AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: harley.guy07 on 4 Apr 2017, 05:51 am

Title: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: harley.guy07 on 4 Apr 2017, 05:51 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160428)


Looked at the Spatial Audio website tonight and this is on the front page. Very nice! This will be great for the tube guys as it is way more of a realistic load for tube amps unlike the 4ohm load of my M3 t S'S Which can be problematic with some tube amps. It says they are using a new M35 compression driver that is dipolar and crosses over at 700 hertz not 800 like the normal M3, Very much would like to hear them
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: nicoch on 4 Apr 2017, 07:10 am
is not 4ohm the problem!  all tube amp have the 4ohm tap x that...
is the  phase,  a good phase can be have with 4 ohm too
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 4 Apr 2017, 05:41 pm
MANY tube amps (like my Shindo) have nothing but a 16 Ohm output, not 4 OHM.  I plan to see if Spatial will sell an update kit, since I have those speakers.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 4 Apr 2017, 08:37 pm
MANY tube amps (like my Shindo) have nothing but a 16 Ohm output, not 4 OHM.  I plan to see if Spatial will sell an update kit, since I have those speakers.

Not sure if Clayton will sell an upgrade kit, but I definitely know that you can send your current speakers to him to be upgraded.

Also, this upgrade isn't just about being more tube friendly.  The new compression driver will improve the sound regardless if one is using tubes or solid state.

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 4 Apr 2017, 08:42 pm
Not sure if Clayton will sell an upgrade kit, but I definitely know that you can send your current speakers to him to be upgraded.

Also, this upgrade isn't just about being more tube friendly.  The new compression driver will improve the sound regardless if one is using tubes or solid state.

George
As far as I know no kit but fortunately the speakers aren't a bear to ship. Will be boxing mine up for the upgrade shortly.
David
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 4 Apr 2017, 08:53 pm
What is he charging for an upgrade?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 4 Apr 2017, 08:58 pm
What is he charging for an upgrade?
Clayton is going to be posting the details for everyone. He is also working on the details for M4 owners that want to transform them as well.
David
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 5 Apr 2017, 12:33 am
David

Are you having yours transformed into the Triode Master version or just upgrading the compression driver and appropriate parts?  In my case I am not going to use mine with tubes so just upgrading the compression driver, wiring and crossover parts would suffice.  That would seem to be a fairly simple swap for him as opposed to swapping out all the drivers. 

Jack
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 5 Apr 2017, 01:03 am
David

Are you having yours transformed into the Triode Master version or just upgrading the compression driver and appropriate parts?  In my case I am not going to use mine with tubes so just upgrading the compression driver, wiring and crossover parts would suffice.  That would seem to be a fairly simple swap for him as opposed to swapping out all the drivers. 

Jack
Jack,
   Upgrading the compression driver, wiring, and crossover parts makes it a triode master and that is the plan for me. Clayton says it's a quick turnaround.
David
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 5 Apr 2017, 02:07 am
Would interested to how he came to that using those Eminence woofers, but looking forward to hearing your impression and others after the "upgrade."  For me is more interesting than moving to the X-1 with the multiple amps and DSP involved.  Packing mine up might be in the near future.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: nicoch on 5 Apr 2017, 01:59 pm
MANY tube amps (like my Shindo) have nothing but a 16 Ohm output, not 4 OHM.  I plan to see if Spatial will sell an update kit, since I have those speakers.
you are very unlucky ,only 16ohm is very rare... you know that the world standard is 8ohm ?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 5 Apr 2017, 07:07 pm
I called Clayton after seeing the impedance and phase graphs he posted on the Triode Master to get a clearer understanding of the meaning and significance of them. Not being an engineer, I did not have a full appreciation of their importance. I think it would be helpful for those people considering the speaker to get the information he provided and I asked him if he'd post on this thread or on his website and I would post a link to it.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Spatial Audio on 5 Apr 2017, 09:49 pm
I called Clayton after seeing the impedance and phase graphs he posted on the Triode Master to get a clearer understanding of the meaning and significance of them. Not being an engineer, I did not have a full appreciation of their importance. I think it would be helpful for those people considering the speaker to get the information he provided and I asked him if he'd post on this thread or on his website and I would post a link to it.

Hi David,

The key to achieving good loudspeaker matching with tube amplifiers is that the speaker exhibit both high impedance as well a reasonably smooth impedance curve. The phase performance will indicate whether the amp will sound good into a given load. You can see in the graph of the M3 Triode Master that the nominal impedance is around 16Ω with a very flat phase plot. Abrupt changes in the phase curve indicate reactance. An upward tend reveals capacitive reactance, where a downward slope reveals inductive reactance. These variations in the load can change the frequency response of the amplifier and are responsible for the poor sound often encountered when connecting to normal speakers. The M3 TM's high sensitivity of 92dB is of course, a great benefit as well. The efficiency due to the 16Ω load equates to 95dB.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161305)


Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
www.spatialaudio.us

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: debjit.g on 16 Apr 2017, 09:34 pm
Did anybody get their M3/M4 upgraded to Triode Master or anyone got a new one ? If one is using solid state amps, does the TM benefits from it as well ?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 16 Apr 2017, 11:07 pm
Did anybody get their M3/M4 upgraded to Triode Master or anyone got a new one ? If one is using solid state amps, does the TM benefits from it as well ?

Clayton told me that the TM is better than the Turbo S and that you will hear the benefits with both as and tubes.

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: debjit.g on 17 Apr 2017, 04:26 am
Clayton told me that the TM is better than the Turbo S and that you will hear the benefits with both as and tubes.

George

Thanks George. I have the M3 TurboS and excited to see what the Triode master brings in to an already great sounding speaker. Did Clayton tell when the upgrades are available and how to get it ? I had sent him a mail yesterday but didn't hear back - guess he is busy with the upcoming axpona.

On a separate note, what are folks using to power the M3/M4 currently ? I am using Nords monoblock which is nc500 based and it sounds great. When I upgrade to a Triode Master, I am thinking to getting a tube amp and wondering what to get and how much power is required.   
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Manolo on 17 Apr 2017, 07:11 pm
Using First Watt F4 with a Supratek tube ls, superb!
Wonder how much $$$$ forvthe tweeter upgrade.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Flyin_V on 18 Apr 2017, 08:35 am
In the 14 months I've had the M4 Turbo I've had 4 amps on them. A 2A3 set, a Berning ZOTL 10, a Cherry STM and finally a Berning ZOTL 40. The M4 exposed their weaknesses, with the exception of the '40. The speakers sound more linear, punchy and alive with the '40. It's very quiet/detailed, transparent, focused, extremely dimensional with a very open top end. If it fits within your budget, get one, you won't be sorry. Even Clayton has one.

When I talked to Clayton last week he said the M4 mods should be done in 4 weeks or so.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: NavyDoc on 23 Apr 2017, 01:43 pm
Any reports from Axpona on the M3 Triode Master?  They look to be pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Apr 2017, 02:08 pm
Any reports from Axpona on the M3 Triode Master?  They look to be pretty impressive.
They sounded great to me.  $4k.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2017, 06:16 pm
They sounded great to me.  $4k.

Wouldn't expect anything else. 

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: debjit.g on 23 Apr 2017, 08:13 pm
They sounded great to me.  $4k.

Thanks! Could you tell a bit more on the electronics used ?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2017, 08:24 pm
Thanks! Could you tell a bit more on the electronics used ?

Below is what was posted before the show.  I don't know if this was actually used.

George

From GOPHER:

With AXPONA coming next month, it's time to start making some noise about our upcoming plans and partnerships.  This year we will be doing things a little differently and pursing a different line up of great gear to present our offerings with some other fantastic brands.

In our own room we'll be debuting our brand new Golden Atlantic DAC and DSD Komputer as the digital front end/preamplifier.   

For speakers we'll be using Clayton Shaw's wonderful and affordable Spatial M3 Turbo S speakers.
For amplification Linear Tube Audio will be supplying us with a pair of their delicious 40wpc OTL amplifiers
For cables, Verastarr will be showing it's new line of hybrid foil cables.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: debjit.g on 23 Apr 2017, 08:30 pm
So the Turbo S was used instead of the Triode Master ?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: reillyzing on 23 Apr 2017, 08:39 pm
That is an expensive amp and DAC for prospective buyers of the Triode Master to audition the speakers with. :o
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: WC on 23 Apr 2017, 09:01 pm
Sign in room said it was the Triode Master.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2017, 10:03 pm
So the Turbo S was used instead of the Triode Master ?

No.  The Triode Master was used.

Sorry for the confusion.

I did a quick copy and paste from my phone.

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2017, 10:11 pm
That is an expensive amp and DAC for prospective buyers of the Triode Master to audition the speakers with. :o

These speakers (as well as the M3 Turbo S) can be used with a wide range of gear and sound very good.

The better the gear, the better the sound.

I have used the following gear with the M3 Turbo S:

Vinnie Rossi LIO (AVC and DHT with DAC AND Amp)
Sonore MicroRendu
Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp
Auralic Vega DAC
Atsah NC1200 mono amps
Ncore 400 mono amps
Triode Wire Labs cables and power cords
Morrow Audio cables, power cords, and ic's

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: TimS on 24 Apr 2017, 12:55 am
Hi George

Regarding the list below, what, in your opinion, sounded best with the M3's?

These speakers (as well as the M3 Turbo S) can be used with a wide range of gear and sound very good.

The better the gear, the better the sound.

I have used the following gear with the M3 Turbo S:

Vinnie Rossi LIO (AVC and DHT with DAC AND Amp)
Sonore MicroRendu
Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp
Auralic Vega DAC
Atsah NC1200 mono amps
Ncore 400 mono amps
Triode Wire Labs cables and power cords
Morrow Audio cables, power cords, and ic's

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: mirekti on 24 Apr 2017, 03:43 pm
I had a chance to listen to M3TM yesterday and must admit this was one of the best sounding small rooms apart from Harbeth's one and those bigger rooms on the 12th floor.
The only "bad" thing was the soundstage collapsed rather soon after I left the sweet spot, however, sweet spot was heaven. :)
One would really need to have these speakers (or any others) in his own room in order to know whether they are a keeper or not. Spatial is offering 60 day trial period. I guess that's the best way to try it out.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Apr 2017, 03:56 pm
I have never been much of a dipole guy. But wow were those great sounding. Highlight of the show.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rebbi on 12 May 2017, 03:40 pm
Thanks George. I have the M3 TurboS and excited to see what the Triode master brings in to an already great sounding speaker. Did Clayton tell when the upgrades are available and how to get it ? I had sent him a mail yesterday but didn't hear back - guess he is busy with the upcoming axpona.

On a separate note, what are folks using to power the M3/M4 currently ? I am using Nords monoblock which is nc500 based and it sounds great. When I upgrade to a Triode Master, I am thinking to getting a tube amp and wondering what to get and how much power is required.

