Subs

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hdrider

Subs
« on: 22 Apr 2015, 04:00 am »
OK, loving our 7XRS in walnut but ordered a 8'' sub with Louis. I have had a lot of different subs over the years (M&K, Velodyne ULD-15) and always used the low level method. I can use either the speaker level or line level off the Decware Rachael amp but my question is what are those of you that have subs with your Omega speakers (or any other single driver speaker). I have an Audio Control Richter Scale III that I have used with great success on the Velodyne if needed to EQ the sub. Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? Thank you and happy listening, Chris.

Audiophile58

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Re: Subs
« Reply #1 on: 22 Apr 2015, 08:55 am »
Myself I use high level RCA coming from the preamplifier section,or pre outs This is the truest I have been told for it is the most accurate coming  directly from the sourse signal.  .Iyou will like the Omega Hemp sub
Louis is the only company I have come across where the smaller 8 inch dtiver actual had punch and tuneful.
What many people don't know is that in pro audio Louis is friends with the original Maker of  Hemp
Tubby tone I believe it is called Bass driver used a lot in the pro a Bass community. Hemp fiber has incedible strength per square inch of mass. You will Live it . You may even decide yo get a second one. One thing I might mention mixing brands I personally donot reccomend for the tonal balance alone will be different
Especially using a 8 and a 12 inch driver .two 8 s  has advantages in it's sonic purity and eliminating Bass nulls in the room .your 7xrs and Decware should be very good together. What Decware Amp is it ? I am not familiar with the Audio control Richter scale .  I would for sure give the Deep 8 sub time to breakin and run on it's own
For at least 200 hours Plass some Bassy music  puck out a hand full and repeat the process logg the time per every 24 hours you will hear improvements as the surrounds loosen up. If you donot have a SPL meter buy one  at radio shack or online .this way you can see pressure differences or levels  in your room .
Omega Power.

DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #2 on: 3 May 2015, 02:30 pm »
OK, loving our 7XRS in walnut but ordered a 8'' sub with Louis. I have had a lot of different subs over the years (M&K, Velodyne ULD-15) and always used the low level method. I can use either the speaker level or line level off the Decware Rachael amp but my question is what are those of you that have subs with your Omega speakers (or any other single driver speaker). I have an Audio Control Richter Scale III that I have used with great success on the Velodyne if needed to EQ the sub. Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? Thank you and happy listening, Chris.

hdrider,

I suspect not too many responses here because not many here have actually done a direct comparison between Low Level (interconnects) and Speaker Level (speaker wire) Sub connections. I have done an A/B comparison several times using my Peachtree 220se integrated amp with Pre-outs, Omega Super 6 Monitors and twin Hsu Mid Bass Modules. My Mid Bass module are basically a poor mans DeepOmega 12. I hope to upgrade to the DeepOmega 12 in the future.

There is no doubt that in my system Speaker Level connections sound better. The integration is absolutely seamless (Omegas & Mid Bass Modules sound as one). On the other hand low level connection via interconnects sounded as though bass from the speaker and Mid Bass Modules were disconnected and separate (more than a bit distracting). I'm not sure why so many (Hsu included) recommend Low Level over Speaker Level connections. Check this link in Favor of Speaker Level.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/pages/Using-a-Subwoofer-in-a-System-with-no-Subwoofer-Output.html

The Decware Rachael amp is a bit different as I recall. I think Steve Deckert was getting a lot of requests for Pre-Outs and what he did was basically tap off the Amps Speaker outputs and step this signal back down to Line Level. This preserved the signature of the Amp as discussed in the above link. So technically speaking with the Rachael, either connection method would have the same result (technically speaking).

Unshielded Low Level interconnects are basically Antenna's. Generally interconnect lengths are minimized and care is taken when routing to minimize the introduction of unwanted noise and or distortion from power sources, power cords and radio frequencies. So why use a 20 foot interconnect to the Sub? Due to the length of the Sub interconnect they are generally shielded to protect against distortion. I don't use shielded interconnects anywhere in my system because to my ear they tend to have a Dull sound.

