Output-Input impedance Matching

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kristian85

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Output-Input impedance Matching
« on: 29 Oct 2003, 10:14 pm »
Hello,

Thanks for the previous informative replies to my questions. I do want to ask one more:

What is the exact relationship between source and amp impedances?

I understand that lower source impedances are preferred, and the lower the better.

I understand there is a minimum desired amp impedance of around 10K Ohm, but is there a maximum?  Is higher better?

Thanks!

Kristian Soholm

John Chapman

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Output-Input impedance Matching
« Reply #1 on: 30 Oct 2003, 01:55 am »
Hello!

No problem with the questions - all good ones!

The way a tranformer handles impedances is one of it's bigest advantages. In many ways it behaves electrically more like an active pre-amp with an easy load for the source and a low output impedance driving your amp. I'll take your questions one at a time:

>>What is the exact relationship between source and amp impedances?

The output impedance of the pre-amp is a measure of how well it will drive your amp's input impedance. A lower output impedance means more current drive to your amp.

The output impedance is a bit complex to calculate exactly but the rule of thumb is that the source impedance divided by the square of the turns ratio at that volume setting gives the output impedance - or at least thats the basic relationship.

The turns ratio is the number of turns on the primary of the transformer divided by the number of turns on the secondary (at that volume setting). As you turn down the level the turns ratio quickly becomes high the square of that number becomes very high.  This means that as the level is turned down the output impedance gets lower. The fact it is related to the SQUARE of the turns ratio means it goes down very fast so after a few steps from the top volume the tx102 starts to display a quite low output impedance.

Hope I did not get too techie! There is a chart at S&B's info page showing output impedance at each step:

http://www.stevens-billington.co.uk/page102.htm

Note that this is with an unusually high source impedance of 1K ohms. Most all sources will display output impedances significantly lower than those shown in the chart.

> I understand that lower source impedances are preferred, and the >lower the better.

Although lower is better beyond a certain point it becomes academic so I don't recomend searching out sources with very low output impedances specifically. The table at S&B's site linked above shows input impedance of the tx102  and you can see it is quite high and an easy load for most any source. Other factors between sources will have more influences on the sound quality of your system than the sources output impedance. A general rule is to keep it below about 1K and almost all commercially availiable sources are lower than this - most much lower. I use an Audio Note Dac and have many customers with Audio Note dacs or players. These have output impedances on the high side but present no problems for the tx102.


> I understand there is a minimum desired amp impedance of around >10K Ohm, but is there a maximum? Is higher better?

Just like the output impedance of the source this 'higher amp impedance is better' is a general rule but don't pick an amp just for that spec. Other factors will dwarf the affect of input impedance. I have gone lower than 10K on my test gear with fine results and I have some customers running under 10K (and right around 10K) with no problems. Anything from 10K up or so is fine. There is no maximum. Typical amp input impedance values are from about 20K to 100K.

The source impedance enters into this as well. A typical source may not have any problems driving a low impedance amp with the tx102 in between but a really high source impedance AND a very low input impedance amp may not be a good combo. These kind of mixes are really hard to put together and almost all gear works out just fine.


Hope this helps!

Thanks!

John

Romy the Cat

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Output-Input impedance Matching
« Reply #2 on: 31 Oct 2003, 04:07 am »
It is interesting that when we begin to pursue the “exactness” and satellites then many other variables pop up to the picture. The results of the correct calculation and loading of one trans will not necessary will the optimum solution to another trans (of course with the identical gain) The distinction between their load will be not the typical distinction between the different transforms but actually the different loading demand. This is freaky but in a context of a sensitive system, understanding of the benefit of loading and an ability to discriminate and to interpret the result even the different topologies of the phonocorectors would require the different loading. Take different topology-wise phonostages (passive RC, passive RL, active different type of negative feedbacks, active positive feedbacks… and so in) with the identical input impedance and capacitance and flip them aganst a well-tuned arm. Try to cancel out the differences in Sound between those phonostage and pay attention only to the loading demands (it sometime very difficult to subtract the masking effects but it doable if you know what to listen) They all will demand the different optimum load and … believe you or not even the different optimum VTA.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

John Chapman

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Output-Input impedance Matching
« Reply #3 on: 31 Oct 2003, 06:59 pm »
Hello!

Thanks Romy. True that loading opens up the oportunity to dial the system in. I especially find this to be the case when talking about phono stage loading in the context of step-up transformers.

Noticed that I kind of dove right into the techie stuff when I first replied to you Kristian85 - sorry if that was not the right way to reply. Please let me know what kind of details you were after and I will do my best to clarify. I am not the best writer by any means!

Thansk!

John Chapman
www.bentaudio.com

Romy the Cat

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Output-Input impedance Matching
« Reply #4 on: 1 Nov 2003, 04:50 am »
Loading amps is very big and hugely underused issues. (I have learned it running a multi-amp system and being able changing the loading ratio for the different amps: here is where the filed for a loading impact!). In case of the cartridge, trans, phono everything is even more complex and less settled.

I am not after any details. I brought my point in order to any civilized and a capable to think reader (no mater how few of them are in present at this forum) were able to realized that in majority cases when they see the overwhelmed form own importants audio idiots (official and none official reviewers) who spread their moronic wisdom about a performance of the different arms, cartridges or phonostages then, most of the time, they deal with VERY accidental result. An analog reproduction lives in the satellites and to get verifying done correct is way belong any reviewing intention or capacities.
 
I have stressed in past a point that there are no good commercially available phonostages out there. In addition, there are very few out there analog systems that are properly loaded, tuned and calibrated in perspective of the arm, cartridge, trans, phonostage… not to mention that there are no good trans out there as well as no seriously performing contemporary heavy arms.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat