AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: I.Greyhound Fan on 13 Aug 2010, 08:57 pm
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I have recently gone through a lot 6CG7 tubes and thought it may be helpful to give a review of the different tubes I have used. But first, I would like to tell about my most recent purchase.
I've finally found audio nirvana! I just bought a pair of nos Amperex 6CG7 tubes and placed them in my Ultra DAC and paired them with RCA Clear Tops in my Ultra Pre Amp with the stock opamps. From the very moment that I listened to that combination I was stunned by how good the sound is. I have been looking for quite a while for the right combination of tubes that would give me a sound that was on the warm side of neutral with good transparency, air,sound stage, bass,treble and resolution as well as a smooth mid range. I have found that combination with the Amperex and Clear tops. The Amperex tubes produce a lot of deep, tight and smooth bass. The treble is crystal clear and natural and the sound has great depth realism and detail. I am using Magnepan 1.6 speakers and a Parasound Halo SS A21 amp and the amperex tubes bring out every last bit of bass that the Maggies can produce and then some. You would also be hard pressed to tell that I'm using a solid state amp instead of a tube amp. I like the tubes so much that I just bought 4 more today for $70 off ebay. They will be the last tubes that I buy.
Now for the tube review.
Equipment used- Van Alstine Ultra DAC with stock opamps, Ultra Pre Amp, Parasound Halo A21 amp, Music Hall 25.2 CDP as a transport.
Music- Jazz, Vocal Jazz, Blue's, Classical and Rock.
Tubes tested in order of my personal favorites (all are NOS 6CG7's unless stated otherwise).-
Amperex
RCA Clear Tops
Tung Sol's
Mazda-Brimar's
1960's Sylvania's with the Yellow Lettering (the green lettering is from the 1950's and is supposed to be better sounding but they are hard to come by)
Sovtek 6N1P's
Electro Harmonix 6CG7's-worst of the bunch
Amperex tubes-
Smooth clean sound with great depth and presence to the music with excellent well controlled tight bass, clear clean treble and timbre (cymbals sounded very natural with good decay and the leading edge of piano notes was smooth with no ring) and a very sweet midrange. They lean to the slightly warmer side of neutral. Good sound stage, average to above average air and transparency when used in my DAC with the RCA Clear tops in my Preamp. I think that they present less air because of the depth of the music which really has a live sound to it. My only criticism is that they may produce too much bass for some tastes.
RCA Clear Tops-
Stregnths are very wide sound stage with tremendous air and transparency. Good bass and well balanced sound but they tend to lean on the brighter side of neutral and can be slightly ssssibilant. They pair well with other tubes and do well in a DAC and Pre amp.
When I used the RCA's paired together in both my DAC and Pre the sound stage appeared almost infinite and the music was the most transparent. Treble seems to have less resolution but it was pleasing. I really love the sound stage, air and transparency. With certain music and listening in the dark
the sound can be mesmerizing. If the sound was only a little warmer with less sibilance this would be may favorite combination. And at times I may switch back and forth with the Amperex tubes in my DAC.
Tung Sols-
These tubes could have ranked up there with the Amperex as they have excellent bass and midrange with a very smooth, liquid sound with good depth and realism but treble was slightly pushed back for my taste. They present a good sound stage but only average air and transparency. They would be a great choice if you like to listen to Rock and roll and older brightly recorded Cd's. They sounded equally good in both my DAC and Pre when paired with the RCA's.
Mazda-Brimar's
These tubes really are a funky tube. They do best in the DAC and need careful matching with other tubes. When used in my Pre they have too much bass and it seems too loose. But in my DAC they are warm and smooth sounding with a very natural sound, however they seem to lack bass when paired with the RCA's in the Pre. (note that I had upgraded to the Burr Brown Op Amps in my DAC for a while and the Mazda's had excellent bass in the DAC and boomy bass in the Pre, I have since removed the BB Op Amps and put back in the stock OA's.). The Mazda's would be great in my system if I used a sub.
Sylvania's
These tubes have a very neutral sound. They have very good resolution other than that they are average in all area's. I could live with these tubes but there are better out there. They seem more suited for my DAC. In my preamp the bass was just a little loose sounding with bass heavy music.
Electro Harmonix-
Where do I start! These are supposed to be exact copies of the RCA Clear tops but they sure don't sound like it. They had no sonically redeeming qualities in my system. They were way too bright with irritating sharp harsh treble and they lacked bass. Vocals sounded less natural and the midrange sounded dead. They were also very ssssibilant.
6N1P Sovteks-
Good overall sound as these were the stock tubes in both my DAC and Pre. But the 6CG7's just sound better with more depth and resolution to the music (except for the Elctro Harmonix tubes). If I had not heard the 6CG7's I could be perfectly happy with them.
I hope this helps some but every one has different equipment and tastes.
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Wow. That was a lot of work - swapping, listening, swapping, listening. Excellent review - thank you.
My AvaStar is new so I'm going to listen for a while and I went a got a new FET Valve which also has a tube front end. I don't want to get too confused. I have some RCA clear tops I'll try in the pre when I get more familiar with the system sound.
How much time did you spend listening to each tube change - just curious.
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I would say I gave each tube between 8-30 hours of listening. Not really long enough to break them in but you could pretty much tell immediately which sounded good and which didnt. (my 19 yo son helped me and we generally agreed on the sound) I did a lot of swapping with different combo's of the different brands. One thing that became clear is that the RCA Clear tops generally sounded the best when paired with all other tubes.
There were other tube combinations that sounded pretty good but it would take too long to write them up.
The only other tubes that I may give a listen to are NOS RCA Black Plates which are supposed to have a huge sound stage and more air than the Clear Tops but they are also supposed to be a little brighter. They may pair well with the Amperex and Tung Sols to give me a little of the huge sound stage and air that I like. I may also find a pair of the 1950's Sylvania's.
I'll eventually end up selling the tubes that I don't like but I'm planning on eventually buying some more Van Alstine tube gear for my second system in the future.
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Excellent write-up! It will prove helpful to many!! Thanks so much for taking the time. Now, where to find some Amperex tubes. :lol:
I hope this helps some but every one has different equipment and tastes.
That's true, but even with the very different presentations of our speakers (HT3's and 1.6's) we did experience many similiarities. It probably helps that we both prefer some warmth and want FULL range in the bass.