Let's say you have a Low Level signal of 1.0X (interconnects) connected to your sub and pick up distortion of 0.1X along the way, that's 10% distortion feeding the Sub. On the other hand lets say you have a HighLevel signal (speaker connection) of 10.0X connected to your sub and pick up the same 0.1X distortion along the way, that's 1% distortion feeding the Sub. I just plucked these numbers out of the air but they serve to highlight that Speaker Level connections my be better.

In the end I think you would do well to try both and decide for yourself. In my case I run high quality speaker cables from my Amp to my Mains and then tap from there to my Subs using CAT-5 Network cable. You might have seen this thread over at Decware where I made some suggestions to a fellow forum member on hooking up his Omega Sub.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1427663671/0#0

Good Luck. I look forward to your impressions of the DeepOmega 8 with your 7XRS.



mresseguie

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Re: Subs
« Reply #3 on: 3 May 2015, 05:45 pm »
DBC,

I appreciate your posting this as I have never tried speaker level connection with my sub, but I wish to try it when I return home. [I'll visit CanadaRob's showroom in two days!!!]

Your connection is 'amp to speakers to sub', is this correct? I had been under the impression it ought to be 'amp to sub to speakers ' so the sub could act as a high level filter up to 80 or 100Hz.

Thanks.

Michael

DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #4 on: 3 May 2015, 07:18 pm »
Quote
I had been under the impression it ought to be 'amp to sub to speakers ' so the sub could act as a high level filter up to 80 or 100Hz.

One of the reasons Omega speakers are so resolving & detailed is that they do not have tone killing, transparency robbing crossovers (electronics). So while going through the Sub's crossover sounds good on paper, it will diminish the signal quality going to your speakers.

I liken any electronics in the signal path to a screen door. If you smash a Tomato through a screen door, Technically Speaking it is still a Tomato once on the other side (but in reality, Not Really the same). Over the years I keep re-discovering that simpler is better, and less is more. The fewer interconnects & nonessential electronics in the signal path the better IMO.

I run my Omega 6 Monitors Full Range with a 2 watt Decware Super Zen, they sound great and play plenty loud in a good size room. The Super Zen has tremendous Transparency & Clarity primarily because it has such a small number of electronic parts in the signal path to color the music. I have a very nice Decware Pre-amp that I don't use now that I have the Omega's. When I place the Pre between my source and Amp, the Omegas reveal a slight loss in transparency due to the added electronics. With lesser speakers this loss of transparency is not noticeable.

Go to post #43 in the Decware link I posted above and I describe exactly how I have my Subs connected.

hdrider

Re: Subs
« Reply #5 on: 3 May 2015, 09:02 pm »
DBC- Thanks for the input and your thoughts. I have a Rachael with the pre-outs, a set of very good but long Audioquest IC's from the closet to the speaker wall (one of the side benefits of being in the audio business was deep discount on wire etc.) and also WireWorld 11 gauge quad speaker wire from the closet to the speaker wall. I will try both, but my heart tells me that the speaker level from the Rachael direct to the sub will be the best match. I have always run my main speakers full range (direct from the amp) and the sub/s off the second pre-outs >AudioControl Richter Scale X-over/EQ using the EQ to tailor the low end to the room. I will not put anything in the way of the Decware amp and the 7XRS, I don't want to lose what I have gained in the last three weeks. And once it's all done and said, I bet the Richter Scale goes in the pile of stuff I have posted for sale to reduce clutter and fund new gear (phono cart, DAC, IC's, tube rolling, RECORDS). They system is down this weekend and coming week while contractors are on site, so next Saturday I will get the 7's back on line and be listening to some music again. When I get the sub, I will post some thoughts after I get some hours on it. Happy listening, Chris.

