AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: rustydoglim on 28 Mar 2018, 06:19 pm
-
The Reference Evolution name will be formally called "Evolution One" and price will be set at $3995 MSRP.
When I first evaluated the prototype more than a month ago, it was still unfinished, so that lead to an early assessment that it was really good, and in some way better than Ref 20. But the production version is way beyond our expectation.
The final price reflects the production cost. If we have to price how good it sound compared to others, we would have to price it many times higher.
Jye, our senior product manager and I evaluated the final pre-production unit on Monday, March 26 and came away in shock. He will post his comment here.
-
This is very cool. Looking forward to how this might be implemented in stereo or integrated amp form.
Cheers,
Scott
-
Is it a monoblock or stereo amp? Thanks.
-
I think it's exciting to see how far Class D has come... and that there are bright minds behind companies like Nuprime that keep pushing the boundaries even further. I bet the Evolution One is one very fine amp. Kudos to Nuprime for having the imagination, smarts and guts to design their own SOTA proprietary technology without having to rely on some other company to do the heavy lifting with generic off the shelf parts. :D
-
Yes, the Reference Evolution which shall be now known as the Evolution One. Not that Jason and I like to change product names when it's so close to release. The Evo 1 greatly surpasses the prior Reference range that within the initial 5 minutes of listening, we thought that we have moved a generation forward.
With many things to be accomplished within that day, we couldn't spend all the time listening through all different types of music for me to describe in detail what it sounds like. If I had to use a sweeping statement (which I did to relate the sound to the engineers), it sounds like a very well executed pure Class A power amplifier! It is really hard to believe that the sound is not coming out from a pair of humongous, heat generating monsters.
No caveats here. The Evo 1 has that effortlessness, deft, detail, soundstaging and imaging which all great amplifiers possesses. The projection of sound extends in all directions and remains solid right to the edge of the room boundaries. The sound really comes at you, in an inviting manner rather than overwhelming.
The Evo 1 is likely the first Class D power amplifier to have a 1 mega ohm input impedance, and the only one for any Class at this price range. This allows the pre-amp to easily convey the nuances buried in the recordings to the Evo 1. The circuit design is fully balanced and is laid out symmetrically. The power supply delivers the power to the circuitry via high purity copper strips. I couldn't get a good enough picture to justify the expense and effort taken in coming up with the Evo 1 and have left that job for the professional photographers.
For the Ref 20 owners out there: If you got the message to skip the Ref Evo, you may have to rethink about the Evo 1.
-
When does evo 1 start production? I wanted to buy ref 20 but now I have to wait for evo 1. Thanks.
-
Shipping round the last week of April. Over the years, we have been pretty good at advancing the state of the art, and this seems to be one of the last hurdles.
Few people have ever heard amps with 1M Ohm impedance because there are so few out there. I think only Cello made that and later the designer left to start Viola. No need to get into the price of those amps :).
-
could you tell me what the power rating is on the evolution one.
-
Should be interesting when they compare Evo sound to 30-80K space heater amps!
Jye,
BTW - I was just wondering something. At first I kind-a skimmed over your previous message because to be honest, I’m not really in the market for any new amps at this time. The ones I have at the moment together with the rest of my system are sounding so good that I no longer feel the urge to change anything, at least not for a good long while anyway. But something you wrote stuck in my head, so I went back and read your last posting a second time. You stated:
“The power supply delivers the power to the circuitry via high purity copper strips.”
Curious. Are those based on the laminated copper cables that Bob from TDSS uses in his NuForce/NuPrime Upgrades? You can read about them on his TDSS website.
The reason I’m asking is because a while back I had Bob upgrade my Ref-9s, and I know he used them as part of the upgrade then because of reading about them on the above web page (and because I opened the amps up to take a little peek inside after I got them back ☺ ) You can read my review on AC here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148121.0
So it sounds to me like you guys must have been collaborating on the new Evo too? It only makes sense because you guys have been working together for a long time now, and if so, then COOL!!! That means then that the Evo is certain to be something truly special. So far my TDSS upgraded Ref-9s are the best amps I have ever heard (let alone owned), so I can’t imagine what the Evo is going to sound like if Bob’s upgrades are being used in it as well.