I just upgraded from the M4 to the M3 Turbo S and I'm powering them with an 8 W, 300B based SET amp - the Audio Note Kits "Kit 1."
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 12 May 2017, 04:53 pm
I just upgraded from the M4 to the M3 Turbo S and I'm powering them with an 8 W, 300B based SET amp - the Audio Note Kits "Kit 1."

And hows that working for you vs the M4 with the 300b?

Once my health gets back to normal, I do plan to bring my Coincident Dynamo mk ll up to Bill's place to see how well it mates with his M3ts.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rebbi on 22 May 2017, 11:05 pm
And hows that working for you vs the M4 with the 300b?

Once my health gets back to normal, I do plan to bring my Coincident Dynamo mk ll up to Bill's place to see how well it mates with his M3ts.

Hi, Wind Chaser,
So sorry for the tardy reply to your question!
I am planning a full review of the M3 Turbo S on my blog once I have close to 100 hours on the Spatial's - right now I'm at around 60 hours. But I can say at this point that I've been very pleased so far. Since they're rated a tad more efficient than the M4's, driving them is no problem. But they bring "more" of everything than the "standard" M4's brought to the table: more open, more resolving, more expansive soundstage, etc.
I, too, am very curious about the new Triode Master, especially about the contribution of that dipole compression unit!
Hope your health is better!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 24 May 2017, 11:51 pm
I just shipped my M3 Turbo S speakers to Clayton for an upgrade to the Triode Master.  I can barely wait.  Has anyone here received an upgraded pair back yet that you could tell us about?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: cfisher835 on 25 May 2017, 02:10 am
So how much is the upgrade from M3 to Triode Master?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 25 May 2017, 03:25 am
I just shipped my M3 Turbo S speakers to Clayton for an upgrade to the Triode Master.  I can barely wait.

In what respect are they different from each other?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: CSI on 25 May 2017, 03:25 am
So how much is the upgrade from M3 to Triode Master?

I believe it is $1295/pair. Go to the M3 Triode Master page on the website and you will find the details listed. Clayton tells me there will be a Triode Master upgrade for the M4's soon (great news for me) as soon as they get caught up with the M3 upgrade orders. Hopefully by July.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 25 May 2017, 04:08 am
FYI, it cost $240 for Fedex ground from Shreveport to Utah.  So $1535 total for my upgrade.  I have been using a Speltz autoformer to mate my 16 ohm amp output to the 4 ohm speakers, so the 16 ohm factor was not crucial to me.  But the fact that this makes the speaker a true dipole through all frequencies has me excited and is the reason the upgrade is worth it (hopefully) to me.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: SFDude on 25 May 2017, 02:48 pm
Anticipating your review glynnw when you get it back. I don't know whether the differences make it worth the price of upgrade or not so it's helpful to understand what those comparisons are.

I could go other routes with the ~$1500 in the never-ending upgrade process.  :o
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Goosepond on 25 May 2017, 08:50 pm
FYI, it cost $240 for Fedex ground from Shreveport to Utah.  So $1535 total for my upgrade.  I have been using a Speltz autoformer to mate my 16 ohm amp output to the 4 ohm speakers, so the 16 ohm factor was not crucial to me.  But the fact that this makes the speaker a true dipole through all frequencies has me excited and is the reason the upgrade is worth it (hopefully) to me.

Hi,

I'm in Louisiana too. I've got the M3 Turbo's. I really like them and often wondered what the Turbo S would sound like. So now I am considering the Triode Master upgrade. Did Clayton give you an idea of how long it would take?

Thanks,

Gene
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 26 May 2017, 03:58 am
No, but I imagine a couple of weeks.  Where in this great state (?) are you located?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 26 May 2017, 04:45 am
I think a couple of weeks is wishful thinking which is why I am waiting until later in the Summer to send mine in.  He still has to get past the X-1 introduction.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 9 Jun 2017, 12:03 am
Remember to add in shipping times.  My was 5 working days each way so that adds 2 weeks.  I have had my upgraded M3s back for a little over a week and there is a little break in time (new driver and crossover/caps).  I am experiencing a more refined upper frequency and deeper soundstage.  My analogy would be it's like replacing your current production tubes with some good NOS tubes.  I also detect the low end being ever slightly better.  It's either the new crossover (better components) and/or the lower crossover freq. making life easier on the woofers.

My summary is I am a very happy customer and it is a pleasure to do business with Clayton Shaw.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 9 Jun 2017, 12:58 am
What was the total time yours were out of your house?  I will never complain about the turnaround, but I gotta say I already miss my mine and am tired of listening to the DIY speakers using 3" drivers that I am listening to until mine come home to where they belong.  You don't miss your water...etc. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 9 Jun 2017, 02:08 am
It was a month.  One of the longest months of my life.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Jun 2017, 06:51 pm
Glynn's Triode Masters shipped today  :)

Clayton
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 9 Jun 2017, 06:59 pm
Ooooh!   Ooooh-ooooh!!!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 19 Jun 2017, 05:35 pm
OK, I have had them back for 5 days - here is my impression. Before getting these upgraded, I was running the speaker cables through  Speltz autoformers to match the 4 ohm speakers to my 16 ohm amp.  Those are out of the picture.  I don't know if the Triode Masters (love that name) will improve with more breaking in, but they are so good as is that will only be a bonus.  As mentioned by another AC member, the treble is better and for some reason, so is the bass.  When I used my "powerhouse" amp (30 tube watts) there was little need for a sub on most recordings.  I can mute my 2 GR Research dual 12" subs remotely, so it was easy to do this comparison.  With my 15 watt Shindo  Montille there wasn't quite the deep bass, but this is not an issue with my subs perking along.  The sound is gorgeous.  It is impossible to quantify, but the biggest improvement is a sense of, for lack of a better word, an organic sound to it all.  It just seems to be more effortless and natural (but will never sound like live music, no system does).  I have sat mesmerized by the beauty of the sound.  There is depth I never had before - probably a result of the rear-firing driver.  And it also seems to be more efficient - I have a 2A3 amp being made that I hope will drive them.  That's about it - I am not a great review writer.  Overall, a bigger improvement than I was hoping for and most highly recommended.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 27 Jun 2017, 09:58 am
Does any who upgraded from the M3TS to the triode master have any opinions or reviews for what it did to the sound of the speakers.
I have the M3TS I love the sound. Does it improve on the sound highs mids lows or does it just add a rear firing speaker to give deeper sound stage?

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 28 Jun 2017, 04:14 pm
I am surprised that only Glynnw and myself have commented on the M3 Triode Master upgrade.  I am hoping that we will see comments from any owners of the M3TM, upgrade or new owners.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Goosepond on 28 Jun 2017, 05:40 pm
Obviously I don't realize what the M3TM upgrade is all about. But from those last posts, it sounds like there is an additional rear firing speaker added??? I'm trying to visualize how this is done. Any pics, anyone?

I have the M3T's (non Turbos) which I really like but am intrigued by this upgrade.

Thanks,

Gene
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 28 Jun 2017, 05:44 pm
Yup, a small rear firing driver on the back of the treble unit.  Probably hard to see in pictures since it is black.   Back in black, eh   :duh:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Spatial Audio on 28 Jun 2017, 05:51 pm
Yup, a small rear firing driver on the back of the treble unit.  Probably hard to see in pictures since it is black.   Back in black, eh   :duh:

Just to clarify - The Triode Master version of the M3 incorporates a very high performance compression driver with an open back design, so it operates in dipolar mode. There is not a separate tweeter firing to the rear.

Clayton

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164627)
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Jun 2017, 07:39 pm
Are the 4 woofers the same as in the M3TS?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 28 Jun 2017, 09:30 pm
The woofers are the same, but the bass seems slightly better than the M3TS.  My guess is due to some combination of a better crossover and a lower crossover point.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Jun 2017, 11:42 pm
...the bass seems slightly better than the M3TS.

"Seems" and "slightly better" is rather inconclusive, especially since the woofers are identical.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 29 Jun 2017, 12:10 am
The bass improvement is the least of the improvements.  But I do hear it.  I just haven't articulated it properly.  In comparison to the M3TS, the bass is a little more detailed. It's not stronger/punchier.  The large improvement of the crossover and the lowering of the crossover point is going to change the sound with the same woofers.

For the overall sound, again I use the word refined, Glynnw used organic.  The striking difference is the mid/upper frequencies.  So how does one describe that there is more detail, yet there is a greater musicality?  As a generalization, detail is more analytic and increased musicality is usually a smoother sound.  They often counter each other.  Clayton increased both.

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 29 Jun 2017, 12:45 am
In addition to the changes in the crossover parts along with lowering the crossover point the woofer wiring has been changed from Parallel to Series thus changing the impedance and lightening the load on the amp.  All of these changes combined would have some effect on the response from the woofers even though they are the same.  My Turbo S's will be going back after the 4th for the upgrade. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 29 Jun 2017, 01:28 am
And yet I still remain very skeptical to any claim of a change in bass.... 
From what I've seen, that peak at 30Hz is pretty typical of 15" Eminence drivers.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164642)

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: tme110 on 29 Jun 2017, 02:11 am
Will there be a M4TM?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: gmat on 29 Jun 2017, 11:17 am
I recently picked up a pair of M3 TMs. I never owned the original M3's so I'm curious to hear reviews from owners of both as well. I'm actually fairly new the audiophile world so don't have a lot of other speakers to compare them too either but they sound pretty darn good to my ears. The soundstage is wide and the overall clarity and dynamic range seem solid to me. I also love that you can really crank them and they don't fall apart. I'm running them off of a Cronus Magnum II, mostly playing vinyl on a Rega RP3 TT. If I had any concern, it's with the bass. I find it really nice and tight (controlled not sloppy) but I would like it to have a little more presence, if that makes sense. I have been thinking about adding a sub and curious if anyone her as experience / recommendations for running a sub with the the M3's. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 29 Jun 2017, 01:40 pm
Gmat,

with respect to bass, it takes quite a while to break these in. They have to be played loud (VERY LOUD) with a lot of low frequency energy. The longer you do this, the more they flesh out. So far I have over 150 LOUD hours on mine and they keep getting better, but it sure taxes everyone's patience when the walls, windows, doors and floors are rattling hour after hour, day after day.

One thing for sure is these do not require a sub, if anything, I would turn the bass down a bit if I could. I was originally using an 8 watt SET. It had plenty of drive, but was weak in the bass. So after 48 hours I switched to a TPA 3116 I have on hand and the difference in the bass and bass presence was astonishing. At 95 hours I switched back to the SET and bass went AWOL. So I would suggest "try" another amp or two if you can. You might be surprised.


Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 29 Jun 2017, 01:53 pm
I would also add that under normal circumstances / a less challenging load / something with a smooth impedance curve, the 8 watt SET is untouchable. But in this case the very modest little chip amp is a far better match - not just with respect to the bass, but everything across the board including imaging and soundstaging. So yeah, try another amp and see what happens.