Thanks again, very cool it worked out so well for you. :thumb: 8)
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I received another 4 Amperex tubes in the mail earlier today and I am now running the Amperex in both my DAC and PRE. The sound is excellent. A little warmer than when I had then Clear Tops in the Pre. There is slightly more bass but the slight sibilance is gone and there is more presence to the music. I have to do about 20 hours of listening till I decide if I like runnning 4 amperex or 2 amperex and 2 Clear Tops. By the way, I had switched the RCA's to the DAC and the Amperex to the Pre. That combo leaned a little to the bright side of neutral and was fairly sibilant. It appears from all my testing that the RCA's are best suited to my Preamp in my system. I suppose if I had a tube amp or fully tube pre or dac that the RCA's would be less sibilant.
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If any one is interested, 5 6CG7 amperex tubes are available on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/One-NEW-NOS-6CG7-6FQ7-Amperex-tube-/230497084910
Larry
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Thanks for the update IGF. Between you, martyo, (& others in the original thread) eventually I'll get around to trying the alternate options. I do prefer the Mazda-Brimars to the Sovteks in my T-8, with my DCM-7's. But am looking forward to trying the others noted by the both of you.
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http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo/Phlipscode.htm
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If any one is interested, 5 6CG7 amperex tubes are available on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/One-NEW-NOS-6CG7-6FQ7-Amperex-tube-/230497084910
Larry
"Now we are 7." I mean, there is 1 available now. :eyebrows:
Thanks Larry :thumb: 8)
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Note that a tube brand that works well in one specific circuit design might not be the best choice in a different design.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Note that a tube brand that works well in one specific circuit design might not be the best choice in a different design.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
Yep, thats why I ended my review with the statement "every one has different equipment and tastes". What works for me may not work for others.
And by the way. I know I rated the Electro Harmonix poorly, but just out of curiosity today I tried them in my preamp paired with the Amperex in my DAC and I was pleasantly surprised at the sound. They actually sound better than the RCA clear tops in this configuarion although the sound is similar. The sound leans a bit on the bright side but resolution is better and cymbals sound crisper more clear. They also present a bit more transparency and air.
I find it interesting how a tube can sound so bad to me when paired with so many other tubes but paired with the Amperex the sound is pretty sweet. I still prefer the combo of the Amperex in both my Pre and DAC.
Frank, if you would like I would be happy to bring over my DAC and Pre and some of my tubes for you to compare. For me, the Amperex and some of the other tubes I have tried have taken my AVA gear to an even higher level of sound and enjoyment.
Larry
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Hi,
What are the Jan GE 6cg7 like soundwise? Is GE amperex brand? I have Ei 6cg7 in my valve preamp. How do they compare with the NOS tubes you reviewed.
Cheers
Steve.
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To add to this discussion, I have been using 6SN7s with adapters in my FET Valve DAC since there are so many great choices with the those. I had to modify the cover since the tubes plus the adapters are taller than the case.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57001)
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Did you use Greenlee knock out to cut those holes?
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I have not tried any GE tubes, my Amprex probably were made by GE. The best tubes that I have found so far are 1950's Raytheon Black Plates. They have a slightly warmer sound with a rich deep midrange, good bass, transparency and detail. I am using them in my preamp. I also found some 1950's GE Black Plates which work great in the preamp but lack bass in my DAC. They have tremendous air and transparency. I also have recently tried some 1950's Tung Sol Black Plates which are pretty good but a little brighter sounding than the Raytheons. The problem that I have been running into with my Ultra DAC II and the 6CG7 tubes is that they can be ssssssibilant with my Magnepan 1.6 speakers.
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Did you use Greenlee knock out to cut those holes?
No. I ended up using a circular hole bit. The greenlee option would have been very expensive. Instead I used the hole saw bit with a guide bit.
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To add to this discussion, I have been using 6SN7s with adapters in my FET Valve DAC since there are so many great choices with the those. I had to modify the cover since the tubes plus the adapters are taller than the case.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57001)
I have been using Black Treasure CV181-Z with adapter as well in my Fet Valve Ultra+ preamp. I like seeing the tubes exposed. Drilled mine and had some aluminum rings anodized black. CV181-Z have great depth, separation, staging and extension on both ends. Have tried a few NOS 6CG7's(Tung-sol, Amperex, Clear Tops, RCA Black Plates, Sylvania) and it is all dependent on the tubes upstream in my amps.(Rogue M-150's).
I would experiment as the wallet allows.....IMHO you can never have too many tubes on hand to change the mood! :wink:
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+1 on never having enough tubes
Neal :wave:
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Hi all,
What are the RCA blackplate "Fat D getter" type or rayheon glass like sonically.
Cheers
Steve.
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The 1950's Raytheon black plates are my favorite tube. They have a slightly warmer more liquid sound with greater depth but give up just a little air and transparency when they are paired together in both my preamp and DAC. They are the least sibilant of my tubes and pair well with most other tubes. They are a great preamp tube. A very good friend of mine who is an audiophile commented on how much he liked my system with the Raytheons. He thought it was the best the system has sounded.
The RCA black plates have a slightly laid back thinner sound but have more air and wider sound stage with good treble. I think they sounded better in the preamp than the DAC. If you really want to know I can look up my notes that I keep on the tubes.
I have one other set of tubes to try and then I am done tube rolling. I may have quite a few tubes to sell in a couple of months.
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The 1950's Raytheon black plates are my favorite tube. They have a slightly warmer more liquid sound with greater depth but give up just a little air and transparency when they are paired together in both my preamp and DAC. They are the least sibilant of my tubes and pair well with most other tubes. They are a great preamp tube. A very good friend of mine who is an audiophile commented on how much he liked my system with the Raytheons. He thought it was the best the system has sounded.
The RCA black plates have a slightly laid back thinner sound but have more air and wider sound stage with good treble. I think they sounded better in the preamp than the DAC. If you really want to know I can look up my notes that I keep on the tubes.
I have one other set of tubes to try and then I am done tube rolling. I may have quite a few tubes to sell in a couple of months.
Hi,
It sounds like you have tried a lot of 6cg7. I wouldnt mind hearing your impressions on the sound of the different tubes youve tried. I am now choosing two pairs. How would you compare the RCA clear tops to the RCA black plates, Jan GE and Raytheon, they are currently my options. If anyone else wants to add their impressions too that would be great. :)
Cheers
Steve
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The 1950's Raytheon black plates are my favorite tube. They have a slightly warmer more liquid sound with greater depth but give up just a little air and transparency...
The RCA black plates have a slightly laid back thinner sound but have more air and wider sound stage with good treble. I think they sounded better in the preamp than the DAC. If you really want to know I can look up my notes that I keep on the tubes.
Thanks 'Dog.
Murf
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The RCA clear tops have a lot of detail but I found them to be sibilant. They have good bass and a wide sound stage. Again they lean a little to the sunny side of neutral in my system. They worked better in the preamp than the Ultra DAC.
