AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Audiophile Mobile Audio => Topic started by: medium jim on 21 Apr 2012, 03:49 pm
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About 5 years ago, I bought a 2002 Cadillac Seville SLS that was too good of a deal to pass on. One issue though, it had a crappy stereo (non-OEM) and I budgeted 2K for a reinstall of system. I went to my trusted local Car Stereo guy and he recommended the then new line of Premier by Pioneer and mate it with a JL Audio Sub and Amp.
I got the Premier FH-P800BT Double Din Receiver, a pair of Premier TS-P720PRS Component front speakers, Premier TS-A633P rear fills, a JL Audio 10" 10WXV-2-4 Sub and a JL Audio JX 1000/1D amp. This is all off of the shelf stuff, but wholly crap, it sure sounded amazingly good. The soundstage was nearly as good as my home system and with as much clarity and detail.
The soundfloor is very low as the Cadillac is very quiet inside.
One day a good friend needed a ride who happens to be a true audiophile with money and he was totally blown away with the system and must have asked me a dozen questions about it.
The trickle down is that Pioneer, who is Premier, offers basically the same quality in their standard line now.
The gist is, in the last 5 or so years, the quality of speakers, amps and features has ramped up to the point where for around $1000 you can vastly upgrade any factory system to a true smile making on the road experience.
Jim
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I agree. 5 years ago, I had a 1 hour commute each way, so I decided to spend some money on upgrading the sound system in my truck. The biggest improvement came from swapping the front speakers with some excellent Focal 6 1/2" woofers w/ seperate tweeter. Wow! Been loving it for the last 5 years. I did not stop with the front speakers. I added a single 10" JL Audio sub and amp and an amp to power the Focal's. Last, I added sound deadening to the entire truck which made a huge difference. All this with the stock head unit. For years, this system sounded better than my home system. :thumb:
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Jeff:
You brought up a subject that is very important, insulation and dampening which is relatively inexpensive and is a serious upgrade in most vehicles. It improves the spl, noise floor, among other things.
Jim
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Just buy a new Porsche 911 with Burmester sound system...
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Just buy a new Porsche 911 with Burmester sound system...
I would rather spend 200k on a new home system. This is coming from somebody
That has neither.
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the cool thing iscar audio has gotten to the point where a person can get great sound with the right purchases. here isa system that would prove my point.
head unit http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Stage4/CD-Players/DEX-P99RS
amp http://www.jlaudio.com/hd900-5-car-audio-hd-amplifiers-98223
front speakers (passive xovers optional) http://www.focal-america.com/category/speakers/
subs: (2) http://www.focal-america.com/category/speakers/
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i am very interested in mobile tube power amplifiers. www.milbert.com is affiliated with Mr David Berning who designs the Milbert Amplifier's.
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i am very interested in mobile tube power amplifiers. www.milbert.com is affiliated with Mr David Berning who designs the Milbert Amplifier's.
Back in the day, tube amps were the norm in car systems...talking 1950's, with the tube of choice the 6V6 and 6SN7. I too am interested in the modern take on tube amps for cars. It might be an interesting idea for a thread if anyone is interested in starting one.
Jim
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i am very interested in mobile tube power amplifiers. www.milbert.com is affiliated with Mr David Berning who designs the Milbert Amplifier's.
The Milbert would be the only amp I would ever use in a serious autophile system, no other amp would be worth buying.
The main problem with autophile systems, it is very hard to concentrate on the road and your sound at the same time. The standard installed stereo is good enough for me. Home systems are far superior.
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The Milbert would be the only amp I would ever use in a serious autophile system, no other amp would be worth buying.
The main problem with autophile systems, it is very hard to concentrate on the road and your sound at the same time. The standard installed stereo is good enough for me. Home systems are far superior.
Tom:
I also like Butler who has been around for a few years and has an impressive resume of customers:
http://www.butleraudio.com/car.php
While I'm a total bottlehead, I really do like my Premier by Pioneer Head Unit with the Premier speakers as they work very well together. If I get another vehicle to work with, I would go with a McIntosh head, Butler amp and do some research on the current high-end speakers available.
I would also stay with JL Audio for the sub....
Jim
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Most of what I listen to in the car is news/traffic.
But I'm confused...