BTW, how many LOUD hours have you got on them?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Goosepond on 29 Jun 2017, 03:22 pm
I'll admit to still trying to wrap my non-audiophile ears around the M3TM. I'm old enough to remember when tubes and vinyl were all there was. And I do have tube amps and a Rega TT. But mostly I use Class D monos and a Tortuga-based LDR pre (at least right now  :thumb:).

So I guess my question is, is the idea of the M3TM's really only worth it if you are a dedicated tube amp person? I like my M3T's and they are my 1st venture into OB's.

Gene
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 29 Jun 2017, 03:31 pm
I would not say the M3TM is for tube amps only.  I am powering mine with a Class D Audio SDS-470.  There is a Schitt Yggy DAC and Schitt Freya before it.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Vinnie R. on 29 Jun 2017, 03:45 pm
I would not say the M3TM is for tube amps only. 

+1

My pair is sounding mighty good with a LIO Integrated!  8) :singing:
(Tubes in the linestage, class AB MOSFET  in the output stage)

Clayton called them "triode master" because they have a higher nominal impedance that is more friendly
with lower power amps, such as 300B and the like, but they sure are fine with more power as well (tube or
solid state). 

Vinnie
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Goosepond on 29 Jun 2017, 03:47 pm
 :thumb: You guys are giving all the right answers!!!

Gene
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: gmat on 29 Jun 2017, 03:55 pm

BTW, how many LOUD hours have you got on them?

I probably have 200+ hours on them in total. Guessing 50-ish loud-ish hours and 50-ish LOUD hours.  :)  The rest at moderate to low volume.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: gmat on 29 Jun 2017, 04:02 pm
To add to this, again, I'm a little new to the audiophile world. Could someone explain to me the advantage of a low wattage amp and why I would get better bass and a wider sound stage from it. Thanks!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 29 Jun 2017, 04:46 pm
Since I had my M3supers (I forget the right abbreviation) upgraded to the Triode Masters, my bass drivers were already broken in.  I am using a 15 watt Shindo Montille 6v6 amp on them and also running a pair of Danny Richie's 12" dual servo OB subs getting their signal from a DSpeaker unit.  The subs do add a bit of deep base - it is easy to hear beause I can mute the subs with a remote.  If you are using something high powered the subs might not make a difference.  But in my system the subs add a nice floor to the sound WHEN there is deep bass.  On many recordings they are superfluous.  Could I live happily without the subs?  Absolutely.  But I've got 'em and they make a difference on some recordings. YMMV.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 29 Jun 2017, 04:54 pm
   I typically don't like to add my 2 cents to a thread without a long period of ownership but I have owned the M3Turbo S's and had them upgraded to the Triode Masters and have the benefit of hearing them in the same room, in the exact same spot, with the same electronics. With the Triode Masters, the soundstage exploded (both depth and width) with much better layering front to back and extension outside the speakers and everything from the compression driver sounds sweeter, more relaxed and effortless. It doesn't sound colored to me but in comparison the treble is a bit more "dry" on the M3Ts compared to the Triode Master.
   To me the bass is as awesome as ever and I don't notice any significant change. The amount of bass is still amp dependent and can be tailored to your preference. I was a little concerned that the 16 ohm drivers wouldn't sound as good with my Vinnie Rossi LIO mosfet amp...Wrong! The LIO sounds ridiculously great on the Triode Masters and is simply a logical pairing (peanut butter and chocolate). For anyone thinking they shouldn't upgrade (yes I call it an upgrade) because they are running SS amplification, not to worry. I also have a 12W SEP tube amp that I have run from the LIO as a preamp only and it sounds great as well...just a different flavor. The beauty is the world is your oyster as far as amplification. I also ran a 1 watt 6sn7 output tube amp on it and I could even live happily with it but so far prefer the LIO.
David
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: tme110 on 29 Jun 2017, 05:06 pm
I got to barrow a set of M4 Turbo S's in my space for a few days.  They were immediately impressive and overall, I think they sounded better than my Ascend acoustics Towers with RAAL tweeter upgrade. However, the RAALs are just so good, and for the high's the M4's couldn't compete. After being used to the sound of the RAALs really showing off on some passages, there was no way the M3s were going to take over.  I wasn't originally interested in the triode masters but after seeing the last few reviews, I wonder if I need to listen again...
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: CSI on 29 Jun 2017, 06:26 pm
To amplify a bit on what others are saying here (pun intended) I believe almost any Spatial version is going to sound good with a good SS amp. My own (non Triode Master) M4's (which will be upgraded if/when Clayton offers an M4 path) have sounded terrific in my very small (10x10) listening room with the following amps: Red Dragon S500 (500 wpc Class D. Biggest sound stage and amazing dynamics but the bass is a bit too much, even with room treatment), Decware Torii Jr (20 lovely tube watts but maybe not the best match for these speakers in terms of bass control), First Watt F7 (30 watts of Class A bliss. Audio Nirvana.), LIO AB MOSFET Module (45 watts. This amp is agreeably close to the First Watt for overall musical pleasure.). So for most, if you own a LIO, the amp module is a no brainer - probably the sweet spot for the Spatials. If you own a First Watt F7 AND you use LIO as your preamp you may be even better off (but for over three times the $). So there's my 2c. The best news is you can hardly go wrong with the Spatials and the LIO with amp module is a simple and marvelous way to go.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 30 Jun 2017, 09:48 am
I paired my M3TS with 2 SVS sb-2000 subs.
Its a great  combo they blend perfectly for that extra bass kick.
I'm also considering the triode master upgrade.
I run a Rogue Atlas Magnum II tube amp
and also a SS Classe 150.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: slefley on 30 Jun 2017, 03:17 pm
Most reviews today talk about how a speaker sounds at high or very high volumes.  I live in a condo where I try to keep the peaks below 80dB which is not 'loud' by most definitions.  Can any M3 owners comment on how the sound quality compares at lower volumes vs higher?  I am considering the Triode Master version to mate with my Shindo Apetite (12w 6V6) amp.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: md92468 on 30 Jun 2017, 03:45 pm
I bought my M4s for this reason (apartment in NYC), and they excel in this regard. Dynamics and separation are both there at low volumes (obviously not as much as when you open them up, but they're there). I also find that the low frequencies don't seem to transmit through the floor as much as box speakers I've owned, which makes the neighbors happy. YMMV, of course, but I think you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: schw06 on 30 Jun 2017, 03:51 pm
I bought my M4s for this reason (apartment in NYC), and they excel in this regard. Dynamics and separation are both there at low volumes (obviously not as much as when you open them up, but they're there). I also find that the low frequencies don't seem to transmit through the floor as much as box speakers I've owned, which makes the neighbors happy. YMMV, of course, but I think you'll be fine.
I agree. I listen in the mid to upper 70db range most of the time.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 30 Jun 2017, 04:20 pm
slefley,

Once they are broken in, they sound very good at lower volumes.

However in your case there's just one problem... in order to break them in you need to play them very LOUD for a very LONG time. Since you live in a condo where the volume must be kept down, I can't see that happening.

OTOH, if you have family/friends who own a house and they are planning a vacation, that could give you the opportunity you need to turn up real loud for a few hundred hours. Of course there's one other possibility ...find a used pair that are already broken in.

Brand new straight out of the box, they are pretty horrid/disappointing. For the first few days I seriously thought about returning mine. It wasn't until I accumulated 95 hours @ +100 db before I thought... hey, these are actually pretty good, I think I'll keep them. Now I have over 160 LOUD hours on them and they keep getting better and better.

IMO, the hours played below 100db don't count if you are trying to break them in.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: slefley on 30 Jun 2017, 05:20 pm
Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll wait - probably for quite a while - for a M3TM to come on the used market.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 30 Jun 2017, 05:41 pm
You might be waiting a long time. Odds are you won't have to wait as long for a used pair of the Turbo S version. Regardless, there's no gurantee that a used pair will be broken in. You have to push these really hard for an extended period of time. I've driven everyone crazy, including myself and the dog; day after day... all day long... walls, windows, doors and floors rattling. I turn it off at night, but by day no mercy. By god the amp is maxed out, sometimes tripping into protection mode, but goddamn, it's worth it!  :lol:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 30 Jun 2017, 06:14 pm
To slefley regarding your Shindo Appetite and the Triode Masters, I am using a Shindo Montille 6V6 on my TMs and it is lovely.  I am pretty sure the speakers are now more efficient than prior to the conversion, so 12 or 15 watts is plenty.  Each day it seems to be improving - this may simply be my enthusiasm affecting my hearing.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rollo on 30 Jun 2017, 06:36 pm
    Maybe the Manf. would consider running them in for potential customers for free or for a small  fee. Using ones gear to do so especially if tubed is a hardship.
    Not only would this help the customer it would eliminate any doubt of purchase.



charles
   
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: sumoking on 1 Jul 2017, 12:47 am
I have a pair of fully broken in M3 Turbo S's.  Under a year old and not a scratch on them. It's true i cranked up the music for hours, days, weeks, and these speakers are smooth and fully broken in.

I won't part with them easily.

Would you be interested in making me a fair offer?  Send me a private message?

Sumo..
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Jul 2017, 02:40 pm
Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll wait - probably for quite a while - for a M3TM to come on the used market.

Looks like you don't have wait anymore... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151445.msg1619652;topicseen#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151445.msg1619652;topicseen#new)
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: sumoking on 11 Jul 2017, 04:51 am
I heard the Crecendos  and thought I wanted to change to the speakers.  I know its a lot more money, but I considered it. 

I decided to instead to put another $100 into making more diffusers and improving the sound in my room.  Huge difference.  I learned this a long time ago.  When you think you need to spend thousands more on a new upgrade or component that investing a small amount in making your room sound better is a far more cost effective way to get you there.

I'll upgrade to the Triode Master, but I do wish there was some feedback on how they sound?  The only one I have heard that had the upgrade is already putting them up for sale.

Does anyone that have them have feedback as to how they sound compared to the M3 Turbo S's?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: zybar on 11 Jul 2017, 11:23 am
I heard the Crecendos  and thought I wanted to change to the speakers.  I know its a lot more money, but I considered it. 

I decided to instead to put another $100 into making more diffusers and improving the sound in my room.  Huge difference.  I learned this a long time ago.  When you think you need to spend thousands more on a new upgrade or component that investing a small amount in making your room sound better is a far more cost effective way to get you there.

I'll upgrade to the Triode Master, but I do wish there was some feedback on how they sound?  The only one I have heard that had the upgrade is already putting them up for sale.

Does anyone that have them have feedback as to how they sound compared to the M3 Turbo S's?

Many thanks.

FWIW, the seller of the speakers loves the way they sound.

He is selling the speakers (and his other 2 channel gear) as he is getting out of 2 channel due priority changes in his life.

