inexpensive new Mac Mini just to allow direct digital output of hi res sound files, but have not done that yet. I do know the Vision DAC will do just fine on 96K material from DVD Audio discs that my Oppo Blue Ray player will handle.
Very high bit rate music is stlll only a tiny fraction of the overall music available and our attention has been with getting the new products done and available first.
Again any feedback will be appreciated. The unit is supposed to work on high res stuff according to the Wolfson specs that we followed for sure.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Very high bit rate music is stlll only a tiny fraction of the overall music available and our attention has been with getting the new products done and available first. I do know the Vision DAC will do just fine on 96K material from DVD Audio discs that my Oppo Blue Ray player will handle.
Yes, my main interest was the higher resolution formats up to and including 24/96.
I am thinking about picking up an inexpensive new Mac Mini just to allow direct digital output of hi res sound files, but have not done that yet.
Go for it! Besides having the capability to test file formats, I think you would appreciate having iTunes-type playlists and shuffle capability for your music library in the shop (if you're not already doing something like that on another computer).
Re: the Mac Mini, I know the base AVA Vision DAC only has a coaxial S/PDIF input. Your "extended" version will have optical input as well, and I know you have recommended an inexpensive Toslink to Coaxial converter for your previous DACs.
My question is - is there any significant change in performance when using an external converter as compared to using an optical input designed into the main DAC circuit board?
Thanks,
Steve
-
There should be no musical difference between using the built in optical inputs on a Vision EC DAC and using a properly designed external coax to optical converter box with the standard Vision DAC.
However, most of these recent posts are rather secondary in comparison to the overall musical performance of the Vision DAC. Listen and you will hear.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
I have listened and I have heard... this DAC is incredible! The more I listen to it, the more I impressed I am. And no... it is not because the unit is beaking in! :duh:
-
The more I listen to it, the more I impressed I am. And no... it is not because the unit is beaking in! :duh:
:thumb:
-
Frank,
I have a few hi-res files we can test 24/192 with when I get my system together in a couple of weeks. As you know, the system will be Olive 4HD - Vision DAC - Avastar Pre - FET Altra 550 - Canton Ref 3.2. I'm really looking forward to it.
On the interconnect/speaker wire front, my son is the sound engineer for a small but very sucessful music studio in Chicago. I was there this weekend for the first time since they did a move and complete rebuild.
Millions in equipment, both new and old. Almost all their cables are very nice but relatively inexpensive Mogami. For speaker wire he laughed and told me the same thing Frank did. Some good quality 12 ga (I think Frank said 14) is all I need. This is from someone that takes music as seriously as anyone I've ever met.
Jim
-
I have listened and I have heard... this DAC is incredible! The more I listen to it, the more I impressed I am. And no... it is not because the unit is beaking in! :duh:
Have you got a bird pecking away at your DAC or something? :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
NB
-
I have had the Vision Basic in my system for about 10 days. It is different than the Insight+. First off, it is better in a few ways. The clarity is probably the biggest difference. The Vision provides an incredibly clear window on the music. I can definitely hear deeper into the recordings. It is a very musical DAC that presents the recording to you very much, it seems, as the recording is.
That said the Insight+ was a touch more on the sweet side where as the Vision has a dryer presentation. I don't know much about wine but maybe something like a very dry wine versus one that has more fruit overtones. There was also a wholeness to the Insight+ that I like that I have not yet experienced with the Vision.
Don't get me wrong though, the Vision is a superb DAC that I think many people are really going to enjoy. System synergy, as always, is everything. Another great product from AVA.
-
There was also a wholeness to the Insight+ that I like that I have not yet experienced with the Vision.
And I didn't really experience a wholeness as well - in fact I thought after really switching in the bryston bcd-1 and comparing to the vision - i thought the bryston sounded a touch more wholistic - Now im not so sure anymore - in almost 3 weeks -(my experience) - the vision has really come into its own - meaning wholeness, sweetness, etc. Of course you know im using the bryston as a transport to the vision - but with the comparisons - i used the bryston as a cd player and the vision dac with the bryston as a transport.
-
My new (modified) Vision DAC will arrive tomorrow!!!!!! :hyper: I will have to stock up on beer and plan on being a shut-in for the day. The play list will be brutal on the MartinLogans, but I will show little mercy (they generally like that) and will see how things go into the rarely achieved 4th stage of power. I have really only 2 CDs that can do this effectively, namely the Brian Setzer Orchestra and a Telarc CD of Arron Copland that is very dynamic.
I shall report back tomorrow.
Wayner :eyebrows:
-
My new (modified) Vision DAC will arrive tomorrow!!!!!!
What modifications and why? Is the stock unit lacking in some area?
Steve
-
No. I have a special (older) preamp that required higher gain. That is the only change.
Wayner :D
-
Wayne ordered the high gain option for his Vision DAC as described in our product announcement herein. This simply adds a transparent gain stage after the filter stage to provide higher output voltage for some special needs such as a low gain preamp or use with a passive volume control.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
In addition - i have sort of relaxed into the dac - meaning that music in general seems to be more relaxing than it was almost 3 weeks ago, - Course, it could be me
Its kind of like always having the radio on - and nothing stands out at you - Then all of a sudden - a song comes on - and it begs you to listen - thats what the dac does - but not in an obnoxious way or anything - its just part of the musical flow that is happening.
So im real happy, with the vision dac - it really presents music in a very natural way - See, when i first got it - it sounded good - but it really didn't turn me on. But gradually it sort of creeps up on you - that your listening to songs longer than usual .
I know its not supposed to improve over time - at least in theory - (and it all sounds convincing) - but to my ears - it has improved - becoming a player that you "wouldn't hesitate to tell someone how good it is" compared to the beginning of when i got it and said "oh its good - but big deal".
I hate to say this - But, I really think that patience is a real key to this dac - there are so many subtle things that start showing up over time - which supports the wholeness aspect that was talked about in an earlier post.
regards:
I really would like to hear how other people are experiencing the vision dac and if they are seeing the same things I am.
-
Picked up my Vision Basic DAC (upgraded from small box OmegaStar) and my Insight Double 240 (upgraded from OmegaStar 240EX in Dynaco ST150 chassis). First impression is one of greater purity and clarity. The closer the sound is to live music, the less it hurts my ears, even when turned way up. This is the best yet. Got a lot of listening to do. :thumb:
-
Thanks for the comments guys, keep 'em coming.
Got a lot of listening to do. :thumb:
Okay then, turn it up, and report back when you have more impressions. :lol: 8)
-
My Vision DAC has arrived today as promised! After install, I selected 3 notorious CDs for my first listening session.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/70/Depeche_Mode_Playing_the_Angel.jpg/200px-Depeche_Mode_Playing_the_Angel.jpg)
(http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/183/183376_1_f.jpg&usg=AFQjCNGoV7ub2zr-sq1fFMwTSC0iNDm3qQ) '
and
(http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/514AECB88DL._SS500_.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFJeRVJ6ZNMA7lD2PCrKb2K7ivG5A)
From the first 3 notes on Playing the Angle, I knew this was a new sound. This album has some nasty "chain saw" synthesizers, driving beats, stereo panning and very calm and pleasant vocals. While the synth on selection 3 buzzed with it's rotating cutting teeth like buzz on a Leslie rotating speaker, I had the initial gut response to duck for cover. When the vocals entered the picture, it was kind of bizarre with highly distorted, nasty synths and totally perfect, non distorted vocals in total contrast of each other, yet playing at the same time. From that point on, I knew this DAC was "Visionary" to coin the phrase.
Thomas Dolby's Gate to the Mind's eye was soundscape of motion, featuring the theme song "Armageddon" which really likes to play with depth of field and lots of stereo panning of sound textures. It basically exploded before my eyes, er ears.
I was starting to understand why Henry (Oneinthepipe) blew some fuses on his first evening. The presentation is different. The music, along with all that wonderful texture, space and reverb project backwards, giving the recordings more depth, more impact and an almost strange sound of listening to monoblock amplifiers. This I attribute to the apparently excellent separation of the Vision DAC.
Some have commented that the DAC sounded better as time went on. My friends, you are simply getting use to your favorite CDs sounding in a better presentation. It will take some time for the mind to get use to the new presentation of the music.
The Camel CD, Coming of Age is a live recording of very special merit. It is very well recorded and the new Vision DAC revealed intricacies that I had not heard before. It is like this DAC is finally plowing thru complex musical passages and revealing everything as it must have sounded like in the studio. This may be some of the reasons why earlier DACs (from who ever) had a different sound, perhaps just failing to handle the complexity of it all when the music got going.
I will try to spend some more time with the new DAC tonight, but I can tell aleady that it's awesome.
Great job, Frank! I is one happy camper!
Wayner :D
-
rarely achieved 4th stage of power. I have really only 2 CDs that can do this effectively, namely the Brian Setzer Orchestra and a Telarc CD of Arron Copland that is very dynamic.
What's the 4th stage of power?
-
Wayner, could you offer any comparisons or opinions between this new Vision Dac when compared to the Ultra Dac which is quite a bit more expensive? Thanks. :D
I did finally have an opportunity last week to listen to an old Insight(edit) Dac and came away impressed. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
-
Old Vision DAC? There are no old Vision DACs.
Frank
-
What's the 4th stage of power?
That is a term I have coined thru my listening years.
1st stage = music softly playing.
2nd stage = music easily heard.
3rd stage = music becomes dominate.
4th stage = music is at concert levels, concert dynamics.
Few can achieve it successfully. When you are there, it is music perfection as it was made to be played, as it was recorded, with dynamics and impact. Requires lots of power.
Wayner
-
Old Vision DAC? There are no old Vision DACs.
Frank
Opps, my mistake Frank. It was an Insight Dac. I'm not all that familiar with your product line so I had to find out the right model name via email. Regardless, I did like what I heard thru a set of Salk HT-3's. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
-
Some have commented that the DAC sounded better as time went on. My friends, you are simply getting use to your favorite CDs sounding in a better presentation. It will take some time for the mind to get use to the new presentation of the music.
Wayner :D
your kidding me right - wayne - whats the difference if i think the unit adds something over time - Are you judging my ears and the way i hear things?
I think your way off base and borderline ridiculous in saying that that im getting use to my favorite cd's sounding in a better presentation - especially in the first day your listening.
use it for 3 weeks and say the same thing and Ill consider aquiescing to your
theory.
-
Some have commented that the DAC sounded better as time went on. My friends, you are simply getting use to your favorite CDs sounding in a better presentation. It will take some time for the mind to get use to the new presentation of the music.
Wayner :D
You are correct IMO!
-
Come on guys! Now we are arguing not about whether the new DAC is great, but over when you decided it was so?
If you like the DAC, and you can tell us something about it, that is very interesting. If you are a quick or a slow learner on that topic is far less interesting, isn't it?
-
I have been listening to the Vision DAC from my Vision DAC/Preamp with an interconnect between the Vision DAC/Preamp's tape out and one of the T8 preamp's inputs. The Vision DAC is very quiet. The clarity is outstanding. The low end is very powerful and well defined. I have also briefly compared the Vision DAC to the T8 DAC. The Vision DAC is quieter (blacker) than the T8 DAC, even with the 6CG7 tubes. The T8 DAC has good low end, but the Vision DAC's is flatter, deeper, and better defined. The Vision DAC also seems to have better high end extension. The T8 DAC with the Mazda 6CG7 tubes seems to roll off the high end. The T8 DAC produces more pronounced and extended sound with brushes on snares and cymbals and growly voices are more growly. I don't know why the T8 DAC appears to have those different characteristics, however, but I like a lot of growl in my growly, and I am not yet ready to take the T8 out of the mix. Choices, choices (and I am grateful to have them).
-
Come on guys! Now we are arguing not about whether the new DAC is great, but over when you decided it was so?
exactly the point - who gives a flying f--k when the decision is made - I just think wayner has no business taking a shot at the break-in and hours people
-
So Wayne, the DAC is in the "big room" set?
-
Yes the DAC is in the big room. Smargo, if you want to believe that your DAC/whatever breaks in, then that's fine with me. Your reaction to an off the cuff statement of mine is a bit over the top, but I'm OK with that. You obviously have strong believes thru your experiences. I do to, but my education in psychology and brain shit tells me that there are other factors involved other then the device "finally coming around" theory. It's like going to work in a new place, the first day not even remembering where the bathrooms are. By week 3, everything about the new work place is known. Did it break in, or did I get used to the new environment.
Wayner :D
-
I have been listening to the Vision DAC from my Vision DAC/Preamp with an interconnect between the Vision DAC/Preamp's tape out and one of the T8 preamp's inputs. The Vision DAC is very quiet. The clarity is outstanding. The low end is very powerful and well defined. I have also briefly compared the Vision DAC to the T8 DAC. The Vision DAC is quieter (blacker) than the T8 DAC, even with the 6CG7 tubes. The T8 DAC has good low end, but the Vision DAC's is flatter, deeper, and better defined. The Vision DAC also seems to have better high end extension. The T8 DAC with the Mazda 6CG7 tubes seems to roll off the high end. The T8 DAC produces more pronounced and extended sound with brushes on snares and cymbals and growly voices are more growly. I don't know why the T8 DAC appears to have those different characteristics, however, but I like a lot of growl in my growly, and I am not yet ready to take the T8 out of the mix. Choices, choices (and I am grateful to have them).
Thanks OINP. Descriptions like that really help me get an idea of how something might sound.
-
Few can achieve it successfully. When you are there, it is music perfection as it was made to be played, as it was recorded, with dynamics and impact. Requires lots of power.
Wayner
Lots of power or efficient speakers. :)
-
exactly the point - who gives a flying f--k when the decision is made - I just think wayner has no business taking a shot at the break-in and hours people
Why not? Nobody has ever shown any measurements to prove that there is a break-in cycle for electronics. The engineers state that there is no known process that would account for what some people say they hear. The "break-in and hours people" are making an extraordinary claim, so they need to back it up with some proof. Until there's proof, they have nothing.
-
Can we please not go OT on break-in again here? Let's let folks post their impressions at a point that they feel is appropriate, and then if they hear differences over time, I'd love to hear about that as well. I'd hate to see the thread get hi-jacked by break-in debate again.
-
Can we please not go OT on break-in again here? Let's let folks post their impressions at a point that they feel is appropriate, and then if they hear differences over time, I'd love to hear about that as well. I'd hate to see the thread get hi-jacked by break-in debate again.
agreed - 1000%
-
Quote from: roscoeiii on Today at 08:45 AMCan we please not go OT on break-in again here? Let's let folks post their impressions at a point that they feel is appropriate, and then if they hear differences over time, I'd love to hear about that as well. I'd hate to see the thread get hi-jacked by break-in debate again.
agreed - 1000%
Way to be Stu. :thumb: 8)
-
Oh good, back to peace. :D Actually my comment about break-in was actually more directed to the fact that one could immediately tell the difference in performances between the Insight and Vision DACs.
To that end, I will use this over used term and say "linearity". What Oneinthepipe and others who have the new Vision DAC maybe experiencing a very, very linear behaving DAC, bass, midrange and high frequesncies all in balance with each other. I have solid bass at low listening levels, real bass at moderate listening levels and commanding (but not overwhelming bass at higher volumes. The frequency response of the DAC and power output is ruler flat at all volumes. That is the reason I am hearing more "air" in the recording. On Tears for Fears" Live in California, the natural air, the reverb of the recording is as I would expect in real life. It sounds like an outdoor concert.
I need to listen to some classical later on (Aaron Copeland) and some big band like Brian Setzer to get a better feel, but I don't know how I could not recommend this DAC to everyone.
Wayner :D
-
wayner
Just as an FYI...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76053.0
-
The frequency response of the DAC and power output is ruler flat at all volumes.
Which ones don't have ruler flat FR?
-
Which ones don't have ruler flat FR?
If two DACs have ruler flat freq. responses what would be the reason that they might not sound identical?
-Roy
-
If two DACs have ruler flat freq. responses what would be the reason that they might not sound identical?
-Roy
Devices abilities to simultaneously reproduce multiple frequencies with multiple volumes and multiple speeds. Different devices have different sonic characteristics. Different opamps produce a different sound. Different tubes produce a different sound.
-
A flat frequency response might not necessarily reveal components of the audio signal such as:
1. Random noise and harmonic ailasing that may or may not be removed or tamed with filtering circuitry
2. Mistiming and smearing of the audio signal due to jitter
Steve
-
A flat frequency response might not necessarily reveal components of the audio signal such as:
1. Random noise and harmonic ailasing that may or may not be removed or tamed with filtering circuitry
2. Mistiming and smearing of the audio signal due to jitter
Steve
I don't think I've seen any DACs with problem #1 at audible levels. #2 has never been shown to be an audible problem for typical DACs and CD players.
-
I don't think I've seen any DACs with problem #1 at audible levels. #2 has never been shown to be an audible problem for typical DACs and CD players.
Then all DACs with similar frequency response sound the same.
Steve
-
Does the new Vision DAC have a flatter FR than the Insight DAC?
-Roy
-
Lots of folks claim their device has a frequency response of 20-20K. They forget to mention that between 20-250hz, it's down 2 db or there is a 3db rise in the 5K region or that the top end has a risings slope at 12K and drops to -3db at 20K. When you hear such a device, it sounds like someone has fiddled with the tone controls. The balance of sound is skewed.
This is really no different then the things I look for in analog with my vinyl set-up. I look for that balanced sound with lots of air around the recording, then I know that things are set-up right with adjustments like VTF, VTA anti-skating and such. This is also one of the reasons why Frank is bridging the gap between analog and digital playback. He also knows that this is the direction to find the Holy Grail of sound reproduction. Do nothing to the music but amplify it. That is the mission of the DAC, the preamp, the amp, the speakers: Just do as you are told. And the one that is doing the telling is the source material.
Last night I listened to an old Queen CD, A Night at the Opera, starting on track 9 "Love of my LIfe". This CD is from 1991, not any redo. It brought tears to my eyes. The CD never sounded this good. It doesn't take very long to get emotionally involved with the music when it's delivered correctly. The funny thing is, I'm hearing it better then the guy that was mixing the master back in 1975.
Wayner 8)
-
Last night I listened to an old Queen CD, A Night at the Opera, starting on track 9 "Love of my LIfe". This CD is from 1991, not any redo. It brought tears to my eyes. The CD never sounded this good. It doesn't take very long to get emotionally involved with the music when it's delivered correctly. The funny thing is, I'm hearing it better then the guy that was mixing the master back in 1975.
Wayner 8)
Hey Wayner,
Not to sidetrack this thread, but funny you mention "Queen, Night at the Opera"! I just listened to this in its entirety over the weekend on DVD Audio and it was just breathtaking! I haven't listen to this is a couple years. It was so good sounding, I needed more so I then put on "The Game" also on DVD audio. Not quit as good as NATO, but wow! Very powerful! The distinct placement and sound of the individual instruments is so cool!
I was thinking this would be a great vinyl to disc comparison. I would love someone to bring over a good turntable setup and this album and compare them. I feel it would be hard to beat these on DVD audio!
-
Hi Micheal, Have you ever heard Innuendo? It was Freddie's last record and it is also very good. Not sure if it's on DVD as he was dying from AIDS during the recording sessions. The songs have lyrics about the ordeal "I'm going slightly mad" and others have a tale of Freddie's demise. Also out on LP.
Wayner
-
Lots of folks claim their device has a frequency response of 20-20K. They forget to mention that between 20-250hz, it's down 2 db or there is a 3db rise in the 5K region or that the top end has a risings slope at 12K and drops to -3db at 20K. When you hear such a device, it sounds like someone has fiddled with the tone controls. The balance of sound is skewed.
While this is true of speakers and phono cartridges, it is not true of the vast majority of modern SS electronics, including DACs. (It's not true of the better small-signal tube gear either, although tube amps typically have a large enough output impedance so that their FR is squirrelly into a speaker load.)
It's pretty much trivially easy to get flat FR out of modern electronics. If you don't, it's probably because the designer had some screwy ideas, or wanted his stuff to sound "different."
-
My examples are extreme to get my point across, nonetheless, there are differences in designs and execution of the designs. This is caused by the DAC chips themselves, filtering etc. Obviously, the chip set technology is changing and we get to benefit from the evolution, but it is not chip set alone that makes the DAC.
Wayner
-
Hi Micheal, Have you ever heard Innuendo? It was Freddie's last record and it is also very good. Not sure if it's on DVD as he was dying from AIDS during the recording sessions. The songs have lyrics about the ordeal "I'm going slightly mad" and others have a tale of Freddie's demise. Also out on LP.
Wayner
Oh yes, I have that too, I have even seen Queen twice "Live"! Great shows. But "Innuendo" is not the final Queen with Freddie album. The final Queen with Freddie in his very last days is "Made In Heaven". Freddie struggled to get up and get to the studio but when he did, he gave it all he had to do this album. The rest of the band worked around him and his health to complete this album. If you do not have "Made In Heaven", I certainly recommend this album too. Very sad but very good. It has been 19 years already and Freddie lives on!