Just remember that I am running a pair of Magnepan QR 1.6's and the tweeters tend to be a little hot. My Parasound A21 amp also has a lot of HF sparkle. And when I say sibilant its not on every CD.
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Thanks again Greyhound,
Murf
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Here are some links for some RCA clear top 6CG7's-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/rca%20clear%20top%206cg7?_dmd=2&_cpr=249&clk_rvr_id=314805564176&MT_ID=70&crlp=7571690080_9406&tt_encode=raw&geo_id=1&keyword=rca+clear+top+6cg7&adgroup_id=2130936640
http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6cg7-rca.html
http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6cg7.html
The Clear tops are fairly easy to find. I have bought quite a few used tubes in good to excellent condition. I would consider going used if you are rolling and not sure if you will like the tubes.
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Thanks Greyhound,
I haven't figured out what a 'clear top' is, and haven't seen any for sale. Are they from the '50s? How many mica, what color plates? Are they, "...the most highly sought after version 12AT7 RCA ever made!"? :oops: :icon_twisted:
My speakers (& my FV amp) rarely have sibilance probs or sound too lite, but I think a little weight is nice. Sounds like 50's Raytheon BP moves to the top of my list...Que Quanto coste?
Murf
This thread is titled 6CG7 tube reviews.....nothing about 12AT7 clear tops. Back on topic:
The 6CG7 black plate US MADE Raytheon is a very hard tube to find, most Raytheons are the Japanese version. I like the Ray B.P. put them back in the Ultra preamp this week and the one thing they do in my system is move the sound plane to the front of the speakers, not quite as extended on the top end, but a detailed clear sound with zero fatigue. I like the depth of the clear tops, but the clarity of the Raytheons.
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This thread is titled 6CG7 tube reviews.....nothing about 12AT7 clear tops. Back on topic:
The 6CG7 black plate US MADE Raytheon is a very hard tube to find, most Raytheons are the Japanese version. I like the Ray B.P. put them back in the Ultra preamp this week and the one thing they do in my system is move the sound plane to the front of the speakers, not quite as extended on the top end, but a detailed clear sound with zero fatigue. I like the depth of the clear tops, but the clarity of the Raytheons.
In my system the Ray BP's move the sound to the middle ground and have more depth but less transparency. But they are smooth and liquids with zero fatigue as you say. They are hard to find. I have a source for used ones. My next tube to try are the Sylvania Black Plates from the 1950's. They are supposed to a warmer tube with good bass.
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Hi Greyhound fan,
Can you give a direct comparison with the RCA clear top, with RCA blackplates and, Jan GE and Raytheon. I find the ei 6cg7 tube in my pre amp a little rolled off at the top and maybe lacked a bit of bass punch and clarity.What tube would you recommend - I like a natural open sound (3d imaging), with sparkle and air up top
Cheers
Steve
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I'm running GE 6CG7s in my Avastar pre. Compared to the sock tubes, much better bottom end without any compromises in the mids and highs. It seems to be a good match in my system (Ultravalve amp and Zu Soul Superflys).
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Hi Greyhound fan,
Can you give a direct comparison with the RCA clear top, with RCA blackplates and, Jan GE and Raytheon. I find the ei 6cg7 tube in my pre amp a little rolled off at the top and maybe lacked a bit of bass punch and clarity.What tube would you recommend - I like a natural open sound (3d imaging), with sparkle and air up top
Cheers
Steve
I dont know if you would get much better top end than with the stock EH tubes. I find their top end to be vey detailed in my system. The RCA CT's have a good detailed top end and deep bass in my preamp, more so than the RCA BP's which are a little more laid back.
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:cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear. Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components.
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:cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear. Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components.
No changes. Same sitting position, same gear. The differences in the tubes in my system are not subtle and in most cases are dramatic.
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:cry: With all this talk of hearing such differences, in tubes, did anyone do any blind tests, to assure it's just not because you know you changed something, so of course it has to be different? And of course you are positioned EXACTLY in the same spot to listen, the slightest change in ear position can alter what you hear. Something folks at "subjective" review magazines seem to ignore, and make outrageous claims about huge differences, in components.
No tests can be perfectly scientific and I do question some discussion of tube rolling impressions, especially when people listen to 3,4 5 sets of tubes in one session.
I have 4-5 different songs that I listen to every time I change tubes. They have a wide range of instruments and dynamics so I can do my best to distinguish one tube from another. I do think I have a good enough sense of how each of the songs sound that I can pick up on subtle differences.
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Changing tubes to me is altering the original design, it may sound different after new tubes are installed, sounding better or worse is open for debate, but one thing for sure, the sound that the designer wanted is changed. I don't bother to spend my time to do this kind of thing, when the tubes go bad, just change them out. Another :deadhorse:
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Changing tubes to me is altering the original design, it may sound different after new tubes are installed, sounding better or worse is open for debate, but one thing for sure, the sound that the designer wanted is changed. I don't bother to spend my time to do this kind of thing, when the tubes go bad, just change them out. Another :deadhorse:
How is it changing the original design if you are using the same tube type? Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes. The company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them. How is that any different than tube rolling or am I missing your point?
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Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes.
Why do you think the new production tubes are crappy? After all, as you noted, they are the same type.
For example, I think the new JJ 12AX7/ECC83s are generally better than Telefunkens, at least in my application. The sound is close to the same and the JJs are not microphonic like the Telefunkens.
Brett
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:scratch: What is Generic crappy tubes? JJ Tesla work fine, as do some other brands. So you know better than AVA in using what stuff works just fine? How is it, everyone knows more than the mfg, in audio, cars, wonder why they ain't making the stuff, since they know better. Funny. New Production is meaning it's crappy? Why are tubes that have been sitting around 30-50 years some magical better sound?
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I can only go by what my ears hear. I haven't done a ton of tube rolling with the 6CG7s but I have with 6SN7s (same electrical characteristics) and there is no comparison in new vs. old. I have spoken to Frank about this directly and he agrees. And, a could make a list of manufacturers that ship the equipment with new production tubes but list old production upgrades.
One manufacturer ship their $8500 pre amp with new production Electro-harmonix tubes that are horrible. Shipping with either NOS tubes or higher quality new production would increase the cost significantly.
My understand is that old production tubes used different metals than those are now used in new production. That may have something to do with it.
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How is it changing the original design if you are using the same tube type? Most equipment is shipped with generic, crappy new production tubes. The company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them. How is that any different than tube rolling or am I missing your point?
That generic, crappy new production tubes in the unit are the same tube that the manufacturers, in this case AVA do their bench test on before they ship it.