George
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rockadanny on 11 Jul 2017, 06:40 pm
I have known the seller personally for many years and he is the kindest, most trustworthy soul as I've ever met. Have no fear or doubt in buying from him at all.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jtwrace on 11 Jul 2017, 06:59 pm
I have known the seller personally for many years and he is the kindest, most trustworthy soul as I've ever met. Have no fear or doubt in buying from him at all.
Even that's an understatement. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: tme110 on 11 Jul 2017, 09:48 pm
I'd have bought them as soon as they were posted but I want white speakers.  Red as a distant 2nd option.  Wish I could help!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: tme110 on 11 Jul 2017, 09:49 pm
I'd have bought them as soon as they were posted but I want white speakers.  Or Wood grain; red as a distant next option.  Wish I could help!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: tme110 on 14 Jul 2017, 06:20 pm
Has anyone heard both the M3TM and the X1?  If so, how much of a difference is there?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Winefix on 20 Jul 2017, 05:47 pm

Absolutely love the M3 Triode Master speakers !!!
I have had several high end and top rated speakers over the past few years, including
Magnepan 3.7. , Goldenear Triton ones, Vandersteen 3 sigII, and most recently Martin Logan Montis. The M3 Triodes are better than all of them. All great speakers for different reasons, but none are on the same level as these, as the level of realistic 3D imaging and natural tone from top to bottom is astonishing !! Plus, my wife is happy as they don't take over the entire room (Magnepan and Martin Logan) or look like the 1980s (Vandersteen) and not made in China (Goldenear Tritons) Super excited to have these speakers !!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Jul 2017, 07:10 pm
...the level of realistic 3D imaging and natural tone from top to bottom is astonishing!!

That description is also quite fitting of the M3 Turbo S. :thumb:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 31 Jul 2017, 04:16 am
Absolutely love the M3 Triode Master speakers !!!
I have had several high end and top rated speakers over the past few years, including
Magnepan 3.7. , Goldenear Triton ones, Vandersteen 3 sigII, and most recently Martin Logan Montis. The M3 Triodes are better than all of them. All great speakers for different reasons, but none are on the same level as these, as the level of realistic 3D imaging and natural tone from top to bottom is astonishing !! Plus, my wife is happy as they don't take over the entire room (Magnepan and Martin Logan) or look like the 1980s (Vandersteen) and not made in China (Goldenear Tritons) Super excited to have these speakers !!

These are great speakers, period. I haven't tried so many speakers as yourself above, but have stuck with a pair of Dali Helicon 400 floorstanders for the last 10 years b/c they are so seductive and play best with tubes. These M3TMs are a different beast with the 15" cones and much more accurate.

I/m driving the TMs with a PrimaLuna HP INtegreated Amp. Way more power than needed. The PrimaLuna hits such frequency breadth/extremes that I'm having to play it in Triode mode rather than Pentode b/c of some sibilance. But this pair of TMs is not fully broken in. Clayton had started breaking them in in Utah before coming to the CAS 2017/California Audio Show. I just bought the Demo pair of TMs from the show which ended today. Thanks Clayton!!


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166217)


Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: RPM123 on 31 Jul 2017, 03:16 pm
These are great speakers, period. I haven't tried so many speakers as yourself above, but have stuck with a pair of Dali Helicon 400 floorstanders for the last 10 years b/c they are so seductive and play best with tubes. These M3TMs are a different beast with the 15" cones and much more accurate.

I/m driving the TMs with a PrimaLuna HP INtegreated Amp. Way more power than needed. The PrimaLuna hits such frequency breadth/extremes that I'm having to play it in Triode mode rather than Pentode b/c of some sibilance. But this pair of TMs is not fully broken in. Clayton had started breaking them in in Utah before coming to the CAS 2017/California Audio Show. I just bought the Demo pair of TMs from the show which ended today. Thanks Clayton!!

Congratulations on the purchase...they certainly sounded sweet driven by the Vinnie Lio!


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166217)
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: ajayrav on 31 Jul 2017, 03:46 pm
Ah, so you got the demo pair…. 2 of my friends and I were at the show this weekend and were completely blown away by these speakers.  One has already placed an order.  I'm strongly considering getting the M4 triode masters….

Ajay
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 31 Jul 2017, 04:30 pm
Ah, so you got the demo pair…. 2 of my friends and I were at the show this weekend and were completely blown away by these speakers.  One has already placed an order.  I'm strongly considering getting the M4 triode masters….

Ajay

yes Ajay, his designs just get better and better. When I first heard his speaks 2-3 years ago at CAS, I was blown away by the sound, but the sweet spot was very narrow, like an old pair of Quad 57s. Now, we've got better dispersion for a bigger sweet spot, while simultaneously reducing the peripheral dispersion to reduce unwanted reflections off the side walls.

there is just something visceral about the 15' cones, the vibrations, while remaining linear, accurate, and easy to drive with the Triode model. i know this is often a cliche, but these speaks, especially at Factory-Direct prices, REALLY punch above the price point ......
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: SFDude on 31 Jul 2017, 05:13 pm
Now, we've got better dispersion for a bigger sweet spot, while simultaneously reducing the peripheral dispersion to reduce unwanted reflections off the side walls.

What? Tell me more! This is the first time I've heard about the larger sweet spot on Spatial's M3 line. I do find that it isn't an issue when I'm listening alone 99% of the time (no one else in my household cares about the gear I have) but it is nice when people do come over and are interested in the gear that I can pull up a second chair next to me for them to listen.

-dave
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 31 Jul 2017, 06:25 pm
The larger sweet spot is only with the M3 Triode Master, not with the M3 Turbo S or below.  I upgraded my M3 Turbo S to the Triode Master and the main differences are the larger soundstage and improved detail in the highs.  I had my speakers for a year before I upgraded, so the woofers were broken in.  The new high end horn did have a break in period.

If you can, have the electronics be as good as you can afford.  I replaced my Class D Audio SDS-470 with Schiit Vidar monos and the soundstage and overall sound improved again and it was significant.  These speakers will show you what your upstream components are capable of.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 31 Jul 2017, 06:30 pm
I also went from M3 Turbo S to Triode Master.  I have noticed that I enjoy the music when sitting well outside the sweetspot (my desk in the back right corner of room).  There is no soundstageing, but the tone, etc remain nice almost anywhere in the room.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 5 Aug 2017, 03:46 am
The larger sweet spot is only with the M3 Triode Master, not with the M3 Turbo S or below.  I upgraded my M3 Turbo S to the Triode Master and the main differences are the larger soundstage and improved detail in the highs.  I had my speakers for a year before I upgraded, so the woofers were broken in.  The new high end horn did have a break in period.

If you can, have the electronics be as good as you can afford.  I replaced my Class D Audio SDS-470 with Schiit Vidar monos and the soundstage and overall sound improved again and it was significant.  These speakers will show you what your upstream components are capable of.

I've tried my EL-34 tubed PrimaLuna HT Int Amp, an Eastern Electric Booster Buffer Amp with a pair of 40 watt A-B push-pull KT88 DIY monos, and now a Naim Nait 5i Int Amp solid state/capacitors. So far, and this is what I would kind of expect, is that overall, the PrimaLuna sounds best, in Pentode mode. the Booster Buffer Amp and DIY monos had the best mids and high as one might expect.

But I'm actually most surprised how well the Naim runs the TMs. It is just a 50 watt amp on paper, but as is typical with Naim gear, its more equivalent to 100 watts compared to other companies. I bought the Naim used for around $850, and the SQ is very clean convincing, balanced, lively with not too much bass, and that is a good thing. the bass I heard was tight, controlled. But the DIY monos could not reproduce the quality or delineation of bass tiers as the Naim did. {That said, the CDP was a SimAudio, known for stronger and tighter than average bass presentations)
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 9 Aug 2017, 04:18 pm
The larger sweet spot is only with the M3 Triode Master, not with the M3 Turbo S or below.  I upgraded my M3 Turbo S to the Triode Master and the main differences are the larger soundstage and improved detail in the highs.  I had my speakers for a year before I upgraded, so the woofers were broken in.  The new high end horn did have a break in period.

If you can, have the electronics be as good as you can afford.  I replaced my Class D Audio SDS-470 with Schiit Vidar monos and the soundstage and overall sound improved again and it was significant.  These speakers will show you what your upstream components are capable of.

I saw those Vidar on the Schitt website, they look amazing at for the price. Are they too much power for the Triodes? Have you tried them with other speakers?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 9 Aug 2017, 04:31 pm
I have not tried them with other speakers.  It is not too much power.  I am running 2 monos and the system sounds great.  I can get my Schiit Freya volume knob close to 12 o'clock at low 80 db range.  When I tried just a single Vidar the knob was at 2 o'clock at the same volume.  A single Vidar gets hot.  Hot enough you cannot leave your hand on it.  Running mono, the amps get warm, but you can leave your hand on it.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 10 Aug 2017, 04:24 pm
I have not tried them with other speakers.  It is not too much power.  I am running 2 monos and the system sounds great.  I can get my Schiit Freya volume knob close to 12 o'clock at low 80 db range.  When I tried just a single Vidar the knob was at 2 o'clock at the same volume.  A single Vidar gets hot.  Hot enough you cannot leave your hand on it.  Running mono, the amps get warm, but you can leave your hand on it.

That was my next question ... about the Freya ... and the active and passive passive options with the tubes and/or jfet/mfets. So 80db - is that with active? passive? can you say what difference you notice running these options via the Spatials?
best, Gary
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 11 Aug 2017, 01:55 am
Basically you get more meat on the bones (tonal density) as you go from passive to SS to Tube.  Passive I have no use for.  Too lean.  Critical listening would lead one to say SS mode is the cleaner mode vs. Tube, but there is an aliveness to Tube mode that I find addictive.  So that's the mode I stay in.  I have played both SS vs. Tube mode for several people and they all have selected tube mode as their choice.  I jokingly call it the pixie dust mode. 

I should note I have a good collection of NOS 6C8G, 6F8G, 6SN7 and 7N7s from all the known manufacturers.  This moment I have Raytheon 6SN7GTAs (1960) in gain with Ken-Rad 6C8Gs (1943) in buffer.  Favorite tubes are Sylvania, Raytheon and Ken-Rad (pre GE).  Second tier are Tung-Sol, RCA and National Union.  Don't mean to get onto a tube tangent, but tube rolling has been a fun aspect of owning the Freya.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 15 Aug 2017, 08:20 pm
To WHO?ME?

Have the newest version (one with Mundorf caps) of the Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium integrated and seriously looking at Triode Masters. Have some concerns as no real reviews out there on speakers yet. All of the posts here are great. Have you solved your "sibilance" issue and can you now run amp in ultralinear as well as triode? Thank you
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: lolligagger on 18 Aug 2017, 12:49 am
slefley,

Once they are broken in, they sound very good at lower volumes.

However in your case there's just one problem... in order to break them in you need to play them very LOUD for a very LONG time. Since you live in a condo where the volume must be kept down, I can't see that happening.

OTOH, if you have family/friends who own a house and they are planning a vacation, that could give you the opportunity you need to turn up real loud for a few hundred hours. Of course there's one other possibility ...find a used pair that are already broken in.

IMO, the hours played below 100db don't count if you are trying to break them in.

Unfortunately this is a misconception.

