questions for curt (some MB-250)

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vpolineni

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questions for curt (some MB-250)
« on: 1 May 2003, 02:18 am »
hey curt,
   I have a couple of questions for you.  The first one addresses the new IR remote control system written about at your website.  You write that "This versatile new IR remote control system can easily be adapted to control any new IRD component with only minor hardware and firmware revisions."  I'm wondering if a remote control can be put with the llc-p for I really like the llc-p.  I don't need some of the features that the llc-s will offer such as the phono cartridge.  I have thiel cs3.6 speakers and I need a dead quet preamp for it.  the llc-p seems to be the ideal preamp but I really want a remote.  is this possible?
    my second question deals with the upcoming mb-250.  will these be stable at 2 0 ohms (which the cs3.6 dip down to frequently)  Also, will these double in wattage as you halve the ohms?  that would mean it would put out 250 watts at 8 ohms, 500 watts at 4 ohms (which cs3.6 are nominal at) and 1000 watts at 2 ohms.  You posted a price of 800 dollars for them.  Is this price for a pair of monoblocks or for both monoblocks? Finally, I know you're a busy guy, but I'm wondering if you have any tentative time table for when these will be available to purchase.  Thank you very much for taking the time to read this.

Curt

questions for curt (some MB-250)
« Reply #1 on: 1 May 2003, 11:54 am »
Hi vpolineni, thanks for your interest.

The new IR remote can easily be designed into any future IRD product (during the design stage) with only minor changes but, it can not be added-on to an existing product. My original wording, on our website, may have been misleading.

I have revised the website news entry to reflect the above statement.

IR remote control can not be added to the LLC-P because it would require many changes including: a complete new PCB layout; loss of the ladder step attenuator rotary switch (would need to go to relay controlled volume); additional PCB for microprocessor control circuit; new front steel panel; new faceplate with IR window... I think you get my meaning.

Sabai will be very quiet (very similar to the Purist) and you don't need to use the phono stage. You may do just fine with Sabai and I'm sure the Thiel's will love Sabai.

*****

The MB-250 amplifier question will be answered in a following post, since it may be a bit long.

Curt

questions for curt (some MB-250)
« Reply #2 on: 2 May 2003, 09:16 pm »
Hi here's the other half of your answer...


RE: Your MB-250 monoblock questions

Yes, the MB-250 is stable during 2 ohm dips, it is a high current output design.

We recommend the MB-250 for 8/4 ohm loudspeakers with dips as low as 2 ohms.

Not many loudspeakers dip below 2.5 ohms (none that I know of). I believe the Thiel's only dip to 2.5 ohms.

The concept of amplifier output power doubling at each halving of the load impedance is sometimes misunderstood and most timed over rated. The 8/4/2 specs you mention sound good but rarely ever hold true.

Mathematically (E=IR) @45V it would be: 45/8*45= 253W @8ohms; 45/4*45= 506W @4ohms; 45/2*45= 1012W @2ohms. It does look good but, in reality power doubling usually doesn't happen at 2 ohms.

A very good amplifier (the more expensive high-end models) will double the output power from 8 to 4 ohms but, generally fall short at 2 ohms.

Most amplifiers today will not even double the output power from 8 to 4 ohms. Many of the manufacturers simply feel it just is not worth the trade offs.


-> The concept usually fails due to these trade offs:

   1. cost & size of the required power supply
   2. the required number of output transistors


#1 Power supply

For a 250W amplifier to follow the halving rule to 2 ohms the power supply would need to be more than 2X the maximum output power. For 1000W output @ 2ohms the supply would need to be more than 2000W. This would be very expensive and large.

Why 2X? Because output stages are not 100% efficient, a class B is about 50% a class A/B about 40-50% and a class A is usually 40-50%.

Using a class B output stage (very popular) and putting in 2000W in you get 50% or 1000W out.

There are also more losses that I'm simply neglecting for simplification.

Therefore, the power supply would need to be 2000+ Watts per channel!


#2 number of output transistors

Each transistor can output only so many watts, the limit is a thermal one (how hot the transistor gets) and is set by the transistor spec, package size, and heat sink.

Popular transistors can output 60-150W (different types) continuous. So, 1000W output/100W (an average transistor) is about 10 transistors for the positive half cycle and 10 for the negative half of the cycle or, 20 transistors total. This is required to double the power to 2 ohms!

FYI w/100W transistor: 250W=6Trans; 500W=10Trans; 1000W=20Trans

Matching the transistor gains and minimizing crossover distortions, would be a difficult if not impossible job with 20 transistors. This could easily produce a harsh, grainy, brite sounding amplifier.

This is why many professional reviewers (i.e. Stereophile) say the lower power SS amplifiers usually sound better than high power models.


Here is How the MB-250 design looks today:

The MB-250 monoblock uses 10 output transistors. This will produce a cool 500W and require a power supply of 1000+ W.

We use an oversized power supply (as usual) of 1600W. It has a 36 Lb shielded toroidal power transformer and large filter caps (100,000uF [1CH]). This supply and the output transistors used will allow 800Wmax output music peaks at low load impedance dips.


More information and specs will be available on our website as we continue the MB-250s development.

It is a monoblock with an estimated selling price of US$800 each. This price could change at release time. Two MB-250s will be required for stereo applications. The target release date is 4th quarter 2003.

Thank you for your interest and we hope to hear from you when the MB-250s are ready.