[mhconley]

Exactly my point. The DX7 is still $500. From an 'objective' POV are the features/performance of a $500 dac audibly superior to any of the many $100-150 options? If so, where are the double blind tests to prove it? Seems to me by the logic of this way of thinking, that would be an additional $250 to upgrade headphones even further. Better yet, buy a cheap preamp with tone controls, sell the expensive headphones, get some $50 headphones and use the tone controls (or software equalizer depending on the source). Now that's even more money saved.

But that's assuming one actually follows through on the objectivist/measurement based premise.

I know from online hearing tests I cannot consistently detect distortion differences below about -90dB so I’m sure I would not be able to tell the difference between many less expensive / lesser performing DACs and headphone amps. I bought the best I could within my constraints and budget. If I had the money I’d buy Benchmark or Chord products, if I didn’t I’d be perfectly happy with JDS Labs or Geshelli products. I like ASR because it puts objective numbers out that one can use in conjunction with all the subjective reviews.

Audio is a very personal experience and we like what we like whether it measures well of not. 

Martin

[rollo]

If people can't hear the difference, good for them.  They can just buy the cheapest option and merrily go on their way.

  Agreed and leave us to our hearing. 


charles

[ketchup]

ASR is weird.  The admin absolutely trashed a well known DAC because it didn't measure good, but he never even listened to it!  WTF?  I think someone actually asked if it sounded as bad as it measured and he ignored the question.  All I can figure is that he didn't listen to it because he would probably then have to admit that it didn't sound bad, essentially indicating that measurements don't mean anything (or very little).  Doing that would prove that he's totally wasting his time testing all that gear.

[Letitroll98]

I don't hate that site or the guy who runs it.  And most of you are aware that I'm pretty subjectivist.  It's a nice survey of measured performance, nothing to take too seriously, but being free and an easily navigated site (you don't get beat to death with ads) why not.  I would give the results some consideration as a factor, but far from a determining one.

[DaveC113]

ASR is weird.  The admin absolutely trashed a well known DAC because it didn't measure good, but he never even listened to it!  WTF?  I think someone actually asked if it sounded as bad as it measured and he ignored the question.  All I can figure is that he didn't listen to it because he would probably then have to admit that it didn't sound bad, essentially indicating that measurements don't mean anything (or very little).  Doing that would prove that he's totally wasting his time testing all that gear.

I wouldn't believe most of what he says or measures and I don't trust his subjective judgments either... I remember writing about a particular room at RMAF a few years ago, saying they were the best at RMAF, Amir tried to say the opposite and everything he mentioned was an effect of the room, it seemed he was incapable of separating the sound of the system from room acoustic issues.

[RonN5]

It would seem that there may be two types of audiophiles...those that care about the sound and those that care about the measurements.

For those that care about the sound...listen first and if it sounds good, never measure.  If it sounds bad, then maybe measure...or just skip the measurements and try something else.

For those that care about the measurements...measure first...and then never buy.  Save your money since the sound doesn't matter and its just a matter of time until something measures better.

[rollo]

ASR is weird.  The admin absolutely trashed a well known DAC because it didn't measure good, but he never even listened to it!  WTF?  I think someone actually asked if it sounded as bad as it measured and he ignored the question.  All I can figure is that he didn't listen to it because he would probably then have to admit that it didn't sound bad, essentially indicating that measurements don't mean anything (or very little).  Doing that would prove that he's totally wasting his time testing all that gear.

   Measurements are not an issue in listening. Voicing however is. However think about that. The Engineer still measures what he needs to know to "Voice" the component. In doing so he may trade a better spec for better sound. Part of the design process for any company.
   Two spectacular sounding DACs were reviewed in a well known Magazine. One unit sold over 1,000 units and was put down because of its measurement results. The other a State of the Art affair was a Class "A" DAC that sounds spectacular same thing it was called out for some measurements. Two other Magazines called it stellar in every way.
   For my personal requirement the component must have proper tonality, harmonic structure, linear with distortion level below my hearing ability. Let the Designers do their thing and I will do mine listen to it in my system do decide on a purchase. That easy.

charles

[mhconley]

I would say the two types of audiophiles are those that listen to music and those that listen to equipment.

I listen to music.

[wushuliu]

It would seem that there may be two types of audiophiles...those that care about the sound and those that care about the measurements.

I think it's people who care about the sound, people who care about both measurements and sound, and people who say they care about measurements but really just define themselves by what people who only care about sound like.

I started out as a straight-shooter measurement type way back when. Then I realized the logic of their suggestions and recommendations never followed through as I mentioned in the previous post. And after that I realized they spent way more time talking about 'audiophools', denigrating, and insulting other people who share the hobby to the point of obsessiveness, day in, day out, year after year.

There's nothing science-based about that.

At that point I knew I was on the wrong track and focused on doing the best I can to experiment and judge for myself.

I'll sum it up this way: Instead of a $100k Klippel tester, guys like Amir/Archimago/NwWavguy could have at any time put together a kickstarter to fund research/blind-testing to prove us audiophools wrong. They could easily raise tons of money from their fervent fanbase who want nothing better than to drink subjectivist tears. They could have partnered with a university or research group or 'insert objectivist audio company here' to produce proper results that would stand the same scrutiny they consistently level at everyone else as well as being eligible for publication.

They could do this at any time. Any time.

But they don't. Because it's not about actual science-based discussion. It's about tribalism, clicks, views, and likes.

[DaveC113]

There are many shades of grey and it's the same with most things... Are you going to spring for a $5k OLED or a $500 LED TV? A $5k espresso machine or a $50 drip machine? Folgers or $50/lb specialty beans? A $500 bottle of wine or $5?...