Any of Clayton's Hologram speakers, including the M3 Triode Master, will break in at lower volume levels. However total break in at lower levels will take longer to achieve. How long would depend on the volume level. The lower the volume the longer the time it will take.

I just called Clayton and he confirmed this. He told me that he suggests to people to play them at normal levels and that in approximately 100 hours they will begin to open up and continue to do so for several hundred hours after that.
He feels that 100db is extremely loud but if one can and wants to do it that way, then fine. It will speed up break-in and not harm the speakers in any way.

He offers two suggestions for people who would like to break them in at loud volume levels but for some reason, as in the case of  Slefley, are unable to do so.

1. Clayton, if asked, will break them in prior to sending them out.

2. Connect the speakers out of phase to cancel out the sound of bass to some extent and lay them face down flat on the floor... preferably on a rug so as not to scratch them. In this way the volume level can be turned way up and the sound will not be disturbing to anyone.

If you have any further questions about this, Clayton invites you to call him to discuss it.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 21 Aug 2017, 12:48 am
To WHO?ME?

Have the newest version (one with Mundorf caps) of the Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium integrated and seriously looking at Triode Masters. Have some concerns as no real reviews out there on speakers yet. All of the posts here are great. Have you solved your "sibilance" issue and can you now run amp in ultralinear as well as triode? Thank you

Hey, Yes the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Premium is doing very well with the Spatials.
When I mentioned sibilance I didnt use the best word.

I would just say that after a weekend at CAS listening to multiple systems,
I had some listener fatigue and was more sensitive to frequency ranges.
Then getting the Spatials to my home on Sunday eve, tired but excited about it,
I didnt use the best word.

The PrimaLuna amp maintains full authority over the Spatials and the sound and SQ from top to bottom.
Manhandles the Spatials. Pretty precise tone, attack and decay, the highs sparkle but are realistic,
the lows well-delineated and great punch.

All told, I think this is a very good combo of amp and speakers.
My limitations are due to my own listening room and personal taste about the PrimaLuna.
e.g.. my listening space is about 12x20, so I can't turn it up to rock and roll levels without
too much sonic pressure building up in the room.

And my own personal opinion of the PrimaLuna is that the stock tubes are good,
but I think the front end, the preamp end, lacks some substance and soundstage compare to my old preamp.
The PrimaLuna behaved this way not just with the Spatials, but with every speaker I have played them with, so it is NOT b/c of the Spatials.

So I'm going to replace the 6 12AU7s sometime soon.
Are you also using the stock tubes on the Prima?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 22 Aug 2017, 05:44 pm
Just in to week two with the PL. Replaced Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct coupled going to Manley Snappers. I was surprised to find the PL seems to be better than my earlier gear in almost all aspects. Could be the placebo effect, but even my wife seems to notice the difference.

Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 22 Aug 2017, 10:37 pm
I understand your concern with the lack of reviews.   But Spatial does have the 60 day trial period allows you to experience the M3 in your own home without risk.  I am loving my Spatials in a room that is 33' X 17' 3" X 7' 6".  You will also save some money.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 23 Aug 2017, 04:57 pm
Just in to week two with the PL. Replaced Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct coupled going to Manley Snappers. I was surprised to find the PL seems to be better than my earlier gear in almost all aspects. Could be the placebo effect, but even my wife seems to notice the difference.

Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.

Well, I think your room size is big enough for the Spatials. Mine is 12x20x10 high,
and I would say that it is just big enough for these speakers, I speculate that it has to do
with the 2 big 15' cones moving air and sonic energy. IMO, these speaks work better for bigger rooms.

I feel like I can still turn up the volume on the PL to get enough dynamics, substance, and nuance to where I like it,
but turning up the volume much more after that point will push the overall energy in the room to the point of annoyance.
This is not bad per se, but something I had to learn about these particular speakers. But once I figured out that limit,
its all good, I dont even want to turn up the Volume any higher.

Last, like Zu Audio, I like the factory-direct manufacturers that have proven themselves and can sell gear
without a fleet of stores selling their stuff. this keeps the cost down, so $4000 with a generous return policy (60 days)
and a generous warranty (20 years) makes the risk relatively low.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 23 Aug 2017, 07:56 pm
Thank you. Have talked with several individuals about placement of Spatials, with consensus being 48-60" from rear wall for best 3D imaging. In my room they will be placed on long (22 ft) wall. The 48-60" puts them 10 ft from back wall, and about 8.5 ft from listening position. The 60 day trial is attractive. I also saw that Clayton can break them in prior to shipping. Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio thought the Spatials sounded good, but did bring up the space away from the rear wall.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 23 Aug 2017, 08:37 pm
The distance from the front baffle edge to the back wall is personal preference and room dependent.  48-60" is not a figure set in stone.  In my room I found that to be excessive and detrimental to the sound.  Start at 30" like Clayton recommends and find the right distance for yourself.  In my room it was considerably less than the figures being suggested. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: lolligagger on 26 Aug 2017, 11:19 pm
Because of the lack of any reviews on the Spatials, I am torn in regards to purchase. Room is 22 x 15.5 x 9. Other speaker I am looking at is Focal 1028 BE and 1038 BE. Upscale audio demos the Focals using the PL Integrated.

My room is 12W x 17L X 10H. Clayton told me that the M3s would work even in my small room but he felt the M4s might even be more appropriate.
So that is what I have... the M4 Turbo S, soon to become the M4 Triode Master. Your room is considerably bigger than mine so the M3s should work very well in it. However it might be best to talk to Clayton about it prior to purchasing.

On the phone he is always very helpful.

The TM upgrade program for the M4 is now underway. If the upgrade is now available, I would assume that he is also producing new M4 Triode Masters 

I agree with JackD. In my room my M4 TS are no where near that far from the back wall and they sound great.  But that said, the M4 Triode Master may require more space from the wall.

Once again, best to talk to Clayton





Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 27 Aug 2017, 02:37 am
I'll know whether any distance change is required when my M3 TM's get back from Clayton the middle of next week. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: SoundSound on 28 Aug 2017, 03:32 pm
Hi David,

The key to achieving good loudspeaker matching with tube amplifiers is that the speaker exhibit both high impedance as well a reasonably smooth impedance curve. The phase performance will indicate whether the amp will sound good into a given load. You can see in the graph of the M3 Triode Master that the nominal impedance is around 16Ω with a very flat phase plot. Abrupt changes in the phase curve indicate reactance. An upward tend reveals capacitive reactance, where a downward slope reveals inductive reactance. These variations in the load can change the frequency response of the amplifier and are responsible for the poor sound often encountered when connecting to normal speakers. The M3 TM's high sensitivity of 92dB is of course, a great benefit as well. The efficiency due to the 16Ω load equates to 95dB.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161305)


Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
www.spatialaudio.us

Dear Audiophiles! :)

I am not a Guru in the field of Electroacoustics, so please forgive my silly questions… :oops:

How can we determine with any degree of accuracy from the above plot the averaged over the frequency range from 5Hz to 20kHz M3TM impedance is around 16Ω mark?
I see a local min at around 14Ω (5Hz and 80Hz) with everything else much higher (about 90Ω at 30Hz, much higher at around 1500Hz)… :scratch:

The swings in phase are somewhere from -45 deg to +45 deg, I guess? :scratch:

Do you believe the above constitutes an “easy” (am not sure what the appropriate technical term for this is) load for an amplifier? Not sure if there any differences in case of tube or solid state designs…
In any case, in my limited understanding, the speaker impedance should match (be equal to?) the internal impedance (output impedance?) of the amplifier… :scratch:

Do I understand correctly M3TM's are time-coherent above the crossover point? :scratch:

Some fellow audiophiles report good results employing Vinnie Rossi LIO MOSFET amp (25 wpc @ 8-ohms) with M3TM’s. I wonder what the internal impedance (output impedance?) of this amplifier is… :scratch:

Could somebody please post electrical impedance vs. frequency plot for the M3TS? Would be interesting to compare them... :scratch:

As always, all your responses are greatly appreciated. Please chime in! :)

Sorry about my long and eclectic post… :oops:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 28 Aug 2017, 09:15 pm
soundSound
Thx for sharing, All good questions,  i'm interested in the answers as well.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 31 Aug 2017, 08:34 pm
Thank you all for response on triode masters and room size. Though not relevant to this string, put Brimar 12AU7s in preamp slots of PL Dialogue Integrated. Wow! Great improvement in mids, overall sound.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 1 Sep 2017, 06:10 pm
Thank you all for response on triode masters and room size. Though not relevant to this string, put Brimar 12AU7s in preamp slots of PL Dialogue Integrated. Wow! Great improvement in mids, overall sound.

BBY-
I think we are on the same wavelength, except you haven't sprung for the Triode Masters ... yet.
I have the Triodes and the HP Integrated, just ordered 4 Mullard M8136s from Upscale to replace 4 of the 6 Preamp 12AU7s. My choice was b/w the Mullards and the Brimars you just bought.

We both probably take to Jarrod at Upscale. He recommended the Mullards or the Brimar to me when I told him the PL stock 12AU7s were not rich and substantive enough. of course, the price on the Mullards are ridiculous($115 each), but I figured I'll only live once, and can try the Brimar's later if needed. Plus, I need a little roll off on the top end for my ears, sensitive to top end harshness.
best, Gary
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 4 Sep 2017, 02:14 pm
I just boxed up my M3 Turbo S to send back to be upgraded to the Triode Master! The turbo's are so good i'm excited and nervous at the same time. I hope the upgrade only adds to what the Turbo S already is.
I'm running both SS classe cav150 and a Rogue Audio magnum II amplifiers.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 4 Sep 2017, 03:05 pm
Bad axe, of those two distinctly different amps, which do you prefer and why?
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 5 Sep 2017, 12:49 am
I run the Classe for home theater use on the spatials, and the Rogue for 2 channel listening.
Both sound great excellent on the M3 Turbo S
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 9 Sep 2017, 07:46 pm
I run the Classe for home theater use on the spatials, and the Rogue for 2 channel listening.
Both sound great excellent on the M3 Turbo S

Makes sense to me, I maxed out on my funds for a stellar 2 channel amp with sub out (PL HP Integrated) with a Mullard front end. But would like to use the HT bypass for surround sound later this year.

But I did add a 250 watt Martin Logan 10" sub to my Triodes, sounds much better with bottom end filled out.
FYI, Clayton runs dual subs with his Triodes at home.

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 10 Sep 2017, 01:36 pm
i'm running 2 svs 12" sealed subs
absolutely perfect match with with thw M3 turbo's
Hope to get some more feed back on the triode masters.

mine have been shipped back for the upgrade. :thumb:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 10 Sep 2017, 02:52 pm
Me three - running pair of Danny's dual 12" servo OB subs w/my TMs and they make a noticeable improvement. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Sep 2017, 04:51 pm
Me three - running pair of Danny's dual 12" servo OB subs w/my TMs and they make a noticeable improvement.