In fact, a while back I remember reading on the TDSS website that you guys were working together to come out with a new version of the Ref-20s? For whatever reason that info is gone now though, so is that project still in the works too?
Either way, if NuPrime is working with Bob Smith/TDSS on developing their new amps, then all I can say is that I may just have to reconsider and make it a point to check out the new Evo (and maybe the new Ref-20s?) after all. What Bob did to transform my Ref-9s was truly magic, so if he’s involved and there is better to be had, I’m thinking I’ll have to hear it for myself. Otherwise, I simply can’t imagine ANY amp sounding much better than my upgraded Ref-9s do, regardless of the price.
Speaking of which, will you be offering your 30-day trial period on the Evo as well? If so, then I’m really in trouble because I don’t think I can resist trying them out, and the problem is my wife already thinks I’m nuts. So right now I’m not sure yet how I would pull it off and get them into the house without her noticing!!!
-
Rx8man,
I believe there was an intention to work with Bob for the new Reference series in the past. However, that didn't happen so the engineering team took the task upon themselves and worked on the Evo 1. I've not peeked into any of Bob's work so I cannot comment how similar the power supply might be, but whatever is in the Evo 1 is independent work. I guess that when the designers get the budget to produce something excellent, certain high-end concepts and principles may converge. And the Evo 1 contains many of these concepts and principles.
Trial periods are provided by the distributors/dealers so I am unable to answer on their behalf. The factory is not doing direct sales for any of the current series.
-
Is it mono or stereo power amp?
Because if 3995 USD- it's price per mono unit, so I need to multiply it at least on 2. Or even - on 4 in my good case.
-
Rx8man,
I believe there was an intention to work with Bob for the new Reference series in the past. However, that didn't happen so the engineering team took the task upon themselves and worked on the Evo 1. I've not peeked into any of Bob's work so I cannot comment how similar the power supply might be, but whatever is in the Evo 1 is independent work. I guess that when the designers get the budget to produce something excellent, certain high-end concepts and principles may converge. And the Evo 1 contains many of these concepts and principles.
Trial periods are provided by the distributors/dealers so I am unable to answer on their behalf. The factory is not doing direct sales for any of the current series.
Thanks for filling me in Jye.
It's sort of sad to hear that the upgraded Ref-20 is off the table and that NuPrime isn't working with Bob/TDSS on the Evo.
I heard the stock Ref-20s once at a friend's house and they were already great sounding amps in their own right, so I can only imagine how good they would be after having been upgraded.
Oh well, I guess at least that project allowed NuPrime management to hear for themselves just how effective Bob's upgrade treatments really are, and that they decided to use some of the same stuff in the new Evo. My upgraded Ref-9s are proof enough to me that they work, so if you are suggesting that the Evo will be even better, then I just have to hear those puppies!
Thanks too for letting me know about the trial period issue. Before too long I'll be checking with the one NuPrime dealer guy I know to see if a home audition will be an option for me. I just have to figure out how I'm gonna get it (or them, if they are mono's) into the house and system without the wife noticing. I can usually find a way to covertly come up with the finances, but she's always cleaning and dusting stuff in my listening room so you can just about be guaranteed she'll know if I go changing anything. She busted my chops the last time when I bought my preamp and I tried sneaking it in, so CRAP!
Well anyway, good luck and maybe I'll just have to wait for a while before I give it a try, so in the mean time I'm looking forward to hearing the reports from others here on AC. ESPECIALLY from any guys that have already heard (or own) a pair of TDSS upgraded NuForce or NuPrime amps. THAT will be really interesting!
-
They are, indeed, MONO amps.