[smargo]

But glittering prizes, and endless compromises,
shatter the illusion of integrity!!

Don

i love this quote - really says it all

[wushuliu]

There are many shades of grey and it's the same with most things... Are you going to spring for a $5k OLED or a $500 LED TV? A $5k espresso machine or a $50 drip machine? Folgers or $50/lb specialty beans? A $500 bottle of wine or $5?...

Sorry Dave you make your own cables, so of course you'd say that 

Btw, I'm making my own cables now. No fancy foolery needed:



Thinking the tag line will be "Stiffer is better", but I'm open to suggestions.

[wushuliu]

i love this quote - really says it all

Yes, well played, Endo...

[DaveC113]

Sorry Dave you make your own cables, so of course you'd say that 

Sorry, I don't understand how making my own cables has anything do do with what I posted? However, I understand many are trying to make a connection however possible, as if every second of my life is spent trying to promote my business and every way I see the world is filtered through the lens of trying to sell something. I can assure you that point of view is completely misguided, and pointing this out to folks is tedious.

The point is, some folks care more or less about different things. For example, I care about audio yet bought a mid-line TV, I have an espresso machine yet no desire to spend big $ on wine, etc... it's all about personal choice and what you value.

[wushuliu]

Sorry, I don't understand how making my own cables has anything do do with what I posted?

I was joking, hence the 'razz' emoji.

[A_shah]

Sorry Dave you make your own cables, so of course you'd say that 

Btw, I'm making my own cables now. No fancy foolery needed:



Thinking the tag line will be "Stiffer is better", but I'm open to suggestions.

I am a big fan of Amir it is GR8 to have good measurements but at the end of the day I'll take  a unit whose measurements are less than steller but sounds music to my ears.
As far as Dave cables are concerned , despite having some small difference with Dave on very small issues his cables are very very good , I went through extensive testing of cables in my system and found that different cable different geometry and different materials do sound different at least to my ears .Daves cables are 3 D holographic , sure they are expensive but their are more expensive cables out their and I am sure the cost material on these cables probably is 1/10 the price of these cables , basically we are paying for labour , technique, and knowledge  that goes into making these cables and in some  manufacturers case one  is paying   for advertising ," paid   reviews" , marketing , etc IN case of  Dave  he is very generous and sends out cables for review at his own expense one has to give him credit for that 

Asghar

[wushuliu]

I am a big fan of Amir it is GR8 to have good measurements but at the end of the day I'll take  a unit whose measurements are less than steller but sounds music to my ears.
As far as Dave cables are concerned , despite having some small difference with Dave on very small issues his cables are very very good , I went through extensive testing of cables in my system and found that different cable different geometry and different materials do sound different at least to my ears .Daves cables are 3 D holographic , sure they are expensive but their are more expensive cables out their and I am sure the cost material on these cables probably is 1/10 the price of these cables , basically we are paying for labour , technique, and knowledge  that goes into making these cables and in some  manufacturers case one  is paying   for advertising ," paid   reviews" , marketing , etc IN case of  Dave  he is very generous and sends out cables for review at his own expense one has to give him credit for that 

Asghar

I like Dave's posts. I like his cables (even though I haven't heard them, but I trust his judgement in use of materials).

I repeat: I like Dave's posts. I like his cables. Post was a joke in line with topic at hand.

[wushuliu]

I'll share this last observation in this thread before moving on as I know I've gone on at length, but I think it's relevant:

On another forum, that recently fancies itself to be more sylish than it once was, a rare thing happened. There was a discussion about DACs and blind testing and audible differences. There was the usual back and forth, staking the usual positions, etc. Well at some point during the discussion one member proposed to an opposing member hey would you be willing to do a dac blind test with me. The other member lived not that far away and amazingly, agreed.

The two members proceeded to plan out the testing, arranging all the steps to safeguard best practice and results as best as they could manage. In the meantime debate raged on, assumptions, guesses, and suggestions were volleyed around as one would expect. So.

The day of the testing finally came around. The whole thing went as planned, with no major hiccups that I recall. The outcome: the subject was able to accurately discern differences a majority of the time. The testing member admitted he wasn't expecting that but was transparent about the process and supported the subject's results. This kind of co-operation, at least in this hobby, is extremely rare IMO and it was really fascinating. The response once the results were announced?

No one really cared.

There were a few posts of acknowledgement, but then the conversation immediately reverted back to discussing minutiae, personal philosophies and the back and forth resumed. The two guys put in a lot of work, despite their opposing viewpoints and all they got was a collective 'meh'.

I learned a lot from that.

Off to enjoy some vinyl. My DAC days are taking a holiday.

Have a great weekend folks.

[bacobits1]

You can see the OCB on a lot of these sites .It's entertaining.

[JLM]

Audiophiles live to be entertained, which is very subjective.  Yet most audiophiles have technical backgrounds, thus we delve into the design and measurements.  This makes for an interesting mix.  Back in the 70's at my small college we had a classical guitarist drop in and offer a free concert.  Wow was he impressive!  He wanted to know why technically minded folks seemed to be so strongly drawn to music.  Is it the inherent math built into music, or a release from the analytical side of our brain?  I dunno.  Just food for thought. 

The subjective can lead one very astray.  Measurements offer a baseline standard and are more valuable than gauging from the marketplace or the preponderance of internet comments.  The challenge is to determine what measurements are meaningful and at what levels?  That's where the Audio Engineering Society comes in.  Unfortunately it is not very accessible for everyday audiophiles (a full set is $1000 USD for non-members).