That's exactly what I'd do if I required more bass and had the room to accommodate those subs. There's a world of difference between OB bass and box generated bass.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 11 Sep 2017, 05:06 pm
That's exactly what I'd do if I required more bass and had the room to accommodate those subs. There's a world of difference between OB bass and box generated bass.

Wind- these are pretty "big" speakers mainly due to the width, and the open baffle really open up in bigger rooms.
I just mentioned above that I run a sub with my Triodes now, and that was a major gain.
But what I should have mentioned is that my low end is restricted due to the 8 EL-34 tubes in the PL Integrated.

I'm looking at replacing the stock PL EL34s with Tung Sol KT120s,
which would also give a more filled out and extended sound from top to bottom.

I also just put in 4 NOS Mullard 12AU7s (to replace 4 of the 6 stock Prima Luna 12AU7s),
so I'm hoping the benefits of both the Mullards and Tung Sold will complement one another.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: witchdoctor on 11 Sep 2017, 06:06 pm
Wind- these are pretty "big" speakers mainly due to the width, and the open baffle really open up in bigger rooms.
I just mentioned above that I run a sub with my Triodes now, and that was a major gain.
But what I should have mentioned is that my low end is restricted due to the 8 EL-34 tubes in the PL Integrated.

I'm looking at replacing the stock PL EL34s with Tung Sol KT120s,
which would also give a more filled out and extended sound from top to bottom.

I also just put in 4 NOS Mullard 12AU7s (to replace 4 of the 6 stock Prima Luna 12AU7s),
so I'm hoping the benefits of both the Mullards and Tung Sold will complement one another.

Before you replace the tubes try a new wall socket like the Mapleshade Minimalist for less than $100, you will likely lift your whole systems performance.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rollo on 11 Sep 2017, 11:07 pm
Wind- these are pretty "big" speakers mainly due to the width, and the open baffle really open up in bigger rooms.
I just mentioned above that I run a sub with my Triodes now, and that was a major gain.
But what I should have mentioned is that my low end is restricted due to the 8 EL-34 tubes in the PL Integrated.

I'm looking at replacing the stock PL EL34s with Tung Sol KT120s,
which would also give a more filled out and extended sound from top to bottom.

I also just put in 4 NOS Mullard 12AU7s (to replace 4 of the 6 stock Prima Luna 12AU7s),
so I'm hoping the benefits of both the Mullards and Tung Sold will complement one another.

  What is the frequency response of your amp ? Does your sub go to 20hz ? Your speaker goes to 32hz [ -3db] I believe. Where are you crossing over ?


charles


Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 12 Sep 2017, 06:51 pm
Before you replace the tubes try a new wall socket like the Mapleshade Minimalist for less than $100, you will likely lift your whole systems performance.

Dr Witch
I will look into the Maeshade. In fact, I think I was reading about it in the "Cheap Audio" or some such forum here.  The forum discussion shows that people had extreme opinions on both ends of the spectrum. So that is my hesitation.

 But maybe they have a return policy? And I could try it and send it back if it did not help 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 19 Sep 2017, 07:43 pm
  What is the frequency response of your amp ? Does your sub go to 20hz ? Your speaker goes to 32hz [ -3db] I believe. Where are you crossing over ?
charles

Charles,
1. my amp goes down to 20 hz or so. In any case, PrimaLuna prides itself on bandwith from its amps, propulsed from the large transformers they install.

2. yes, the M3 Triodes go down to 32 hz, but not with the EL34 tubes  I was running (restricted freq extensions), thats why the sub is a breath of fresh air.

3. My low pass filter on the sub is set to the lowest possible, 30 hz in order to make up for the LFEs that are restricted by the EL34 tubes. its a Martin Logan Grotto sub, 250w, 10"woofer I believe, about 10 years old, good shape.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 20 Sep 2017, 03:39 pm
Hi all,
I have still not taken the plunge on the TMs. However, like "whome" (sp) I run the same PL Integrated with 4 Brimar 12AU7s. I have almost too much low end. Even though it is well delineated (can hear all the notes).

I improved bass response significantly when I added Oyaide R1 receptacles throughout and Anti-cable Reference 3 and 2 power cables.

This improvement was seen with my prior system as well (Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct Coupled going into Manley Snappers). Low end with the PL is better, more defined, etc, than with the Cary/Snapper combo.

The receptacles and the cables, each independently added a wealth of low end impact and definition.

Right now I could not imagine adding subs to my system.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 20 Sep 2017, 05:05 pm
Hi all,
I have still not taken the plunge on the TMs. However, like "whome" (sp) I run the same PL Integrated with 4 Brimar 12AU7s. I have almost too much low end. Even though it is well delineated (can hear all the notes).

I improved bass response significantly when I added Oyaide R1 receptacles throughout and Anti-cable Reference 3 and 2 power cables.

This improvement was seen with my prior system as well (Cary SLP 98 F1 Direct Coupled going into Manley Snappers). Low end with the PL is better, more defined, etc, than with the Cary/Snapper combo.

The receptacles and the cables, each independently added a wealth of low end impact and definition.

Right now I could not imagine adding subs to my system.



The Brimars are your preamp tubes, but  what tubes are you using for your Power tubes? That can make all the difference in your bottom and top end extension. El34? KT88? What kind?
E.g., I'm running EL34s, so less extension and taughtness on the bottom end
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: rollo on 20 Sep 2017, 05:14 pm
  Try playing with the crossover points. Sometimes room interaction and other factors diminish bass. Just try raising the setting until you hear the subs. Then turn down a little at a time for a linear sound. Have fun trying.


charles
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: bbybaudio on 21 Sep 2017, 08:31 pm
who?me?  I am running the stock EL34s. Dealer that sold unit mentioned I should go to KT120s, but then again he is also an Audio Research dealer.

Stereophile review states that they prefer the EL34 tube over the others.

Thought about upgrading the EL34s, but Upscale Audio does not push this like they do using the Brimars or Mullards in the Front.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 26 Sep 2017, 05:19 pm
who?me?  I am running the stock EL34s. Dealer that sold unit mentioned I should go to KT120s, but then again he is also an Audio Research dealer.

Stereophile review states that they prefer the EL34 tube over the others.

Thought about upgrading the EL34s, but Upscale Audio does not push this like they do using the Brimars or Mullards in the Front.

Yes, but remember, the signal passes thru the the preamp tubes to the power tubes,
so the power tubes have the last (tube) sonic signature before going to the speakers to your ears.
IOWs, the preamp tube have influence as you know, but are not the final say in the matter.

Eg. In the last week, I switched out the stock PL EL34s for 4 PS VANE KT88s and 4 RAM KT88s.
The difference was significant, and predictable, just as Kevin says himself in his video tirades.
And this is still after putting in NOS MULLARDS 12AU7s in the Preamp section.

As expected, the hi low frequencies were extended, the top and bottom were less "soft" and round sounding.
The bass was more taught, octaves were better delineated. I was getting some listeners fatigue with the EL34s
in the lower high frequencies. The KT88s spread out the energy to higher frequencies,
reducing the bunched up energy at the lower highs, and balancing out the sound from upper mids to high highs. Now we are cooking with Crisco.

I am considering the KT120s as well for more extension, immediacy, and bass delineation/taughtness.
I am just hoping it does not negate the 4NOS MULLARDS that I put on the front end to the ridiculous tune of ($450).

Will call Upscale and see what they suggest, given my current set up.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: snovosel on 16 Oct 2017, 03:01 pm
Hi all, thought I would offer some thoughts on this discussion as I have had the M3 Turbo S for the past year and have today ordered the Triode Master upgrade.  I just sent Clayton an email inquiring how the exchange/upgrade works.  Do I box up the Turbos (in the original shipping containers) or does Spatial send out a new box and then I return them? 

Re tube amps, I am running separate PrimaLuna DiaLogue power and preamps.  I tried both the stock EL34s and KT120s and ended up selling the 120s because they were too harsh for my liking.  Yes there was an increase in overall dynamics with the 120s but there was also waaay too much, too early, ear fatigue.

I am dabbling with a variety of 12AU7s (in both the power and preamp) -- I've got the Brimars, Mullards, Cifte, and JAN-CBRZ.  I also swapped the stock rectifier to the Phillips 5AR4.

Looking forward to hear how the Triode compares to the Turbo.

As with many others here, I have the Turbos set out from the wall, im my case 47" to the front of the speaker.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 16 Oct 2017, 03:47 pm
Looking forward to hear how the Triode compares to the Turbo.

I'm guessing the bigger idea behind the TMs is to help accommodate SET amps.

If you're not running a SET, Verastarr (http://verastarr.com/speaker-upgrades/) offers a variety of crossover upgrades for the Turbo series that don't cost nearly as much as the TM mod.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 16 Oct 2017, 03:53 pm
There also is a better high end driver that is a dipole.  It is an improvement over the Turbo S.

I have my M3 TMs toed in with the outer edge 58" and the inner edge 53" away from the back wall.  7' 6" apart.  Fantastic sound stage presentation.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 16 Oct 2017, 04:35 pm
There also is a better high end driver that is a dipole.  It is an improvement over the Turbo S.

What is it about this dipole driver that makes it better?

So far I haven't read anything compelling enough to make me want to go down that path. I ditched a wonderful SET because it didn't play nice with the Turbo load, and I doubt it would fair any better with the TM load.

The TMs and the Turbos have a 100Ω peak at 30Hz. That aspect alone pretty much rendered my SET useless in the bottom end, meaning very little bass.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169981)





Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jseymour on 16 Oct 2017, 06:27 pm
The M3 TM high end driver has more detail and refinement than the Turbo S.  Its not a dramatic difference, but it can be heard.  The addition of it being dipole improved the sound stage.

The crossover has better components over the Turbo S.  The lowering of the crossover point from 800Hz  to 700Hz eases the load on the woofers with a subtle improvement in the bass.

