6CG7 Tube Reviews

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stephennic

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #20 on: 9 Feb 2012, 01:12 pm »
The 1950's Raytheon black plates are my favorite tube.  They have a slightly warmer more liquid sound with greater depth but give up just a little air and transparency when they are paired together in both my preamp and DAC.  They are the least sibilant of my tubes and pair well with most other tubes.  They are a great preamp tube.  A very good friend of mine who is an audiophile commented on how much he liked my system with the Raytheons.  He thought it was the best the system has sounded.

The RCA black plates have a slightly laid back thinner sound but have more air and wider sound stage with good treble.  I think they sounded better in the preamp than the DAC.  If you really want to know I can look up my notes that I keep on the tubes.

I have one other set of tubes to try and then I am done tube rolling.  I may have quite a few tubes to sell in a couple of months.

Hi,

It sounds like you have tried a lot of 6cg7.  I wouldnt mind hearing your impressions on the sound of the different tubes youve tried. I am now choosing two pairs. How would you compare the RCA clear tops to the RCA black plates, Jan GE and Raytheon, they are currently my options. If anyone else wants to add their impressions  too that would be great. :)

Cheers

Steve

murf

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #21 on: 9 Feb 2012, 02:20 pm »
The 1950's Raytheon black plates are my favorite tube.  They have a slightly warmer more liquid sound with greater depth but give up just a little air and transparency...

The RCA black plates have a slightly laid back thinner sound but have more air and wider sound stage with good treble.  I think they sounded better in the preamp than the DAC.  If you really want to know I can look up my notes that I keep on the tubes.


Thanks 'Dog.

Murf
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2012, 02:41 pm by murf »

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #22 on: 10 Feb 2012, 05:17 am »
The RCA clear tops have a lot of detail but I found them to be sibilant.  They have good bass and a wide sound stage.  Again they lean a little to the sunny side of neutral in my system.  They worked better in the preamp than the Ultra DAC. 

Just remember that I am running a pair of Magnepan QR 1.6's and the tweeters tend to be a little hot. My Parasound A21 amp also has a lot of HF sparkle.  And when I say sibilant its not on every CD.

murf

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #23 on: 10 Feb 2012, 02:33 pm »
Thanks again Greyhound,
 

Murf
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2012, 02:42 pm by murf »

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #24 on: 11 Feb 2012, 01:58 am »
Here are some links for some RCA clear top 6CG7's-

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/rca%20clear%20top%206cg7?_dmd=2&_cpr=249&clk_rvr_id=314805564176&MT_ID=70&crlp=7571690080_9406&tt_encode=raw&geo_id=1&keyword=rca+clear+top+6cg7&adgroup_id=2130936640

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6cg7-rca.html

http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6cg7.html


The Clear tops are fairly easy to find.  I have bought quite a few used tubes in good to excellent condition.  I would consider going used if you are rolling and not sure if you will like the tubes.

MarkM

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #25 on: 11 Feb 2012, 02:20 am »
Thanks Greyhound,
  I haven't figured out what a 'clear top' is, and haven't seen any for sale.  Are they from the '50s?  How many mica, what color plates?   Are they, "...the most highly sought after version 12AT7 RCA ever made!"?  :oops: :icon_twisted:
  My speakers (& my FV amp) rarely have sibilance probs or sound too lite, but I think a little weight is nice.  Sounds like 50's Raytheon BP moves to the top of my list...Que Quanto coste?
Murf


This thread is titled 6CG7 tube reviews.....nothing about 12AT7 clear tops.  Back on topic:

The 6CG7 black plate US MADE Raytheon is a very hard tube to find, most Raytheons are the Japanese version.  I like the Ray B.P. put them back in the Ultra preamp this week and the one thing they do in my system is move the sound plane to the front of the speakers, not quite as extended on the top end, but a detailed clear sound with zero fatigue.  I like the depth of the clear tops, but the clarity of the Raytheons.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #26 on: 11 Feb 2012, 01:10 pm »

This thread is titled 6CG7 tube reviews.....nothing about 12AT7 clear tops.  Back on topic:

The 6CG7 black plate US MADE Raytheon is a very hard tube to find, most Raytheons are the Japanese version.  I like the Ray B.P. put them back in the Ultra preamp this week and the one thing they do in my system is move the sound plane to the front of the speakers, not quite as extended on the top end, but a detailed clear sound with zero fatigue.  I like the depth of the clear tops, but the clarity of the Raytheons.

In my system the Ray BP's move the sound to the middle ground and have more depth but less transparency.  But they are smooth and liquids with zero fatigue as you say.  They are hard to find.  I have a source for used ones.  My next tube to try are the Sylvania Black Plates from the 1950's.  They are supposed to a warmer tube with good bass. 

stephennic

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #27 on: 11 Feb 2012, 02:15 pm »
Hi Greyhound fan,

Can you give a direct comparison with the RCA clear top, with RCA blackplates and, Jan GE and Raytheon. I find the ei 6cg7 tube in my pre amp a little rolled off at the top and maybe lacked a bit of bass punch and clarity.What tube would you recommend - I like a natural open sound (3d imaging), with sparkle and air up top

Cheers

Steve

trackball02

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #28 on: 11 Feb 2012, 09:27 pm »
I'm running GE 6CG7s in my Avastar pre. Compared to the sock tubes, much better bottom end without any compromises in the mids and highs. It seems to be a good match in my system (Ultravalve amp and Zu Soul Superflys).