-
While this is true of speakers and phono cartridges, it is not true of the vast majority of modern SS electronics, including DACs. (It's not true of the better small-signal tube gear either, although tube amps typically have a large enough output impedance so that their FR is squirrelly into a speaker load.)
It's pretty much trivially easy to get flat FR out of modern electronics. If you don't, it's probably because the designer had some screwy ideas, or wanted his stuff to sound "different."
Exactly what I was thinking when I read that erroneous post.
Rather than read incorrect reasonings for why a particular component may sound like it does from people who don't really know (this includes myself), I would much rather read what Vision DAC owners are hearing with their ears.
-
Rather than read incorrect reasonings for why a particular component may sound like it does from people who don't really know (this includes myself), I would much rather read what Vision DAC owners are hearing with their ears.
Ohhhh, you mean you want listening impressions rather than dogma. :lol: 8)
-
Ohhhh, you mean you want listening impressions rather than dogma. :lol: 8)
It's more that when someone says, "I like this better than that," I may not agree with them, but I can't really argue with them liking it better. (Now when they go from that to saying it _is_ better, then I may object.)
What typically bothers me is when someone likes something better and tries to give a scientific explanation for it and they don't make sense. (I'm not really directing this at Wayner. I think maybe he just misspoke or wasn't clear. I'm more concerned with the organized audio voodoo that's so prevalent.)
You see it in the magazines and on the review web sites a lot. Someone will like an amp, and then state that they think the reason it's better is because it uses XYZ brand filter caps in the power supply. They're basically talking out of their backsides. They have no proof that the amp even sounds better, they don't know how it performs in absolute terms, and they don't know that the brand of caps is what makes it better.
So then you see a statement that a DAC is better than others because it has flat FR. Well, that's not an uncommon feature of DACs. Any DAC should have flat FR. If this DAC sounds better than others, there has to be another reason. That's what I was trying to get at.
I suspect that a major motivation for the Vision DAC was that the prior DACs were based on discontinued parts, forcing a new design. The old design _was_ rather long in the tooth, and there was some evidence that the digital part of it wasn't that great.
Nevertheless, I'm sure there are plenty of measured, objective parameters in which the new design is superior to the old. I'm also sure that Frank had solid, objective reasons guiding him and AVA to the result - the Vision DAC.
As for whether it sounds better or not, that's getting into a kind of grey area. Some will say yes, some no, and some won't hear any difference.
I think what I would say is that if you buy a Vision DAC you're getting Frank's excellent customer service and a piece of equipment that will last you for the next couple of decades.
-
Actually I have enough parts on hand for our previous generation DACs to keep building them for another year or so.
The decision to put the Vision DAC into production now was based upon the value of the sonic quality we could offer our customers now, rather than a "oh my God we are running out of parts."
We just made a few thousand dollars worth of parts obsolete here for ourselves to do this :(
Anyone need a whole lot of NOS DAC parts?
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Perhaps, as I stated before, my first example was extreme, however, the explanation of the difference in sound from one DAC or another, or even the CD players DAC has not been explained. As an example of this, I can A-B my Sony XA20ES CD player's internal DAC with the Vision DAC and the differences are very obvious, within a few seconds. So, if both DACs have the same ruler flat measured response, as some of you may think, then what is the explanation? I have the same transport driving both DACs yet they are worlds apart in dynamics, frequency response (in linear terms), and air. We have to assume the data stream from the transport section is doing it's job, but down stream, things are different. The Vision DAC has a more solid bass response, the Sony's internal DAC is weak in comparison. If one DACs lower frequency response is weaker then the other DACs, what is the explanation other then the linearity of the DAC chip set or analog section, then one has to assume it to be not ruler flat.
Wayner
-
Wayne, you are probably hearing thermal feedback distortion in your Sony CD player output section.
This will not show up on frequency response tests (most musical differences are very difficult to measure and IHF tests look at only a small sub-set of all the issues).
However what is happening is that the heat generated internally in the active devices by trying to process low frequency signals significantly affects the linearity of the process dynamically. The bass looses power and definition. Actually the effect can extend throughout the audible range. This is quiet easy to observe in a power amp by looking at the output of the voltage amp section trying to drive the current amp section. You can see the feedback loop trying to make a mush like low frequency impossibe correction.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Wayne, you are probably hearing thermal feedback distortion in your Sony CD player output section.
This will not show up on frequency response tests (most musical differences are very difficult to measure and IHF tests look at only a small sub-set of all the issues).
However what is happening is that the heat generated internally in the active devices by trying to process low frequency signals significantly affects the linearity of the process dynamically. The bass looses power and definition. Actually the effect can extend throughout the audible range. This is quiet easy to observe in a power amp by looking at the output of the voltage amp section trying to drive the current amp section. You can see the feedback loop trying to make a mush like low frequency impossibe correction.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
Could you pursue this at some point? Like maybe have Wayner bring over his CD player and verifying it has problems in this respect?
It would also be interesting if you could have two otherwise identical circuits, with one of them exhibiting this problem, and then listen to them and see what the difference is.
Is the cure as simple as putting a heatsink on some active devices, or choosing devices with higher ratings? Or adding a high-pass filter at the input of the section that's getting into trouble? (The sack of potatoes principle.) :)
-
You cannot measure this effect with op-amps as there is no way to access the internal voltage amp output.
However in an appropriate circuit you can hear the effect by playing with both the AD847 and AD817 linear op-amps. They are essentially identical in design except that the 817 has a larger die area for the current amp section and thus less thermal feedback distortion.
Simply A-B them for bass linearity, power, and extension in identical circuits.
Slapping appropriate heat sinks on all the devices might help a bit, but the effect occurs on every musical cycle, probably too quickly to port the heat out of the mix.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Have been living now for a couple of weeks with the new Vision DAC and the Insight Double 240. Wow! Another order of magnitude improvement in purity and clarity. For example, it's easier now to pick out an instrument in the orchestra and follow its melody line. It doesn't get swallowed up with the rest. I think this separation of instruments is what people mean by "air." You can tell when an oboe takes over from a clarinet that much better. As others have noted, I was a little concerned at first about loss of ambience (what I used to think of as "air"), but my unscientific guess is what we have here is significantly increased dynamic range. If you set the volume so that the louder passages are what you're used to, the quieter ones (e.g., hall sound) will fall below the noise level of your listening room. But when I crank it up to about 2:30, I get not only ambience galore but also pants leg flapping bass. I love it! Good thing I live in a house made of poured, reinforced concrete. Might be a little tough on the neighbors in the summer with the windows open at midnight, though. Way to go, Frank & Co.! Thanks heaps! :thumb: :beer: :singing: :dance: :banana piano:
-
But when I crank it up to about 2:30, ...
Wow, 2:30, just wow.
(Is that AM or PM?)
Good thing I live in a house made of poured, reinforced concrete.
No kidding. My house would be a pile of rubble.
Happy listening.
-
That's great, plaf26. I totally agree with your observations about the great clarification of musical lines that Frank's gear offers.
Congratulations, and enjoy the "new" tunes!
-
Have been living now for a couple of weeks with the new Vision DAC and the Insight Double 240. Wow! Another order of magnitude improvement in purity and clarity. For example, it's easier now to pick out an instrument in the orchestra and follow its melody line.