How do you develop a soundstage/image from the driver's seat? I can see making a serious investment in a 5th wheel or a semi-serious investment in a RV. But with road noise, wind noise, engine noise, hard surfaces, too small of a space, too much hard surface, and improper listening location I don't get putting the audiophile tag on any car system.
Why not just use earbuds with a souped up i-Pod?
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Why not just use earbuds with a souped up i-Pod?
Because you won't hear the siren until there's a road block for you or the train whistle until ...
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JLM I think you ask valid questions about the pursuit of great sound in a car.
There are issues to deal with for sure, and the ambient noise, reflective surfaces, challenges for speaker location are all good questions.
There are +'s too though, including transfer function allowing for much better bass easier.
I don't go after perfect sound in a car, I go after sound that makes me happy. I may listen with the windows down too, so soundstaging and other critical listening perspectives just don't play a role for me.
In terms of soundstaging, most folks go after equal path length for the front stage, so many use 2 way installs in the kick panels (yes, down by your feet) to get a similar physical path length. Others leverage digital manipulation for this.
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The best sound I have achieved was by using separate tweeter drivers, raised to dash level, and rear speakers to create a large soundfield. Right now I have a crappy system in my little truck and I'm all ears for the great ideas here.
I'm tempted to say that auto systems are more about good music than the fussy audiophile in his easy chair, twiddling his box full of dacs, where it's as much a gear fetish as anything. But then, I have to remember the subwoofer wars booming down the street. So, I guess not. :lol:
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Hi Fred:
I will have to say your formula for creating a large soundstage is interesting. The biggest improvement in mobile stereo has been in the speaker technology. True audiophile component speakers with x/o's can be had in the $300 and up range. They are designed to be installed in the factory cutouts in most instances.
I agree that unless you are the passenger, critical listening isn't practical, but this doesn't negate the enjoyment derived from a mobile system that is audiophile quality.
There is a good overview/primer sticky thread that should get you on the road. Please start any thread that you feel would be helpful or to answer any questions you may have.
Thanks,
Jim
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How do you develop a soundstage/image from the driver's seat?
<snip>
But with road noise, wind noise, engine noise, hard surfaces, too small of a space, too much hard surface, and improper listening location I don't get putting the audiophile tag on any car system.
It's doable but there are compromises...that and what you end up with falls short of your home system even spending tons of cash.
The first hurdle is road/wind noise. If you own a tiny econo-box car, it gets extremely hard to overcome the noise. When you get up into a mid-sized or larger car, they tend to be much quieter from the factory. Even with these cars you need to (essentially) rip out the interior and coat the doors, floor board, firewall, roof, back seat divider and trunk with some sort of damping material. This, though expensive, will drop the noise floor of your car dramatically when driving.
On the soundstage, when you do one of these systems, you get just an OK soundstage (at least in my car). I (personally) get about two to three feet of depth when I'm driving maybe four or five at a stoplight (where you can pay attention). Placement with all of those hard interior surfaces can be a little sketchy at times but you do get a decent center focus. Placement picks up when sitting still but when you are driving your mental focus on that leaves (or should). At that point it just becomes really fine sounding music. One thing I've done to help with all of the reflective surfaces is install sticky backed felt around the tweeters to try and eliminate the immense amount of baffle diffraction. That really helps out a lot.
That said, in my case I'm more interested in realistic sounding instruments, vocals and dynamics. Sure, the dynamics can be a bit dampened because of a higher noise floor but they are still there in a good 12v system. The realism is a huge step up over a factory sound system not to mention you get deep solid bass from a proper sub. You aren't relying on some 4x6 door mounted speaker to reproduce a stand up bass, kettle or kick drum.
And sure, cranking it isn't supposed to be part of this forum but oh dear Lord, when you lean on a good 12v system there is no bigger thrill you can get (in music).
It's a lot of work and you can dump as much cash into it as you want but the end result can be extremely satisfying for the audiophile, sometimes more so than a home system.
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Scott:
Good post, however, I have no problem with excessive spl's and often turn my system up to enjoy the ride. My aversion is to excessive bass that doesn't represent an audiophile experience.
Jim
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Does anyone know of any audiophile quality headunits still available, the clarion and alpine units have gone out of production, I find it easy to find speakers and amps ( focal, dynaudio, JLaudio amps ) but no headunits....
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McIntosh, Premier by Pioneer are a couple of nice head units that come to mind....
Jim
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Along that same vein. I'd like to be able to bypass my HU altogether. Go from USB and iPod > processor > amp. And maintain steering wheel control. ?????????
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Quote Bunky:
"i am very interested in mobile tube power amplifiers. www.milbert.com is affiliated with Mr David Berning who designs the Milbert Amplifier's."
Tube filaments aren't all that fond of vibration. I think I'm right in saying that in the days when cars used tube radios, there were tubes specifically made for the task.
Cars wouldn't seem to be the place for NOS tubes :lol: Might be worth asking Milbert about their approach to tube life.
jules
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Along that same vein. I'd like to be able to bypass my HU altogether. Go from USB and iPod > processor > amp. And maintain steering wheel control. ?????????
Sorry, but that will not provide anything near a true audiophile system IMHO. Nothing against iphones or ipods, but they just don't have quality playback yet. Whereas, an iphone or ipod that goes through a head unit has the luxury of a better DAC.
Jim
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Because you won't hear the siren until there's a road block for you or the train whistle until ...
So turn the darn things down (any system can get too loud to hear outside the car).
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Even if one could get "audiophile" quality sound, how would one appreciate it in an environment with such a miserable signal to noise ratio?
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Tube filaments aren't all that fond of vibration. I think I'm right in saying that in the days when cars used tube radios, there were tubes specifically made for the task.
Cars wouldn't seem to be the place for NOS tubes :lol: Might be worth asking Milbert about their approach to tube life.
jules
Jules,
I'm actually using NOS 6SL7s in my cab amp (Butler TDB 475). I've been running mine for almost two years without incident. Even in the vintage cars I've owned that had tubed radios, I never had one fail due to bumps, potholes or other rough ride issues.
....just my $.02
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Jules,
I'm actually using NOS 6SL7s in my cab amp (Butler TDB 475). I've been running mine for almost two years without incident. Even in the vintage cars I've owned that had tubed radios, I never had one fail due to bumps, potholes or other rough ride issues.
....just my $.02
Would the tubes not break in below zero cold do you think?
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Even if one could get "audiophile" quality sound, how would one appreciate it in an environment with such a miserable signal to noise ratio?
You won't understand until you spend time in a vehicle that has a good system.
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Would the tubes not break in below zero cold do you think?
Good question. I live in St Louis and over the past couple of winters we've reached below zero a couple of times. It took a while for them to warm up and sound good but they didn't break.
If you think about it, back in WWII the bombers flew at high altitude with sub-zero temps and they all used tubes for communications.
There shouldn't be any worries about cold weather and tubes.
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The Russians used tubes in their aircraft for quite a while.
Noise, vibration, harshness didn't seem to bother them too much, and neither did the temperatures. It's gets pretty cold there.
It is nice having a large library and a good sounding system in your car.
I give it my highest recommendation.
Bob
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You won't understand until you spend time in a vehicle that has a good system.
:thumb:
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You won't understand until you spend time in a vehicle that has a good system.
Well, I have heard some rather fine systems. The bottom line (for me) is that the quietest automotive interior is still to noisy to enjoy uncompressed classical music during quiet passages. For music with a more limited dynamic range, a great automotive stereo can sound wonderful (but I still think you have to listen at too loud a level.) I spend two hours a day in obnoxious commuter traffic and listening at loud levels just amps up my stress hormones :cuss: But hey, that's just my problem.
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I agree on the classical, I never listen to it in my car.
Gotta have music in heavy traffic (except when I don't know where I'm going).
Lin
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Thanks guys
But maybe those tubes are spec'd for cold. Minus 30 farenheit kinda cold. I wonder if regular household stereo tubes are spec'd like that?. Don't know, just wondering. .
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Would the tubes not break in below zero cold do you think?
No, think about all the electronics equipment that used tubes before the invention of solid state components. People didn't just use that equipment in warm weather!!!! You can buy cryogenically treated tubes today and that is much more severe than any weather you will encounter.
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A tube filament operates at a fairly high temperature. "Cold" ambient temperature is more likely to extend tube life than the other way around, I would suspect.