The previous price had a nice 'double price' ladder, but current scheme has a significant jump:
- ST-10 -> $1500 total
- ST-10M (next suggested step in sound upgrade) -> $3000 total (2 required)
- Evo1 (ultimate sound upgrade according to Jason) -> $8000 total (2 required).
So, if you are planning to move from the ST line to the new Evo, you'll have to put out $8000. Previous pricing scheme had the combo at $6000 which was a nice double-up from the 2xST-10M.
Either way, they were out my price range, so I can only drool imagining how they will sound. With some luck, our local distributor will have a couple some day to be able to hear them, but he has mostly moved to Simaudio MOON products now, and there are very few NuPrime units, so I'm not holding my breath for an in-person audition.
Good luck with the new product! Best regards,
Rafa.
-
I had Bob Smith mod my Ref 20's about a year ago and can verify that his work took them up another level in sound detail, liquidity, and finesse and I think also added stability/reliability to the power supply. So my modded Ref 20's will be an interesting comparison to the Evo. Mine are dead quiet - any concerns about noise coming in with the ultra high input impedance planned for the EVO?
-
I agree that Bob's modded Ref 20 would be an interesting comparison the the Evo One. We appreciate and value all feedback to bring further improvements to our products!
The ultra high input impedance would be more sensitive to the incoming signal as well, so relatively, noise level actually goes down.
-
"The ultra high input impedance would be more sensitive to the incoming signal as well, so relatively, noise level actually goes down."
Plesase read this link, it applies to this scenario: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/84831/why-are-high-impedance-circuits-more-sensitive-to-noise
-
I have been posting on this forum for like 13 years now. You guys should know by now that when I said that something is a breakthrough (I am an engineer turned management), I don't mean modification.
I don't blame the response though, because few people ever, probably none of you ever heard a really good amp with 1M Ohm input impedance design. When my chief engineer told me before I heard it, it never register anything in my mind. Ok, so what? It is not like xxxx power, xxx switching freq, low noise, low THD etc that I have been used to hearing. The switching freq of Evo One, by the way, has been raised to >700kHz. These are engineering breakthroughs that have never been done on Class-D design before. It is not simply changing input impedance to 1M Ohm, the amp has to sound incredibly good when you do that. And you can't just raise the switching freq without having the rest of the circuit keeping up. If this is easy, someone would have done it years ago.
-
Does the Evolution ONE use GaN output devices to attain 700khz switching speeds?
-
Jason, I have appreciated your clear tables ranking all your amp products over the years on important sound parameters and will be interested to see when you add the Evolution to these. Keep up the good work.
Question: when you are evaluating products what source and speakers do you tend to use the most?
-
Everyone's kids are beautiful in their own eyes. I will believe the testimony over the Evo one when an outsider like Stereophile Magazine or the Absolute Sound weighs in and compares it to what's out there. Forgive me for being skeptical, I have kids too.
-
Spenav, you obviously are not a NuPrime customer or have been following my posts.
Many of these guys have seen my track record and post for 13 years!
So far I have been pretty spot on with my posts.
In the history of class D amp, I would say that NuForce Ref 9 back in 2005 was a revolutionary product, the very first time a class-D amp was awarded Product Of The Year. Many amps have surpassed the Ref 9, including NuPrime ST-10, and subsequent versions of Ref 9.
So, I will only say that this is the 2nd time in my history that I consider Evo One a revolutionary product. Ref 18, ST-10 got product of the year awards, in fact by several magazines. And I don't consider them revolutionary, they are incredibly good. Evo One is the new product that I can confidently say that it takes us to the next level.
-
Everyone's kids are beautiful in their own eyes. I will believe the testimony over the Evo one when an outsider like Stereophile Magazine or the Absolute Sound weighs in and compares it to what's out there. Forgive me for being skeptical, I have kids too.
Did it ever occur to you that these magazines rarely if ever write anything but positive reviews, and that they rarely if ever review a product unless the manufacturer is “paying them off” in the form of advertising revenue?
-
They are, indeed, MONO amps.