Your not allowed to talk about improvement in purity and clarity after a couple of weeks - according to wayne your hearing things and your just getting used to the sound. Its borderline ridiculous to say that the dac doesn't improve over time - Your right the seperation is very special - Im glad im not the only that heard lovely seperation after a couple of weeks.
-
I will admit that I "am just hearing things!"
Years ago, I bought a pair ADS L810 speakers. (Geez, I wonder what ever happened to that company?) After a while, I grew to not liking their high frequencies - a bit harsh. Then after a while, I started getting into the AVA equipment. Over the years of listening to components recommended by Frank, the stereo equipment "sounded better and better." I read all his old Audio Basics newsletters which would describe what he was listening to, e.g. an "awww" sound in speakers which shouldn't be there.
So over the years by listening to Van Alstine equipment, I began to familiarize myself (it's called learning!) with what good sound sounds like. Now, I am a very good judge of finding faults in stereo equipment. Sometimes I can even tell you which one of the components is the culprit in an unfamiliar system.
I really don't understand why audiophiles are SO offended by the fact that we are humans and just might be able to learn by listening?
As another example, never having really listened before, do you think that any of us would be able to hear the difference between a good modern violin and a Stradivarius? Probably not, but I'm sure that any of us could learn how to do so.
Scientific research has recently shown that the brain changes well into adult years. Yes, we can learn and hear things that we couldn't before. It's called learning and there's nothing wrong with that!
-
Can someone post a pic of this new DAC?
-
Pete,
Back on page 4 of this thread Wayner posted an enhanced pic of what the EC version would look like, and the basic unit looks the same as the Ultra Dac.
-
The Vision EC DAC is shipping right now. You know, the model with two coax and two optical switchable inputs. XLR balanced line out is also now available.
The new faceplates, back labels, and circuits are all completed and work great.
Several orders that have been waiting will be shipped within a week now as we get them all built and tested.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
one really nice thing about the vison dac - is that it keeps everything really tidy and in order - there are hardly any ruff edges - expecially with good recordings - in other words compared to the bryston dac 1 - this dac really holds it own - its so hard to seperate them in terms of performance
Id even go as far as saying that the vision dac overall is a scooche better - for overall musicality - not night and day - but the vision costs a lot less than the bryston the last time i looked.
Im just saying - anyone looking for a dac in the $2000-$3500 range - this one seems very competetive - at least to the bryston :D
-
- in other words compared to the bryston dac 1 - this dac really holds it own -
I mean the bcd -1 (cd player)
-
So I called my insurance company to see if I could claim a vision DAC as necessary equipment for my eyes.....
sadly they don't. :(
-
Is BNC input available as an option? I have a transport that has BNC output.
-
The Vision DAC has everything but BNC jack inputs. We can't provide all possible input combinations at a rational price and keep the musical qualilty too.
However BNC to RCA adaptor cable ends are available inexpensively at Radio Shack.
I suppose we could supply a BNC input on a special order (satisfaction guarantee waved) for about $50 extra. We would have to go buy the part, hand modify the chassis, and then get a RCA to BNC adaptor for testing too.
By the way, I notice that my BNC fittings on my scope are more prone to signal dropouts than the RCA jacks we use.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Is BNC input available as an option? I have a transport that has BNC output.
I had very good results using the BNC-to-RCA adapter on previous electronics.
-
Is BNC input available as an option? I have a transport that has BNC output.
$1.79 plus shipping from MCM:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/33-510
-
I've read in a number of places that BNC termination is best, but honestly I have no idea and wanted to ask. I'm sure an adapter will work just fine.
-
I've read in a number of places that BNC termination is best,
Agreed, we have all read those reports as well. Whether we can actually hear the difference is the next thing. I never could but YMMV.
-
Any of the measurements for this DAC published yet?
-
It's in the normal chassis as the other, older DACs, and the Vision EC DAC has a selector knob on the front face plate, where the normal selector switch location is on the preamps, to select one of 2 toslink or 2 coax inputs on the back.
See link: http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/dac/insight_dac.htm
Wayner :D
-
I should have been more specific. I was curious about measurements of the sound and outputs not the dimensions of the box. THD+N, etc...
-
Check the AVA website www.avahifi.com (http://www.avahifi.com) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) #2 regarding Frank's approach to specifications.
I should have been more specific. I was curious about measurements of the sound and outputs not the dimensions of the box. THD+N, etc...
-
I should have been more specific. I was curious about measurements of the sound and outputs not the dimensions of the box. THD+N, etc...
roscoe,
Here is a very breif quote from Frank's original post regarding his new DAC:
The design has a 2000 volt per microsecond slew rate and less than 0.0003 percent harmonic distortion.
Give Frank a call. He is more than helpful, and can answer questions in great detail. The same detailed answers may be a total pain in the ass to try and write herein. :thumb:
Have fun,
Jerry
-
By the way, here is a picture of the new Vision EC DAC:
(http://www.samsonlepcha.com/avahifi/images/stories/ava/dac/vision-ec-dac-12.png)
and the back side:
(http://www.samsonlepcha.com/avahifi/images/stories/ava/dac/ec_dac/vision-ec-jacks.jpg)
Wayner :D
-
Wayne, what is the rear panel material overlayed on the metal back panel?
Steve
-
It's our standard label material (polycarbonate), laser etched (white under black, remove black, have white) with topics and has a P.S.A. to complete the application. This is the same label stuff that we have been using for years.
Wayner
-
Just as a clarification, the label material you see in the photo of the back panel of the Vision EC preamp is as Wayne describes.
The much smaller individual product ID labels with serial numbers and details of options, etc., are made in house as needed and are not as heavy duty as the overall product back panel labels as shown.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
I would like to add that my Vision EC DAC plays very nicely with the optical out of an Apple Airport Express (802.11n version). Many of the DACs out there are having major issues with dropouts when connected to an Airport Express, but it seems that the Wolfson 8742 chip set used in the AVA is not having any problems.
Thanks Frank and Company!
-
How do you like having 4 selectable inputs (2 coax, 2 toslink) and switchable from the front?
Wayner
-
How do you like having 4 selectable inputs (2 coax, 2 toslink) and switchable from the front?
Wayner
2 coax + 2 toslink was a must have for me. Even a simple setup these days can have some combination of a Blu-Ray/DVD/CD/SACD player, music server (Airport Express/Squeezebox), computer, Apple TV, Wadia iPod transport, cable/satellite TV/Tivo, etc. Having controls on the front is also a must have, otherwise, nothing would ever get switched. :thumb:
-
Any plans to do DAC with DSD upsampling ? I think Wolfson chips may be capable of doing DSD?
-
Pardon me for my stupidity but I can't seem to find the dimensions of the DAC. I'm sure it's there somewhere. Easier for me to ask my AudioCircle BUDS!.
Cheers
Charlie
-
Pardon me for my stupidity but I can't seem to find the dimensions of the DAC. I'm sure it's there somewhere. Easier for me to ask my AudioCircle BUDS!.