Audiophile58

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Re: Subs
« Reply #6 on: 4 May 2015, 11:41 am »
The signal to the powered subwoofer is very very low level we are speaking in ohms. The preamplifier is
The most accurate signal without question.
Call SVS .Velodyne, or any company why would low level sound better ,then you need to put extra speaker wires in the chain and extra connectors coming off the speaker.
Think about it the signal has to be sent from the preamplifier First before it even gets to the speaker .
Then has to be processed through the Xover network. The original sourse signal without question
Is line or high level in pro audio allways daisy chained with multi subwoofers using XLl.
My uncle has been in pro audio for many years and I just followed what JL audio said .
Remember you are not caring and current like with a speaker wire ,just a low voltage signal to
Direct the subwoofers signal. Thst being said buy a good pair for $ 150-250'a very good pair
$50  you loose articulation and detail in the bass .i had bunches to compare to .the conductors are beefier
As well as isolation and rf rejection . Just call the companies when in doubt.

DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #7 on: 4 May 2015, 06:11 pm »
The signal to the powered subwoofer is very very low level we are speaking in ohms. The preamplifier is
The most accurate signal without question.
Call SVS .Velodyne, or any company why would low level sound better ,then you need to put extra speaker wires in the chain and extra connectors coming off the speaker.
Think about it the signal has to be sent from the preamplifier First before it even gets to the speaker .
Then has to be processed through the Xover network. The original sourse signal without question
Is line or high level in pro audio allways daisy chained with multi subwoofers using XLl.
My uncle has been in pro audio for many years and I just followed what JL audio said .
Remember you are not caring and current like with a speaker wire ,just a low voltage signal to
Direct the subwoofers signal. Thst being said buy a good pair for $ 150-250'a very good pair
$50  you loose articulation and detail in the bass .i had bunches to compare to .the conductors are beefier
As well as isolation and rf rejection . Just call the companies when in doubt.

I'm sure Audiophile58 is well intentioned but I feel compelled to respectfully push back on a few points in his post. Presented is a list of commonly accepted Industry Talking Points. The opinions expressed appear to be based on what other people have told him and not necessairly based on personal experience (comparing Line Level (interconnect) connections to Speaker Level (speaker wire) connections on a Sub in his system). There was a time in the past when I would have accepted these statements without much question.

First of all I think it is important to differentiate between Home Theater Multi-channel systems and basic Two-Channel Music systems with a Sub. I had an expensive Multi-channel HT system with all the Digital bells & whistles. I used all the fancy digital tools and problem was I never could get High Quality music reproduction. Home Theater sounded great but not Music. Needless to say I sold all my HT gear in favor for a much simpler and much better sounding 2-channel music system.

So all of my comments (yes opinions) will be with regard to 2-channel music reproduction only and my personal experience (not something someone told me). The point here is that how you connect a Sub in an HT application is not necessarily the best sounding connection method for a dedicated 2-channel music system based on my personal experience and direct comparisons. Results may vary with different systems but as I stated earlier I think it is worth trying both.

I think Audiophile58's points actually support my original points in favor of Speaker Level connections:

The signal to the powered subwoofer is very very low level we are speaking in ohms. The preamplifier is The most accurate signal without question. Call SVS .Velodyne, or any company why would low level sound better ,then you need to put extra speaker wires in the chain and extra connectors coming off the speaker.

Quote from REL website (http://rel.net/support/faq/): "Unless your amplifier does not allow for High Level Connection we always recommend using the High Level Connection. The purpose of using the High Level Input, instead of the Low Level Input, and connecting to the speaker output terminals is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. By connecting to the high-level input on the REL from the amplifier you build forward the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. In this way, the REL sub is fed the exact signal that is fed to the main speakers. This is a very important point and together with REL’s Active Bass Controller (ABC), ensures far superior system integration of the sub-bass with the main system."

This statement "The preamplifier is The most accurate signal without question." is basically an admission that the signal being sent to the mains via Speaker Level connection is different than the signal being sent to a Sub via Line Level interconnect connection. Every device (source, pre-amp, amp) tend to have a sonic signature. So as REL suggests, when your mains reproduce low frequencies with a Sonic Signature from the amp and the Sub reproduces low frequencies with a different Sonic Signature from the pre-amp the result is not always seamless. In my system the differences between the two connection methods is more than subtle.