The previous price had a nice 'double price' ladder, but current scheme has a significant jump:
- ST-10 -> $1500 total
- ST-10M (next suggested step in sound upgrade) -> $3000 total (2 required)
- Evo1 (ultimate sound upgrade according to Jason) -> $8000 total (2 required).
Just a quick correction so no one is confused:
- ST-10 -> List Price $1595 total
- ST-10M (next suggested step in sound upgrade) -> List Price $3190 total (2 required)
These are US prices in USD.
-
what are the specifications of the Evo 1?
Power to 8 and 4 ohms
-
Rusty, I don't question your honesty. For the record I am a proud owner of an ST-10 and I have nothing but good things to say about it. I am sure you believe everything you said about the Evo One and all of it might even be true. As a consumer however I don't think I should buy a product based solely on what the manufacturer is telling about it. When I buy a product on Amazon, I usually based my decision on the 3-star reviews. I want to know what the critics are saying also. Some of their remarks might be unreasonable but others are warranted. That's just me. I wholeheartedly hope that you are right but as an educated individual, I need to also hear it from someone who is not vested in the company. I am glad to hear that you are still with Nuprime because I believe I bought my ST-10 from you some two years ago and you were very helpful and knowledgeable. Thanks again.
-
Firstly, to answer the question on the noise with a high impedance input. Yes, high impedance input will definitely be more susceptible to noise. If poorly designed, all the finer details in the signal that is gained from the high impedance circuitry will be marred with noise. The designer understood this very well and had to make sure that noise rejection and filtering are sufficiently improved to justify the gains. Hence the circuitry of this 1M Ohm input stage is entirely new, and not just increasing the input impedance of our prior input stage designs.
We wanted to share some early information on the Evo One before it hit the shelves to keep the community updated on its development. Like Jason mentioned, the engineers went many steps ahead of us on this project. What was initially a Ref 20E got improved to a Reference Evo and then to a whole new Evo One. Our excitement comes not only because we have a new product, but something new which we are all very proud of. We could only relate this excitement by providing as much as we can from what we gather from the engineers and listening comparisons we have done in house.
There's still a bit of work to do before Evo One gets to the market, and we are working very hard to keep the end April release date. Hopefully by then, most questions here can be answered and those who get to hear them could share their listening impressions.
-
Curious: whats the entire stack (from source to the speakers) that are being used to test the evolution one amp?
-
Jason, I have appreciated your clear tables ranking all your amp products over the years on important sound parameters and will be interested to see when you add the Evolution to these. Keep up the good work.
Question: when you are evaluating products what source and speakers do you tend to use the most?
I think the lab use an old Yamaha monitor speaker, very revealing. I can't remember the model since this is not something I do.
I am not the person who approve the sound, by the time I get to evaluate it, the product is close to production.
-
For R&D, listening test is the last step and simply to validate the design, because after so many years of design experience, the engineers can correlate theory and simulation with real world results. So after extensive circuit simulation on computer, the design is then implemented. And then measurement tests result flaws in design, implementation (layout routing etc) or choice of parts. Engineers perform listening test just to confirm what the measurement tests already reviewed. Perhaps the listening tests can provide further insides.
But what we do is very scientific and engineering focus. There is no trial and error :nono:
Therefore the choice of audio equipment is important only that they are revealing and consistent. We can't do evaluation test on many speakers because that would be trial and error. We use the old P20, an experimental preamp, DAC-10H as the preamps. Source is now CDT-8 Pro (for listening tests, most of the time we don't need high-res beyond CD since we are looking for relative improvement).
We got excited about Evo 1 because even though theory, simulation and measurement tests are all good, nothing compare to the WOW factor. We started with ST-10, then ST-10M, then Ref 20, and then Evo One, and got the wow, holy shit kind of reaction.
Thanks to many feedback from customers here about our products, so we can predict how Evo One will sound in the "real world".