Cheers
Charlie
If your disc player or computer has an optical output, then the multiple input Vision EC DAC is for you. The Vision EC provides two optical and two coax switchable inputs. Both models are available factory wired only, 17" wide, 12" deep, 3.5" high, 12 pounds.http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=247&Itemid=240&74a0ad6b5f7a1df0ef4ab98b8fffbb41=13d9edff3bb589b0ee5d37d19351633b
-
jtwarce:
Thank you.
Cheers
Charlie
-
UPS delivered my new Vision Hybrid Dac today. Been listening to it for an hour or so.
Question!!
How come my CD player has more gain when it's playing than when I use it as a transport and I'm listening to tunes through the Dac.
Cheers
Charlie
-
Congrats on the new DAC! :D
-
How come my CD player has more gain when it's playing than when I use it as a transport and I'm listening to tunes through the Dac.
Your CD transport has no gain at all. It just sends the raw digital data to a DAC.
If it sounds louder when listening to the analogue outputs of the player than when used through the Vision DAC, it means that the internal DAC and audio circuits have more gain than the Vision DAC.
-
Sure is confusing. I'm not sure yet if I'd prefer to listen to just the CD player or the CD player used as a transport going through the DAC. Maybe in a few weeks I'll have made up my mind. Hope my youngest daughter can come and listen. She has very excellent hearing. None better!!!
Cheers
Charlie
-
Sure is confusing. I'm not sure yet if I'd prefer to listen to just the CD player or the CD player used as a transport going through the DAC. Maybe in a few weeks I'll have made up my mind. Hope my youngest daughter can come and listen. She has very excellent hearing. None better!!!
Cheers
Charlie
Stereo shops used to (still do?) play one brand louder than the other to get the person to buy the higher profit margin (louder) component.
A better way to compare is to listen to your new Vision DAC for at least a couple of weeks and only then put the old CD player back on to compare.
-
A better way to compare is to listen to your new Vision DAC for at least a couple of weeks and only then put the old CD player back on to compare.
That's an excellent suggestion. Sometimes it's really easy to spot whether something is different, a bit harder to accurately decide whether it is an overall improvement. Sometimes, it's not so easy to explain the difference, which leads to psychoacoustic grammatical congestion.
If you really like the DAC, then you will miss it when you take it out of your audio chain, specially once you're used to it. You can make up the words to explain it later. :dunno:
PGC, a common malady of our times... anyway, when I got my ultradac and did the instantaneous a/b test against the dacmagic, I would have "honestly" stated that it hardly made a difference. But as the song progressed, something in the mood was very different, and much better!
-
The Vison DAC has two volts peak to peak output with all bits turned on.
This might be a bit lower than some other DACs. We did it this way because this allowed us to design the analog filter and audio output sections without needing any voltage gain devices. All that are used are very (.0003% THD) low distortion current amplifiers with no feedback necessary at all.
Thus in making direct AB comparisons with other DACs or with the digtal sections built into CD or DVD players themselves, it is advisable to match levels as closely as practical to get a reasonable sonic comparison. Too often, the loudest unit will seem to sound best even when it obviously is not best when the listening levels are matched.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Thanks for the tech info. I didn't understand why it was that way. All hooked up playing. Sounds real good.
Is there a break in time? Or is that subject more snake oil B.S.
Cheers
Charlie
-
Thanks for the tech info. I didn't understand why it was that way. All hooked up playing. Sounds real good.
Is there a break in time? Or is that subject more snake oil B.S.
Cheers
Charlie
Pm sent. 8)
-
Yeah, there's a break-in time for your ears! :lol:
It took me years of listening to AVA equipment to finally tell how bad most other stereo equipment sounds! :lol:
-
Hi Guys:
I've had my Vision Hybrid DAC since June 22. It has lot of break in hours now. I really can't say that now it sounds better than when I first got it hooked up and running. But I sure can say it is one Hell of a Dac. The best I've owned. It has replaced an aplhifi(Alex Peychev)DAC. An older model about five years old that sounds very good. But not as good as Frank's Vision Hybrid DAC. Plus Frank's is $2500.00 cheaper than what the aplhifi DAC was new. So if all you guys know of anybody that is looking for a DAC please steer them in the right direction. That would be Frank Van Alstine.
Cheers
Charlie
-
Hi Charlie,
Are you planning to give us a little more detail re. your impressions? I ask only because I'm thinking of ordering one myself; I'm close, but not 100% certain.
Did you buy the DAC with the captive power cord?
Wally King
-
Wally:
It is very,very hard for anybody to describe what they are hearing. A professional writer does a decent job of doing so. But no matter what a writer says if your in the market for audio gear you should listen before you buy. Can't do that anymore. Audio stores are becoming a thing of the past. Frank and most internet sales company give a thirty day try out period.
In my system everything just sounds so much better. Much more detail. Vocalists sound more like the real thing I hear at one of their concerts. Piano and twinkle sounds grab my attention. What more can I say? I am very impressed with the DAC. Is it as good as a 10K DAC?. Hell I don't know. Is it as good as DAC's in its price range?. It is better than DAC's in its price range. In the past ten years I've listened to a lot of DAC's and a few come close but Frank's is still the best. I highly recommended you give this DAC a try. I know that you will be impressed.
Cheers
Charlie
-
My Vision Hybrid should arrive tomorrow and I am looking forward to it. I will report after I've got some hours on it.
I've lost count of how many DAC's I have owned and tried over the years. Can't beat a 30 day trial as it is really the only way to know a piece of gear will sound in your system.
-
Bottom line, I was hoping to get an excellent DAC for less than the $2000 the hybrid will set me back. I know ... I could buy the regular Vision DAC, but then I'd always be wondering what I was missing by not having the hybrid.
But, the hybrid DAC will be my 4th piece of AVA gear, my previous AVA purchases have never failed to work perfectly, and I like the ability to send the DAC back for future upgrades, since DAC technology seems to be moving faster than just about anything else in the audiophile world.
Pardales, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think when you get rexceiev yours.
Charlie, what digital cable are you using?
Wally King
-
Wally:
Just saw your post this morning. I'm using a bluejeans coax digital cable.
Cheers
Charlie
-
I like to give myself lots of time before I report, especially with new gear. Consider this preliminary but after a couple of weeks and a couple of hundred hours of living with the Vision Hybrid, I am very pleased. I need a few more weeks still but at this point I think it is the best DAC I have had in my system in a number of years.
-
I like to give myself lots of time before I report, especially with new gear. Consider this preliminary but after a couple of weeks and a couple of hundred hours of living with the Vision Hybrid, I am very pleased. I need a few more weeks still but at this point I think it is the best DAC I have had in my system in a number of years.
Me Too!!!!!
Cheers
Charlie
-
I continue to be amazed with my Vision Hybrid DAC, which replaced the Insight+ DAC (no slouch) last February, and have had plenty of time to get used to it.
-
I bought the Vision EC DAC around Christmas during Franks Holiday sale.
At that time I hadn't heard about a Vision Hybrid DAC but with the sale and all, I don't
think it would have been in my price range anyhow.
I am using Blue Jeans Coax and just ordered one of their optical cables. The EC DAC has two
Coax and two Optical Inputs. So with my transport, CATV converter, DVD Player and the
upcoming Squeezebox Touch, I have all four inputs utilized.
The Vision DAC has an amazing sound. I continue to be amazed at how good it is.