I doubt that Frank has a set of gourmet tubes there only for bench test purpose, or after the unit passed the bench test, he stuck a pair of generic, crappy JJ tubes in there, then ship the unit to you.
Substituting tubes with different made, with different manufacturing method, with different response curve is altering the original design. You would hear the difference, better or worse is all psychological.
Tube rolling is similar to putting magic caps in the unit by the customers, but not as bad, at least same type of different made tubes won't screw up the circuit, but keep doing it may wear out the tube sockets, it will keep them clean and shiny though. Tube rolling will also increase the chance of damaging the unit. Most people end up leaving the cover off with the unit on, then dropping something in there while the unit is hot. Or keep taking the cover on and off, end up stripping the chassis sheet metal screw holes or the screws. Bad idea overall.
As far as for "the company often lists alternatives, or upgrades, and encourages people to try them" part, it's a selling pitch. It gives the customers a sense of empowerment, it makes them feel like they are in control. Actually companies recommed to purchase tubes from them because their tubes might have been matched and tested in the factory, so using them will increase the probability of operational success.
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I wasn't referring to Frank in my comment about shipping with lousy tubes.
If you don't hear a difference from one tube to another then you have saved yourself a lot of money. But, to say that no one else can hear a difference is self-serving.
I do a good amount of tube rolling and have never damaged anything.
Why don't you PM Frank and ask him about his experience in running NOS 6SN7s in the hybrid DAC?
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I can hear the difference, and I believe others can too, but that's all there is, difference, not better or worse.
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I wasn't referring to Frank in my comment about shipping with lousy tubes.
If you don't hear a difference from one tube to another then you have saved yourself a lot of money. But, to say that no one else can hear a difference is self-serving.
Who was saying they couldn't tell the difference? Tubes sound differently since they have particular electrical and mechanical characteristics that are different from brand to brand and unit to unit. It's actually quite easy to hear the differences.
I merely state that there's no reason to think that 60-year-old tubes are necessarily better than those made yesterday. Particularly when a piece of equipment happens to have been designed and adjusted to use the current versions. Maybe the old tubes are better or maybe they aren't but I am pretty sure that randomly plugging them in and listening is certainly not going to prove it.
And from a practical standpoint, what are manufacturers supposed to do - design products that are optimized for parts that haven't been made for 40-50-60 years? Why don't we stamp "Use only Genuine Mullard tubes!" on the back? Maybe that would serve the "well, generic crap is OK for you guys but I actually care about music so only RCA Black-plates are good enough for me" crowd but that's not exactly a big market. And providing genuinely superior products for that crowd is pointless, since they are dilettantes, who will be off the next week asking about good-sounding Shakti stones. Just have to make the faceplate out of platinum or add some neon-illuminated crystal tube towers for them to feel good about themselves.
Brett
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I suppose that given this old vs. new conundrum, manufacturers would be best advised to... switch to solid state. :icon_twisted:
The manufacturing techniques might have changed. Why do the new violins not sound "as good" as the ones made by Stradivarius?
Oh and why the blazes can't we produce a composer that can measure up to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, or Mahler?
The arc of culture in time does not necessarily point upwards, etc.
So modernity may not be better, but it's what we got. Love the one you're with.
If you can get a good NOS tube and it makes the AVA dac/preamp/amp sound great, good for you. If you can't be bothered, don't worry, the new tubes will also sound great. Some tubes should make more of a difference than others and if you're not pushing the tube much at all then maybe they shouldn't make much of a difference at all. If you have nothing better to do than the swap tubes in and out then that's your current lot in life; if you do have something better to do then I hope that's a good thing, for some sadly it isn't.
Psychoacoustic effects are inevitable, a/b testing is ridiculous (you have to wait at least half an hour between testing sessions, realistically only Frank can be expected to do it since he can have several "identical" devices to try simultaneously), etc.
If you are consistent about demanding objective a/b testing then you might as well jump off a bridge because your parents sure did not follow that rule when your conception took place. If you are consistent with insisting that NOS tubes sound better then you might as well jump off a bridge because tomorrow will be worse than today.
Throughly enjoying Blondie's "Die Young Stay Pretty" at the moment and if we all agree that it was just a bloody coincidence that it came on as I started this then I'll be on my way.
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:duh:Why would a mfg of an $8,500 pre amp ship it with inferior tubes? Sounds like he is a not so good mfg. If as you claim, there are better tubes to be had AFTER you buy this guys ill fitted $8500 product. Why would any legit mfg supply an inferior component in a pricey device? Maybe what is in there is just fine, and you have decided it's inferior, to whatever one you decided is superior. you of course did a blind test and found this certain tube was better, which means what? Imaginations run wild in audio land. a BETTER tube.....define that! What is is? I got a new Porsche, they only put some crappy Continentals on em, which should I replace them with, that are "better". Every mfg doesn't know their own products,always putting in the wrong stuff?
Why is it called tube ROLLING, when you are actually pulling and plugging in!
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First of all we are talking about 6CG7 tubes and there is only one brand that makes them new and that is Electro-Harmonix. All the rest are NOS or used and are of limited supply, so that is the end of the discussion about why Frank or a manufacturer would use an inferior tube for this model tube. I can honestly say that the EH tube sounds great with AVA gear and the Salk Veracity HTR-3's in Franks studio. I have different gear, mainly Magnepan 1.6's and a Parasound A21 amp with hardwood floors and lots of big windows in my listening area. The EH 6CG7's are too bright for me. The original 6N1P's in my gear were less bright but less musical. Tube rolling has given me the ability to tailor the sound to my liking, not better, not worse-This is what tube rolling is about, period! I can tell you that I brought my gear to Franks to be modded and we compared some of my tubes to the EH's and they did not sound as good when placed in his system because of the different speakers, amp and environment.
Also, manufacturers pick tubes for the type of sound and price point they are looking for.
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:duh:Why would a mfg of an $8,500 pre amp ship it with inferior tubes? Sounds like he is a not so good mfg. If as you claim, there are better tubes to be had AFTER you buy this guys ill fitted $8500 product. Why would any legit mfg supply an inferior component in a pricey device? Maybe what is in there is just fine, and you have decided it's inferior, to whatever one you decided is superior. you of course did a blind test and found this certain tube was better, which means what? Imaginations run wild in audio land. a BETTER tube.....define that! What is is? I got a new Porsche, they only put some crappy Continentals on em, which should I replace them with, that are "better". Every mfg doesn't know their own products,always putting in the wrong stuff?
Why is it called tube ROLLING, when you are actually pulling and plugging in!