Think about it the signal has to be sent from the preamplifier First before it even gets to the speaker .Then has to be processed through the Xover network.

I'm a little confused about extra speaker wires and a crossover network. In my original post I think I was pretty clear that I'm running the Main Speakers Full Range (no crossover to degrade the music signal). Seems to me if you run Left & Right channel interconnects to the Sub or a second set of Left & Right channel speaker wires to the Sub there are no extra wires?

The original sourse signal without question Is line or high level in pro audio allways daisy chained with multi subwoofers using XLl. My uncle has been in pro audio for many years and I just followed what JL audio said . Remember you are not caring and current like with a speaker wire ,just a low voltage signal to Direct the subwoofers signal. Thst being said buy a good pair for $ 150-250'a very good pair $50  you loose articulation and detail in the bass .i had bunches to compare to .the conductors are beefier As well as isolation and rf rejection . Just call the companies when in doubt.

This makes my point that Line Level (interconnect) connections are more susceptible to picking up noise & hum (especially in longer runs). Rather than a $250 interconnect I use inexpensive CAT-5 computer network cable to connect from the amp to the Sub. Cat-5 is designed to reject noise in sensitive computer network systems. The Sub amp draws virtually no current from your main amplifier so small gauge CAT-5 conductors work just fine.

ACHiPo

Re: Subs
« Reply #8 on: 4 May 2015, 07:54 pm »
One of the reasons Omega speakers are so resolving & detailed is that they do not have tone killing, transparency robbing crossovers (electronics). So while going through the Sub's crossover sounds good on paper, it will diminish the signal quality going to your speakers.

I liken any electronics in the signal path to a screen door. If you smash a Tomato through a screen door, Technically Speaking it is still a Tomato once on the other side (but in reality, Not Really the same). Over the years I keep re-discovering that simpler is better, and less is more. The fewer interconnects & nonessential electronics in the signal path the better IMO.

I run my Omega 6 Monitors Full Range with a 2 watt Decware Super Zen, they sound great and play plenty loud in a good size room. The Super Zen has tremendous Transparency & Clarity primarily because it has such a small number of electronic parts in the signal path to color the music. I have a very nice Decware Pre-amp that I don't use now that I have the Omega's. When I place the Pre between my source and Amp, the Omegas reveal a slight loss in transparency due to the added electronics. With lesser speakers this loss of transparency is not noticeable.

Go to post #43 in the Decware link I posted above and I describe exactly how I have my Subs connected.
So the sub(s) are connected to a single channel, i.e. if one sub it's connected to either left or right, and if 2 then left and right?

Canada Rob

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Re: Subs
« Reply #9 on: 4 May 2015, 08:17 pm »
Admittedly not the best picture, but this is how to hook up a sub in a music system if you aren't using a pre-amp that cuts the low frequency to the main amp.  The sub is only taking signal off the amp and the amp sees no additional load from the sub. 

When running speaker level connection, I never daisy chain from amp to sub to speakers



   

DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #10 on: 4 May 2015, 08:18 pm »
Not the best photo but I think you will get the meaning. Top far left are the Speaker Level input terminals for Left & Right input channels (labeled "FROM AMPLIFIER"). If you have a single Sub then run speaker connections from the Left & Right speaker output channels of your amp to the Left & Right Speaker Level input terminals on the sub. The two signals (Left & Right) will be Summed.

In my case I have twin Subs so I simply run the amps Left speaker output channel to the Left Sub and the Right speaker output channel to the Right Sub.


beowulf

Re: Subs
« Reply #11 on: 4 May 2015, 08:38 pm »
How does Louis set up the Outlaws?  From the pics it seems as if he uses jumpers from the speaker's main terminals (speaker level inputs) to the plate amp, is that correct?  This way you can run the main drivers full range and adjust the sub output to your liking?

DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #12 on: 4 May 2015, 10:55 pm »
How does Louis set up the Outlaws?  From the pics it seems as if he uses jumpers from the speaker's main terminals (speaker level inputs) to the plate amp, is that correct?  This way you can run the main drivers full range and adjust the sub output to your liking?