Currently I am using a stand-in solid state NAD preamp and a stock Dyna ST70 amp.
My next goal is one of Franks Tube Pre's, and someday trade up for a Hybrid DAC.
I continue to hear great stuff about them.
Maybe after RMAF I will order the preamp.
James
-
James:
I have Frank's Avastar preamp. IMHO It's a KILLER!!!!. I haven't heard anything that would make me sell it and possibly get an inferior preamp. No matter what the experts say.
Cheers
Charlie
-
James,
What happened to your Mac pre-amp?
-
Sorry for the delayed response.
The C28 needs a rebuild. It has been a wonderfully warm and faithful preamp for many
years for a solid state. And it did look good under the MR78 Tuner with the matching cabinets.
A rebuild, competently done could be 600 -800 bucks, and I really want an AVA T8.
Time for a Tube Preamp to feed the Dyna 'saur.
James
-
James:
I have Frank's Avastar preamp. IMHO It's a KILLER!!!!. I haven't heard anything that would make me sell it and possibly get an inferior preamp. No matter what the experts say.
Cheers
Charlie
Charlie,
I wish I could swing an Avastar.
And if they really were experts, they would be agreeing with you. :)
James
-
Hey everyone, I just wanted to put in my compliments to Frank on a wonderful dac! I got the ec vision dac and I really love this dac in my speaker setup as it makes the music sound even nicer :) Great stuff and merry christmas to everyone!
Crazy Nocturne
-
Has anyone compared the optical out from a Mac (or other source) to the coax from the same source?
-
We of course have tested all our DACs with optical, coax, and USB sources and cannot hear any difference between them, other than the fact that optical from the Mac mini-jack is only good to 96/24 as I remember. For USB we have used the Ministreamer (good to 96/24), the Kingrex UC192 (good to 192/24), and very recently the XMOS board (also good to 192/24). The next step is to try the XMOS with Windows on a PC and see how well their needed drivers work with the PC. They are not necessary with a recent Mac.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
PS We still feel that the real secret is well recorded material in the first place, not the bit rate of playback.
-
Frank,
Are you searching to be able to offer a universal internal high resolution USB input option for your DACs?
We of course have tested all our DACs with optical, coax, and USB sources and cannot hear any difference between them, other than the fact that optical from the Mac mini-jack is only good to 96/24 as I remember. For USB we have used the Ministreamer (good to 96/24), the Kingrex UC192 (good to 192/24), and very recently the XMOS board (also good to 192/24). The next step is to try the XMOS with Windows on a PC and see how well their needed drivers work with the PC.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
Correct, we would like to find as transparent (musically and user friendly) USB input option possible for our DACs.
The annoying fact that Windows does not support 192/24 without external software drivers is a significant issue. Who's drivers works best and bug free with which version of the basic operating systems?
With a Mac, its no sweat, no drivers needed at all.
My digital expert will be back home here from Turkey for a few months starting in February and I expect he will come up with the best possible solution for us.
Of course then there is always 384/36 or whatever, to worry about. Its probably not possible to keep up with the latest and greatest in a rational and cost effective way.
The sad thing is that although 192/24 has useful characteristics in the recording process, it is essentially redundant in playback. Over and over again it has been shown that there is no musical difference possible to hear over standard redbook during playback. So we are investing in technology that really does nothing at all for you except give you bigger numbers to be excited about. Its almost back to the 16 inch woofers are better than 12 inch woofers and 7 channels are better that 2 channels marketing game all over again.
Frank
-
My digital expert will be back home here from Turkey for a few months starting in February and I expect he will come up with the best possible solution for us.
Well if this expert can enforce a uniform never-to-be-changed-again plug format for USB, then, yeah...
Frank, your big problem here is that you build your DAC to play for 30 years, which is inconsistent with the ob$olence industrial practice of (some) computer guys.
I guess USB is "nice" because you can plug in the proverbial universal device. But dear listener, if you are spending $N,000 on a stereo nice enough to come from AVA, why not spend an extra $N00 on a proper digital music server and inherit a zillion benefits?
Looks like AVA inherits the "benefit" of some backward thinking, like all DAC manufacturers. Looks like you might need that tide-bucking paddle again, Frank. :weights:
-
Since AVA custom builds each unit to a specific customer order, I consider it an astute business decision to also offer popular integrated input/output connection options to meet market demands and therefore sell more units. In the case of DACs, the market for USB DACs is growing and it makes sense to be able to also compete in that market.
Correct, we would like to find as transparent (musically and user friendly) USB input option possible for our DACs...
Frank
-
Is there a 192/24 usb/spdif converter you particularly like with a mac?
-
I am very happy with the Kingrex UC192 free standing box.
It accepts USB in and 192/24 output via S/PDIF coax. Combine that with Fidelia as your Mac music player and you are all set to go completely seamlessly.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
-
The sad thing is that although 192/24 has useful characteristics in the recording process, it is essentially redundant in playback. Over and over again it has been shown that there is no musical difference possible to hear over standard redbook during playback. So we are investing in technology that really does nothing at all for you except give you bigger numbers to be excited about.
Frank
Frank:
This comment almost went under my audio-radar. Are you of the belief that playback at 16/44.1 will sound the same as 24/96? That sure opens up a can of worms to the Hirez believers!! I, for one, cannot tell the difference between the the 2 bitrates/resolution and I am constantly having arguments (albeit very friendly!) with my audio friends. I would love for you to elaborate.
-
Frank:
This comment almost went under my audio-radar. Are you of the belief that playback at 16/44.1 will sound the same as 24/96? That sure opens up a can of worms to the Hirez believers!! I, for one, cannot tell the difference between the the 2 bitrates/resolution and I am constantly having arguments (albeit very friendly!) with my audio friends. I would love for you to elaborate.
I think he means the dithered down sound from 88, 96, 176 or 192. The sound of a recording played back at 24 bits is the big jump in all aspects of sound. That's where the computer is key.
-
Quote from: Spirit on 6 Jan 2012, 03:45 PM
Frank:
This comment almost went under my audio-radar. Are you of the belief that playback at 16/44.1 will sound the same as 24/96? That sure opens up a can of worms to the Hirez believers!! I, for one, cannot tell the difference between the the 2 bitrates/resolution and I am constantly having arguments (albeit very friendly!) with my audio friends. I would love for you to elaborate.
----
I think he means the dithered down sound from 88, 96, 176 or 192. The sound of a recording played back at 24 bits is the big jump in all aspects of sound. That's where the computer is key.
Maybe Frank will elaborate but in one of his old Audio Basics newsletters, he said that the math of a 16bit/44.1 redbook digital signal can perfectly reproduce 20-20K HZ (and beyond) with a dynamic range of 120 db if done right. (Remember a jet taking off is 130 db with 125 db giving you instant permanent hearing damage. 0db? You're lucky to find any place in this world that's as quiet as 10 or 20 db.)
-
Yeah to get that kind of noise floor I think you need a vacuum bubble and before you know we'll be like the pods in The Matrix.
btw have I mentioned how fantastic one of Frank's DACs sounds through one of his amps? :thumb:
-
This may be the wrong thread but has anyone done any comparisons of the Vision DAC to other DACs in the same price range?