-
Rusty, I don't question your honesty. For the record I am a proud owner of an ST-10 and I have nothing but good things to say about it. I am sure you believe everything you said about the Evo One and all of it might even be true. As a consumer however I don't think I should buy a product based solely on what the manufacturer is telling about it. When I buy a product on Amazon, I usually based my decision on the 3-star reviews. I want to know what the critics are saying also. Some of their remarks might be unreasonable but others are warranted. That's just me. I wholeheartedly hope that you are right but as an educated individual, I need to also hear it from someone who is not vested in the company. I am glad to hear that you are still with Nuprime because I believe I bought my ST-10 from you some two years ago and you were very helpful and knowledgeable. Thanks again.
Thanks for your compliment. Sure I am still with NuPrime, I thought everyone knew that I am the CEO :lol:
With regard to comment about new products, I have to be as objective as possible with my comment relative to existing products. Otherwise nobody is going to believe what I say if I keep singing praises for our products. Furthermore, I can't control what customers will say, so if I am too positive about a product and then people started to say "well, it is nice but not living up to the hype from Jason", I will lose credibility! Likewise, Jye has to be accurate with his assessment because everyone is reading what we say and we leave a trail as public record.
Most of time when people ask me if they should upgrade to a new product, I usually tell them "don't bother, you are getting incremental improvement, just wait".
-
Most of time when people ask me if they should upgrade to a new product, I usually tell them "don't bother, you are getting incremental improvement, just wait".
8) :thumb:
-
Did it ever occur to you that these magazines rarely if ever write anything but positive reviews, and that they rarely if ever review a product unless the manufacturer is “paying them off” in the form of advertising revenue?
Hi Wind
It sure sounds like that doesn't it? To their defense however, most reviewers don't write reviews about equipment that they think is not worth the time and ink they would need to spend on it. The ST-10 had a very nice review in the Absolute Sound and it was not lips service either. I am really looking forward to read about the Evo One. These guys listen to more amps than I will ever do so I trust them to at least stir me to the right direction so that I can take the time to listen for myself. There are quite a few good amps out there today, if Nuprime can carve a spot at the top I am all ears because they usually price their equipment reasonably. Take care.
-
I am excited about this amp because for a non audiophile, Jason and his crew will surely create an IDA-16/IDA-8 successor in a few years with the same tech. e.g. what they did with the STA-6/IDA-6 is quite amazing, at the price point.
Patiently watching till then :)
-
Wonder how TAD feels about this naming convention. It just so happens that they have a floor standing speaker named Reference One ($78,000) and another one called Evolution One ($29,000).
-
I don't think you can own words. If I name my new revolutionary door invention: The Door, does that mean no one can ever market a product as a door hence forward? And how about numbers, if I call my new component DAC-5, can no one ever use the number 5 in their naming?
The problem is with searches and comparisons, but for the sake of intellectual property, I don't think there is an issue.
-
Tell that to Bose. They went after Thiel over a decimal point!
-
Tell that to Bose. They went after Thiel over a decimal point!
Yes - they have sued a ton of people - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose_Corporation
I actually met a guy who owned a stereo store in Philly many moons ago and was using direct reflecting technology before Bose. He actually used good drivers in real world sized enclosures. Bose bullied him too.
-
Porsche changed from 901 to 911....due to Peugot's number system.
Trade dress is not quite the same as wording
-
I hope for the sake of civility no one gets sued. I just thought I should point that out since nobody had. Food for thought.
-
I hope for the sake of civility no one gets sued. I just thought I should point that out since nobody had. Food for thought.
+1 on that - I guess I'll have to give up those plans for calling my speaker I was thinking of marketing the Spenav 2.2 (darn) :green:
-
Please don't give up. I would be honored if you call your speakers SPENAV 2.2. As long as they sound good :)
-
Usually companies trade mark the brand and sub brand. We poor audiophiles companies are lucky to be still alive, I doubt anyone has the money to go sue someone else for model name, lol.
-
And the fact that the two categories (speaker and amplifier) are so different might make it even more unlikely I wonder how the Evolution One monos would sound paired with the Evolution One monitor system? I can only imagine.