The "new" deck

thunderbrick · « **on:** 12 Jun 2016, 03:31 am »

Thanks to all who provided suggestions and decking board options. Now it begins... It'll be two weeks before the wife gets home and we look at decking samples. Together.

~~Not patient enough~~ Too damned stubborn to wait I decided to start on deck structure with the son-in-law, rebuilding it as it stands in preparation for the eventual decking. And the plan is to replace ALL the structural pieces while leaving the decking in place.

This deck is some 40 years old and was installed in full compliance with building codes in the Ozarks of the time, which means nothing is right. Found two beams that veered off by 1 1/2" in just 8 feet. No damned wonder the deck boards were all screwed up.

Joists 4' (yes, four FEET) on center. Joist hangers filled with whatever lumber they had on hand, and held to the joints with as many 16p nails as they could find.

Double 2x12 beams not even nailed to each other, and massive cracks in one.

Since the job'd involve removing old structural beams last night I built 2x12x19 beams in the A/C comfort of the basement (DAMN they are heavy! Gotta be close to 175 lbs!). We installed a bunch of support posts to take the load and cut up the end beam, then attached shelves to the end of two joists, slid the new beam up and on to the shelves, flipped it up on edge and screwed it to the joints.

To our our utter amazement it all went according to plan.

We added more 4x4 supports around the center beam and slid the new one on top the deck. Next stage is to remove the center deck boards and beam, drop another new one in, secure it, then install 2x8 joists 16" O.C. between the new beams. All of this with the deck boards still in place. If we hadn't had evening obligations we might have gotten all that done in a day.

Now, where'd I put those muscle relaxants?

ArthurDent · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 04:00 am »

You've been a busy beaver 'brick. Interesting configuration on the original construction. Looks like you are well on the way to a safe & proper renovation. Nice to have the extra pair of hands, and scaffold for assistance. Keep us posted.

Peter J · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 04:48 am »

Looking good, Thunder. Check the span recs on the decking you plan to use. I don't think it's common anymore, but years ago some recommended 12" span to prevent sagging between joists. One easy thing you can do to extend life of framing is "roof" the joists with something like Vycor. It keeps rain from getting between your built-up joist and will self heal where you dirve fasteners through. One can use building paper, but the peel & stick is easier to keep in place and seals fasteners better.

https://gcpat.com/construction/en-us/residential-building-materials/Vycor-Plus

Folsom · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 08:09 am »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 12 Jun 2016, 03:31 am

Now, where'd I put those muscle relaxants?

You used them all at Christmas.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 12 Jun 2016, 08:09 am

You used them all at Christmas.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 01:57 pm »

Quote from: Peter J on 12 Jun 2016, 04:48 am

Looking good, Thunder. Check the span recs on the decking you plan to use. I don't think it's common anymore, but years ago some recommended 12" span to prevent sagging between joists. One easy thing you can do to extend life of framing is "roof" the joists with something like Vycor. It keeps rain from getting between your built-up joist and will self heal where you dirve fasteners through. One can use building paper, but the peel & stick is easier to keep in place and seals fasteners better.

https://gcpat.com/construction/en-us/residential-building-materials/Vycor-Plus

That's a helluva good idea, Pete! Thanks!

Going 16" O.C. in accordance with manufacturer's guidance, though 12" is not a bad idea. I always say, when in doubt, overbuild.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 03:54 pm »

I did 12" spacing when we redid our deck. Only 18 feet wide so a pretty small cost delta and the added stiffness works well with the Trex.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 04:19 pm »

Has anyone used hidden fasteners? Advice?

Peter J · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 05:35 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 12 Jun 2016, 04:19 pm

Has anyone used hidden fasteners? Advice?

Opinion really, you can take what you want of it for advice.

More trouble than they're worth unless one is doing a showcase deck. The best use some sort of edge groove and toe screw arrangement. The specialty screws for composite decking (take your pick) are simple and effective. They allow some fudging here and there spacing-wise and allow replacement of single boards should you need to. You know what I mean... damage caused from the visiting relatives' wonky dogs or perhaps their careless housekeeping habits.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 05:39 pm »

Agreed, Pete, but I'm responsible for structures. The administration has authority over aesthetics.

rajacat · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 05:47 pm »

Quote from: Peter J on 12 Jun 2016, 05:35 pm

Opinion really, you can take what you want of it for advice.