That's correct. In my case I have twin subs sitting next to my mains. I run my favorite speaker cables to the Mains and tap off the main speaker input terminals as shown here and then just a short run to the sub amp. So you can run from your amp to a sub or from your mains to the sub depending on which is more convenient.


DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #13 on: 5 May 2015, 12:10 am »
Quote
Canada Rob wrote:

This is how to hook up a sub in a music system if you aren't using a pre-amp that cuts the low frequency to the main amp.

In some Home Theater circles they claim that using Digital or Electronic filtering to remove lower frequencies from the mains improves sound quality and volume output. This assumes the Digital or Electronic filters being used have no negative impact on the audio signal quality overall. I've done a lot of experimentation with Low Frequency Filters using my Oppo 105D. In my experience this seems to be a Theory that works a lot better on paper than in practice as far as my Music System is concerned.

I always end up going back to running the Mains Full Range and simply using the Sub to Augment the Bass of the mains (play over the low end of the mains). With music I find it easier to dial in the Sub and the result is a more seamless integration (sub does not call attention to itself). The DeepOmega is nice since it can play cleanly up beyond 120hz which can add a lot of POP to drums.

pstrisik

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Re: Subs
« Reply #14 on: 5 May 2015, 01:02 am »
In some Home Theater circles they claim that using Digital or Electronic filtering to remove lower frequencies from the mains improves sound quality and volume output. This assumes the Digital or Electronic filters being used have no negative impact on the audio signal quality overall. I've done a lot of experimentation with Low Frequency Filters using my Oppo 105D. In my experience this seems to be a Theory that works a lot better on paper than in practice as far as my Music System is concerned.

I always end up going back to running the Mains Full Range and simply using the Sub to Augment the Bass of the mains (play over the low end of the mains). With music I find it easier to dial in the Sub and the result is a more seamless integration (sub does not call attention to itself). The DeepOmega is nice since it can play cleanly up beyond 120hz which can add a lot of POP to drums.

Are you referring to active or passive filtering (before or after amplification)?  Seems there would be a big difference.  I'm working on setting up active filtering so the amp benefits from low freq cut.


DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #15 on: 5 May 2015, 06:03 pm »
Are you referring to active or passive filtering (before or after amplification)?  Seems there would be a big difference.  I'm working on setting up active filtering so the amp benefits from low freq cut.

I've used the Paradigm X20 (Speaker Level):



And the Paradigm X30 (Line Level):



I actually still have both units. Although these are powered I think they would qualify as Passive Devices?  In both cases the added electronics in the Signal Path did more to hurt the overall sound quality rather than help. There was a loss of transparency & clarity in my system when adding either device into the mix. The second issue is you become a speaker designer in that you have to figure out how to set the crossover so that Mains and Sub blend seamlessly. If you think this is easy then ask Louis why his speakers are Single Driver with no crossover.

I've also experimented with filtering in the Digital Domain with my current Oppo BDP105D and a B&K Pre-amp / Processor which would be considered Active (Before the Amp). Problem here is not only setting up the Crossover properly but as mentioned earlier the speakers are reproducing low frequencies form the Amp's Sonic Signature and the Sub producing low frequencies from the Pre-amp's Sonic Signature. In my system I could hear a lack of coherency between Mains & sub (I could sense at times where the Mains left off and the Sub picked up which does not sound natural).

pstrisik, please let us know if you have better success than I did.


pstrisik

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Re: Subs
« Reply #16 on: 5 May 2015, 06:30 pm »
I've used the Paradigm X20 (Speaker Level):

<snip>

And the Paradigm X30 (Line Level):

<snip>

I actually still have both units. Although these are powered I think they would qualify as Passive Devices?  In both cases the added electronics in the Signal Path did more to hurt the overall sound quality rather than help. There was a loss of transparency & clarity in my system when adding either device into the mix. The second issue is you become a speaker designer in that you have to figure out how to set the crossover so that Mains and Sub blend seamlessly. If you think this is easy then ask Louis why his speakers are Single Driver with no crossover.

