[mlundy57]

I am looking at getting a new USB DAC and am confused about the need or even usefulness of a balanced DAC. The reason for this is that none of my amps , tube or ss, have balanced inputs. Since balanced DACs can cost twice as much as unbalanced ones would there be any sonic benefits in spending the extra money when I can't use the balanced outputs?

Mike 

[paul79]

This depends on how the DAC is made. Some DAC's, primarily R2R DAC's, use the balanced outputs to get the full capabilities of the ladder DAC (more DAC's paralleled), then you can convert balanced to unbalanced with an external solution, such as a signal transformer.

Other DAC's use different output stages for balanced or unbalanced output. Sometimes one will sound better than the other, depending on how they create the output of each. For example, the Auralic Vega. It uses a fully discrete Orfeo output stage at the balanced outputs, and creates its unbalanced output from an opamp. So the balanced output, if you can use it, sounds better with this particular DAC. This has nothing to do with it being balanced or unbalanced, it's just a better sounding, more transparent output in this case. One does not really need a balanced consumer system. This is designed for long cable runs and noisy environments more than for sound quality.

[mlundy57]

This depends on how the DAC is made. Some DAC's, primarily R2R DAC's, use the balanced outputs to get the full capabilities of the ladder DAC (more DAC's paralleled), then you can convert balanced to unbalanced with an external solution, such as a signal transformer.

Other DAC's use different output stages for balanced or unbalanced output. Sometimes one will sound better than the other, depending on how they create the output of each. For example, the Auralic Vega. It uses a fully discrete Orfeo output stage at the balanced outputs, and creates the unbalanced output from an opamp. So the balanced output, if you can use it, sounds better with this particular DAC. This has nothing to do with it being balanced or unbalanced, it's just a better sounding, more transparent output in this case. One does not really need a balanced consumer system. This is designed for long cable runs and noisy environments more than for sound quality.

Paul,

Thanks.

I am currently using an iFi micro iDSD DAC in my personal system (Jolida tube preamp & amp and GR-Research LGK Wedgie speakers). Since this is considered a portable DAC/headphone amp I was looking for something that might be more appropriate in a stationary system. I have been looking at the Geek Pulse, unbalanced @ $400; the Geek Pulse X, balanced/dual mono @ $777 (for another week or so before the go up to full retail of $999 & $1,799 respectively); the still under development iFi mini iDSD, balanced (unsure of target price), or the OPPO HA-1, balanced @ $1,200.

At this point my ignorance is a handicap because a lot of the feature/spec information is jargon to me. I understand the words but don't know how they relate to sound quality.

Mike

[paul79]

A Chord Qute EX picked up on the used market is one sensational and affordable DAC. I recommend it very highly. It offers more solidity and substance that other cheaper DAC's don't get right, and its USB input is really great.

[mlundy57]

A Chord Qute EX picked up on the used market is one sensational and affordable DAC. I recommend it very highly. It offers more solidity and substance that other cheaper DAC's don't get right, and its USB input is really great.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Mike

[ebag4]

Mike,
I have been using a geek out dac while waiting for my geek pulse s/f/i (dual mono unbalanced dac with femto clock and op-amp upgrade).  The reason I purchased the pulse is because I am so happy with the very portable geek out.  I opted not to get the balanced version because all of my equipment is unbalanced, but lately I have been wondering if I should have perhaps better future proofed myself with the balanced version.  I guess time will tell. 

The geek sounds fantastic with my tortuga volume control>Bottlehead 2A3 stereomour>gr research wedgies with servo subs.

Sorry, no help with your question.

[mlundy57]

Mike,
I have been using a geek out dac while waiting for my geek pulse s/f/i (dual mono unbalanced dac with femto clock and op-amp upgrade).  The reason I purchased the pulse is because I am so happy with the very portable geek out.  I opted not to get the balanced version because all of my equipment is unbalanced, but lately I have been wondering if I should have perhaps better future proofed myself with the balanced version.  I guess time will tell. 

The geek sounds fantastic with my tortuga volume control>Bottlehead 2A3 stereomour>gr research wedgies with servo subs.

Sorry, no help with your question.

Ed,

The version of the pulse you backed isn't being offered at this time. They have three versions active on Indegogo right now, the Pulse (unbalanced), the Pulse X (balanced/dual mono) and the Pulse X/fi (which is like yours but balanced). Currently the Pulse is $399, the Pulse X is $777 and the Pulse X/fi is $1,399.

I also have a GeekOut 450 in my office system as well as a micro iDSD and the DACs in my OPPO 105D in othe systems. Each has their strengths but none are exactly what I want in this system.  The OPPO is the easiest to setup and use but neither it nor the Geek Pulse will play all the file types I have (although I don't have very many DSD256 files anyway). The micro iDSD plays all my files but is more difficult to use, especially when I forget to walk over to the system and turn it off. When this happens the battery drains and then has to be recharged for at least a few hours before I can use it again. Plus I would think it's lack of size would necessarily limit it's capabilities for a home system.

Other than that I guess what it comes down to is the sound of  BB (iFi) vs ESS (Geek & OPPO).  I can tell a difference, BB is a little smother/warmer while ESS has more clarity/separation.  The differences aren't that big and I can't say which one I like better. It may not be a case of one being better anyway, just different.

At the current prices I'll probably order a Geek Pulse, not sure which model though.

Mike

[mresseguie]

Mike,

Have you looked into the Eastern Electric Supreme DSD DAC ($1350)? It's on my list of potential DACs when I get around to upgrading.