More trouble than they're worth unless one is doing a showcase deck. The best use some sort of edge groove and toe screw arrangement. The specialty screws for composite decking (take your pick) are simple and effective. They allow some fudging here and there spacing-wise and allow replacement of single boards should you need to. You know what I mean... damage caused from the visiting relatives' wonky dogs or perhaps their careless housekeeping habits.

+1

thunderbrick · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 05:53 pm »

I've seen TimberTech samples with the grooves down the sides and am skeptical for just those reasons mentioned. I was thinking some brackets underneath where you screw UP into the boards. Best of both worlds if you don't count the $$$ involved.....

Peter J · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 05:54 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 12 Jun 2016, 05:39 pm

Agreed, Pete, but I'm responsible for structures. The administration has authority over aesthetics.

Well, you could use the argument that it looks more traditional and organic to have exposed fasteners and see how that flies. The best administrations are malleable with proper influence.

You can get color matched screw heads that really aren't bad looking at all. I think the hidden fasteners are more of a sell than anything. Have you ever stood on someone's deck and said to yourself, "there's no visible fasteners"?

Peter J · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:02 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 12 Jun 2016, 05:53 pm

I've seen TimberTech samples with the grooves down the sides and am skeptical for just those reasons mentioned. I was thinking some brackets underneath where you screw UP into the boards. Best of both worlds if you don't count the $$$ involved.....

You're almost sure to hate the screw-from-below concept after a few boards. You're depending on the decking itself for screw retention and you can't use longer screw if you hog out a hole. All the composites I've worked with sucked at holding screws. They just don't have good thread holding cell structure like wood or steel.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:12 pm »

Yeah, I see a lot of little clips that attach to the boards, and they look a little toy-like. Lexan? Seriously? Years ago I remember stainless strips that attached to the joists, and you sent screws up through that. Not finding that so far.

I would prefer 2x deck boards as they'd fit perfectly under my patio door lip. I don't see 2x boards in Timbertech.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:21 pm »

Hidden fasteners are a pita. Never again. Give me some nice coated exterior screws any day. It does look nice but I found them not to hold all that well and eventually you will have to put one through a board and you've blown the whole look.

Peter J · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:22 pm »

They're still around.

http://www.grabberman.com/CatBrowser.aspx?pkey=sKT%2fW5%2bT14JjDgMJa8D6LZ1dZKMJMbII9k98PNCN8%2fU%3d&pval=oj3Wj32k0KoohYhOpCq8%2fg%3d%3d&pIds=bTt%2fqrDlbuPJAFwFI99Ui1dj%2f8fHfhHQrwBRjpPu54Q%3d

http://www.suredrive.com/products/BROWSE_BRAND/SURE_DRIVE/HIDDEN_DECK_FASTENERS.aspx

2X material is harder to find and $$. 5/4 is largely what the industry offers now.

srb · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:30 pm »

When you have to replace a grooved board with hidden fasteners, you need to make two saw cuts the length of the board to remove it, then when you toe-screw the replacement board back in you're most often nicking the corner edge of the adjacent board.

Nothing beats a good quality deck screw straight into the joist. I would just sell it on that not so subtle structural superiority and ease of replacement.

Steve

rajacat · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Jun 2016, 06:48 pm »

A wood deck allows you to plug the screw holes to add a touch of elegance. On my epay/ Bankerai deck, I used stainless steel trim head screws but if I were do it again, I'd use countersunk flat head deck screws and plugged them. It would've looked nicer and been stronger although the trim heads haven't given me any problems over the years. They're just a PITA to work with.

ctviggen · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jun 2016, 08:19 pm »

I don't know if I could have a deck that didn't have hidden fasteners. We're going to do our deck in a few years, and I hope to use some type of hidden fastener system.