I've also experimented with filtering in the Digital Domain with my current Oppo BDP105D and a B&K Pre-amp / Processor which would be considered Active (Before the Amp). Problem here is not only setting up the Crossover properly but as mentioned earlier the speakers are reproducing low frequencies form the Amp's Sonic Signature and the Sub producing low frequencies from the Pre-amp's Sonic Signature. In my system I could hear a lack of coherency between Mains & sub (I could sense at times where the Mains left off and the Sub picked up which does not sound natural).

pstrisik, please let us know if you have better success than I did.


Great minds!......

I have the X-30 also.  I had similar results and tested with 1kHz tone that it has 4db insertion loss.  I'm figuring (hoping) design/quality issues.

So, with my powered stereo mid-bass units coming along with Super Alnico Monitors (can we nickname them SAMs for ease of typing?) I'm not giving up.  I splurged for a quality active electronic xover from Marchand (http://marchandelec.com/xm66.html).  It does 24db (forth order) slope with adjustable crossover point.  It is a true crossover, not just a high pass filter, so blending should be seamless with its Linkwitz-Riley arrangement.  It even has "damping" for adjusting level just at the crossover point. 

Fingers crossed.  I should have the crossover in a week or so, but still more than a month out of Louis' work on the SAMs and midbass cabinets (with Rythmik drivers and amps).  I will still be able to test the crossover out at least as a HPF with my Super 7 XRS Alnicos to see if there is any noticable benefit and/or degradation.

Stay tuned!  I've been meaning to start a thread for this particular Omega project as well as update the supertweeter thread.

Regarding terminology....  I find it a bit confusing.  It seems the convention is that active crossovers are line level and passive crossovers are speaker level.  I think the active xover term applies whether the unit is powered or not.  But I clarify if there is any ambiguity.

Maybe the active comes from each output going to an amplifier while passive comes from each output going to a driver without further amplification.  :dunno:







DBC

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Re: Subs
« Reply #17 on: 5 May 2015, 07:41 pm »
I wanted to get back to my original intention for posting regarding Sub connection methods. We got a little Off Track on Active & Passive crossovers and Line Level or Speaker Level connections. For a simple 2-channel system it doesn't have to be that complicated.

My Oppo BDP-105 Blu-Ray player feeds an analog signal (interconnects) directly to my Decware Super Zen amp which is of course connected via speaker cables to my Omega 6 Monitors. I extend from the Omega 6 Monitor binding posts with a short length of wire to the speaker level input to my left & right sub.

In this arrangement the Omega 6 Monitors are running Full Range and sound wonderful. The Subs are simply reinforcing (playing over) the lower frequencies of the Mains. Mains and Sub are connected to the exact same audio signal (Speaker Level) that carries the Sonic Signature of the Decware amp. The nice thing is you can tune the Sub (crossover setting & volume setting) to your room and individual musical taste.

It's that simple

HsvHeelFan

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Re: Subs
« Reply #18 on: 5 May 2015, 08:01 pm »
I'm also using speaker level inputs on my old Velodyne sub.   The Velodyne is filling in the bottom that my KEF towers aren't super happy about. 

I tried line level in.

I also did  the y cable off the preamp to the subwoofer and the main amp.  I didn't care for that either.

I also used the Velodyne built in crossover.

Best result was running the Velodyne off the main amp, using the Speaker level connections.

HsvHeelFan


hdrider

Re: Subs
« Reply #19 on: 24 May 2015, 10:35 pm »
Louis shipped my 8'' walnut sub on last Friday, looks to arrive on Monday June 1st. I have both speaker wires from the Rachael to anywhere on the speaker wall  and also shielded IC's so I can try both connections after the sub has some hours on it. Looking forward to having the sub but I must say the 7XRS's are sounding amazing. I must have listened to at least 2'' worth of albums this afternoon while the Mrs. played with paint on the downstairs bathroom vanity and mirror. Thanks Louis for building such a quality line of musical speakers. Happy listening, Chris.