Here's a link to a review:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/eastern-electric-ready-supreme-and-junior-minimax-dsd-dacse/

Best of luck (and enjoy the hunt!),

Michael

[asliarun]

I asked this same question to kingwa from Audio GD before I purchased one of his DACs. He said that for most of his designs, he will not save too much moneyin engineering cost  if he did unbalanced in his mid end and high end DACs. He does over engineer his DACs and I thought his reply was quite interesting.

[JohnR]

I am currently using an iFi micro iDSD DAC in my personal system (Jolida tube preamp & amp and GR-Research LGK Wedgie speakers). Since this is considered a portable DAC/headphone amp I was looking for something that might be more appropriate in a stationary system. I have been looking at the Geek Pulse, unbalanced @ $400; the Geek Pulse X, balanced/dual mono @ $777 (for another week or so before the go up to full retail of $999 & $1,799 respectively); the still under development iFi mini iDSD, balanced (unsure of target price), or the OPPO HA-1, balanced @ $1,200.

Hi there, I've been using a Geek Pulse for the past week and am really quite impressed. With regard to your OP, if you are not planning to use balanced connections, it's hard to see how much benefit there would be to going to an X. The Xfi might/should yield benefits, but honestly I feel it's anyone's guess at this point as to how much. The $ might be better put towards a power supply (and you don't have to get the LH Labs one). How it compares to the iDSD Micro is also a bit of a guess, I don't think I've seen anyone compare yet.


I'd appreciate it if anyone posting about the Geek Pulse could use this "official AudioCircle link": http://igg.me/at/geekpulseaudio/x/5206537 - thank you

[Edit: let me also add that some issues with using anything other than USB seem to have come to light... I'll test and report back..........]

[JLM]

A Chord Qute EX picked up on the used market is one sensational and affordable DAC. I recommend it very highly. It offers more solidity and substance that other cheaper DAC's don't get right, and its USB input is really great.

Thanks for the heads up.  It seems the Chord DACs really bring out the best of Redbook, which should be important to all audiophiles, yet also handles the higher resolution/DSD formats.  Hugo is a bit more, but better resolution and designed for portable use.

Another option, affordable, tiny, simple, with high sonic qualities is the Halide Design DAC ($450, included attached high quality USB/RCA cables up to 7 meters long, 2014 Stereophile Class A rated, no lights/controls/options).

[barrows]

Some technical points to consider:

1.  Almost all commonly used DAC chips output a balanced analog signal.

2.  Most DACs under discussion here (it seems these are DACs under $2K) are going to be using IC opamps for their I/V-output stages.

3.  A DAC as above with balanced outputs and single ended outputs can be done a couple of ways: two (dual) IC OPAs per channel to produce the balanced outputs, followed by a single dual IC OPA to sum the balanced signal for the single ended output.  Or: fully separate output stages with two IC OPAs per channel for the balanced output and then one dual IC OPA to sum the outputs followed by one (single) IC OPA perchannel to drive the single ended output.

If a DAC has only single ended outputs, then one can have just the dual OPA followed by single OPA, per channel, to drive the single ended outputs.  Hopefully, no manufacturer, is just taking half of the balanced signal from the DAC chip and sending that to the single ended outputs, as this approach would lower the S/N ration by 6 dB, and raise distortion at the same time.

Conclusion: to make an informed choice you really need to know the internal topography of the output stage(s) and how the single ended output is created.  True balanced output will be better if it is going into a true balanced input, so if you plan on getting a DAC and keeping it for a long time, and maybe having a balanced input sometime in the future, you might consider getting a DAC with balanced and single ended outputs.
Otherwise, if you are most concerned with getting a DAC with the best performance from the single ended outputs, this will most likely happen when you choose a DAC with single ended outputs only, but not in every case...

[mlundy57]

Mike,

Have you looked into the Eastern Electric Supreme DSD DAC ($1350)? It's on my list of potential DACs when I get around to upgrading.

Here's a link to a review:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/eastern-electric-ready-supreme-and-junior-minimax-dsd-dacse/

Best of luck (and enjoy the hunt!),

Michael

Thanks

Mike

[mlundy57]

Some technical points to consider:

1.  Almost all commonly used DAC chips output a balanced analog signal.

2.  Most DACs under discussion here (it seems these are DACs under $2K) are going to be using IC opamps for their I/V-output stages.

3.  A DAC as above with balanced outputs and single ended outputs can be done a couple of ways: two (dual) IC OPAs per channel to produce the balanced outputs, followed by a single dual IC OPA to sum the balanced signal for the single ended output.  Or: fully separate output stages with two IC OPAs per channel for the balanced output and then one dual IC OPA to sum the outputs followed by one (single) IC OPA perchannel to drive the single ended output.

If a DAC has only single ended outputs, then one can have just the dual OPA followed by single OPA, per channel, to drive the single ended outputs.  Hopefully, no manufacturer, is just taking half of the balanced signal from the DAC chip and sending that to the single ended outputs, as this approach would lower the S/N ration by 6 dB, and raise distortion at the same time.

Conclusion: to make an informed choice you really need to know the internal topography of the output stage(s) and how the single ended output is created.  True balanced output will be better if it is going into a true balanced input, so if you plan on getting a DAC and keeping it for a long time, and maybe having a balanced input sometime in the future, you might consider getting a DAC with balanced and single ended outputs.
Otherwise, if you are most concerned with getting a DAC with the best performance from the single ended outputs, this will most likely happen when you choose a DAC with single ended outputs only, but not in every case...

This is good to know, thanks.

Mike