I am driving my speakers with 2 Schiit Vidars, so I have plenty of low end with power to spare.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 16 Oct 2017, 06:43 pm
I had my M3TS upgraded to TM, mostly to get the new dipole driver and to mate the speakers better with my 16 Ohm friendly amps.  No huge improvement but overall a greater sense of ease, as if everything was working with less strain.  Better sound when not in sweetspot also a plus.  I recently purchased a First Watt J-2 to try and while I still prefer my Shindo overall, the First Watt definitely brought better bass.  Now I am wondering if there is a good way to bi-amp these speakers.  BTW, I heard the new Spatial Audio speakers at RMAF last week and they were in another league.  Now I have to wait a couple of years and then look for a used pair, because $10K is out of my range.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: catluck on 2 Nov 2017, 02:43 pm
New to the site.  Grateful for the many comments.  Running a pair of M3TM's (in M1 chassis).  Driving with Bel Canto 3.7 DAC and Ref 600's.  Started with M1's, then upgraded to the "better" dipole, then upgraded to the TM iteration. Originally amping with the BIG Psvane 845's (utterly amazing 50 watt 845 amps). But with original M1 configuration, upper frequencies MIA. Clayton suggested moving to SS.  This was heresy to a tube guy for the last 35 years.  While looking for SS gear to buy, I figured I'd try something light/cheap b/c the Psvane's just weren't "doing it."  Started with Musical Fidelity M1's (class D - $999 - 100 watts).  Thought I'd be underwhelmed, bored and disappointed. WRONG. I was actually astonished at the presentation.  Because the Psvane's weigh 100 lbs./each, I wondered, before upgrading the Spatials, if moving up the class D line might further improve the presentation. Bought a pair of Auralik Meraks.  Really fine sounding amps. More bloom, tonal density and far better upper frequency presence. In the meantime, I had the Spatials upgraded to where they are now the TM's.  All the while I was communicating with Clayton who was helpful and understanding of the issues.  In fact, I suspect that my early conversations with Clayton may have contributed to his decision to design the TM's inasmuch as we discussed my concerns over the lack of upper frequency detail when using tubes.   The Ref 600's sound so open, natural, and "right" that I'm wondering if I'll go back to tubes in this downstairs system.  I agree with the comments re: the dipole "tweeter" is a slightly more relaxed and slightly more refined driver when compared to the M27(?).  I never listen LOUD so it's possible that even after 150 hours or so, listening at no louder than 85dB, there is some break-in still required.  As I'm writing, listening to Illinois Jacquet "Birthday Party" and wondering if it's worth it to spend $1,000's more to buy the X2 (although I admit the tweeter in the X2 is more likely to provide the detail/texture that this M35 driver seems unable to provide).  Bottom line: I don't see myself returning to cones/domes in a box.  As I've aged I find the OB relaxed/open presentation preferable to boxes.  For those who haven't tried class D, remember that's how Clayton had been showing his products. And, again, this endorsement coming for a tubophile for over 3 decades. Who woulda' thought.  Grateful to have been able to read your messages and consider your thoughts. Take care all.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: who?me? on 18 Nov 2017, 07:20 pm
glynn,
what 16 ohm friendly amps did you try?

I have a pair of tubed monos, DIY, 40watt push/pull, AB.
they are set at 4 ohms and not driving the M3TMs very politely, but not adequately.
I can resolder my monos to 16 ohm, then will try them with the M3TMs, and see if it helps.
gary

I had my M3TS upgraded to TM, mostly to get the new dipole driver and to mate the speakers better with my 16 Ohm friendly amps.  No huge improvement but overall a greater sense of ease, as if everything was working with less strain.  Better sound when not in sweetspot also a plus.  I recently purchased a First Watt J-2 to try and while I still prefer my Shindo overall, the First Watt definitely brought better bass.  Now I am wondering if there is a good way to bi-amp these speakers.  BTW, I heard the new Spatial Audio speakers at RMAF last week and they were in another league.  Now I have to wait a couple of years and then look for a used pair, because $10K is out of my range.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: glynnw on 18 Nov 2017, 09:51 pm
Using Shindo Montille 6V6 which has 12-15 watts.  Also used a First Watt J-2 which probably had same output into 16 ohms.  But then, I use a pair of the GR Research OB subs. When I first got these speakers as standard Turbo S I compared the 16 ohm loving Shindo against the Red something or other  (I am getting old and my memory is sucko) amps with a jillion watts that Clayton uses at the show and still preferred the Shindo, so power isn't necessarily the answer for me.  Now I can play the system so loud my cat complains, and she is a head banger at heart.  I imagine there is a powerful amp that I would prefer to the Shindo, but doubt if I could afford it.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: badaxe73 on 16 Dec 2017, 03:20 pm
I hooked up a restored Fisher 400 at 16ohm to the the triode masters. Wow what a difference from my classe solid state.
More depth and realism. It was an immediate difference in sound. :thumb:
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: drhoon on 23 Apr 2018, 09:16 pm
Any kind owner in NYC willing to let me audition  :D

Thank you..
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: snovosel on 1 May 2018, 01:04 pm
Makes sense to me, I maxed out on my funds for a stellar 2 channel amp with sub out (PL HP Integrated) with a Mullard front end. But would like to use the HT bypass for surround sound later this year.

But I did add a 250 watt Martin Logan 10" sub to my Triodes, sounds much better with bottom end filled out.
FYI, Clayton runs dual subs with his Triodes at home.


So it's been five months since I've had the TMs in play with a PrimaLuna HP running EL34s and I am beginning to see why others have had to implement a sub or even dual subs because I too am not getting a significant bottom-end experience (as I had hoped I would) despite spending far too much time experimenting with placement and/or 12AU7 rolling.  I upgraded to the TMs from the Turbo S.   As much as I liked the Turbo S presentation (and there were times when paired with select music it seemed magical) it still lacked what I would call depth or character of bass and so I bought into the claim that the TMs would offer a sonic improvement across all tonal areas but so far it's been a meh experience so much so that I am doing what I thought I wouldn't have to do (and what I definitely didn't want to do) after my initial TS purchase -- go back to the drawing board and start looking at/auditioning other speaker offerings.  I don't/didn't want to have to accessorize main speakers with additional boxes cluttering the floor/dealing with chain connectivity issues -- adding more instead of less complexity --  in order to experience the <37Hz measured results of the TM mains.  In a last ditch effort, I have spent an additional (unnecessary) $800+ for KT-150s to see if this will have any effect on the presentation. Fingers partially crossed.         
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: snovosel on 2 May 2018, 02:42 am
Any kind owner in NYC willing to let me audition  :D

Thank you..


I am just off Exit 2 on the NJ Turnpike.  You are welcome to drop in anytime. 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: vkohl on 27 Nov 2018, 06:13 am
ANY ONE WANT TO ADDRESS THIS ?

So how do you expect people to take you serious? so you sound like you were really blown away buy these incredible cheap and terrible sounding speakers what a shame you have probably helped someone as clueless as you waste their money on bad sound. Did you not notice as soon as you saw the speakers in the M3 they were stamped frames??? That is a sign of cheap drivers but your a millennial so you don't know that. The M3 are a joke to be quite honest i feel sorry for anyone that likes the sound of the M3 due to having never heard good sound but don't assume what your hearing is good your not a Audiophile so give it up and admit you have terrible taste and zero knowledge about speakers & sound.

The compression drivers in the M3 are the cheapest worst sounding 1" compression drivers their are they are the K mart blue light drivers of the speaker world LMFAO. Ok the 15" coaxial is actually two different brands the 15" frame is a Eminence it is a Beta 12cx and it is $79.99 at u guessed it US speakers   http://www.usspeaker.com/beta12cx-1.htm It is a coaxial but takes a screw on 1" driver witch means you can use any 1" screw on driver you like you could even use a bolt on 1" driver with a screw on adapter.  Now this is were it gets really funny the 1" compression driver Spatial uses is one of the cheapest made it is a china made P-Audio BM-D440s and it is a whopping $79.95 at you guessed it US speaker http://www.usspeaker.com/paudio%20bmd440Sseries%20ii-1.htm

The lower 15" in the M3 is a Eminence Delta 12LFA and it is $79.00 at US speakers  http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-12LFA-1.htm   So your talking about $490.00 in drivers for the M3 and that is our cost.  Spatial i am sure only have less than half that invested in each M3 after buying the drivers in bulk.  Your review for these terrible sounding speakers was just glowing really made me laugh. Out of all the 15" coaxial speakers there are you liked the cheapest worst sounding combo on the planet. a similar designed  Modified Altec Lansing 604's and 605's would embarrass these M3 and those Altec have been around since the 1940's as would a similar designed speaker using Radian 15" coaxial or Beyma, Faital Pro, B & C . With so many really really nice sounding  15" coaxial drivers available why would Spatial use inferior Eminence & P-Audio drivers. Well we all know the answer Spatial is buying the cheapest thing out their and selling them for way way way more than should ever be allowed.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: JackD on 27 Nov 2018, 07:03 am
And what is it you pretend to add to this thread, certainly not experience.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: wushuliu on 27 Nov 2018, 07:23 am
With so many really really nice sounding  15" coaxial drivers available why would Spatial use inferior Eminence & P-Audio drivers. Well we all know the answer Spatial is buying the cheapest thing out their and selling them for way way way more than should ever be allowed.

Although interesting info about the driver choices, Spatial Audio's pricing is right in line with typical audiophile retail prices. There are speakers of similar cost that use drivers that cost even less from companies like SB Acoustics, Peerless, Seas, etc. It's no secret that speaker costs are a combination of dealer markup, overhead, and enclosure design/shipping - not so much the drivers and crossover. Making slick looking frames/cabinets isn't cheap.

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: vkohl on 27 Nov 2018, 07:31 am
Although interesting info about the driver choices, Spatial Audio's pricing is right in line with typical audiophile retail prices. There are speakers of similar cost that use drivers that cost even less from companies like SB Acoustics, Peerless, Seas, etc. It's no secret that speaker costs are a combination of dealer markup, overhead, and enclosure design/shipping - not so much the drivers and crossover. Making slick looking frames/cabinets isn't cheap.

WHAT CABINET ? ...I see barely more than ONE flat piece of wood !

Please enlighten everyone before I plunk down $10,000 for a pair of these SNAKE OIL sound makers !
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: vkohl on 27 Nov 2018, 07:39 am
And what is it you pretend to add to this thread, certainly not experience.

Im adding REALITY ! ....I never believe snake oil barkers ....my motto is " QUESTION EVERYTHING" because its usually a LIE .... just like CNN for example.

...kinda like this : staged photo ops to appeal to the bleeding heart liberals ... WAKE UP TO THE PROPAGANDA YOUR BEING FED !

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187317)
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: wushuliu on 27 Nov 2018, 07:40 am
WHAT CABINET ? ...I see barely more than ONE flat piece of wood !

Please enlighten everyone before I plunk down $10,000 for a pair of these SNAKE OIL sound makers !

I already enlightened you. Those costs add up. It's a business, and employees have to get paid. If it looks so simple and cheap to you, then I can only assume you can build them yourself and with the same quality.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: wushuliu on 27 Nov 2018, 07:45 am
Im adding REALITY ! ....I never believe snake oil barkers ....my motto is " QUESTION EVERYTHING" because its usually a LIE .... just like CNN for example.

...kinda like this : staged photo ops to appeal to the bleeding heart liberals ... WAKE UP TO THE PROPAGANDA YOUR BEING FED !

Oh I see, you were just looking for an excuse to spout whatever kool-aid you're slurping off your social media feed. Next few months are gonna be rough for you. Better short that Facebook stock.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: oskar on 27 Nov 2018, 02:36 pm
"WAKE UP TO THE PROPAGANDA YOUR BEING FED!"

Ok got it and you have a nice day.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Tyson on 27 Nov 2018, 05:10 pm
WHAT CABINET ? ...I see barely more than ONE flat piece of wood !

Please enlighten everyone before I plunk down $10,000 for a pair of these SNAKE OIL sound makers !

You know I thought the exact same thing when I bought a meal at a restaurant today.  YOU WANT ME TO PAY $16 for THIS!!!??? There's only like $2 worth of actual food here (rice, sauce, chicken).  The ENTIRE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY IS A LIE!!!!