What exactly is your point?
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It took a couple of days, but the usual naysayer that trolls the Van Alstine circle has chimed in with nothing to offer, other than sarcasm. :duh:
Stock EH 6CG7 is fine for most....that is the beauty of tubes, you can slightly tailor the sound! :thumb:
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Stock EH 6CG7 is fine for most....that is the beauty of tubes, you can slightly tailor the sound
If I wanted to tailor the sound, I would have bought something with a tone control, I would not use different tubes as a tone control. Tube rolling, or tube plugging or whatever you call it is hogwash.
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I don't see any difference in changing tubes to change the characteristics of the sound vs buying new speakers. All the different 6CG7 tubes that I own sound different and the difference is not subtle. I started trying different tubes out of curiosity. Changing tubes in my system affects the sound in ways that tone controls cant. Some present wider sound stage, greater transparency, depth, some move the midrange forward or backward. Others have deeper, punchier bass or more detailed treble or less treble.
And I guess, all the mods the Frank has offered over the years have not made a difference. Like the 0627 op amp mods for the Ultra DAC or the change from the 6N1P tubes in the Ultra Preamp and DAC to the 6CG7's. I guess the Mosfet upgrades are rubbish too and the dramatic improvement in bass and depth of the music is placebo. Every one of these factory mods improved the sound along the way.
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:duh: Frank's changes where changes in the circuitry! changed the components for higher speed,more current ability, etc. To a DIFFERENT component, that also had changes in operation, and electrical adj. If you change a tube BRAND with the similar tube, how does that compare with Frank redesigning the circuits!? You are not making a good debate.
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:duh:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73173.msg688810#msg688810 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73173.msg688810#msg688810)
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:duh: Frank's changes where changes in the circuitry! changed the components for higher speed,more current ability, etc. To a DIFFERENT component, that also had changes in operation, and electrical adj. If you change a tube BRAND with the similar tube, how does that compare with Frank redesigning the circuits!? You are not making a good debate.
The change from a 6N1P tube did not require a change in circuits. The 2 tubes use the same circuits. The 6CG7's just happen to sound a lot better, thus the change from the factory! By the way, a change in an opamp is like a change in a tube. And the change in opamps did not require any circuit changes. Tubes have different designs and characteristics even among the same model's but I guess you don't understand that. Just look at the different 6CG7's and you can see the physical differences. The designers of the tubes designed them with a certain sound or characteristic in mind, thats why there are different brands and models. It's you who don't get it!
Your not worth my time any more.
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The change from a 6N1P tube did not require a change in circuits. The 2 tubes use the same circuits. The 6CG7's just happen to sound a lot better, thus the change from the factory!
They are two different tubes with similar electrical characteristcs that just happen to be not requiring any circuit change from the designer. And the designer feels that one works better than the other.
By the way, a change in an opamp is like a change in a tube. And the change in opamps did not require any circuit changes.
Wrong, a change in opamp itself is a circuit change. Differnt opamps have different circuits fabricated inside. They have different spec sheets. Why don't you buy a hundred 0627 opamps and start plugging away and see which one sound better.
I doubt that the designer makes better sound unit by just plugging in same parts but made by different manufacturers in different years. What's next? The opamps that were made in 1995 has a more open soundstage than the ones made in 2008?
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Larry, thanks for all the time and thought and effort you put into describing what you hear. Many of us really appreciate it. We had some fun and learned a few things back when the 6CG7's started. 8)
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If I wanted to tailor the sound, I would have bought something with a tone control, I would not use different tubes as a tone control. Tube rolling, or tube plugging or whatever you call it is hogwash.
Why do you find it necessary to rain on others' parade? If people like to roll tubes and talk about it why do you find the need to invalidate their experiences? This is a thread about tube rolling. If you think it is "hogwash" why are even commenting?
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festuss, we most certainly can indeed hear differences between different tube brands used in our equipment.
We went through plenty of brands of 12AT7 tubes for the amplifiers, and dual triodes for the preamps and DACs.
A tube is an electro-mechanical device and the way the plates are arranged and supported internally will make differences in their transfer characteristics, as will other changes appear as they age. They do have a short break in period from new out of the box to the time they provide consistent performance over their service life.
There are even more obvious differences between different tube types, even beyond the obvious differences in specified gain.
For example the 6N1P and 6CG7 are the same gain, but there is a significant difference musically between them in our circuits. There is no difference we can measure on the test bench.
Tube rolling is popular because we cannot supply old, likely used, very expensive, and likely very limited availability tubes in new production designs. There is no real point in testing these as we can't supply them. However end users who wish to pay for so called premium tubes are welcome to try them with their own dollars. Inasmuch as we design tube circuits in which the tubes are not stressed and asked to do what they do not do well, and because our multiple power supplies keep the tubes working at their optimum, we don't expect one would hear major differences from brand to brand.
However differences still will exist and the end user of our equipment is certainly welcome to play the tube rolling game if they can afford it and they feel it is worthwhile to them.
Its bad karma to poo-poo these clients of ours. It gains nothing and makes you look pretty radical. We very much appreciate your long time support, but you need to understand that people hear what they hear, and browbeating them will not change things.
I too am really annoyed with those wasting money for good sounding fuses, crazy ding-dong room treatments, cable elevators, and other obvious snake oil. There is a huge grey area out there and where someone falls therein from totally fixated with faith based magic system cures to being more attuned to various tubes than others is there own decision.
We can hear differences in tubes that we cannot measure. Hell, we can hear differences in different circuits designed to do exactly the same thing that we cannot measure. Are we crazy too? We are probably all better off trying to come up with objective means to actually define the differences than just deciding that they don't exist because we can't measure them.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Maybe at some point those undefined characteristics that make tubes sound different but measure the same will be understood and a circuit can be designed to optimize a particular tube, making any substitution undesirable. However, that's a long ways off - and way outside the Mayan calendar....
Frank, it turns out that the right $1000/ml snake oil itself can make things sound better, but only if you drink it by the liter!
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I am sure there are ways to measure those undefined characteristics that make tubes sound different , maybe it would take a $250,000 spectrum analyzer to look at the levels of every harmonic freq that amplified by every different tube.
If it sounds different, then the signal is different, then it's measureable.
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Why is it so hard to believe that there are very audible differences among tubes when they have different sized, shaped plates, shields, getters, tubes, wires and pins. Tubes are electric circuits and affect sound and they were designed to have certain properties by their makers such as harmonics among other properties. Manufacturers of the same tube type will produce tubes with different electrical parameters and therefore will sound uniquely different.