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #29 on: 12 Feb 2012, 03:45 am »
Hi Greyhound fan,

Can you give a direct comparison with the RCA clear top, with RCA blackplates and, Jan GE and Raytheon. I find the ei 6cg7 tube in my pre amp a little rolled off at the top and maybe lacked a bit of bass punch and clarity.What tube would you recommend - I like a natural open sound (3d imaging), with sparkle and air up top

Cheers


Steve

I dont know if you would get much better top end than with the stock EH tubes.  I find their top end to be vey detailed in my system.  The RCA CT's have a good detailed top end and deep bass in my preamp, more so than the RCA BP's which are a little more laid back. 

« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2012, 12:28 pm by I.Greyhound Fan »

festuss

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #30 on: 12 Feb 2012, 12:17 pm »
 :cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear.  Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components. 

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #31 on: 12 Feb 2012, 12:27 pm »
:cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear.  Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components.

No changes.  Same sitting position, same gear.  The differences in the tubes in my system are not subtle and in most cases are dramatic.

dminches

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #32 on: 12 Feb 2012, 03:51 pm »
:cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear.  Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components.

No tests can be perfectly scientific and I do question some discussion of tube rolling impressions, especially when people listen to 3,4 5 sets of tubes in one session.

I have 4-5 different songs that I listen to every time I change tubes.  They have a wide range of instruments and dynamics so I can do my best to distinguish one tube from another.  I do think I have a good enough sense of how each of the songs sound that I can pick up on subtle differences.


rcag_ils

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #33 on: 12 Feb 2012, 05:57 pm »
Changing tubes to me is altering the original design, it may sound different after new tubes are installed, sounding better or worse is open for debate, but one thing for sure, the sound that the designer wanted is changed. I don't bother to spend my time to do this kind of thing, when the tubes go bad, just change them out. Another  :deadhorse:

dminches

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #34 on: 12 Feb 2012, 06:01 pm »
Changing tubes to me is altering the original design, it may sound different after new tubes are installed, sounding better or worse is open for debate, but one thing for sure, the sound that the designer wanted is changed. I don't bother to spend my time to do this kind of thing, when the tubes go bad, just change them out. Another  :deadhorse:

How is it changing the original design if you are using the same tube type?  Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes.  The company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them. How is that any different than tube rolling or am I missing your point?

 

Brett Buck

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #35 on: 12 Feb 2012, 07:40 pm »
Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes.

   Why do you think the new production tubes are crappy? After all, as you noted, they are the same type.

   For example, I think the new JJ 12AX7/ECC83s are generally better than Telefunkens, at least in my application. The sound is close to the same and the JJs are not microphonic like the Telefunkens.

    Brett

festuss

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #36 on: 12 Feb 2012, 08:34 pm »
 :scratch: What is Generic crappy tubes?  JJ Tesla work fine, as do some other brands. So you know better than AVA in using what stuff works just fine?  How is it, everyone knows more than the mfg, in audio, cars, wonder why they ain't making the stuff, since they know better.  Funny.  New Production is meaning it's crappy?  Why are tubes that have been sitting around 30-50 years some magical better sound?

dminches

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #37 on: 12 Feb 2012, 09:02 pm »
I can only go by what my ears hear.  I haven't done a ton of tube rolling with the 6CG7s but I have with 6SN7s (same electrical characteristics) and there is no comparison in new vs. old.  I have spoken to Frank about this directly and he agrees.  And, a could make a list of manufacturers that ship the equipment with new production tubes but list old production upgrades.

One manufacturer ship their $8500 pre amp with new production Electro-harmonix tubes that are horrible.  Shipping with either NOS tubes or higher quality new production would increase the cost significantly. 

My understand is that old production tubes used different metals than those are now used in new production.  That may have something to do with it.

rcag_ils

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Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #38 on: 12 Feb 2012, 09:19 pm »
Quote
How is it changing the original design if you are using the same tube type?  Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes.  The company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them. How is that any different than tube rolling or am I missing your point?

That generic, crappy new production tubes in the unit are the same tube that the manufacturers, in this case AVA do their bench test on before they ship it.

I doubt that Frank has a set of gourmet tubes there only for bench test purpose, or after the unit passed the bench test, he stuck a pair of generic, crappy JJ tubes in there, then ship the unit to you.

Substituting tubes with different made, with different manufacturing method, with different response curve is altering the original design. You would hear the difference, better or worse is all psychological.

Tube rolling is similar to putting magic caps in the unit by the customers, but not as bad, at least same type of different made tubes won't screw up the circuit, but keep doing it may wear out the tube sockets, it will keep them clean and shiny though. Tube rolling will also increase the chance of damaging the unit. Most people end up leaving the cover off with the unit on, then dropping something in there while the unit is hot. Or keep taking the cover on and off, end up stripping the chassis sheet metal screw holes or the screws. Bad idea overall.

As far as  for "the company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them" part, it's a selling pitch. It gives the customers a sense of empowerment, it makes them feel like they are in control. Actually companies recommed to purchase tubes from them because their tubes might have been matched and tested in the factory, so using them will increase the probability of operational success.

dminches

Re: 6CG7 Tube Reviews
« Reply #39 on: 12 Feb 2012, 09:26 pm »
I wasn't referring to Frank in my comment about shipping with lousy tubes.

If you don't hear a difference from one tube to another then you have saved yourself a lot of money.  But, to say that no one else can hear a difference is self-serving.

I do a good amount of tube rolling and have never damaged anything.

Why don't you PM Frank and ask him about his experience in running NOS 6SN7s in the hybrid DAC?