QUESTION EVERYTHING!

[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Nov 2018, 07:29 pm

So it's been five months since I've had the TMs in play with a PrimaLuna HP running EL34s and I am beginning to see why others have had to implement a sub or even dual subs because I too am not getting a significant bottom-end experience (as I had hoped I would) despite spending far too much time experimenting with placement and/or 12AU7 rolling.  I upgraded to the TMs from the Turbo S.   As much as I liked the Turbo S presentation (and there were times when paired with select music it seemed magical) it still lacked what I would call depth or character of bass and so I bought into the claim that the TMs would offer a sonic improvement across all tonal areas but so far it's been a meh experience so much so that I am doing what I thought I wouldn't have to do (and what I definitely didn't want to do) after my initial TS purchase -- go back to the drawing board and start looking at/auditioning other speaker offerings.  I don't/didn't want to have to accessorize main speakers with additional boxes cluttering the floor/dealing with chain connectivity issues -- adding more instead of less complexity --  in order to experience the <37Hz measured results of the TM mains.  In a last ditch effort, I have spent an additional (unnecessary) $800+ for KT-150s to see if this will have any effect on the presentation. Fingers partially crossed.       

The M3ts and the TM use the same 15” drivers. The quality and character of bass these drivers produce is largely determined by the amp driving them. If you have, or can borrow a SS amp, it will most likely surprise you in a way you would not have thought possible.   :o :P

OB bass is by nature different (superior IMO) to boxed bass. These speakers will produce very clean bass down to an honest 32 Hz, assuming they are in fact broken in, but they are best suited with an amp that can cope with the load, especially between 30 to 50 Hz.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Emil on 27 Nov 2018, 08:25 pm
Vkohl

Don't you think you're being a bit harsh? Not on the main stream media being totally corrupt which it is but on Spatial Audio?

I'm sure if you broke down the cost of many high end speakers you'd be just as upset.

As Wushuliu said, it's what it takes to keep the doors open. The consumer will ultimately decide.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: jncWAGS on 28 Nov 2018, 11:24 am
ANY ONE WANT TO ADDRESS THIS ?

So how do you expect people to take you serious? so you sound like you were really blown away buy these incredible cheap and terrible sounding speakers what a shame you have probably helped someone as clueless as you waste their money on bad sound. Did you not notice as soon as you saw the speakers in the M3 they were stamped frames??? That is a sign of cheap drivers but your a millennial so you don't know that. The M3 are a joke to be quite honest i feel sorry for anyone that likes the sound of the M3 due to having never heard good sound but don't assume what your hearing is good your not a Audiophile so give it up and admit you have terrible taste and zero knowledge about speakers & sound.

The compression drivers in the M3 are the cheapest worst sounding 1" compression drivers their are they are the K mart blue light drivers of the speaker world LMFAO. Ok the 15" coaxial is actually two different brands the 15" frame is a Eminence it is a Beta 12cx and it is $79.99 at u guessed it US speakers   http://www.usspeaker.com/beta12cx-1.htm It is a coaxial but takes a screw on 1" driver witch means you can use any 1" screw on driver you like you could even use a bolt on 1" driver with a screw on adapter.  Now this is were it gets really funny the 1" compression driver Spatial uses is one of the cheapest made it is a china made P-Audio BM-D440s and it is a whopping $79.95 at you guessed it US speaker http://www.usspeaker.com/paudio%20bmd440Sseries%20ii-1.htm

The lower 15" in the M3 is a Eminence Delta 12LFA and it is $79.00 at US speakers  http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-12LFA-1.htm   So your talking about $490.00 in drivers for the M3 and that is our cost.  Spatial i am sure only have less than half that invested in each M3 after buying the drivers in bulk.  Your review for these terrible sounding speakers was just glowing really made me laugh. Out of all the 15" coaxial speakers there are you liked the cheapest worst sounding combo on the planet. a similar designed  Modified Altec Lansing 604's and 605's would embarrass these M3 and those Altec have been around since the 1940's as would a similar designed speaker using Radian 15" coaxial or Beyma, Faital Pro, B & C . With so many really really nice sounding  15" coaxial drivers available why would Spatial use inferior Eminence & P-Audio drivers. Well we all know the answer Spatial is buying the cheapest thing out their and selling them for way way way more than should ever be allowed.

Interesting about the drivers. Heck, look at Klipsch Cornwall III's. Same thing....about $500 in drivers (maybe), $4000+ retail. Speakers have HUGE mark up. God bless Clayton as an entrepreneur. BTW, I've been intrigued by Spatial speakers, but have never listened to them.

Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Birdbrain on 3 Apr 2019, 03:06 am
My M3 Triode Masters arrived this afternoon. They sound incredible, powered by an Audio by Van Alstine Vision SET120 amp. Frank Van Alstine says the amp is probably putting out around 50w/channel into the 12 ohm load. Way more than enough power. That these speakers are going to improve with break in seems almost unbelievable. Thanks, Clayton!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: sumoking on 3 Apr 2019, 05:32 am
If Clayton has $700 in parts and $400 in labor and
makes $1,500 to pay for overhead and profit then god bless him.
He has only made amazing sounding speakers that blows away
the competition allowing him to make some money to reinvest
and designed a higher quality line to keep evolving the brand.
Beautiful business plan!
Go Clayton!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: musicdre on 18 Apr 2019, 11:41 am

that post was classic trolling.  dont feed the troll.

Oh I see, you were just looking for an excuse to spout whatever kool-aid you're slurping off your social media feed. Next few months are gonna be rough for you. Better short that Facebook stock.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: aniwolfe on 24 May 2019, 06:16 pm
First Post here. Recently I bought a new pair of M3 TriodeMasters in White. I have never heard a boxless cone driven speaker system before and I have been very curious about Spatials for a while now. So far from what I am hearing is very impressive. However, they still need more break-in for probably a week or 2. When I fired them up for the first time, I can tell they were different enough from what I had previously owned (Tekton Electron w/upgrade package). They had that 3d sound that is so engaging.

As the break-in has progressed, they as expected sound smoother, more open and bass is tighter. I am powering them with a Lyngdorf 2170 and I can tell you that this pairing works very well. The Bass performance on the TriodeMasters are for sure on a different level compared to the Tektons. Meaning I can hear the bass notes clearly define, which was my biggest issue I had with the Electrons. I love hearing bass guitar notes that are not some bloated congested boom. Bass seems louder on the Spatials as well, more dynamic punch. I love hearing the bass drum beater on the bass skin. I am a drummer so its important for a speaker to portray a drumset well.

Midrange with the Spatials is more natural and slightly more transparent compared to the Tektons. Highs are much more to my liking. Cymbals sound more realistic, they have this smooth shimmer about them that is very appealing. I do appreciate this aspect so much, since I suffer from Tinnitus and Hyperacusis.

Soundstage is more expansive, imaging is much better. You can locate individual notes in the soundfield easier. I felt the Tektons were too congested in comparison. The Tekton did have more height, which is expected since they are taller. But overall the Spatials scale sounds bigger, more dynamic and are Amazing at low volume levels. Magnepans I just recently heard sounded very dull and flat at low volume.

I can't relate to owning a speaker that needs to be cranked to sound good, just not something I can ever be happy with. The Tektons did sound good at low volume, however the Spatials are even better.

So from what I can tell, if you like a speaker that has a Holographic presentation, non-fatiguing, natural sound with dynamic bass, this is a great option. For $4000 I haven't heard a speaker that sounds this good to me. For $3100 the Electrons are good, but the M3 TM sound much better to me for less than $1000 more. Goes to show you how important it is to experience new things for yourself with your equipment in your environment. Give them a try if you haven't already. Oh and thanks Clayton for making these!
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: Wind Chaser on 24 May 2019, 06:53 pm
...the Spatials scale sounds bigger, more dynamic and are Amazing at low volume levels. Magnepans I just recently heard sounded very dull and flat at low volume.

I haven’t heard Maggies in many years, which model are you referring to? 
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: aniwolfe on 24 May 2019, 07:40 pm
I haven’t heard Maggies in many years, which model are you referring to?

I recently heard back to back the .7 and 1.7i's. Nice speaker, just need to be played loud.
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: morganc on 29 May 2019, 04:31 pm
First Post here. Recently I bought a new pair of M3 TriodeMasters in White. I have never heard a boxless cone driven speaker system before and I have been very curious about Spatials for a while now. So far from what I am hearing is very impressive. However, they still need more break-in for probably a week or 2. When I fired them up for the first time, I can tell they were different enough from what I had previously owned (Tekton Electron w/upgrade package). They had that 3d sound that is so engaging.

As the break-in has progressed, they as expected sound smoother, more open and bass is tighter. I am powering them with a Lyngdorf 2170 and I can tell you that this pairing works very well. The Bass performance on the TriodeMasters are for sure on a different level compared to the Tektons. Meaning I can hear the bass notes clearly define, which was my biggest issue I had with the Electrons. I love hearing bass guitar notes that are not some bloated congested boom. Bass seems louder on the Spatials as well, more dynamic punch. I love hearing the bass drum beater on the bass skin. I am a drummer so its important for a speaker to portray a drumset well.

Midrange with the Spatials is more natural and slightly more transparent compared to the Tektons. Highs are much more to my liking. Cymbals sound more realistic, they have this smooth shimmer about them that is very appealing. I do appreciate this aspect so much, since I suffer from Tinnitus and Hyperacusis.

Soundstage is more expansive, imaging is much better. You can locate individual notes in the soundfield easier. I felt the Tektons were to congested in comparison. The Tekton did have more height, which is expected since they are taller. But overall the Spatials scale sounds bigger, more dynamic and are Amazing at low volume levels. Magnepans I just recently heard sounded very dull and flat at low volume.

I can't relate to owning a speaker that needs to be cranked to sound good, just not something I can ever be happy with. The Tektons did sound good at low volume, however the Spatials are even better.

So from what I can tell, if you like a speaker that has a Holographic presentation, non-fatiguing, natural sound with dynamic bass, this is a great option. For $4000 I haven't heard a speaker that sounds this good to me. For $3100 the Electrons are good, but the M3 TM sound much better to me for less than $1000 more. Goes to show you how important it is to experience new things for yourself with your equipment in your environment. Give them a try if you haven't already. Oh and thanks Clayton for making these!

Thank you for the comparison to the Electrons....I'm waiting for someone upgrading to an X Series to offer me a screaming deal on a red pai of M3TM :).
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: mreeter on 29 May 2019, 05:12 pm
Thank you for the comparison to the Electrons....I'm waiting for someone upgrading to an X Series to offer me a screaming deal on a red pai of M3TM :).

Don't know how "screaming" it is, but here you go

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649525015-spatial-audio-triode-master-special-edition/
Title: Re: Spatial M3 Triode Master
Post by: morganc on 29 May 2019, 05:31 pm
That's more like a whisper !  But thank u.