For your reading-
http://www.herronaudio.com/tastubes.html
http://www.kjlamps.com/techArticles/Harmonics1.pdf
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
http://reviews.ebay.com/The-Tubeking-apos-s-Guide-to-NOS-and-Vintage-Audio-Tubes?ugid=10000000017053944
http://www.legendarytones.com/vacuumtubes.html
http://www.vacuumtube.com/faq1.htm
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Spectrum analyzers are not that useful on real music signals and don't tell you anything about dynamic phase shifts and microphonics.
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If it's electrical signal, it can be measured. Unless you are hearing something that's not there. I see dead people......
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We most certainly can indeed hear differences between different tube brands used in our equipment.
A tube is an elector-mechanical device and the way the plates are arranged and supported internally will make differences in their transfer characteristics, as will other changes appear as they age. They do have a short break in period from new out of the box to the time they provide consistent performance over their service life.
There is no difference we can measure on the test bench.
Its bad karma to poo-poo these clients of ours. It gains nothing and makes you look pretty radical. We very much appreciate your long time support, but you need to understand that people hear what they hear, and browbeating them will not change things.
We can hear differences in tubes that we cannot measure.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
If it's electrical signal, it can be measured. Unless you are hearing something that's not there. I see dead people......
Very well put for the non tube rolling believer Frank. Electrical measurements on the bench is critical, listening to the design with the ear is the next set of measurements for any product.
A speaker will pretty sound as it measures, tube gear has a lot of leeway. This is well documented by many of the top designers of high end gear over the last 40+ years!
Of course, some of you don't want to be bothered with facts, you just run with what you believe and don't let up. Lame.
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Of course, some of you don't want to be bothered with facts, you just run with what you believe and don't let up. Lame.
I believe different tubes will make different sound, when you stick a tube with different transfer curve in the same circuit, you will hear the differences, and I believe those differences can be measured.
I don't believe the so-called "tube rolling" should be a ritual of making a piece of audio eq. to sound better, it's like saying the designer didn't do a good enough job.
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I don't believe the so-called "tube rolling" should be a ritual of making a piece of audio eq. to sound better, it's like saying the designer didn't do a good enough job.
Why do you care that others enjoy doing this? You keep saying the same thing. We know your perspective. This is a tube rolling thread. If you don't believe in this practice then why are you here?
Seriously, many of us DO feel like we can alter the sound for the better with a change in tubes. Why do you need to try to negate that?
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I don't believe the so-called "tube rolling" should be a ritual of making a piece of audio eq. to sound better, it's like saying the designer didn't do a good enough job.
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Who said any thing about making tube rolling a ritual. In my situation, I was curious. In addition, I found that I could change some of the fatiguing sound of my DAC that was bothering me on some music. If I had not tube rolled, then I probably would have sold my $2000 DAC. Along the way I found that some tubes produced deeper punchier bass along with a wider sound stage and warmer sound. This is not any slight to the designer. I happen to use a Parasound amp and different speakers than the designer. If I had all AVA gear it would be a different story.
Tube rolling is not for every one and you can drive yourself nuts with the many tubes out there.
I can tell you this. If I was able to buy Franks new amp, preamp and DAC, I would not be tube rolling.
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Sorry for raising the blood pressure for some of you, I am certainly not against "tube rolling". If that's what makes you happy, by all mean, get the best sound out of your eq.
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I'm not going to get in the middle of this but can only comment on my personal experience. Audio playback is imperfect. Even the best system is an approximation of a live event or an event in which someone performed music and had it recorded so we can play it back on our systems. There are several "flavors" and countless approaches to "the best sound", including flea powered SET amps and big horn speakers, class A, B, D, etc., big electrostats or ribbon speakers, tubed gear, SS mixed with tubes and so on.
Everyone is trying to achieve a sound they feel is good, or as good as we can afford (or are willing to spend). Many of us spend lots of time trying different gear and different combos of gear. We mess with placement, room treatments possibly, active crossovers, fancy caps, cables, etc. Those of us with tubes even delve into the mysterious and dark world of NOS tube rolling or new tube rolling for that matter.
I've done some tube rolling with positive, negative and somewhat mixed results. Calling tube rolling "EQ'ing" is arrogant in my opinion. It assumes the original tubes are "perfect" and that any non-stock tubes are imparting a flavor. The problem is, there are so many variables (speakers, room, amplifier choice, etc.) it's impossible to know if the stock tubes are going to sound best. Also, sometimes manufacturers spec their products with tubes that meet a pricepoint, or because of availability. They are not making any more NOS tubes, and some rare types are getting very expensive. Heck, some of the higher grade new tubes are very expensive (Psvane, Genelex Gold Lion, etc.). Spec'ing these in an amp or preamp could raise the cost of entry and lead to lost sales. This is not good for business, especially in today's economic climate.
I've owned AVA tubed gear (Fetvalve amps and preamp) and the stock tubes sounded best. Tried several NOS tubes from eBAY and none sounded better than the stock tubes (I think they were JJ's). Some of the aftermarket tubes I tried sounded dark, some were very noisy or microphonic. I was kind've happy to find this out because the cheapest ones sounded best. Not sure if the NOS tubes were fakes because I bought them on ebay but none sounded better than the stock ones and all were more expensive than the ones Frank supplies. Score!
In my Modwright CDP, the stock tubes were NOS. I don't know if they make a new 5687 tube so you have to use NOS. I tried several NOS tubes and found there was a MAJOR difference in sound quality. Some tubes are more dynamic, some are more laid back, some have more detail, some are dull and lifeless. Several (GE, Tung Sol, Raytheon, etc.) sounded excellent but each brand, and even some from different eras sound different. It's not night and day but there is a subtle difference. I'm really digging the Raytheon's I bought from Rob in the AC classifieds. They are slightly different (more dynamic, stronger bass) than the GE's and Tung Sol tubes I tried but I could easily live with GE or Tung Sol tubes if they are quiet and in good operating condition.
Calling tubes EQ is just not accurate. It assumes there is a "right" answer or perfect tube for every piece of gear or every system. There are too many differences in systems, music preferences, rooms, and individual preferences to assume there is a "perfect" sound and that anything that veers away from that sound is "flavored".
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Well said Jackman. In my case, I found that many NOS tubes sounded better than the stock 6CG7's. Some were worse too.
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Another problem with NOS tubes is dealing with fakes. I see lots of NOS tubes on eBay coming from China. If they can make realistic Tag and Rolex watches, how hard can it be to relabel a tube with silk screen writing? Also, I've read about guys in Germany buying big lots of old tubes that were low quality and relabeling them as high $$$ NOS tubes. Who knows, maybe the bad NOS tubes I got from the Bay years ago were fakes. They said they were matched and tested but I don't have the ability to verify!