I'm looking to add a DAC and I'm debating between the Benchmark DAC1, the Peachtree iDAC, the EE minimax plus and the Vision DAC.
Does anyone have experience with any of these that can relate their thoughts? Thanks.
-
Mrlittlejeans,
I just recently replaced my AVA Ultra II hybrid DAC with a new AVA FET VALVE HYBRID DAC. If my thoughts on the differences are of interest to you, then look for my review coming soon.
-
This may be the wrong thread but has anyone done any comparisons of the Vision DAC to other DACs in the same price range?
I'm looking to add a DAC and I'm debating between the Benchmark DAC1, the Peachtree iDAC, the EE minimax plus and the Vision DAC.
Does anyone have experience with any of these that can relate their thoughts? Thanks.
I have a Vision EC DAC, but unfortunately I've never compared it to any of those three DACs. All the DACs I used before, Devilsound and HRT among them, were much less expensive. The Vision blows them all away, but of course it's in a whole different league. Fellow Audiocircler pardales has a lot of experience with different DACs, including both the Vision EC and Vision Hybrid, maybe shoot him a PM.
Cornelis
-
I am very happy with the Kingrex UC192 free standing box.
It accepts USB in and 192/24 output via S/PDIF coax. Combine that with Fidelia as your Mac music player and you are all set to go completely seamlessly.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
Hi Frank, as per your recommendation for this setup I just downloaded the Fidelia music player for my iMac (2012 model running OS X 7.4) on a 15 day trial. It plays my iTunes library just fine but I can't see where to set the output to USB - I wanted to do that before springing for the Kingrex UC192. I've gone to the Fidelia > Preferences > Output and under Audio output I can see only 3 options 'Built-in Output', Soundflower (2ch) and Soundflower (16ch) but no USB option. Your thoughts (or anyone else with an idea) would be most appreciated!
-
It plays my iTunes library just fine but I can't see where to set the output to USB - I wanted to do that before springing for the Kingrex UC192. I've gone to the Fidelia > Preferences > Output and under Audio output I can see only 3 options 'Built-in Output', Soundflower (2ch) and Soundflower (16ch) but no USB option.
You will only see a USB option listed when you have a USB audio interface connected to the Mac.
Steve
-
You will only see a USB option listed when you have a USB audio interface connected to the Mac.
Steve
Great, thanks Steve!
Also, just did some google searching for the kingrex uc192 - seems like available online only from UK and Australia. Anyone have a source here in North America where this can be purchased?
-
Great, thanks Steve!
Also, just did some google searching for the kingrex uc192 - seems like available online only from UK and Australia. Anyone have a source here in North America where this can be purchased?
I looked too and found the same thing. A place in (I think) Illinois called Pacific Valve is carrying a Kingrex 384 that I haven't seen online anywhere before. They're also carrying one from MTech called the HiFace 2. I made the mistake of buying the original MTech HiFace because they claimed to be working on Linux drivers, but they never appeared. The new MTech HiFace 2 will supposedly support Linux out of the box. I'm not getting one until I've sold the original HiFace, though, and I read multiple reports from multiple sources of the HiFace 2 actually working on Linux.
On a marginally related note - anyone want to buy an unused (but not technically speaking - new) MTech HiFace? The original that is supposed to work fine on the mac and windows, but not linux?
-
Has anybody been able to do 88.2kHz natively, yet? I tried a sample 24/88 file, played through a demo of Audirvana on the Mac. The Mac is connected to the Vision EC DAC via the optical input. Audirvana seems to think the DAC can do 44, 48, and 96, but it won't let me directly output to 88. Is the limitation the Mac or the DAC? Help!
I was thinking about buying something like the HiFace2 (which has the XMOS board in it - no drivers needed on Mac/Linux). Would I be able to play an 88.2 file natively with an asynchronous USB to S/PDIF converter? Please share your success stories (or failures). Thanks!
-
Take a look at your DAC owner's manual and move the jumper on the DAC board so it connects both protruding pins.
Frank
-
Reply to Math Geek:
I downloaded the first George Thorogood album in 88.2 from HD Tracks. I have played it through my dacs using an USB Kingrex interface with fubar2000 and using my squeeze box touch without issue. Also you don't have to move the dac jumper unless you are going above 96 khz.
Regards,
Dean
-
Take a look at your DAC owner's manual and move the jumper on the DAC board so it connects both protruding pins.
Frank
Frank,
I thought that was only for 176 and 192 kHz.
Also, did you ever install an XMOS board for any customers and get feedback from them?
Dean,
Do you know for certain that the Kingrex was outputting 88.2kHz/24bit? Audirvana would play at 96kHz after some on-the-fly converting. Sounded ok, but I wasn't overwhelmed. What do you have the Kingrex plugged into, Mac, PC, or Linux. If Mac/Linux, does it need drivers?
Thank you both for your help.
-
I only use the Kingrex at shows or at the shop. I don't know what the output was from the Kingrex.
Regards,
Dean
-
The Kingrex (now discontinued) was good up to 192/24 although at trade shows, using Jim Salk's streamer and computer source material, we were only playing 44/16 and some 88/24 material. We used the Kingrex mainly because Jim's streamer only has USB output and we needed to support that with our DAC.
Right now I am evaluating the new USBstreamer board from Mindsp. We have it running just fine on 192/24 material on my engineer's PC using the solftware download that comes free with it. However, it is giving us headaches with my new Macbook Pro computer. It should run fine with it with no drivers needed at all, but we get everything out but sound. I need to try another music program. I am currently using Fidelia and the USBsteamer is not working with that at all right now for some unknown reason. This is driving me a bit crazy so far.
Note that with the jumper connected both pins in an AVA DAC, all bit rates will play just fine. Technically, in that mode the digital filters are not optimized for 44/16 playback, but in listening here it still sounds just fine with the jumper set for high bit rate. There will be some roll off above 16,000 Hz, but if you can hear the difference you have a lot better ears than I do.
Regards,
Frank
-
Frank,
I took your suggestion and switched to hires mode on the DAC. Still no 88.2kHz, so I guess it's my old MacBook Pro's optical out that only wants to do 44/48/96.
What version of OS X are you using with the test board? 10.6 (Snow Leopard) will do integer mode, but on Lion and Mountain Lion, Apple took that out of Core Audio. However, at least Audirvana in the latest beta versions has a work around. Maybe give that a try? Also, is the USBstreamer board USB2.0 compliant and asynchronous?
-
Frank,
I took your suggestion and switched to hires mode on the DAC. Still no 88.2kHz, so I guess it's my old MacBook Pro's optical out that only wants to do 44/48/96.
What version of OS X are you using with the test board? 10.6 (Snow Leopard) will do integer mode, but on Lion and Mountain Lion, Apple took that out of Core Audio. However, at least Audirvana in the latest beta versions has a work around. Maybe give that a try? Also, is the USBstreamer board USB2.0 compliant and asynchronous?
After doing more research, it really was the very old MacBook Pro. Switched back to the non-jumpered setting (96kHz max) on the DAC, grabbed a newer MacBook Pro, and installed Audirvana+. I'm happy to report that I was able to play a sample 88.2kHz/24-bit file with no issues and pretty good sound.