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Went waaaay down this road in the '90's when I was competing in IASCA sound quality competitions and was sponsored by Sony and Kicker. Component quality IS important, but installation is far more important. Before DSP was widely used in car audio, the key to a good soundstage was getting the distances between the left and right speakers in the front stage closer to the same. Thus, many of the cars went to custom made pods in the kick panels.
This still didn't equalize the distance, but it made a huge step in the right direction. My top end Sony head unit and EQ in 1996 didn't use rca's...it was all fiber optic because electrical noise can be a bigger issue than road noise. Between (fasten your seat belts) playing with phasing of the front stage drivers and a judicious amount of time delay, you could create a wide, deep stage with a center in the middle of your dash. The experience was quite a bit like a really good desktop (nearfield) system with the exception that bass in a car will spoil you for a long time. (flat to below 20hz is not hard to do)
I miss those days, but I don't miss laying upside down under the dash. I'll leave that to younger guys.
Hibuck....
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Bob in St. Louis has posted this beast before: Panasonic CQ-TX5500D
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/03/17/panasonic-vacuum-tube-car-stereo_5965.jpg)
Not sure if it is still available or not.
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Pioneer also has an "Audiophile grade" line billed as "Stage 4".
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Stage4
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Custom speaker pods. Check!
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Honda%20Accord/Stereo/b9a22df3.jpg)
Went waaaay down this road in the '90's when I was competing in IASCA sound quality competitions and was sponsored by Sony and Kicker. Component quality IS important, but installation is far more important. Before DSP was widely used in car audio, the key to a good soundstage was getting the distances between the left and right speakers in the front stage closer to the same. Thus, many of the cars went to custom made pods in the kick panels.
This still didn't equalize the distance, but it made a huge step in the right direction. My top end Sony head unit and EQ in 1996 didn't use rca's...it was all fiber optic because electrical noise can be a bigger issue than road noise. Between (fasten your seat belts) playing with phasing of the front stage drivers and a judicious amount of time delay, you could create a wide, deep stage with a center in the middle of your dash. The experience was quite a bit like a really good desktop (nearfield) system with the exception that bass in a car will spoil you for a long time. (flat to below 20hz is not hard to do)
I miss those days, but I don't miss laying upside down under the dash. I'll leave that to younger guys.
Hibuck....
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Looks like "Qforms". I remember when they came out.
I was a beta tester for the VW Jetta unit. No offense if they are
hand laid fiberglass and body putty overlaid with vinyl.
Hibuck...
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They are Qform but custom sealed inside with fiber glass making them sealed and solid! It matched the interior plastic well. I experimented with tweeters in the pods but the sound seems like it was coming from below the dash. Lots of experimentation to get the sound exactly what I like. Once the tweeters were correctly positioned above (stealth) imaging has improved tremendously.
Believe it or not they go pretty low, I don't need a subwoofer with my setup.
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Honda%20Accord/Stereo/IMG_3412.jpg)
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Honda%20Accord/Stereo/IMG_3208.jpg)
Looks like "Qforms". I remember when they came out.
I was a beta tester for the VW Jetta unit. No offense if they are
hand laid fiberglass and body putty overlaid with vinyl.
Hibuck...
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my car system is kinda what started me on my path to true audiophile quality gear at home.
my philosophy at the time was that if i couldn't afford to gear up audiophile quality at home i should at least try and get a decent sound out of my car.
i drive a toyota corolla '99 hatch and decked it out with-
- alpine HU with USB / ipod connection in glovebox
- boston acoustic SR60 front splits
- boston 2 channel amp (now replaced with rockford fosgate punch 2 channel amp) driving splits
- alpine type-R 12" sub
- alpine 1000w monoblock driving sub
the sound is amazing. i don't claim to be any sort of audiophile expert and know not a lot about what an audiophile might consider amazing but i do know music. music is my life and the music sounds incredible.
i have been meaning to do the dampening thing but have never got around to it and never really bothered as it sounds decent as is. have also been meaning to look at possibility of adding an external USB DAC / processor into the setup but never really looked into it. has anyone else tried this?
eventually i got sick of only having quality audio in the car so bit the bullet and $9000 later i now have quality gear at home. in comparison, my car only cost approx $1500-$2000 to gear up and though the home audio experience far exceeds what the car can do, bang for buck factor the rolla upgrade was a worthy upgrade. don't think i'll ever sell the car and it should drive forever like corollas do.
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