Sorry for my wordy former post. To me, tube rolling is not like EQ'ing, it's like positioning speakers and selecting proper cables to get the best sound in my system. The results are often subtle and I'm not sure I could tell the difference in many cases in a blind test. I have not tried any of the big buck tubes or cables for that matter. It's amazing to see guys spending up to $1000 on small signal tubes. My Genelex tubes, the most expensive ones I own, were only $90, and they were guaranteed and tested by Jim McShane, a guy I trust. They sound better than the $12 stock JJ tubes that came with my preamp but the difference is subtle. The JJ's sounded very good and I could easily live with them.
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To me, tube rolling is not like EQ'ing, it's like positioning speakers and selecting proper cables to get the best sound in my system.
Anytime you alter the audio freq. response of your audio eq. is EQing, some may achieve this by replacing the tubes with the same type but different brand, or by changing out their speaker cable and patch cable, or by changing out the cap, or put a notch up or down on the bass and treble controls, or go all out and use a 12 band equalizer, or in my case, using an active crossover. They all achieve the same thing, and they all can be measured with the proper test eq.
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I've owned AVA tubed gear (Fetvalve amps and preamp) and the stock tubes sounded best. Tried several NOS tubes from eBAY and none sounded better than the stock tubes (I think they were JJ's). Some of the aftermarket tubes I tried sounded dark, some were very noisy or microphonic. I was kind've happy to find this out because the cheapest ones sounded best. Not sure if the NOS tubes were fakes because I bought them on ebay but none sounded better than the stock ones and all were more expensive than the ones Frank supplies. Score!
I agree with that statement. I owned one of the early T8 preamps & Ultra 550 amp that used the 12AT7 tube. I tried two NOS types and found that in those designs, the stock tubes were excellent and felt I wasn't getting a good return for my $$ invested in NOS tubes.
The Fet Valve Ultra+ preamp is transparent to tube changes in my system.
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Anytime you alter the audio freq. response of your audio eq. is EQing, some may achieve this by replacing the tubes with the same type but different brand, or by changing out their speaker cable and patch cable, or by changing out the cap, or put a notch up or down on the bass and treble controls, or go all out and use a 12 band equalizer, or in my case, using an active crossover. They all achieve the same thing, and they all can be measured with the proper test eq.
I am not sure why you keep referring to measuring things. It is all about what you hear.
I have been working with an acoustic engineer who has a great reputation in this space and he has warned me that a lot of what I hear in terms of changes to the acoustics of the room as a result of adding treatments cannot be measured or will not necessarily align with the revised measurements. I assume he knows what he is talking about.
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I have been working with an acoustic engineer who has a great reputation in this space and he has warned me that a lot of what I hear in terms of changes to the acoustics of the room as a result of adding treatments cannot be measured or will not necessarily align with the revised measurements.
I think you can still measure the response of the rooms that have different acoustical properties. But we are talking about altering your audio eq. by substituting different parts in it.
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I have a Rat Shack spl meter but don't have sensitive or sophisticated equipment to measure with high sensitivity in my room. Most people probably do not. Also, I'm not sure some of the subtle differences we experience with tube rolling can be measured. My system is highly adjustable, my bass is active up to 150 hz, and my passive xovers have a contour switch to adjust upper frequencies. Actively changing the settings in passive or active xover is EQ'ing but changing tubes is very subtle in many cases.
Either way, when I try different tubes, I'm more concerned about what sounds better to me than what an analytical piece of equipment coule potentially tell me. My objective is to design a system that is good sounding to me. If this is EQ'ing, so be it!
One last thing. I tested some in line high pass filters on my monitors to attenuate the sound below 150 hz. It helped integrate my subs in the system but did something strange to the sound of the monitors. Something was missing in the mids and high frequencies and it was not a positive change. It was relatively subtle but the sound quality was diminished. I now run the monitors full range and I'm working to dial in the subs. I also tried running the monitors active through a DCX2496 but the passive, external xovers, sound much more natural to me. Through the years, I even ran active eq on the monitors and always liked the sound of no EQ on the monitors and minimal EQ on the subs.
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Either way, when I try different tubes, I'm more concerned about what sounds better to me than what an analytical piece of equipment coule potentially tell me. My objective is to design a system that is good sounding to me. If this is EQ'ing, so be it!
Bingo. That's all that matters.
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If it's electrical signal, it can be measured. Unless you are hearing something that's not there. I see dead people......
So, tell us exactly what the measurements actually do show, and just how to go about measuring them, in detail. It's not enough to name a device (i.e. "spectrum analyzer) without saying how you would use it. You also need to be able to relate a particular measurement with a specific audible effect.
Your idle speculation that it "can" or "should" be measurable with available equipment and techniques is just that.
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One test we do when playing with tubes is to put a different tube brand in each channel of a preamp or amp. They we look at the square wave performance on the scope. Unless one of the tubes is really way off base, the scope traces look exactly the same.
Finally we switch the scope to the invert and add mode, which adds the output of both channels to each other, with one channel out of phase with the other one. The results are a straight line, no obvious differences even with the scope set to a high resolution. The scope output is nulled, even if we use mono digital white noise as a signal.
Its hard to think that changing tubes is changing frequency response by any audible amount. What is happening is more subtle than that. We still can hear what we can't yet measure.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Music is nothing more than harmonic freq. if not, all musical instruments would sound the same, to find the differences in sound that are produced by the same type of part but manufactured with different methods, we need to look into the harmonic structure that each part produced. I no longer have access to a high $ spectrum analyzer, nor I have the time to haul everything there (where I work) and test it for hours, but I bet it can be measured.
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Well I finally reached tube Nirvana!
I received a pair of Vinatage 1950's Sylvania Black Plate 6CG7's with the internal shield between the plates and horshoe or D getter today and they have transformed my system along with the vintage 1950's Raytheon Black Plates that I am running in my Ultra II preamp. The Sylvania's are in my Ultra II DAC.
The sound is warm, liquid and very analog sounding. Its very musical, with deep bass, and lush midrange while keeping high frequency detail. Imaging is very good and sound stage is fairly wide but I have to admit that it is not as wide as some of the other tubes that I have tried-RCA clear tops and black plates, GE black plates as well as the EH's. But the trade off is well worth it. It cost me about $300 in tube rolling but I will make some of that back in selling the tubes that I don't like.
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After just a few hours of play time the sound stage and transparency just opened up.
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Thanks Larry! 8)
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Greyhound was nice enough to send me a few sets of 6CG7 tubes to try and I thought I'd share some results. I rolled tubes in the preamp.
I have AVA FET preamp & 400R driving Revel F52's and a T+A CD Player.
Tung Sols; I did not like them, overly warm, very rolled off with soft bass response.
Mazda; were pretty good, excelled in high frequencies that I thought tonally accurate, grain free and easy to listen to while being extended. This tube gave me the impression of being very fast, meaning you could hear between strikes of fast drums and between notes of guitars very well. Seemed to me although not lacking in bass the bass line was sometimes buried.
RCA Black Plates; These were very nice, extended highs, full bass that remained defined a natural warm midrange with good presence.
Sylvania Gray Plates; A hard choice of favorite between these and the RCA-BP but in the end I preferred the Sylvania. The Sylvania is a very dynamic sounding tube, good presence in the midrange, the bass hits good yet very controlled. The high end is decent but not as foward as the RCA.
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I picked up a couple of 9-pin to 8-pin adapter sockets so we could play with 6SN7 tubes in our tube and hybrid preamps and DACs. They were direct from China and only cost about $15 each. You have to run with the covers off of course as 6SN7 tubes are much taller, even without the added height of the adapter sockets.
However there is one catch. The adapters are wired assuming that pin 9 is wired as useful for some 9-pin tubes as a heater supply tap. Our audio boards do not use the connection to pin 9 so as is, no heater supply for 6SN7 tubes with the adapter right out of the box.
There is a pretty easy to do work around if you are handy with a solder pencil. All you need is a short jumper wire from pin 9 to pin 5 of the tube sockets. This can be done on the top side of the mother board wrapped neatly around the base of the tube socket and tucked in so hardly visible.
Then you can try new or old 6SN7 tubes all you want. We think new production EH6SN7 tubes work pretty well, and an old set of used GE6SN7 tubes even are better yet.
If you are not up to the necessary tube socket wiring work, return your AVA preamp to us and we will do it free of charge for you, except for shipping cost.
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Unless the 6N7 was quite a bit better than 6CG7 I don't think I'd like the top off look :)
This is actually the first tube rolling I've done and not sure I would have tried it if the tubes weren't lended to me. It was a good experience though.
Any idea what drives the cost of tubes? Rarity, performance etc.? I shouldn't keep saying anything but the Sylvania were really good and look to be one of the cheapest options.
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You don't need to run it with the top off if you modify the cover:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61704)
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Hi Greyhound fan and others,
Which do you prefer sonically the RCA clear tops or RCA black/greay plate? What are there sonic traits?
Cheers
Steve.
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I ordered a pair of RCA clear tops and a pair of Tung-Sols which should be here in the next week or so. Both will be used in a T8+ preamp over the next few weeks. I'll post my impressions once the tubes have broken in and I've had a chance to listen to them a bit.
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I hope the Tung Sol and RCA aren't going in the same preamp at the same time, I found them to be quite different from one another. In my gear I personally did not like the Tung Sol, I can't think of a single thing I liked about them.
I've only heard the RCA Black and I found them to be a full sound with extended highs and ample bass, good detail overall.
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heh. No. They won't be in the T8 at the same time.
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This thread is titled 6CG7 tube reviews.....nothing about 12AT7 clear tops. Back on topic:
The 6CG7 black plate US MADE Raytheon is a very hard tube to find, most Raytheons are the Japanese version. I like the Ray B.P. put them back in the Ultra preamp this week and the one thing they do in my system is move the sound plane to the front of the speakers, not quite as extended on the top end, but a detailed clear sound with zero fatigue. I like the depth of the clear tops, but the clarity of the Raytheons.
Hi all,
What do the japanese version of the Raytheons 6cg7 sound like?, the ones you like the most are they the american version?.
Cheers
Steve.
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Hi all,
This is my first post on this forum and it is a call for help. I just got a pair of RCA 6CG7s to replace the 6N1Ps in my T8 and I want to scream! The 6CG7s simply will not go in to the tube sockets. The pins line up with the socket holes, they match perfectly with the pins on the 6N1Ps. I keep pushing, straight down and side to side. It's almost as if the individual pins are too fat for the individual sockets. I'm afraid of breaking the circuit board as I watch it bending. I'm not deep in to this hobby but I've replaced tubes before and I never saw anything like this. Is there some sort of trick to this thing?
Thanks
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Hi all,
This is my first post on this forum and it is a call for help. I just got a pair of RCA 6CG7s to replace the 6N1Ps in my T8 and I want to scream! The 6CG7s simply will not go in to the tube sockets. The pins line up with the socket holes, they match perfectly with the pins on the 6N1Ps. I keep pushing, straight down and side to side. It's almost as if the individual pins are too fat for the individual sockets. I'm afraid of breaking the circuit board as I watch it bending. I'm not deep in to this hobby but I've replaced tubes before and I never saw anything like this. Is there some sort of trick to this thing?
Thanks
Welcome. I have a T8 and at one time rolled some RCA cleartops and they fit fine. I would suspect the tubes. Everything has a tolerance and if the +/- of the diameters, the Od of the pins and the Id of the socket, was exceeded, could be that is the issue. I'd check the pin diameters with some calipers. Good luck.
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The tube sockets we generally use do have a very tight fit on purpose to make sure there are great long term contacts with the tube pins.
Usually we simply just wiggle the tube slightly from side to side while pushing it down into place. This is hardest to do here when the sockets are first used. With each replacement, it will get easier. If we have a particularly difficult fit, we use a shot of Caig Labs Deoxit D5 spray into the socket to lubricate it a bit.
Frank
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. Looks like I'll try the deoxit route. And THANK YOU Frank for great products!
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You may also want to get some socket savers which will help straighten out the pins.
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I use the tube-pulling task as an opportunity to meditate.
Patience will be required.
A steady hand will be required.
Heat some water, fill the teapot and put some leaves in there to brew.
Breathe deep. Now exhale. Now go to the tube unit. Now gently pull the tube, and slowly, steadily increase the pulling strength and oscillation. The oscillation should max out at about a degree or so.
After some time, you'll feel the tube start to make progress. Continue to pull with the same strength and oscillation until the tube comes out.
Now pour the tea and smile at your tube.
Now go back to the tube unit and start to work on the next tube...
btw where is the audiophile tube-pulling device that consists of two platforms that separate themselves very slowly thus ensuring that the tensile strain on all pins does not exceed 0.001% THD and costs $3,000? Frank, the AVA tube-puller could be the big break you've been waiting for!
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THANKS TO ALL for the helpful suggestions. Success at last! Time to sit back and listen. THANKS AGAIN!